Agency Leadership Podcast

Chip Griffin and Gini Dietrich
  • 4.8 (19)
  • Management
  • Updated Weekly

Chip Griffin and Gini Dietrich help PR and marketing agency owners make better decisions about the businesses they run. With 300+ episodes, the Agency Leadership Podcast covers the topics owners deal with every week: pricing, profitability, hiring, client management, positioning, and what it takes to build an agency worth owning. Chip is the founder of SAGA Agency Growth Advisors and creator of the Build to Own approach. Gini is the founder of Spin Sucks and creator of the PESO Model. 

  1. 4d ago

    How can agency owners hold themselves accountable?

    Most agency owners will tell you accountability is something they value, but fewer will realize they’re often the biggest obstacle to it. In this episode, Chip and Gini offer suggestions for how to stop being the bottleneck at your agency. Chip tells of his own recent experience where he missed putting out a newsletter after an emergency root canal. Even with Jen repeatedly pinging him, the decision of whether to get something done rested with him. Most employees won’t push back hard because they know who signs the paychecks. The exceptions are rare, and you can’t build your accountability system around them. Gini’s structural fix has been making “less founder dependence” an explicit OKR, tracked at every leadership meeting. When the goal shows up red on a dashboard, the visibility creates its own pressure. Chip thinks it’s less about any specific single system. AI has helped him stop some procrastination, but it’s also added new projects he’d never have attempted before. His takeaway is that you need to figure out what works for your specific wiring, and not rely on someone else’s approach. For external accountability, peers, coaches, and organizations like YPO or Vistage can help, particularly for big-picture questions you wouldn’t bring to your team. But formal advisory boards are another story. Both Chip and Gini are skeptical, since even paid corporate directors with legal obligations frequently fail at the oversight function. For owner-led agencies, the complexity almost never justifies the benefit. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “The reality is that I have told many employees over the years, ‘You need to hold me accountable for this or that.’ 95% of them won’t because they know you sign the paycheck.” Gini Dietrich: “I need people to say, ‘I need this from you. You’re the bottleneck. Here’s why, and here are the consequences.’ So then I can decide, okay, well, it’s not that big of a deal, or shoot, we don’t want that. Let’s get this done.” Chip Griffin: “You need to develop systems and processes and approaches that get you to that accountability. And what works for me may not work for Gini, and may not work for you.” Gini Dietrich: “In the Spin Sucks community, there’s a group of people that they’re each other’s accountability partners. I think they meet every two weeks, and they hold each other accountable. You can certainly have a coach, like what you do. You can join a membership organization like a YPO or a Vistage or something like that.” Related Five words every agency owner needs to understand Accountability as an agency leader Who holds you accountable when you’re the boss? View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, I need some accountability. Gini Dietrich: Okay. I’d be happy to hold you accountable. That’ll actually be fun for me. Chip Griffin: It is very difficult as a business owner to, to be truly accountable, and just before we started, I was relaying how I failed to get out a newsletter last week because I was, I was tied up catching up after an emergency root canal, and so I did not get a newsletter out, and there was nobody there yelling at me to tell me that I needed… Well, actually I take that back. Jen- Gini Dietrich: I was gonna say, I’m sure Jen, I think Jen holds you accountable … Chip Griffin: Jen asked me like 400 times, “Are we actually gonna get a newsletter out today? Are you gonna send me something? Will we have something?” Gini Dietrich: I’m sure that that’s true. Chip Griffin: But, it just, it really underscores that, that as the owner, ultimately you make the decisions, and it is very difficult to have proper accountability for what you do or what you don’t do. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. It’s super hard. You know, it’s funny because we talk internally all the time about how I’m the bottleneck. And people are like, “I really need you to review this,” but there’s also six direct reports, and I’m, and six people, different people saying, “I really need you to review this.” Things get bottlenecked. I just thought, “Ugh, I’ve got my own priorities as well.” So it’s a real challenge, and even when you have, to your point, even when you have people saying, “I need this, I need this, I need this,” you ultimately make the decision on what’s the priority and whether or not it gets done. Chip Griffin: Yeah. And it’s, you know, I, think a lot of times we’ll have employees and we’ll ask, them to hold us accountable, and sometimes that works, but most of the time it doesn’t. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Right. Chip Griffin: The, reality is that I have told many employees over the years, “You need to hold me accountable for this or that.” 95% of them won’t because they know you sign the paycheck. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yes. Chip Griffin: I have been blessed to occasionally have some in that 5% who were persistent and, they would, they would come camp out in my office and say, “You told me you would get me this answer by this time. I need it.” But that’s a very, very small percentage of the people that, that I have worked with at least, and I suspect that most owners have worked with. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think there’s, I think it’s twofold. I think there is an opportunity for your team to manage up, and by doing that, I think exactly you’re, what you’re saying, like camp out in your office. Or I have one person on my leadership team who is phenomenal at coming to her one-to-one with everything she needs me to make a decision on. And if it’s a document that she needs me to review, she provides me the highlights, and she says, “These are the two areas I need you to, review, and I need it as soon as we hang up.” And then she gives me 15 or 20 minutes back at the end of the meeting so that I can review those things. And then if I don’t, like I’m the a*****e, sorry, the jerk that didn’t do it because she gave me the time back and I did something else. So like she does a phenomenal job of managing up, and that’s how she does it. But I think you’re right that it has, it comes with, I think it comes with experience, I think it comes with other leadership roles that they’ve played, like all of the- and some confidence, you know, to be able to say to the owner or the person who signs the check, “Hey, you gotta focus on this.” Chip Griffin: Yeah. And, I think even though you know it, it may not be as effective as you would like it to be to have your employees holding you accountable, you still need to create a culture in which- Yes … it’s possible to do that- Yes … where, they are encouraged to do that, because that will at least provide some degree of accountability for your actions and follow through. Certainly more so than if you scare people off, if you make people, if you kinda flick people away and say, “No, no”- Yep … “stop bothering me about this.” Yep. If you do that, it’s gonna be really difficult to get any kind of sense of accountability with your team and, it really does help you to have that. We complain all the time about, you know, clients who are on our back about this or that, but it does help us to make sure that things get done. And, so as long as it’s not overbearing, there is a benefit to that. Internally, we often have challenges with that, particularly for things related to our own business as opposed to for clients or for prospects. But we need to try to, as best as possible, create that culture where everybody is willing to step up and say, “Hey, this needs to be done. You are the blocker.” And, if you don’t, if they don’t call you out on it, things are probably gonna slip through the cracks. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, for sure. And, I find that I reprioritize based on what I think is the most pressing, right? And for me, what might be pressing may not be the same as it might be for somebody else on the team. So I need people to say, “Listen, I know that you’ve got this and this and this, but I, this is, this will, is what will happen if I don’t get this from you by this date.” And then I can go, “Okay, let me look at everything and kind of rejigger based on, those kinds of things.” So I, like from an owner’s perspective, I need people to say, “I need this from you. You’re the bottleneck. Here’s why, and here’s what it, here are the consequences.” So then I can decide, okay, well, it’s not that big of a deal, or shoot, we don’t want that. Let’s get this done. Chip Griffin: Well, and, part of the accountability function for you as the, boss/owner is to identify, you know, where you are, where you need to be the bottleneck and where you don’t. Right. Right? If, you- Right. Part of this comes down to- Yes … reducing the amount of things that you need to be held- Gini Dietrich: Yep … Chip Griffin: accountable for. And- Yep … you know, we’ve talked in the past about the importance of delegation and, trusting your team and giving them more responsibility, but that is very closely related to the accountability question. So if you are either micromanaging or you are overpromising and saying, “Yeah, I can get to that tomorrow,” when you know you can’t get to it tomorrow, you need to, to- Gini Dietrich: You think you can because you think you have 36 hours in the day instead of 24. Chip Griffin: Fair. Fair. But you need to get better at, estimating how long it’s really gonna take to do things so that you’re in a position where the commi

