Clause 8

Eli Mazour
  • 5.0 (49)
  • Careers
  • Biweekly

Clause 8 is the long-form IP podcast hosted by Eli Mazour, featuring conversations with the people and forces shaping the patent system. Its audience includes sophisticated in-house counsel, judges, IP policymakers, senior USPTO officials, patent dealmakers, and leading practitioners. The show is designed to help listeners stay ahead of the curve by understanding not just the latest patent developments, but the personalities, incentives, and institutions behind them. Clause 8 features conversations that provide strategic insight into patent law, policy, innovation, licensing, and other issues affecting the IP community. Past guests have included major American innovators, federal judges, USPTO Directors, senior IP staff on Capitol Hill, in-house leaders, patent dealmakers — and Carole Baskin’s attorney from Tiger King. Law360 featured Clause 8 first in its 2026 list of “5 Podcasts to Keep IP Attys Entertained and Informed,” describing its guests as “a bit of a who’s who of IP law.” Clause 8 has also been covered or cited by Bloomberg, Courthouse News Service, Above the Law, IAM, Original Jurisdiction, and other publications. www.voiceofip.com

  1. 3d ago

    “Nobody Won Until I Won”: Perry Saidman, the Godfather of Design Law

    Perry Saidman passed away on October 15, 2026, less than a month after we recorded this conversation. Perry built the market for design patents. His win in Avia v. LA Gear, a sneaker knockoff case, helped prove design patents could be enforced. He co-founded and led the firm that became Sterne Kessler, then left in 1990 to start Saidman DesignLaw Group, the first firm in the country dedicated to design patents. In this episode: - How a sneaker knockoff, and his best deposition, put design patents on the map - Founding what became Sterne Kessler, and why he walked away - How Apple v. Samsung did more for design patents than 22 years of his marketing - Claiming the "DNA" of a product, and the appendix "trick of the trade" - Why the wrong design patents end up litigated - Range of Motion and the Egyptian Goddess sentence he called "a gift to infringers" - "Specialize, specialize, specialize," and leaving the top of the mountain Clause 8 is sponsored by: Junior AI (http://docs.junior.law/) - Your legal team's documents, drafted in your team's style. IP Copilot (https://ipcopilot.ai/) - Discover, manage, and protect your IP. Chapters 00:00:00 The Avia shoe case and how he got into design patents  00:04:12 Creating the market for design patents  00:07:24 Founding the firm that became Sterne Kessler, and why he left  00:22:00 Apple v. Samsung and where companies should start  00:29:41 Design patent strategy: functionality, solid lines, the appendix and GUIs  00:41:43 LKQ, examination and common mistakes  00:50:01 Egyptian Goddess and Range of Motion  00:55:22 Replacement parts, advice for lawyers and finding a niche  01:04:05 Leaving the top of the mountain This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    “Nobody Won Until I Won”: Perry Saidman, the Godfather of Design Law

  2. Oct 13

    Coke Morgan Stewart Tells Her Story

    When Coke Morgan Stewart became acting director of the USPTO, much of the patent world knew little about her. In this episode of Clause 8, Stewart, now President and CEO of the Council for Innovation Promotion (C4IP), sits down with host Eli Mazour to tell her own story and explain the how and why behind her decisions. Clause 8 is presented by:Junior AI - Your legal team’s documents, drafted in your team’s style.IP Copilot - Discover, manage, and protect your IP. In this episode: - Her path from English literature to the acting director’s chair, including the video call from a cruise ship where she learned she’d be deputy director - Her father, Judge Henry Coke Morgan Jr., and the $2.75 billion Centripetal v. Cisco judgment the Federal Circuit later vacated - Her first months at the USPTO: the backlog, the hiring freeze, the “fork in the road” offer, return to office and telework - IPR institution, “settled expectations” and repeat challenges, and why she puts the odds of the proposed PTAB rules becoming final at 60/40 - The reported move by Director John Squires to return institution decisions to PTAB panels, and the pros and cons - What she’d do differently, including a workforce council, plus AI and copyright Chapters:00:00:00 Introduction: who is Coke Morgan Stewart?00:13:10 Her father’s patent cases and the Cisco stock controversy00:27:00 Becoming acting director: how she pursued the job00:37:30 The call from a cruise ship00:40:47 Day one: backlog, hiring freeze and DOGE-era turmoil00:51:35 Settled expectations and repeat challenges01:08:13 The proposed PTAB rules and the push for legislation01:17:28 Squires and institution decisions returning to PTAB panels01:33:32 What she’d do differently: a workforce council This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    Coke Morgan Stewart Tells Her Story

