Conversations with Institutional Investors

Investment Innovation Institute [i3]
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Conversations with Institutional Investors is your gateway to in-depth discussions with the masterminds behind leading global investment firms, including key figures from pension funds, insurance companies, and sovereign wealth funds. Our podcast explores the evolving landscape of asset allocation, portfolio construction, and investment strategy, offering you firsthand insights from industry experts to inspire smarter, more innovative investment approaches. For further insights go to i3-invest.com. You can also subscribe to our complimentary newsletter at: i3-invest.com/subscribe/

  1. 125: The Devolution of Neoliberalism – UTS Finance Department Roundtable

    12/03/2025

    125: The Devolution of Neoliberalism – UTS Finance Department Roundtable

    In this special edition of the [i3] Podcast, in collaboration with the UTS Finance Department, we explore how the neoliberal model of economics, which largely ignored politics and focused on financial metrics, has eroded over time and made way for the rise of populism, which has exerted its influence on economies around the world. Why did the guardrails that neoliberalism provided slowly disappear and what are the consequences of this? Is there any model that will replace it? Political Economist Elizabeth Humphrys, Geopolitical Specialist Philipp Ivanov and UTS Industry Lecturer Rob Prugue delve deep into this fascinating topic as part of the Circle the Square roundtable series. __________ Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on  Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights __________ Overview of Podcast 00:00 – Introduction Wouter introduces the special i3 Podcast edition, produced with UTS Finance. He outlines the episode's theme: how the post-war neoliberal guardrails that long supported economic certainty have eroded, creating persistent uncertainty in markets. He introduces guests Elizabeth Humphrys, Philipp Ivanov and Rob Prugue. 03:04 – Origins of Neoliberal Guardrails (Rob) Rob explains the emergence of post-WWII guardrails: Bretton Woods institutions, NATO, the World Bank, IMF and other frameworks enabling stability and collective economic growth. They created a predictable environment but gradually weakened. 06:05 – Australian Context & Rise of Neoliberalism (Elizabeth) Elizabeth describes the long boom after WWII, its collapse in the 1970s, and neoliberalism's emergence. She explains how the Hawke Government in 1983 implemented major reforms—floating the dollar, tariff cuts, privatisation—enabled by strong political capital and union involvement. 10:09 – Global Perspective (Philipp) Philipp explains the Cold War dynamic: US-led order versus the Soviet bloc, with non-aligned states largely weak. Post-1970s Soviet stagnation and 1990s globalisation cemented US dominance, setting the stage for the "golden age" of the neoliberal order. 14:21 – Pax Americana and the Peace Dividend Rob discusses how guardrails encouraged discipline: countries deviating too far politically were penalised by markets. But global shifts, manufacturing loss and deindustrialisation gradually hollowed out these systems. 16:02 – Contestation of Neoliberalism & Social Impacts (Elizabeth) Elizabeth stresses that neoliberalism was contested from the start. She highlights social movements in the Global South, rising inequality, and sharp pain in Eastern Europe during rapid liberalisation. Domestic consequences—job losses, wage stagnation—fuelled political distrust. 22:03 – Globalisation, Inequality & a Multipolar World Wouter links globalisation to economic displacement. Philipp outlines four major geopolitical mistakes after the Cold War: Assuming China would remain benign Dismissing Russia Taking the developing world for granted Ignoring the power of nationalism and inequality 27:26 – Where Are We Now? Have the Guardrails Fully Collapsed? Rob argues that the guardrails can't simply be rebuilt—political divisiveness and grievance-driven politics are now embedded. Trust in US institutions and commitments (e.g., AUKUS) is eroding. 30:45 – Are We Heading Toward Chaos? (Elizabeth) Elizabeth argues capitalism is resilient but political legitimacy is collapsing. The promise of neoliberalism—trickle-down prosperity, stable institutions—failed large groups of people, fuelling anti-politics, housing unaffordability and climate-related tensions. 37:17 – Beyond Traditional Politics Elizabeth notes the breakdown of mass-membership parties and unions. Declining voter turnout and low trust create fertile ground for populism and fragmented political identities. 40:13 – Global Fractures & Major Trends (Philipp) Philipp highlights five converging forces shaping today's uncertainty: Economic fragmentation Great-power competition Societal divisions Climate change Technological revolution (especially AI) 45:28 – Technology as an Amplifier Rob and Philipp discuss how technology intensifies divisions but is ultimately a human-driven tool. AI raises the stakes of geopolitical competition, especially between the US and China. 53:14 – What Could Future Guardrails Look Like? Rob foresees three emerging forces: Rise of nationalistic policymaking Oligarchic influence filling the institutional vacuum A tri-polar world (US, Europe, BRICS) 55:24 – Can Australia Rebuild Guardrails? (Elizabeth) Elizabeth doubts that politicians currently have the vision for a new national project. She emphasises conflicts between economic growth, climate needs and powerful resource sectors. 59:24 – The Populist Base Rob asks whether a new base of disillusioned voters is forming. Elizabeth agrees: anti-politics creates a vacuum easily filled by opportunistic populists, on either left or right. 1:02:03 – Role of Media Rob highlights how politically aligned media ecosystems widen the vacuum and intensify division. 1:03:10 – Conclusion Wouter closes by noting the episode doesn't provide solutions, but maps the journey from stable post-war neoliberalism to today's entrenched uncertainty. Full Transcription of Episode 125 Wouter Klijn  00:00 Welcome to a special edition of the [i3] Podcast, produced in partnership with the University of Technology of Sydney's Finance Department, which includes the Anchor Fund, an educational investment fund managing real money, which is run by students and overseen by Associate Professor of Finance, Lorenzo Casavecchia of UTS. So this episode aligns with the second instalment of the UTS Circle The Square sessions, which are a thought-provoking series of roundtables on economic, financial and political ideas. You can find them on YouTube, and of course, [i3] is very happy to support them. So today we will delve into the neoliberal model, which, post-war, has provided guardrails for economics to operate in and allow investors to focus on the usual numbers, earnings, inflation and growth. But these guardrails have been eroding under the influence of various forces, including the rise of populism, and this has led to an almost permanent state of uncertainty. And of course, we all know markets don't like uncertainty. So how did we get here? What has changed, and why did a neoliberal model held together for such a long time in the first place? So this episode sits a little bit outside of our usual investment talk. It's more about the system underneath the data, applied political economics, and we're asking why the guardrails that once held in place neoliberalism have been thinned out and what is left behind. So I'm joined here today with three panellists. So first off, we have Elizabeth Humphrys, who is the Head of Discipline for Social and Political Sciences at the University of Technology Sydney. Elizabeth is a political economist who focuses on the impact of financial crisis and climate change on labour relations. She is the author of the 2019 book 'How Labour Built Neoliberalism'. We're also joined by geopolitical strategist Philipp Ivanov. Philipp has been globally recognised as an expert on international relations, particularly China and China-Russia relations, and he has worked in Russia, in China and the United States. So he will provide us with a global view on this issue. He's also an Industry Fellow at UTS. And finally, we've got Rob Prugue, who is an Honorary Industry Lecturer at UTS, but who most of you probably know as the former CEO of Lazard Asset Management for the Asia-Pacific region. He's one of the driving forces behind the Circle The Square roundtable series. So welcome everyone. Okay, so we're looking at uncertainty in markets, which, to a large extent, has been caused by the dismantling of the guardrails in which the political debate have moved. Now let's start at the beginning. What were those guardrails and what kept politics out of the market for such a long time?   Rob Prugue  03:04 I think the best way to explain this is it's it's nascent, and where I least I see it began, and it probably began post-WW2, when the West in particular, needed to rebuild itself after near a decade long World War and the destruction that obviously it needed to be addressed, and having learned the lessons of previous mistakes such as League of Nations or working in a bilateral World, the West appreciated early on. In order to counter the Soviet force, it needed to unify, and as part of that, it needed to build a system that would rebuild an economy by lifting the ship rather than individually handing out life preservers and life jackets to sectors, or worse, certain people. As a result, guardrails were built to make sure that this was a system that benefited the totality, rather than specific groups, and over time, that worked well. This is not to suggest that neoliberalism didn't have its challenges. Of course, we had wars. Of course, we had economic cycles. Of course, we had large unemployment. But when you compare it to pre-1946, and the fact that you know now, the world had access to nuclear destruction, all things considered, neoliberalism certainly post-WW2 had its benefits, and that peace brought a national prosperity. The guardrails were there, not necessarily as instruments of curtailing growth, but think of it as. Golf rules. I'm not a golfer, but when you go out in the golf there are certain etiquette and rules that are applied. The guardrails have that. But then they built systems and infrastructure to again, manage that. It's as simple as the World Bank, Bretton Woods, World Bank and IMF, the United Nations, the international scope, the World Health Organisation, to name but a few. But then progressively, even do