    20 min

  2. Jun 18

    In the age of AI, people skills matter more than ever

    You’re using AI to handle more of the work that your team used to do. That’s exactly why the human side of the business has become a competitive advantage. In this episode, Chip and Gini make the case that as AI slop floods everyone’s inbox and feeds, the bar for genuine human interaction has dropped so low that clearing it will make you stand out. Demonstrating real experience and expertise in conversation — not just in content — is where agencies will win. That starts with having actual conversations. Chip argues that meetings have become more valuable, not less, because you can’t fake a real-time interaction the way you can a written deliverable. And Gini adds that it extends to one-on-one meetings with your team, which can be used to get the specific decisions needed from you. Written content is increasingly hard to trust, and Chip admits even he can’t reliably tell his own writing from AI output. Video helps close that gap for now. So does the handwritten note, which Chip still sends to podcast guests when he can track down an address. He jokes that the illegibility is proof of authenticity. In person beats everything. Chip pushes agency owners to budget for it deliberately, with clients, prospects, and remote team members alike. Gini mentions the Augusta Rule as one way to offset some of those costs, though both are quick to say talk to your accountant before you try to benefit from it. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “In the age of AI, meetings are even more valuable than they were before because you can’t fake this kind of interaction.” Gini Dietrich: “The more time you can spend with a client or with a prospect really understanding their business, the way that they operate day to day, their pain points — those are the kinds of conversations that are gonna make you smarter.” Chip Griffin: “When you hit that inevitable rough patch somewhere down the road, and we all hit rough patches with our clients at one point or another, it gives you that oftentimes reservoir of goodwill that you can draw on because you made that human connection.” Gini Dietrich: “My day-to-day contact there became one of my closest friends. She’s one of my closest friends today, even though we haven’t worked together in 20 years, and the reason being is that we got together in person all the time.” View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we’re, we’re people people. We’re- Gini Dietrich: We’re people people? Chip Griffin: I’m a people person, so that make us people people. People- People … people. We’ll just keep saying the word people. But in all seriousness, the age of AI, everything seems to be impersonal, so that opens the door to be more friendly to actual people, to be more personable. And so I think we can talk about how we can set ourselves apart as agencies, as leaders in this age where the tech seems to do almost everything for us. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. You know, it’s funny that this conversation is happening right now because I’m coming to this conversation straight from our bimonthly learning session internally. And one of the things that we talked about today was, you know, how to use AI, our critical thinking skills, but also how to use questioning and probing with it- new business prospects and with clients to be able to uncover the real problems of what they’re, the real pain points of what they’re facing versus just the surface level, “I have a measurement problem,” kinds of things. And it’s, it’s definitely not something that you can rely on AI for. You have to actually use your people skills to be able to do that kind of work, and that’s what we spent about an hour going through internally today. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s so many more opportunities now to leverage the human connection piece with your clients, with your prospects, with your team because so much of what they’re seeing is AI slop. Is technology-driven. And, and whether that’s the pitches that we get in our inbox, and you sit there and you’re like, “I know AI generated this and sent it to me,” and all that. And so trying to find ways where you can break through and make a human relatable interaction with somebody and provide real human insight in those conversations gives you the opportunity to do things that, you know, a couple years ago nobody would’ve paid attention. Now they do. Gini Dietrich: Right. Right. Yeah. You know, one of the things I always talk about is, especially with content, and I think this applies here as well, is demonstrating your experience and expertise because nobody else can do that. And I think if, as you’re thinking about those human relations and the people skills and actually interacting with actual human beings, where you can demonstrate experience and expertise is really what’s going to set you apart in all of those conversations. Because nobody else has your experience or expertise. You know, they may have some of the similar experience, and they may have similar expertise, but nobody does it exactly the same way that you do. And I think being able to demonstrate that in your conversations is where you will win every time. Chip Griffin: Well, I think the key is having actual conversations. Gini Dietrich: Fair. Start there. Chip Griffin: I was talking with a leader today who said, “Look, I just, I don’t even have time to read half the stuff that comes in, even from my direct reports. And so for me, the best way to interact with all of my direct reports is through actual conversations, either in person or by video call because that’s, that’s the only way I have an opportunity to focus on it.” And so, you know, I, I know that we all are of the mindset, geez, you know, we don’t want to be meeting to death and all of that, but I would argue that in the age of AI, meetings are even more valuable than they were before because you can’t fake this kind of interaction. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: If you’re engaging with somebody on Zoom or Teams, I mean, sure, you could have one of those AI apps that, that, you know, the kids are apparently using to interview these days where it puts the answers up on the screen or whatever. I don’t know. But the reality is nobody’s really doing that that I know of, in the agency and client world. So, you know, it’s reasonable to assume that you are actually being yourself when you are communicating with a client, prospect, or team member. And so take advantage of those opportunities. Don’t say, “Well, this could’ve been an email.” Well, yeah, it probably could’ve been, but people are gonna think that was generated by AI. So, you know, don’t meeting yourself to death, but certainly be more open to meetings than you might’ve been five years ago. Gini Dietrich: And I would add to that, that I think the person you mentioned a few minutes ago, I think that’s exactly right. You know, at, I mean, as my agency grows and as we get bigger and, and like the amount of stuff that comes at me every day is impossible to keep up with, and the meetings, especially the one-to-one meetings that I have with my team that are most effective are the ones that they say, “I need this decision, this decision, and this decision,” and then they walk me through so that I’m not having to review decks. I’m not having to review documents. They walk me through what they’re doing. They walk me through their problem-solving, and they walk me through the decisions that they need from me to be able to move forward. Otherwise, it’s gonna sit on my to-do list for two or three weeks when they can use a one-to-one really effectively that way. So I think you’re absolutely right. You don’t necessarily have to have more meetings. You just need to use them more effectively. Chip Griffin: Right. And I mean, even before the age of AI, I always told all my direct reports, “Use those one-on-one meetings to just get every answer you need from me.” Yep. It, it’s the best way… you’ve got me focused. Take advantage of that. Absolutely. Don’t walk away saying, “Geez, I should’ve asked him this.” If you can get the answer, get the answer. And I think we can, we can do that, but it’s also your opportunity to show that you’ve actually got the knowledge yourself in these conversations. You’re not relying on AI to spoon-feed it all to you because, I mean, let’s face it, you know, we’ve all come to distrust the content we see from almost everybody- Mm-hmm … and say, “Well geez, is that really theirs or did that come from AI?” And people are, they’re trying to say, “Oh, well, I can identify the AI.” You can’t. I guarantee you can’t. I can’t tell the difference between my writing and AI writing unless I do a forensic analysis and go back to figure out who wrote the first draft of something. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, honestly, I think the people who have the toughest time with that are the people who, you know, were prolific writers before because prolific writers tended to write in a certain way, which is what the LLM’s all trained on. So, you know, those of us who were professional writers … we used a lot of em dashes. That taught the LLMs, “Use em dashes.” Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: Now, you use an em dash, you must be using AI. Yeah. Baloney. Baloney. Gini Dietrich: Baloney. I still use an em dash, and I will die on that hill because I am not going to stop. Chip Griffin: No. And, that’s the hum