  3. Sep 29

    How Patent Litigation Really Moves: IAM, IP Fray, and MLex Reporters on the Year in IP

    To open the season, host Eli Mazour brings together three journalists who cover intellectual property for a living: Olivia Rafferty of IP Fray, Nisha Shetty of IAM, and Inbar Preiss of MLex. They discuss what happens when patent litigation concentrates in a few courts, from Germany's dominance at the Unified Patent Court to the rise and fall of Judge Alan Albright in Texas. They also cover consolidation in the video codec patent pool market, Europe's fight over AI and copyright (including cases involving OpenAI, Suno, and Google's Gemini), why mainstream media struggles to cover IP, and what each journalist is watching next. Clause 8 is presented by: Junior AI - Your legal team's documents, drafted in your team's style. https://junior.law P Copilot - Discover, manage, and protect your IP. https://ipcopilot.ai Chapters: 00:00 Introduction & meet the panel 00:56 How each journalist got into covering IP 07:42 The SEP regulation's rise, withdrawal, and EU court challenge 11:53 US patent policy shifting with each administration 13:40 Why most UPC cases are filed in Germany 17:08 The Judge Albright controversy 20:03 The EU's standardization regulation review 23:50 Patent pools consolidate: the Via and Access Advance merger 26:58 AI collides with copyright law 30:26 Why mainstream media struggles to cover IP 37:40 What's on the radar for next year Subscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@clause8 Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    How Patent Litigation Really Moves: IAM, IP Fray, and MLex Reporters on the Year in IP

  4. Jun 2

    Via Eyes "De Facto" Standards for Future Pools

    Kevin Mack, the new president of Via Licensing Alliance, joins Eli for the Clause 8 season finale. Kevin talks about Via's plans to build its next patent pools around "de facto" standards — technology the market adopted on its own, with no standards body behind it — which would push collaborative licensing into territory it has never touched. Mack also takes a hard look at the royalty-free models spreading through tech and AI, from AV1 to the new Shared AI License Foundation (SAIL), argues that "free" rarely stays free, and explains why he's optimistic about where the patent system is heading. Kevin and Eli also discuss: *Via's model and the "tipping point" that turns a pool from a few licensors into thousands of licensees *"De facto" standards: pooling patents for technology no standards body ever blessed *Leadership turnover at Via, the HEVC pool's move to Access Advance, and a new strategy-and-growth group *The push into semiconductors, including a new DRAM memory program *AV1, SAIL, and why Mack thinks royalty-free rarely stays free *Whether AI patents are as "foundational" as advertised — and why "AI is not new" *Efficient infringement, patents as property rights, and why companies ultimately take a license *The mood out of Via's Rome summit and a US patent system tilting back toward owners Notable names, companies & standards People: Kevin Mack (president, Via Licensing Alliance); Heath Hoglund (former Via president); John Amster (Jamster Capital; RPX co-founder) Organizations: Via Licensing Alliance (Via LA), MPEG LA, Dolby, Access Advance, Alliance for Open Media, Shared AI License Foundation (SAIL), WIPO (PatentScope), DOJ, USPTO SAIL founders / board (public): Anthropic, Genentech, IBM, Meta, Microsoft; board observers eBay and TD Bank Group; members include Block and Figma Standards & technologies: AAC, AVC (H.264), HEVC (H.265), AV1, MPEG-2, Qi wireless charging, DRAM memory, SEP / FRAND Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    Via Eyes "De Facto" Standards for Future Pools