    1h 6m
  2. 124: Fidelity's James Richards – Investing in Energy Transition Materials

    12/01/2025

    124: Fidelity's James Richards – Investing in Energy Transition Materials

    In this episode, I'm speaking with James Richards, Co-portfolio Manager of Fidelity International's Transition Materials Strategy. James runs a strategy that invests in stocks of companies that are exposed to materials that will play a crucial role in the energy transition. And it's not all about copper or lithium. James keeps his investment universe wide and includes commodities, such as animal fats and wood chips. We discussed the spike in rare earth materials earlier this year. We also look at why this is a super-cycle, but unlike the previous, China-led one. And finally, we explore whether this strategy correlates with the Australian economy and its emphasis on materials and style factors, including value. Enjoy the show. Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on  Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights Overview of podcast with James Richards, Fidelity   01:00 What are transition materials? 04:00 This was an analyst-driven idea, based on common themes emerging in different materials, rather than a product team idea 06:00 This is a different supercycle from the China-driven supercycle 07:00 There is a school of thought that says iron ore is benefiting from the transition. I don't really believe that 9:00 The energy transition will have an element of decommoditisation to it. There will be pockets of price premiums 11:00 Rare earth prices spiked earlier this year as generalist investors came into this market 14:00 In the first six months of this year, China has installed as much wind and solar as 90 per cent of all wind and solar ever built in the US. 17:00 Are we experiencing a uranium/nuclear renaissance? 21:00 This is not a commodity strategy; you invest in equities. Why? 24:00 We are looking to expand the universe rather than contract it, because we think the opportunity set is wider than even we envisaged. Chemicals is an interesting area. 25:30 Correlations with the commodity-heavy Australian industry. 29:00 You can see the way the world is heading, but when we get there is often unclear. You can lose a lot of money investing in a great demand stories that are just uninvestable at this time 31:00 Is this a value play?   Disclaimer: The content in this podcast is for institutional and wholesale investors and is not for distribution to retail investors.  This podcast has been prepared without taking into account any person's objectives, financial situation or needs. It is provided for general information purposes only and is not intended to constitute advice of any kind. References to specific stocks is for illustrative purposes and is not a recommendation to buy, sell or hold those stocks. You should consider the relevant PDS and TMD for any Fidelity Australia product mentioned before making any investment decisions, available at www.fidelity.com.au. Full Episode Transcript Wouter Klijn  01:16 James, welcome to the show.    James Richards Hi. Wouter, thanks very much for having me.   Wouter Klijn So let's start at the beginning. What are transition materials and why should institutional investors care?   James Richards  02:15 You know, I think that the transition is one of the big structural thematics of the next couple of decades, and transition materials are what I call a wide range of commodities and materials that benefit from the process of the transition, and in many cases, the demand driven from the transition, coupled with the fact that it is never been so difficult to bring on new supply of a number of commodities, will create the conditions where, you know what I think could be the next super cycle for a wide range of commodities. And this is a very, very investable thematic, in my view,   Wouter Klijn  02:49 Before we get to the super cycle, can you tell me a little bit about where this idea came from? Because I understand this was more of an analyst driven idea to set up the strategy. Is that right? Yeah.   James Richards  03:00 I mean, you know, I think normally ideas are born in this, in the product team, and, you know, then they go and find a portfolio manager, you know, this one is something that came out through, you know, hours and meetings and the sort of the work that we were doing around, around the commodity space, and the same themes, you know, started to come up again and again, first of all, in copper. But then, you know, we began to get increasingly excited when we saw the same themes coming up across a wide range of commodities, and, you know, as far afield as vegetable oil and animal fats. And it was then that we saw that there was a sort of wide ranging, quite diversified, investable thematic here.   Wouter Klijn  03:41 So what's the story with animal fats?   James Richards  03:45 Well, animal fats is so the renewable diesel chain, you know, particularly in the US, but also also wide. What are more widely, you know, is sealed by animal fats and vegetable oil. And you know, there is a, there is a fine, a finite supply of these things, and so you have to incentivize it. And the only way to incentivize new suppliers through price and, you know, the demand that is in there's been created by stricter regulatory standards and and stepping up of requirements, you know, really places a challenge on those supply chains.   Wouter Klijn  04:22 Yeah. So is that in your portfolio animal fats and oils?   James Richards  04:26 We certainly think that the vegetables animal fats is a very interesting long term thematic,   Wouter Klijn  04:30 yeah. Okay, interesting. So coming from themes that you saw in copper and copper is, of course, a key material in electrification. So is this transition the story to renewable energy? Is it just about electrification, or are there themes involved in this as well?   James Richards  04:51 So I mean electric, if you look at the sort of the current opportunity set, electrification is an obvious one. You know, it has various aspects. You know. Renewables is one obvious aspect. Electric vehicles is another. And if you think about sort of the grid requirements of the increased demand for electricity, you know that that that that also has some pretty found profound implications. But it's not just electrification. If you think about sort of hard to abate areas like like steel production, maritime fuels, aviation fuels, you know, the circular economy is a very is a very interesting area. You know, it's a much, much wider area than just electrification.   Wouter Klijn  05:38 And I think you've mentioned digitization and urbanisation, as to key thematics that are related to the transition materials. In particular,   James Richards  05:47 I think one of the one of the interesting aspects that you get here is that you get demand that is driven by the transition but then you have a lot of other structural demand drivers that are also facing in the same direction and pulling on the same commodity demand chains. And so, for instance, AI and data centres will drive demand for copper and other and other commodities, but also the industrialization of India and Southeast Asia as they start to hit levels where commodity intensity picks up quite dramatically. You know, they're essentially being competition with the transition and data centres for scarce supply of commodities and, you know, and that is quite exciting, I think, in terms of compromises will have to be made. I mean, if you look at the sheer population size in India, and you put a sort of average peak commodity intensity on it, like the numbers are mind boggling. And so, you know, compromises are going to have to be made. And the only way that you get those compromises made, and the signal that you get to to get substitution, and all the ways to get the numbers to work. You know, the only way you can get there is through price.   Wouter Klijn  07:03 So there's a couple of big trends involved. You just mentioned one around the super cycle in commodities. So when you sort of look back over time, have we had some of these super cycles before?   James Richards  07:16 I mean, I do have a history degree, but not much of a history student, so I'm kind of more focused on, on the most recent, which is, you know, the early, the early years of my career were with the China driven super cycle. And, you know, that was one of the reasons, where I saw, you know, clear echoes of what I was seeing, you know, today, you know, versus what I was seeing there are seeing above trend demand for commodities driven by China hoovering up, you know, pretty much every commodity in sight. And you know, decades worth of under investment in commodities at the time. So you had a relatively curtailed supply side. And that's really important is, you know, in order to make money in commodities, the supply side has to struggle to keep up with demand. And so, you know, commodity with 20% demand, keiger, you're not necessarily going to make money if the supply side is a lot, is it elastic? And so, you know that supply side is really, really important, but it is a different super cycle, I think, from from the China driven super cycle. In the the China driven super cycle, I think mainly had winners, whereas in this super cycle, I think, you know, there are clear winners and losers in terms of in terms of demand, you know, and you know, the transition kind of gives the clue to that in thermal coal, demand should decline over time. All demand should decline over time. You know, we're talking, we're talking longer term here. And you know, there are areas like, I think, although there are some demand benefits for steel, you know, the process of decarbonizing steel is quite, is quite difficult and expensive. And so I think there is, there's some difficulties around that. And you know, I'm in Australia, and you know, there's a sc