    17 min

  3. Jun 11

    Is your agency easy to work with?

    Most agency owners think their clients have it easy. But the gap between how you believe your agency operates and how clients and prospects actually experience it is often wider than you’d expect, and it’s usually the small, everyday frictions that do the most damage. In this episode, Chip and Gini ask if you were on the receiving end of your own agency’s processes, would you be happy? The answer, for a lot of agencies, is probably not. Their point isn’t that agencies should cave to every demand, but if you market yourself as a partner, act like one. The friction can start before someone even becomes a client. Contact forms loaded with qualifying questions scare people away. And back-and-forth emails to find a meeting time have no excuse in 2026. Use a scheduling tool, have a link ready, and make it especially easy for prospects. Once someone is ready to talk, the goal is to respond fast and remove every obstacle. When it comes to the handoff from prospect to client, agencies should have a standard proposal template so they can turn paperwork around in 24 hours, not days. Make invoicing and payments as easy on the client as you would want it to be if you were in their shoes. And when it comes to project management tools, if the client already has one they’re using, just use it. The tool matters less than having one. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “When someone is at a low point, that is not the time to try to extract stuff from them. It’s a time where if you believe half of your marketing BS that you put out there about they’re our partners, they’re not our clients, well, then act like one.” Gini Dietrich: “We have to think about scope creep, and we have to think about margins, and all of those are very real things. But let’s not cut our nose off to spite our face.” Chip Griffin: “Being easy to work with starts before they’re even a client. I am often befuddled by how difficult agencies make it to get in touch with them for a prospect.” Gini Dietrich: “There are some organizations that have a process that they put clients through, and it’s so rigid that it doesn’t meet the client where they are. And it’s impossible to work with them because of that.” Related How to onboard new agency clients How to do client collections right and get paid faster View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, I’m, I’m easy to work with, right? I mean, you know, I’m not too- Gini Dietrich: You’re super easy to work with. Chip Griffin: Well. Gini Dietrich: I mean, you’re a little cranky, but that’s why I love you. Chip Griffin: I, I, I think listeners know I’m, I’m cranky. They just… If you’ve listened to more than two or three episodes, you’ve probably heard me be cranky about something at someone. Gini Dietrich: Great. I love it. Chip Griffin: Yeah. Yeah. But we are gonna talk about whether or not you are actually easy to work with as an agency for your clients, and frankly for your prospects as well, because I think a lot of agencies believe that they are easy to work with, but their thoughts or their words maybe aren’t matched up with their actual actions. Gini Dietrich: Yes. And, you know, I will say that I learned this lesson when I started hiring agencies and solopreneurs. It’s not easy to work with other agencies. And you’re like, “Oh, that’s not… I thought that that was a good practice.” And then you realize when another agency puts you through it, not a good practice. Like for instance, making them, making you use their project management system when you have your own, bad idea. Sending emails with invoices that go into the void, bad idea. Like there are some practices that I’m like, “Nope, this does not work.” It’s not, you’re not making it easy on me. Chip Griffin: Yeah, and I, I think part of the problem comes from, I think part of the blame goes to people, people like us who are always preaching to agency owners the importance of protecting their time and their margins and- Gini Dietrich: Sure Chip Griffin: and all of that. Yep. And, and I think that, you know, some people listen to that, but they don’t think through, “Okay, well how does that look on the other end?” Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: Yep. And, and so yes, you absolutely need to, to make sure that you don’t have scope creep, and you need to make sure that you are protecting your time so you can get work done, and you’re not just getting eaten alive by meetings and calls and all of that. At the same time, you should think, “What does the other person on the other end think? How would I feel if I received this communication or if someone I hired acted in this way? How, would I be happy about it?” And I think if you start to do that, you’ll realize that some of your practices may not be as easy to work with as you think. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think you’re right. You know, I think about a couple of years ago, probably two or three years ago, it was a Saturday night and a client’s website went down, and the client called me, and the reason I remember this is Saturday night is ’cause I probably already had a glass of wine. And he called me and he’s like, “Hey, our website just went down and I can’t reach anybody.” And I was like, “What do you mean you can’t reach anybody?” He’s like, “I can’t reach anybody at the web firm. Can you help?” And I was like, “Of course.” So I called the web firm, and I finally got ahold of somebody, but I had to go through… I had to email three different email addresses, not a personal email address, and I had to go through their quote-unquote process. And I finally got somebody to call me and they said, “Well, keeping the website up and restoring a backup is not part of our scope of work, and so it’ll cost $2,000 an hour.” And I was like, “I’m sorry, what? But that’s not, that’s not a thing.” And they had taken this client’s… You know, they had… The client didn’t know, the client didn’t know what they were signing, and they did sign a scope of work that, that wasn’t included, and it was $2,000 an hour for emergency type stuff. And I was like, “No, absolutely not.” So their marketing manager and I got on with GoDaddy and we restored it ourselves, which it was not a fun process, but it worked, and that, that forced us to… I think they actually ended up firing the web firm, but which they should have. But, like, that kind of stuff I think is exactly to your point. They had put in a process. They had a contract. They did all the things, but they didn’t think through, like… restoring somebody’s website on a Saturday night is literally a click of a button. It’s not a $2,000 an hour emergency kind of thing. So, you know, yes, you should have a process. Yes, you should have a contract. Yes, you should protect your time, but also don’t do it at the risk of losing a client over something stupid like that. Chip Griffin: Right, and obviously there are some clients, as we know, who will abuse some of these things. So- Of course … there, there are certain times- Gini Dietrich: Of course, yes … Chip Griffin: where you have to be okay appearing to not be as easy as the client would want you to be. So this is not, this is not us preaching, “Say yes to everything that you’re asked to do.” It’s simply make some, make some good judgments here. Now, if this is, this is, the website disappears over the weekend, and it, you know, it’s not something that happens regularly, it’s not the, this client doesn’t generally abuse you, I mean, just get it done, and you can have a conversation after the fact and say, “Hey, that really wasn’t part of the scope of work. You, you know, we helped you as a show of good faith, but we need to, you know, we need to work this into the agreement going forward-” Right … or something like that. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Chip Griffin: It, you know, when, when someone is, when someone is at a low point, that is not the time to try to extract stuff from them. It’s a time where if you truly want, you know, if you believe half of your marketing BS that you put out there about we’re our, they’re our partners, they’re not our clients, well, then, then act like one. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the, I think, you know, we think, we have to think about scope creep, and we have to think about margins, and all of those are very real things. But to your point, let’s not cut our nose off to spite our face. Like, there are some times where you’re just like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” I mean, I didn’t charge the client extra for them calling me instead of somebody on their account team because it was a Saturday night and they knew they could get me. I didn’t charge them extra for that. We just fixed it, right? Like, and that, that creates more goodwill in your relationship and trust in your relationship than being like, “Well, let’s deal with this on Monday.” No. No. Chip Griffin: Yep. And I mean, and a lot of it, a lot of being easy to work with is really the small things. It’s not the, it’s not the big giant stuff. It’s the little bits of friction that just become annoying. So think about how easy is it for clients to book time with you or your team, right? Again, and we don’t want this to be abused, but at the same time, I’ve worked with a lot of agencies where they’re like, “Well, you know, I, I’ve got a half hour two weeks from now for you.” Gini Dietrich: Right.