  5. May 19

    AI Boom Calls for New Copyright Law, Says USPTO Chief Behind the DMCA

    Bruce Lehman, head of USPTO from 1993 to 1998, joins Clause 8 for a wide-ranging conversation about the modern IP system, the internet boom, and why the AI era may require a new copyright response from Congress. Lehman helped shape internet-era copyright policy from the USPTO, including the work that led to the WIPO Copyright Treaties and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA). He also played a major role in the broader 1990s pro-IP moment, when the United States was strengthening IP rights globally through TRIPS, WIPO, and trade policy. Now, Lehman argues that courts have spent the last two decades weakening copyright through an expansive view of fair use — creating a system where AI companies can train on massive amounts of human-created content without giving creators a meaningful stake. Asked whether new legislation is needed to protect creators in the AI age, Lehman does not hesitate: “The short answer is yes.” The episode also covers: *Lehman’s “patent pendulum” theory and why he believes the US is now in a low-protection IP era *How the DMCA emerged from the Clinton administration’s internet copyright work *TRIPS, WIPO, and the globalization of IP rights in the 1990s *Bayh-Dole and the rise of the university-to-startup pipeline *Lehman’s historic confirmation as the first openly gay man confirmed by the Senate *His role in turning the USPTO into a “prominent perch” for national IP policy *Gilbert Hyatt, submarine patents, and SAWS *USPTO telework, examiner retention, and modernization *His message that current leadership should “stop tormenting the Patent Corps” *The limits of AI — and why Lehman thinks it lacks the "metaphysical" spark behind true invention *Judge Pauline Newman and her pro-patent legacy Watch the full episode and read the companion post on Voice of IP: https://voiceofip.com/ Subscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@clause8 Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    AI Boom Calls for New Copyright Law, Says USPTO Chief Behind the DMCA

  6. May 5

    The AI Patent Team Alice Built Shares Its Prosecution Secrets

    When Alice came down in 2014, much of the patent prosecution bar reacted with denial. Most practitioners hoped the USPTO, the Federal Circuit, or Congress would clean things up — and that adding some magic language to claims and specifications would eventually be enough. Eli Mazour and Ngai Zhang, separately, came to a different conclusion: there had to be a new, better way to obtain strong patents in the post-Alice world. They started comparing notes more than a decade ago, eventually converged on a shared approach, and now implement these strategies together at Foley & Lardner. On this episode of Clause 8, Eli and Ngai walk through what they actually do — their unique strategies for avoiding and overcoming Section 101 issues, why it's difficult for other attorneys to implement these strategies, and how they think their practice will be impacted in the age of AI. In this episode: * Why relying only on art unit prediction tools & wordsmithing is a losing strategy for § 101 * Why claim 1 shouldn’t be your broadest claim * How taking features out of independent claims helps advance prosecution - and how the strategy also leaves clients routinely surprised by how broad their issued claims end up * Examiner interviews as hostage negotiations: Ngai’s framework based on Chris Voss’s Never Split the Difference * Differing approaches that Ngai and Eli have on whether to push for an explicit on-the-record agreement before ending an interview * AI as a collaborator for patent drafting and prosecution * The importance of human interactions and communication for patent prosecution even in the age of AI Watch the full episode and read the companion post on Voice of IP: https://voiceofip.com/ Subscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content: https://www.youtube.com/@clause8 📌 Presented by Tradespace — where ideas take flight. Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    The AI Patent Team Alice Built Shares Its Prosecution Secrets

  7. Apr 21

    Inventor Gilbert Hyatt's gift to America — will America accept it?

    President Trump and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick pride themselves on being dealmakers and on making the kind of unconventional deals for America no one else could have gotten done. Gil Hyatt is offering them one that sounds like a no-brainer. However, the question remains whether that dealmaking reputation is enough to overcome thirty years of inertia from prior administrations focused on opposing Hyatt, including most notably on keeping any more of his patents from ever issuing. Inventor Gil Hyatt returns to Clause 8 to discuss his proposal to donate foundational AI patents to the Pioneering AI Foundation, a nonprofit he says could help give the U.S. government new leverage to advance American interests. Hyatt also reflects on his decades-long battle with the USPTO, the motivation behind the foundation, and why he sees the project as a gift to America ahead of the nation’s 250th birthday. Will America accept the gift? The episode covers: * 00:23 — the ongoing battle with the USPTO * 02:44 — the Pioneering AI Foundation * 05:35 — using the ITC and trade agreements as leverage * 07:11 — human rights and labor unions: leveling the global playing field * 10:24 — AI in the classroom: the “super headstart” for children * 12:35 — relieving drudgery: AI as a catalyst for creative thinking * 14:27 — addressing skepticism: motives and financials * 16:16 — repaying the dream: the legacy of immigrant parents * 17:34 — advice for the next generation of inventors * 18:22 — final thoughts: destiny and helping America 🎧 Watch the full episode above or listen on your favorite podcast app—and subscribe to the Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content. 📌 Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight. Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    Inventor Gilbert Hyatt's gift to America — will America accept it?