    40 min
  3. 123: Cbus' Linda Cunningham – Pricing Risk in Debt Investments, Private Credit and the Impact of Retail Investors

    11/17/2025

    123: Cbus' Linda Cunningham – Pricing Risk in Debt Investments, Private Credit and the Impact of Retail Investors

    Note: This episode was recorded before the release of ASIC's Private Credit Surveillance Report 820. The ASIC report mentioned in the podcast relates to the Private Credit in Australia Report 814, released in September 2025. In this episode of The [i3] podcast, I'm speaking with Linda Cunningham, who is the Head of Debt and Alternatives for Cbus Super. We talk about some of Linda's core beliefs when it comes to debt investing, including the banking 101, to be very careful when borrowing short and lending long at the same time. We discuss the importance of cash flows and ensuring the ability of a borrower to pay their interest. We discuss liquidity mortgage funds and private credit funds aimed at retail investors, as well as the occasional funky fee structure. We even talk about how Linda once provided a loan to finance a catamaran called the soggy moggy. Enjoy the show! __________ Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on  Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights _____________ Overview of podcast with Linda Cunningham, Head of Debt and Alternatives, Cbus   03:00 My father was a bank manager and I wanted to get into banking at an early age 04:00 In year nine, I had a discussion with a teacher about the difference between a bank and a building society 05:30 Late 80s, the property market was booming, but interest rates were high. One of my jobs was to drive to Geelong and go through the credit files. One of the lessons out of that was how important cash flow is for a loan. Where is the interest coming from to pay you? 11:30 Matching liquidity profiles, the case of AXA products marketed to retail clients. "Having daily liquidity is great, until it is not" 17:30 You can finance anything, I've financed a catamaran, but it is about where it sits in the portfolio 18:30 Setting up the internal credit capability for Cbus. "You are coming from a bank and so you don't think about who is going to communicate with the borrower what the interest rate is" 19:30 "I started in 2016, but we didn't write our first loan until 2019" 20:30 Financing a catamaran, the 'Soggy Moggy'. 22:30 Debt is not like equities; you can't just go out and buy a ready-made portfolio 32:00 There is no pressure for us to allocate money [to loans], we can give that money to managers 34:00 On occasion, we are seeing some 'funky [fee] structures'. 36:00 Private credit is not new; there have been mortgage funds operating in Australia for at least 30 years 38:00 What is getting more focus is: where is the private credit sector getting its money from? 40:00 I do worry about the flow-on effect from what is happening in retail products 41:30 The market is very competitive on loan transactions at the moment, are people pricing risk appropriately? 45:00 It takes someone really strong, who gets paid on funds under management, to say no to the funds, whereas at Cbus we don't have that tension. I can look at other credit managers 49:00 On the internal front, we would like to do a little more construction deals. We think there is going to be a little more residential over the next year or so 50:00 We are not sure if in affordable housing equity is the way to go. But we do think that with debt you get an appropriate return for your risk Full Transcript of Episode 123 Wouter Klijn  01:16 In this episode of The [i3] podcast, I'm speaking with Linda Cunningham, who is the head of debt and alternatives for Cbus Super. We talk about some of Linda's core beliefs when it comes to debt investing, including the banking 101, to be very careful when borrowing short and lending long at the same time. We discuss the importance of cash flows and ensuring the ability of a borrower to pay their interest. We discuss liquidity mortgage funds and private credit funds aimed at retail investors, as well as the occasional funky fee structure. And of course, we delve into the state of the private credit market and ASIC's recent comments on the sector. We even talk about how Linda once provided a loan to finance a catamaran called the soggy moggy. Enjoy the show!   Linda Cunningham  02:06 Linda. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Wouter.   Wouter Klijn  02:09 So your journey started a bit unusually compared to maybe some of your peers. I believe you started in the industry when you were just 15 years old. How did that happen?   Linda Cunningham  02:20 That's correct look, and I'm going to age myself here, but we are talking, you know, the early 1980s I had grown up. My father was a bank manager, so I had, from a very early age been exposed to banking, and by the time I was finishing year 10, I had a decision to make, which was, you know, Did I did I want to go on to year 12? Did I want to go on to university? I knew I wanted to end up in banking. Superannuation funds didn't really exist at that time, but I knew I wanted to get into the lending side of things, and I had the opportunity to actually start working in the local branch at the bank, a different bank to where my father was, and I enrolled to do a TAFE course. So I did a Gosford Teik, an accounting course three nights a week for four years. So once I finished that, I enrolled in doing my degree by we'll call it remote learning. In those days it was called by a correspondence. Yeah. So by the time I was 23 I had been working for eight years, three years in a branch and five years in the corporate banking area, yeah. And I had my degree.   Wouter Klijn  03:40 Excellent. And I think there was an anecdote where you even on the school playground would discuss monetary policy or something.   Linda Cunningham  03:49 Look, I do remember, in a commerce class in year nine, having a debate with my teacher about the difference between a bank and a building society. And apparently I was, I was quoting the Banking Act of 1959 in those discussions to tell him there was a difference, right?   Wouter Klijn  04:09 Right. Not your average conversation, I think, for a teenager.   Linda Cunningham  04:12 No. But look, it had been something that had always interested me. And look, I still now people have various dreams. One of my dreams is always rolling coins. So yeah, rolling up the 20 cent pieces and 50 Cent pieces into the pieces of paper. I can still do that in my head,   Wouter Klijn  04:31 Very good. There's probably muscle memory comes into play with that one. So having started relatively young, you've seen probably a few financial crisises. I think the 1990 collapse of the Geelong based pyramid building society was one of them. Can you share some of your learnings from some of these downturns with us in terms of how it shaped your outlook on investing?   Linda Cunningham  04:56 And look, that was absolutely a very interesting time to be in the lending space. I had moved from New South Wales to Victoria with my work. And, you know, late 80s, everything was booming in property, everything was booming everywhere. But you also had interest rates pretty high. And, you know, the market was, was, was very hot, and the bank I was working for had exposure to all of the pyramid associated companies. So there were actually four building societies there. And we were actually doing what these days would be called a warehouse loan. So we're effectively providing them, you know, with the loan, 80 cents in the dollar, based on a, on a on a pool of mortgages, and those loans, the underlying loans, would be some commercial property. They'd be residential. It'd be a whole mix of things. And one of my jobs I got to do was to get on the freeway and head to Geelong every few months and actually sit there and look through the credit files. There was you couldn't get them on Excel. You couldn't log into a data room. You'd actually go in and sit there in the premises and look through those credit files. And I think for me, one of those, the sort of lessons out of that was, was really how important cash flow is for a loan. You know, if you are, you know, in our case, we're expecting, you know, the borrower being, say, pyramid building society, to still pay our interest. But you know, if you've got a pool of loans that are in there, that are just secured against a vacant block of land or a non income producing property, where is the where's the income coming from, where's the interest coming from, to actually be able to pay you? And I think that was, that was probably one of the strongest sort of lessons that I actually had, was really how critical income is. And I would say that was even important. If you looked across, you know, the banks books at that time, and a couple of other names you've got to mention from that era. You can't not mention the state mortgages tri Continental, all of the state banks, like I work for State Bank of New South Wales, which actually was in a pretty good state, but we're probably still in that time whereby we actually had a large proportion of our property based loans, which were from an LVR perspective, we had breaches, right? And it was one of those situations where you we actually did okay, like those loans were were pretty good, because the income was still solid on them. The borrowers were still earning enough income from these assets to actually be able to pay the interest. But, you know, they suddenly went from having a loan to valuation of, you know, 60% to 80 or 90% breaching covenants, etc, just really because of the rapid change in interest rates in the market and the impact on on property values,   Wouter Klijn  08:02 yeah, and I think that importance of knowing where the income come from and the underlying assets that sort of carries through through time. Because I think we recently spoken about a loan, and we won't name any names, but it basically looked like a term deposit. But when you looked under t

    52 min
  4. 122: Fidelity's Maroun Younes and James Abela – SMIDs in a World of Large Cap Dominance, Are Things About to Change?