  8. Apr 7

    The Hidden Costs of “Free” Patent Licensing Initiatives

    Is anything in the patent world ever really free? That question anchors a new Clause 8 conversation between host Eli Mazour and Professor Kristen Osenga, a University of Richmond law professor and one of the leading academic voices on standard essential patents. At the center of the discussion is the rise of so-called “royalty-free” technology standards. Osenga’s point is straightforward: “free” often comes with strings attached — particularly for smaller innovators that may be required to cross-license valuable patent rights or accept terms they may later regret. Her main example is the Alliance for Open Media, the tech consortium behind a “royalty-free” video compression standard. The pitch sounds simple: use the standard without paying royalties. But, as Osenga explains, the real question is what companies may be giving up in return — and whether they fully understand the long-term cost of joining. She offers a simple analogy: a store gives away free croissants to get customers in the door. Customers build habits around it. Then one day the sign changes. In Osenga’s view, the same risk exists here. Companies can build products and business models around terms that may not remain as favorable as they first appeared. From there, the discussion broadens into the wider ecosystem of royalty-free standards, cross-licensing organizations, defensive patent pledges, and emerging AI-related IP initiatives. What is driving these arrangements? Collaboration? Public relations? Strategic control? And what, exactly, should companies think through before signing on? As Osenga puts it: “Follow the money … where are these groups making their money? Because it’s probably coming from some other part of their business model.” The episode also covers: * what the pattern of withdrawals from major cross-licensing organizations reveals about how these arrangements play out over time * SEP policy whiplash across US administrations, the Standard Essential Royalties Act (SERA), and where things stand now * the EU’s proposed SEP framework, and why it stalled * the litigation funding debate, including why Osenga founded The Inventors Defense Alliance * the Tillis-Schiff letter to ANSI, China’s push to shape global standards bodies, and the implications for US innovation leadership * why Osenga believes the RESTORE Act is critical to preserving US innovation leadership It is a conversation worth sharing with anyone focused on licensing, standards, or innovation policy. 🎧 Watch the full episode above or listen on your favorite podcast app—and subscribe to the new Clause 8 YouTube channel for bonus content. 📌 Presented by Tradespace – where ideas take flight. Disclaimer This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.voiceofip.com

    The Hidden Costs of “Free” Patent Licensing Initiatives
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About

Clause 8 is the long-form IP podcast hosted by Eli Mazour, featuring conversations with the people and forces shaping the patent system. Its audience includes sophisticated in-house counsel, judges, IP policymakers, senior USPTO officials, patent dealmakers, and leading practitioners. The show is designed to help listeners stay ahead of the curve by understanding not just the latest patent developments, but the personalities, incentives, and institutions behind them. Clause 8 features conversations that provide strategic insight into patent law, policy, innovation, licensing, and other issues affecting the IP community. Past guests have included major American innovators, federal judges, USPTO Directors, senior IP staff on Capitol Hill, in-house leaders, patent dealmakers — and Carole Baskin’s attorney from Tiger King. Law360 featured Clause 8 first in its 2026 list of “5 Podcasts to Keep IP Attys Entertained and Informed,” describing its guests as “a bit of a who’s who of IP law.” Clause 8 has also been covered or cited by Bloomberg, Courthouse News Service, Above the Law, IAM, Original Jurisdiction, and other publications. www.voiceofip.com

Information

  • Creator
    Eli Mazour
  • Years Active
    2017 - 2026
  • Episodes
    105
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Voice of IP
  • Show Website
    Clause 8

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