    11/03/2025

    122: Fidelity's Maroun Younes and James Abela – SMIDs in a World of Large Cap Dominance, Are Things About to Change?

    In Episode 122 of the [i3] Podcast, Conversations with Institutional Investors, we speak with Maroun Younes and James Abela, co-portfolio managers of the Fidelity Global Future Leaders strategy, about the attractiveness of small and mid-cap investments, a $12 trillion market with significant growth potential.  They acknowledge the recent underperformance of small caps due to market concentration in large caps, particularly in US tech, but point out that people are starting to wake up to the risks associated with those concentrations. Are we in an AI bubble, driven by these large caps? The conversation starts at a high level, discussing the importance of quality, value, transition, and momentum, and then we do a deep dive into specific investments, such as Arista and FICO-score provider Fair Isaac Corporation.  We also come back to AI and see how it can be used by asset managers. ________ Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights ________ Disclaimer: The content in this podcast is for institutional and wholesale investors and is not for distribution to retail investors.  This podcast has been prepared without taking into account any person's objectives, financial situation or needs. It is provided for general information purposes only and is not intended to constitute advice of any kind. References to specific stocks is for illustrative purposes and is not a recommendation to buy, sell or hold those stocks. You should consider the relevant PDS and TMD for any Fidelity Australia product mentioned before making any investment decisions, available at www.fidelity.com.au. Podcast Overview 04:00 Large caps outperforming small caps in the US is unusual; historically small caps have outperformed over time. But people are waking up to the risk of concentration, both at a stock level and sector level 07:00 We are not too concerned about US exceptionalism, because we don't see a huge break point going forward 07:30 It is always hard to tell whether we are in a bubble, but there are early signs of a formation (of an AI bubble). There is a lot of spending in this area and at this stage we don't see that return on capex coming through 09:00 Fidelity webinar on AI 10:30 We have four focus areas: quality, which is the love quadrant, value is a neglected quadrant, transition is the quadrant of hope and momentum is the hot quadrant 13:30 We have guardrails for allocating to the different areas: 40 per cent quality, plus or minus 10, value 30 per cent, transition 20 per cent and momentum 10 per cent, 17:00 The case of Arista, looking for a catalyst to unlock value 20:00 Another case study, Fico credit scores 23:00 On selling discipline 28:00 We are not looking to make a big market call, but are looking to participate in the continued rally 31:30 We mainly have exposure to China in the healthcare sector. Most Chinese tech companies are too large for us 32:30 Getting compared to the QSML exchange traded fund 37:00 Looking but not buying; the case of Deckers and the Hoka shoe 44:00 White paper on Lessons Learned over the years 45:00 Using AI in our work; you can get to a working knowledge of a company in a matter of minutes For the Fidelity webinar, 'Navigating the AI boom: A framework for investing', please see here. For the Fidelity white paper, 'Discovering tomorrow's global future leaders, today', please see here. Full Transcript of Episode Wouter Klijn  00:00 Welcome to the show.  James and Maroun Thank you, Hi.  Wouter Klijn  So why small and mid caps? What got you started in this particular space of investing. James  00:21 Well, for me, I started in the Australian market, in Aussie mins and smalls, but we were asked by clients to move into the global space. That's where Marouns joined me to attack this global market, which is huge. The tractions are significant. There is a very, very big market. The size of the market is 9 trillion US, which is huge. So 12 trillion Australian so it's 5x the size of the Australian market. So the opportunity set is significant. The breadth and depth of stocks is very significant. So the number of stocks you can own in the universe, in each sector or in each theme, is quite broad and diverse. Valuations are very attractive, and one of the other key things is that they are still under researched, and in many cases, under appreciated for what they actually have in terms of quality. So that allows moon and I to find ideas that are often 15 to 20% EPS growth on 15 to 20% roes trading on very reasonable multiples, compared to things that are more discovered in large caps and the size we can now go up to is about 60 billion US, which is our universe scope, which gives us quite a long runway in terms of years of holding stocks before they are large caps. They're all the key attractions. So it is a very attractive space. Wouter Klijn  01:32 So we've seen a lot of concentration, in particular US equity markets. And we did see that earlier this year's small and mid caps have underperformed a bit. Are the two linked? Is the concentration in the market affecting the smaller mid cap space? Maroun  01:47 Yeah, absolutely. So they're two sides of the same coin. So you've basically had in the US market a concentration of maybe half a dozen stocks, predominantly in the technology sector, and they've been doing incredibly well. So they've propelled the market a lot higher, and they've they've allowed large caps to outperform small caps. That's quite unusual. Small caps historically, if you look back 25 - 30, years, small caps historically, have outperformed large caps. They're smaller. They're growing off a smaller revenue base. It's much easier for them to double and triple in size over time, but certainly over the last maybe five or six years, that's not been the case. So it has tempered some enthusiasm, I guess, in the past, for smaller mid caps. But I think you're also starting to see people now waking up to the risks associated with the concentration levels, both at a stock level as well as a sector level, and people actively now looking to diversify away from that. Wouter Klijn  02:44 Yeah. So you don't see it as a structural change. This, the small cap premium is still out there. It might be just a temporary dislocation. Maroun  02:51 I think so. If you look back in history, there has been periods in time where, where large caps have done quite well. If you look back to the nifty 50, back in the early 70s, there was that there was a handful of stocks that did incredibly well, predominantly at the top end. So we do go through periods every so often. I think this is another one of those episodes. Wouter Klijn  03:09 Yeah. So might be a nice buying opportunity then?  Maroun Absolutely, yeah, we definitely think so, yeah.  Wouter So we've looked a lot at US exceptionalism, a lot of talk around that, especially the Magnificent Seven. But you know, is it the broader market, or is it just the Magnificent Seven that are exceptional? Or do you see that also extended to the to the smaller mid cap space? James  03:35 Yeah, with US exceptionalism, it's a very big topic area. So what we focus on, I guess, in our world is returns, and the return profile of the mega caps is quite high. Still, during that 20% level, in terms of roa's or Reich's return on investor capitals, our index is still around a 15 to 16% level, which is quite high, and also the US in aggregate compared to the rest of the world, is very high. So 15 to 20% returns on capital, compared to the world average of around nines to 10s, whatever you want to call it like, the US, is 50% better on average, in terms of returns on capital to the rest of the world. So we are still, you know, half of our fund, at least, is in the US. There's a lot of talk about the US builds great businesses. The Chinese build great manufacturing, and European builds great regulation. It's a well known kind of cliche, but the fact is that the US does have great businesses, whether they're whether whatever you is you want to say, the cause of that is, and that's expected to continue, especially for the next few years. Yeah, so we don't think it is a one off, and it's not just the mag seven either. Mag seven are symptomatic of the US being a leadership marketplace, and we find that's why we find it very attractive, because in global mids and smalls, we've built a portfolio which has returns on capital of in the 20% range as well, and still a very reason. Or valuations. So, you know, we aren't too concerned about that concept of us exceptionalism, because we don't think it's there's a huge break point that's obvious coming forward.  Wouter Klijn  05:10 So there has been a lot of talk around whether we are in an AI bubble or not, and whether the Mag Seven isn't a symptom of that. What's your take on it? Do you have any views on whether we're in a bubble, just in an expensive period. Maroun  05:22 Yeah, it's always hard to know whether you're actually in a bubble or not, but certainly there, there are signs, early signs of formation. There's a lot of spending going into this area, and at this stage, we're not seeing the return on that, that increased capex come through now it may still Come, come come further down the track, and in which case, all this spending is justified. And you know, things continue as they are, but when you're seeing an increasing level of CapEx, I mean, some of these companies in the mag seven are spending 10x the amount of CapEx they were 10 years ago. So they were capital like businesses, and now they're quite capital intensive. Businesses spending a lot more money, that money needs to earn an attractive rate of return, because one of the things these businesses have done historically is deliver very high rates of return. So when you're investing a wh

    48 min
  5. 121: JANA's Mary Power – Offices Market Woes, Liquidity and Blended Approaches to Property

    10/13/2025

    121: JANA's Mary Power – Offices Market Woes, Liquidity and Blended Approaches to Property

    In this episode of the [i3] podcast, I'm speaking with Mary Power, who is the Head of Property Research at asset consultant Jana. We cover the struggles of the property market in the early 90s, when Mary started out in the industry, and the learnings from that time. We take a look at how investors have dealt with 13 consecutive rate rises, starting in 2022 and we cover portfolio construction issues, including blending listed and unlisted property assets, the convergence of real estate and infrastructure, while Mary also predicts that up to 50% of Australian property money might be reallocated to international assets as super funds grow bigger. ________ Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights __________ Overview of podcast with Mary Power, JANA 03:00 Getting into the industry 04:30 The early 1990s was a dramatic period in the office market and as a young person in the industry that experience was fascinating 07:00 I think we have turned a corner in terms of unlisted property 8:00 In June 2022, we headed into 13 interest rate rises, which was a significant head wind for the property sector. 10:00 The REIT sector is very sensitive to interest rates 11:00 Are REITs equities or properties? 12:30 Property people don't price off the cash rate; they price off the 10-year bond rate 14:00 The Melbourne property market is still a little bit difficult 16:00 People aren't getting their forward projections of labour seating in offices right 19:00 I think it is very hard to promise quarterly, ongoing liquidity in a portfolio with large assets 25:00 There is a big push for the build-to-rent sector to mature in Australia 31:00 Super funds could move up to 50 per cent of Australian property money offshore Full Transcript of Episode 121 Wouter Klijn 02:01 Mary, welcome to the podcast. Mary Power 02:04 Thank you very much, pleasure to be here. Wouter Klijn 02:07 So you've been with Jana for more than 15 years. What got you into property investing or property research in the first place? Mary Power 02:16 Oh, I might have to let you in on a little secret. I I've actually had two stints at Jana. I was actually at Jana in the between '94 and 2000 as well. So yes, I was how did I get into property? It's a great question. I had a friend whose father was a valuer, and I commenced the property valuations course at RMIT, and he got me a cadetship at Urbis, known as at Cox then, and I was hooked. I was enjoyed it immensely. And love the idea of the commerce and the built form coming together. Yeah. So I, I really enjoyed it. And I, I joined at a time when the property market was exuberant in the late 80s, and then it went into the early 90s, which was the recession we had to have. So I saw the best and the worst at the time. And I always say I learned all my skills over those eight or nine years. Wouter Klijn 03:12 Yeah, and apart from the environment at a time, has the investment side changed much? I mean, do do the valuation practices change the deals, change the structures. What's that like? Mary Power 03:26 It's a great question. In fact, a lot of it's changed, and a lot of the fundamentals remain the same. So lots of change, lots of so if you went into the early if you went into the early 90s and we had that recession, which absolutely impacted the office sector. In Melbourne alone, there were six office buildings that were built, and they would have been built on, not with pre commitments that you would have today, so built by developers who then had to entice tenants in. So a mill, we say, a million square feet, or square metres of Office became was built, and then the rest became vacant. So vacancy rose to about 25% and in fact, rents halved. So it was a really dramatic period in the office market. And it was, you know, as a very young person learning it was, it was, it was fascinating. What had happened over that period. We didn't have a Funds Management basis. Then the I think, as we headed into the 90s, I think amp and national mutual were about the only funds managers that were available. Most of property was held within a Balanced fund. And of course, over the course of the next few years. If you fast forward to 2025 the Mercer survey is, in fact, about 94 billion. That's without Goodman, I think that adds another 18 billion on. So, you know, you're a very substantially funds management platform has emerged over that period, over that last 30 years. And you know, it. It now consists of specialist sector managers plus diversified managers. So it's been amazing. Wouter Klijn 05:05 Yeah, sounds like the office sector has gone through a few problematic periods and more exuberant ones, because we've seen, of course, with covid and as well that it got strongly impacted we were working from home. Did that experience earlier on help you going through the covid period? Mary Power 05:26 I think covid, I always say covid was a black swan event. No one had, noone had predicted it, but the balance sheets and corporates and and employment data was all in good shape. It wasn't the same. In the early 90s, we had very high unemployment, up to 11% most people I knew had someone had lost their jobs, and these were very smart people, and we had a lot of corporate issues going on in the early 90s. That wasn't the case in covid. We were in pretty good shape going into the into the covid. So I think whilst it was annoying, and we hadn't seen it before, it was nothing like what I'd seen in the in the early 90s. So that gave me some comfort at the time, yeah. And of course, we had, you know, the new phenomena of working from home, which was something we hadn't had before. And of course, you know, various states had different lockdown periods. Melbourne had a very severe lockdown period. And of course, it's taken some time for people to return to the office. Yeah. Wouter Klijn 06:28 Fair enough. So if we fast forward to today's environment, I looked recently in sort of the superannuation returns for the full financial year, and spread out by the different asset classes. And what sort of struck me is that unless that has been relatively poor performer in recent years, last two years, negative, this year, low, single digit, but at the other side, first time it's single digits again with positive results, have we turned the corner there? Mary Power 07:01 I think we have, and I think you know what happened in 2020? Was covid occurred, and there was this, you know, significant lockdown over quite a long period of time. Never good for the built form that have leases in place. They have contractual leases in place, but you still need people to buy things at shopping centres and office buildings to be occupied for those leases to be sustainable and and of benefit to the tenant. So I think that was very difficult period. I mean, I'm would, I would call the Property Council at the time, they had to negotiate with tenants, 1000s of and come up with a code of conduct of how to interact with a tenant during this, you know, significant period of disruption. And to their credit, they did do that within a reasonably short period of time. On the other hand, infrastructure asset had one contract with talking about 1000s of contracts through the property sector. So it was, it was very, a very difficult period, but I think they did a great job. And then, of course, we headed into in June 22 the start of 13 interest rate rises, which, of course, was a significant headwind to the property sector, because it had performed quite well, even through covert up until the mid, mid 2022 and then we started facing into to higher interest rates. And the higher interest rates, in fact, had been quite difficult for cap rates at the time as a differential. So we know what happened. Cap rates expanded, capital values went down in most cases, the income line, the leasing line was was not too bad that that sort of stood up. You know, it was really the rapid interest rate rises 13 right? Interest rate rises in a short period of time. That really was the problem for the property industry, yeah. Wouter Klijn 08:50 And then if you look at the listed side of the property sector, somehow they did much better. So I looked at Australia's property that increased by 13.8% and then I think international listed property went more than 9% why is there such a strong difference between the listed space and the unlisted space over that period? Mary Power 09:12 So I think, you know, the listed is highly correlated to equities, so you have a big influence. You know, I go back to March 2020, and the a rate sector fell by 46% so that was a very, you know, that was a very stark fall compared to what the unlisted property index was doing at the time. So the A rates are, you know, they've got some interesting characteristics. For instance, the Goodman group makes up about 39 40% of the a rate index. So that will rise and fall depending on on how government have performed over over a period of time. So I think the other thing is that, you know, the a the rate sector, while it is very much correlated to to equities, it's very interest rate sensitive. So you get interest rate, you know, interest rate. Cuts like we've had attractive, very attractive for for the rate sectors, you know, good for repricing of debt. Good indicate, lead indicator. And I think, yeah, the rates can be a good lead indicator for unlisted property. Yeah. Wouter Klijn 10:15 So do you subscribe to the idea that REITs are equities in the short term and property in the long term, or are they just always equities? Mary Power 10:24 Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think over the long, long term, you'd think that they do. You do have a quite a strong correlation, you know, to property over the long term. I think though, you need to be able to withstand having

    32 min
  6. 120: Stanford University's Ashby Monk - The Future of the Pension Industry

    09/29/2025

    120: Stanford University's Ashby Monk - The Future of the Pension Industry

    In this episode, I speak with Ashby Monk, who is Executive & Research Director at Stanford Long-term Investing, a part of Stanford University in California. Ashby has been advising most of the large superannuation funds in Australia on governance, organisational efficiency and knowledge management. He is a regular visitor to our country, and has been here 55 times. We discuss the future of the superannuation industry and the role of innovation. Unsurprisingly, this means that we spend a fair amount of time talking about artificial intelligence and the changes it might bring to the industry. Ashby is of the opinion that it will be transformational, while initial problems such as hallucinations are quickly being dealt with. What does AI mean for the super industry? Well, consultants might be in trouble as AI systems will come to play a critical role in providing alternative views or in red teaming. Asset managers, too, will come to feel the heat, and boards might want to add directors with deep technological knowledge. Enjoy the Show! ________ Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on  Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights ________ Overview of Podcast with Asby Monk, Stanford University   03:30 I've never met a pension fund with an R&D unit. 09:00 I've seen Australia as the future of pensions 10:00 People in Australia don't quite know how cool it is, the member first culture 12:00 There is no professional School of Investing in the world; it is an apprenticeship 16:00 The secret sauce for a pension fund is in understanding your own advantages, weakness and goals 20:00 You can have a culture of knowledge sharing or a culture of secrecy and I don't think you need to do much more than to say those words to understand what is implied 22:30 What attracted me to the asset owner industry is that it is a mission-driven culture 26:00 The AI boom…, everybody acknowledges that particularly our industry is going to be transformed 28:00 AI for knowledge management; the hallucinations are starting to go away. We are very close 32:00 Red teaming with AI; ask to replicate what your analysts are doing to see if you get a different view 33:00 Consultants might be in trouble, unless they move fast towards AI 34:00 Anybody who provides advice…, even me, you could probably ask an AI: 'How would Ashby respond to this idea?' 36:00 The big asset managers that we can think of right now, their existence is threatened 37:30 There are about eight Australian super funds that can be world role models 39:00 I often ask: 'Who on your board has technological expertise?' and the answer is often 'none'. 41:00 Deep thoughts to conclude   "The 'Investor Identity': The Ultimate Driver of Returns" by Ashby Monk and Dane Rook, 2023   Full Transcription of Episode 120 Wouter Klijn Ashby, welcome to the show. Ashby Monk  02:27 Thank you so much. It's an honour to be here. Truly. I think that if I didn't have my job, I would want your job. Wouter Klijn  02:35 It's pretty fun.  Ashby Monk  02:39 Yes, you know, because the investment Innovation Institute almost sounds like my life's work, but you've already got it, so I'll have to find something else. But it's, it's a it's a pleasure to be here, in large part because I think you and I are working on very similar things. Wouter Klijn  02:57 Thank you very much for that. And you also have your own podcast, which has an interesting name of 'Don't get fired'. Why did you choose this title, Ashby Monk  03:05 Don't get fired Podcast, yeah, so that is meant to celebrate the heroic nature of innovation and institutional investment. Oftentimes, I'm sure you're aware the pathway to doing creative things, especially as it relates to the asset owner side of things, that pathway generally flows through a courageous person that is deciding, I'm going to do things differently, and in the process, generally takes career risk. And so the don't get fired podcast is meant to be somewhat funny, but it's also meant to acknowledge, like, we don't have standard pathways of innovation in this industry. You know, I've never met a pension fund with, like, a well formed R and D unit. Oftentimes, it's just a person who is ready to take on a challenge and and I think we do need R and D units, and so the podcast is all about different pathways to innovation. Wouter Klijn  04:06 Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because I think that's my cat.  Ashby Monk 04:13 Hello Kitty. That's a perfect that cat wants to talk to us about innovation, Wouter Klijn  04:16 Exactly, but yeah, no, it's, that's, that's interesting because I listened to your last episode with Mark Delaney, and he made a reference to that where, I think, before he joined the superannuation industry and became CIO, now of Australian super, he worked for an insurance company. And he said, he sort of made his remark that at the beginning, when he worked, there was one of the most innovative companies in Australia, and then over time, they became scared of innovating, and it actually ended up collapsing. And he for part of it was because of a lack of innovation, which is basically goes to the core of your premise with the podcast.  Ashby Monk  04:57 I mean every, every, long-lived organisation faces this challenge around how much to exploit and how much to explore. So you exploit the assets, you have to generate performance, and then you also have to explore in order to, you know, go out and find new things to exploit in the future. And there's a balance, and I think it was the Winner's Curse, or the winner's winner's dilemma, maybe, where those organisations that are very successful often end up in a pattern of exploitation, and then that ultimately sows the seeds of their demise, those organisations that go on for generations. So these family owned companies that you know, go hundreds of years into the future. They build very deliberate innovation practices and and the funds that you and I study, these are funds that have stakeholders rather than shareholders. We know these funds are going to live for centuries. You know, like obviously, many of the super funds are fairly new on that time scale, but University endowments, sovereign funds, etc, they're looking out 100 years into the future. Those organisations are going to have to balance that exploitation, exploration dilemma. And I'm not sure most of them are ready for that. Wouter Klijn  06:24 Yeah, it's sort of a fine balance between sticking with a winning formula and doing enough innovation to stay relevant, I suppose. And you're right, the super funds are relatively young, so maybe they are a bit scared to, you know, do too much innovation and and mess it up, but, yeah, it's a developing industry, but one of the things that I thought was quite interesting when when you spoke to Mark, is that you mentioned you've known him for 13 or 14 years. And I know you have been advising a number of funds here in Australia, but your interaction with the funds goes back quite some time. How did you first get involved with the Australian funds? Ashby Monk  07:04 Well, my mentor, my academic mentor, is a guy named Professor, Gordon Clark, who is Australian who, I think you probably know Gordon, I think he still comes down to Melbourne once a year, for a month. He might even teach a class at Monash, one or two classes every year. And really, he was the one who introduced me to the Australian superannuation industry. And as somebody you know, obviously very interested in the future of pensions, you can't help but be blown away by what's happening in Australia. So I would argue the accumulation side of the equation is basically solved in Australia. Now, the de accumulation, the retirement side of things, there's still some challenges, and people are working on those challenges, but the superannuation industry, by and large, feels like the future for the rest of the world defined contribution, so you're not taking that longevity risk pooled, so you're getting the best asset management the lowest cost. And then also there's the regulatory aspects, where you know you have to contribute, so there's that mandate, and so that combination of everybody contributing professional management and really getting this accumulation running puts Australia in a very rare community in the world where it feels like you got your pensions organised. The Canadians seem pretty good, but those are mostly DB plans and so we all wonder what happens when the nanobots get injected and we live for 200 years? How are we going to manage that? They would tell you that they can manage that through maybe renegotiation. But in the Australian case, you won't have to. People are just going to have to work for longer because there won't be as much money there. And so, you know, obviously I'm, I'm talking like a true Stanford engineer. People are going to live forever with nanobots, but, but really, politicians everywhere are trying to figure out how to manage the unfunded liabilities for old age retirement security, and so you have that there. And so I know there's a long winded answer, but going back 14 years, I was introduced to the Australian super folks. And really, as sad as this is to say out loud, I think I've been back 55 times. Wow. I owe a lot of trees to the world. I got to plant some trees, but that's largely because I've seen Australia as the future of pensions. Wouter Klijn  09:42 Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting system, because my background is Dutch, so I grew up in defined benefits schemes as well, and I know that my dad retired in his late 50s with 70% of his last earned wage for the rest of his life. So that's that's not really working, if you and is he still going? Lift to 100 he's still going. He's still there. Ashby Monk  10:04 Yeah, pretty great i

    48 min
  7. 119: Janus Henderson's Richard Brown – Small Caps in a Concentrated World

    09/15/2025

    119: Janus Henderson's Richard Brown – Small Caps in a Concentrated World

    In this episode of the [i3] Podcast, I'm speaking with Richard Brown, who is a Client Portfolio Manager with Janus Henderson Investors. And today we are going to talk about global small caps. We look at whether small caps are affected by the increasing concentration of the equity markets, particularly in the US, where technology stocks have dominated returns in recent years. We talk about catalysts for unlocking the current small cap discount versus large caps, including the rate environment and the current business cycle. And we take a look at a few case studies of where to invest and where not, involving fuzzy pandas, Italian industrial stocks and JB Hi Fi. This episode was sponsored by Janus Henderson Investors, and as such, the sponsor can make suggestions for topics, but the final control remains with the Investment Innovation Institute. __________ Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights ________ Overview of Podcast with Richard Brown, Client Portfolio Manager, Janus Henderson Investors 02:00 The appeal of small caps and the case for egg producers 08:00 Does the concentration in equity markets and the increasing value of the Magnificent Seven require you to adjust valuation models for small caps? 09:30 The small cap discount to large caps has reached quite an extreme by historical standards 11:30 More clarity on the direction of rates would help small caps 13:30 There is an opinion that if rates stay higher for longer, then that would be bad for small caps. That is something we fundamentally disagree with. 14:00 The consensus view that small caps have underperformed as rates have gone up, that just hasn't been true versus history 18:00 About 30 per cent of small cap companies in the US has had a negative EPS over the last two calendar years 20:00 The two catalysts for small caps: clarity on rates environment and confidence in business cycle 23:00 Are the future small caps all about AI? 26:00 Examples of AI small caps; filling in doctor's insurance papers 36:00 Healthcare, REITs and the dangers of playing the sector game 41:00 Examples of what not to invest in: the case of an Italian industrial company 43:00 Fuzzy panda, short-selling and meme stocks 45:00 Is there a small cap premium in the Australian market? Maybe, but JB Hifi has been one of our strongest performers   Full Transcription of Episode 119 Wouter Klijn  00:00 In this episode of the [i3] Podcast, I'm speaking with Richard Brown, who is a Client Portfolio Manager with Janus Henderson Investors. And today we are going to talk about global small caps. We look at whether small caps are affected by the increasing concentration of the equity markets, particularly in the US, where technology stocks have dominated returns in recent years. We talk about catalysts for unlocking the current small cap discount versus large caps, including the rate environment and the current business cycle. And we take a look at a few case studies of where to invest and where not, involving fuzzy pandas, Italian industrial stocks and JB Hi Fi. This episode was sponsored by Janus Henderson Investors, and as such, the sponsor can make suggestions for topics, but the final control remains with the Investment Innovation Institute. Richard, welcome to the podcast. Richard Brown  02:10 Hi Wouter. Thank you. Delighted to be here. Wouter Klijn  02:14 So why small caps? How did you get involved in this particular area of investment? Richard Brown  02:18 Look, I think small cap is one of the most interesting areas you can be involved in, in capital markets, in truth, huge inefficiencies available for active stock pickers. You know that can certainly peak at peak interest. But you also end up looking at some very bizarre and unusual areas of the market. You know, egg producers, other companies working in particularly niche areas of the market. And you know that that that sort of area of small cap has always sort of piqued my interest and draw me to this area within within investment. So, yeah, I've been working with in the equity market since 2010 and really for the vast majority of that time, it's been with a focus on the small cap area. Wouter Klijn  03:00 So is there a current investment egg produces? Richard Brown  03:04 Well, actually, after a long standing investment there, we've actually had to just take profit after we saw some very strong returns driven by a strong pricing environment that states on the back of an outbreak of bird flu over there. But so I was quite sad to leave that investment, but it was a good one to us. So that's a good reason to be selling a stock. Wouter Klijn  03:24 Yeah, it would be interesting doing due diligence on a company like that, but maybe we can bring it a little bit to a higher level the current environment for small caps. I mean, I think markets are in a very interesting stage at the moment anyway, because we've seen a huge concentration in the US markets. We have it a little bit here in Australia, with a lot of money going into one particular bank, CBA, that seems to crowd out a lot of stocks. How do you look at the current environment for small caps in sort of in that environment where you have this domination of the Magnificent Seven. You got other stocks in, you know, Taiwan with TSMC. Do they still have a chance? Richard Brown  04:07 Yeah, I think so. And you know, undoubtedly, this is a question that comes up time and time again recently, because the vast majority of asset allocators attention are towards the mag seven. And look, that's hardly surprising, as it gets given this huge AI innovation wave that we're really only just beginning to understand. But for me, what's quite interesting is, you know, a lot of people preface that discussion by saying, well, small caps have underperformed large caps, and I think it's quite important to pick that apart, because what we focus on is really the operational performance of small caps, and that's what attracts us to this area, because it's been very strong and high growth for a long period of time. And actually, if you look at this period of so called underperformance versus large caps, actually that operational performance has been fine. It's been very solid. It's been roughly on the same trend as what we've seen over the last sort of 50 or 60 years. Yes. So it's really a case of those returns in large cap being super normal. And for me, you know that that's certainly something that I find quite reassuring as a small cap investor, that if we just continue plotting this sort of steady course, this AI innovation wave is going to, is is going to is going to chug along there in the background. But you know, small caps can still play their part, and indeed still are for asset allocators in their portfolio. Yeah. Wouter Klijn  05:29 So we've seen strong returns in equity markets in recent years, and I think it hasn't happened too much in history that the s, p5, 100 at three consecutive years of double digit returns and four years is even rarer. But what do you think this environment does to the valuation of small caps? Does it? Did you need to adjust how you evaluate small cap models in this current climate? Richard Brown  05:55 No, we are quite dogmatic in our approach in truth. So our valuation models are totally unchanged. And really what we do is we focus on looking for high return businesses that have positive incremental returns that are not yet reflected in their underlying valuation. And we would do that at the crop of markets, and we would do that even when markets maybe appear to be overheating. So indeed, that hasn't really changed the way that we're valuing stocks at this moment in time. And you know, when we take a step back and say what the valuations look like for the asset class as a whole, like you say, it's been a it's been a period where a number of other asset classes have been making new all time highs and potentially reaching bubble territory in certain areas of the market. So small cap, we're on roughly our long run average, if you're just looking at forward forward PE and that's true of most regional markets as well as global small cap markets as a whole. So what that has ultimately meant is that the small count, small cap, sorry, discount versus the large cap area, the market has reached really quite bizarre, extreme by historical standards. And you know, the real catalyst for that came through the aggressive rate cycle that we saw through 2122 if you look back prior to that. And again, this applies to most regional small cap markets across the world. Small caps were trading on a premium versus large cap, because that strong, operational, higher level of earnings growth that small caps tend to achieve was 10 tended to be rewarded with it with a higher valuation. Yeah, as we stand here at this point in time, we've had that aggressive rate cycle come through now, now a massive discount applied to the small cap space. So I think is a good time to be looking at it. Wouter Klijn  07:39 So is there any sort of market event or as a catalyst that might unlock the discount and bring it more in line with historical averages? I mean, you were talking a little bit. Maybe we're getting to bubble territory in large gaps. Do we have to wait for sort of a correction in those stocks? Or could there be something else that would bring the discount closer to historical averages? Richard Brown  08:03 Yeah, it's a great question, and in truth one that we've sort of been scratching our heads about a little bit already over the course of the last 12 or 18 months, as we would have expected that valuation discount to already been narrowing, but we haven't really seen that at all yet. For us, it's really going to come down to two main catalysts, I think, to see asset a

    44 min
  8. 118: National Reconstruction Fund's Mary Manning – Supporting Australian Manufacturing, Quantum Diamonds and Cyber Security

    09/01/2025

    118: National Reconstruction Fund's Mary Manning – Supporting Australian Manufacturing, Quantum Diamonds and Cyber Security

    In this episode of the [i3] podcast, "Conversations with Institutional Investors", we speak with Mary Manning, Chief Investment Officer of the National Reconstruction Fund Corporation, a recently established $15 billion fund that has been set up to promote the manufacturing industry in Australia. We speak with Mary about the investment objectives and how to balance investing in innovative new technologies, such as the fund's investment in quantum diamonds, that is industrial diamonds, not the fancy ones, with the risk profile of the fund, Mary reveals that they have over 900 applications for funding and are now looking for the best opportunities to invest, but also how to balance the strategic asset allocation and avoid being exposed to too much equity holdings. We also discuss what sets the NRFC apart from other government funding and investment vehicles such as the Clean Energy Financing Corporation and the Future Fund. Follow the Investment Innovation Institute [i3] on Linkedin Subscribe to our Newsletter Explore our library of insights from leading institutional investors at [i3] Insights Overview of the interview with Mary Manning: 02:00 What is the National Reconstruction Fund Corporation? 08:00 Focusing on the seven sectors of priority: red tram 13:00 One of the risk of having a broad mandate is that you are trying to do everything all at once and not achieve much at all 15:00 We need to be a self-sustaining organisation, so we need to have some sort of dividend income stream 17:30 We have made 10 investments to date; the largest is a $200 million investment commitment in Arafura Rare Earths Limited to help finance the Nolans Project in the Northern Territory 19:30 Investing in quantum diamonds 21:30 The point of the NRF is to manufacture things 23:30 We get a lot of dual-use technologies that overlap between defence and enabling technologies 26:00 We do have certain funding targets for the seven sectors, but you might also notice that they don't add up to $15 billion 28:30 We do have some restrictions, but they are not necessarily old economy. We have a focus on manufacturing and some of that includes old economy type businesses 34:30 A great problem to have is that we've had over 900 proposals (for funding) 36:30 The Act does not allow us to have control positions 40:00 There is some confusion about what the NRF does and what the Clean Energy Finance Corporation does. 44:00 When I started it was a bit like drinking out of a fire hose for quite some time. Full Transcript of Episode 118: Wouter Klijn  00:00 In this episode of the [i3] podcast, "Conversations with Institutional Investors", we speak with Mary Manning, Chief Investment Officer of the National Reconstruction Fund Corporation, a recently established $15 billion fund that has been set up to promote the manufacturing industry in Australia. We speak with Mary about the investment objectives and how to balance investing in innovative new technologies, such as the fund's investment in quantum diamonds, that is industrial diamonds, not the fancy ones, with the risk profile of the fund, Mary reveals that they have over 900 applications for funding and are now looking for the best opportunities to invest, but also how to balance the strategic asset allocation and avoid being exposed to too much equity holdings. We also discuss what sets the NRFC apart from other government funding and investment vehicles such as the Clean Energy Financing Corporation and the Future Fund. Let's get started. Mary, welcome to the show. Mary Manning 02:18 Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here, Wouter Klijn  02:21 No problem. So can you tell us about what actually the National Reconstruction Fund Corporation is? Because I understand it's created to help diversify and transform Australia's industry and economy, but it also has a return objective. You've been asked to take a commercial mindset to the organisation. Is it as a sovereign wealth fund, a government corporation, a subsidisation vehicle? What is it? Mary Manning  02:47 Great, great place to start. So the National Reconstruction Fund, or the NRF, as we call it, is a sovereign fund. It was set up by the government about 18 months to two years ago, and the purpose is to device diversify and transform the Australian economy. But maybe we can dig a little into what, what that means and and why the NRF was was set up. So the impetus for the National Reconstruction Fund and similar funds around the world, there are a number, that have have been established, was perhaps in the wake of some geopolitical events, and then certainly in the wake of COVID that governments realise that countries need to have some sovereign capabilities. So globalisation meant that, you know, there was a lot of changes in the world, but it also meant that a lot of countries lost sovereign capabilities in in certain areas. And one area where Australia's sovereign capability had been on the decline for some time was manufacturing. And so the Australian economy as as you're well aware, and your listeners will be well aware, you know, lots of very impressive sectors in terms of mining and commodities and digging stuff up, and, you know, putting it on on ships and sending it elsewhere, but not a lot of processing or value add or the manufacturing of those types of minerals, and similarly, a very vibrant services economy, But manufacturing in terms of actually making things in Australia had been on the decline, and, you know, an economy that's structured this way carries certain risks. So covid is probably the best example in terms of, if there's a shock to the global economy and supply chains get disrupted, it's a very uncomfortable and vulnerable place for a country to be to not be able to make certain things. So I guess medical sciences is a great example. During the pandemic, Australia could manufacture hand sanitizers or certain vaccines or, you know, let alone semiconductors and aspects like this. So part of the reason the NRF was was set up, was to make sure that we have these sovereign capabilities. And those are some of the companies that that we're investing in. The next part that I'll add is those are some of the push factors about why the NRF was set up. But in terms of pull factors, as you may know, Australia has amazing research and innovation inside our our universities and world class startups and scale ups, but a lot of these, I. Sort of companies or ideas that are in universities are not making the jump to commercialization, and then a lot of startups and scale ups are actually going offshore because they can't find the financing in Australia. And so another aspect of the NRF is to make sure that these domestic companies or Australian born companies or Australian born ideas stay in Australia and benefit Australia and Australians going forward. So that's a brief intro to the NRF, and I'm sure we'll get into some more of the specific factors in the rest of the podcast.  Wouter Klijn  05:31 Now it's interesting that you mentioned that, that it sort of came out, that COVID realisation, that a lot of manufacturing had disappeared overseas, and we've seen a lot of discussions around reshoring, friend-shoring, but it seems to be more about supporting industry from the ground up. Mary Manning  05:49 Yes, that's exactly true, supporting industry from the ground up and also helping to create new industries. So you know, one of the areas which is a focus for the National reconstruction fund is quantum and you may be aware, but Australia is a global leader in quantum computing and in the supply chain that goes around quantum computing, it's a Centre for Excellence in terms of people who work in the quantum industry. And so this is not sort of a industry that used to be great and then got offshore. This is an emerging industry which is really exciting for Australia, and so that's part of our job also, is to make sure that those new industries emerge and become as important and as powerful as they can be. Wouter Klijn  06:30 Yeah, so we delve straight into some of the thematics in your portfolio there, quantum computing. How did you identify that? Is that something that the team came up with as a thematic or is that part of sort of a policy push into this sector? How does the opportunity get identified? Mary Manning  06:50 Maybe I will take a step back and just outline, sort of the the investable universe of the national reconstruction fund, and then I can go on to where quantum fits inside that. So the NRF has seven priority sectors across the economy in which we can invest. And seven is a lot. So we made up an acronym to to remember the the seven, and it spells red tram. So if you can't remember what the remember red tram. So the R, the first R is renewables and low emissions technologies. The E is enabling. Capabilities. So this is kind of a broad brush term for a lot of aspects of technology. It's AI, machine learning, robotics, space, biotechnology, etc. The D is defence, the T is transport, the second R is resources. The a is agriculture, fisheries and forest trees, and the M is medical science. So if you add up all those seven red tram sectors, it is a huge part of the economy. And one of the things that I did when I started was back to your very first question about sort of sovereign capability and why the NRF was was set up. If you look at those red tram sectors, some of them are sectors or industries where Australia already has a very strong competitive advantage globally. So resources, AG, renewables would would definitely be in that category. And the idea is just to value add more improve those industries and integrate them more into a manufacturing supply chain. The other ones, defence is probably the best example, and medical science is also. These are our areas where you have to have sovereign capability, regardless of whether you have

    47 min
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