    18 min

  4. Jun 4

    Using AI to extend your agency’s PESO Model expertise

    Most owner-led agencies know they should be doing more than media relations. One barrier has always been capability: you can’t execute paid media if nobody on your team knows paid media. AI is removing that barrier, and Chip and Gini dig into exactly how. Gini built a PESO model operating system AI that prompts you instead of you prompting it. Many agencies are strong in one or two media types and need scaffolding to think through the rest. The tool can be used to help agencies execute unfamiliar disciplines step by step. Chip frames this as an opportunity to do things that were theoretically possible two years ago but practically out of reach. A paid campaign to amplify a blog post no longer requires hiring a specialist. Beyond drafting, both hosts made a case for AI as a learning tool instead of merely a content machine. Gini tested this directly by vibe-coding a PESO model diagnostic, working through multiple versions with AI troubleshooting each step. The practical upshot is that you can use AI to build separate knowledge-rich agents for each media type, loaded with client messaging and context, and treat them as thought partners for areas where your team lacks depth. It won’t eliminate the need for people or strategic thinking, but capability is no longer a credible excuse for staying stuck at one letter of PESO. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “AI is a great opportunity for all of the things that you wished you could have done two years ago that now become much more feasible for you to do without having to go out and bring in-house new expertise.” Gini Dietrich: “I have built my entire organization using agents. It doesn’t replace anybody. I still need people to do the work, and I still need people to do the strategic thinking, and I still need people to service the client work. It makes us smarter, it makes us faster, it makes us more productive, but it doesn’t replace anyone.” Chip Griffin: “It doesn’t have to do it for you, it can help educate you… You can make it tell you at whatever level of knowledge you need in order to become comfortable with it, and then you actually start to learn it.” Gini Dietrich: “If you don’t have shared or owned and paid expertise internally, you can use those agents to help you build those things.” Related The PESO Model evolves for the AI era (and why your website isn’t dead) Has the PESO Model become a necessity for modern agencies? Agencies need the PESO model now more than ever How to allocate your client’s PESO budget View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we’re gonna let AI do our jobs today. I know we don’t ever talk about AI on this show. Gini Dietrich: We don’t. We don’t like it at all. Chip Griffin: But I think AI is gonna let us do so much more here. Awesome. Maybe even, maybe we can even implement the PESO model as part of the show. Gini Dietrich: Beautiful. Let’s do it. Chip Griffin: I’ve, I’ve heard that the PESO model is something that’s really important that we should- … we should focus on. So why not let AI help us with it? Gini Dietrich: Oh, I love it. Maybe we could use NotebookLM and have it create its, our voices too. We’ll just be done. We don’t have to do anything. Chip Griffin: That’s a great idea. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, let’s do it. Chip Griffin: So then, you and I could just connect and just do our gossiping and chit-chat. Gini Dietrich: Right. Yes. Chip Griffin: And we’d still get an episode even without having to take the time to record. Gini Dietrich: Yes. I like it. Let’s do it. Chip Griffin: I like it. I like that. That would be- That would be fun. Gini Dietrich: We don’t gossip. What do you mean? Chip Griffin: Gossip, talk about world events. Whatever, however you want. I mean- Gini Dietrich: Yes. It’s kind of good that those aren’t recorded. Ah. Chip Griffin: It is. I suspect we would get a lot of listeners, but we’d lose a lot at the same time, so. Gini Dietrich: Yes. Chip Griffin: In any event, we are going to talk about AI again because it is top of mind for all of us, and so we all ought to be thinking about it. And we are gonna talk about the PESO model because we just happen to have somebody here who knows a little bit about the PESO model. So let me explain it to you… Oh, no, I didn’t. Oh. I wasn’t talking about me. With the founder of the PESO model as one of the co-hosts. It, we’ve talked about the PESO model before, but I think, you know, one of the things that, that has occurred to me in recent times, and I’m sure it has occurred to you as well, is that AI can help more PR agencies go deeper into the PESO model, particularly in areas where they maybe don’t have as much in-house expertise. And, and one- Yep … of the things we’ve talked about with agencies a lot is that the PESO model touches a lot of different things, and it’s difficult for any small agency to have all of the skillsets needed to fully execute PESO properly. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Yeah. Chip Griffin: AI seems to open the door to more of that. Gini Dietrich: For sure, it does. One of the things that we did late last year is I built a PESO operating system AI. And instead of you prompting it, it prompts you. So it’s built to do exactly that, so that you can say, “Okay, well, we’re really good at media relations, but we don’t have any expertise in shared, owned, or paid,” or, “We’re really great at owned and shared, but we don’t have any expertise in earned and paid.” Whatever it happens to be, right? And so it will h- it will prompt you with questions to help you think through, “Okay, if we’re great at owned and shared, but we don’t have the E and the P, here are the things you need to be thinking about.” And it will help you either figure out how to execute it on your own with step-by-step instructions, or it will give you a creative brief that then you could hand off to a partner. So it, it’s built to do that, but the point is, is that- I mean, would I prefer you use the PESO OS AI that I built? For sure, but really any AI could do that. I think if you,you have to prompt it. It’s not gonna prompt you. But I think any AI based on information that’s out there in the, on the web that we’ve created around PESO, it will be able to take all of that and say, “Here are some things you should be thinking about.” And I think it’s really good at helping you think through things that you’re just not an expert at. And it’s really good at helping you think through, gosh, we should be using paid to amplify our content, for instance, but I don’t have any idea. Do– should I do it on LinkedIn? Should I do it on Instagram? Should I do it on TikTok? Should I do it on Google? Like, I have no idea. So AI is a really good thought partner from that perspective. Chip Griffin: Well, and I think that’s the, that’s the key point is that it allows you to, certainly you can look at it in, at a 30,000-foot level, you know, with your specialized OS that allows you to really think the whole big picture through. Yep. But you can also use it in a very granular way to say “Hey, look, I know I want to amplify this content. Let’s, let’s look at the various ways that we can do it, and help educate me about how we do that most effectively.” Yep. And, you know, to me, AI is a great opportunity for all of the things that you wished you could have done two years ago Gini Dietrich: Yeah Chip Griffin: That now become much more feasible for you to do without having to go out and bring in-house new expertise, or hiring someone if it’s, particularly when it’s focused, right? If it, it really is just, “I need a paid campaign to amplify this blog post.” That is a whole lot easier to do with AI, frankly, than it is to go hire somebody in-house- Yeah … and a lot cheaper. Gini Dietrich: Absolutely, yes. And it will give you the step-by, literal step-by-step instructions if you wanna do it yourself. Right. And if you don’t wanna do it yourself, you say, “Help me create a project brief or a creative brief that will, that I can hand off to a partner,” and it does that for you too. So one of the things that we do is, you know, I have a paid media expert in, on our marketing team, but then we hire out, depending on what we need, we’ll hire out sort of the day-to-day minutia piece of it. ‘Cause, you know, especially in paid media, you have to be in there every day and testing and tweaking and all that kind of stuff. And AI’s great at saying, “Eh, pay attention to this,” but not great at actually pushing the buttons. And so it has helped our paid media team even just outsource some of that stuff too. So it’s, I think it’s really great from that perspective. You know, it’s still, you, like, I think some, especially PR professionals, are using it for, like, list development and media pitching and things like that, which is fine, but it’s still not… it’s still a good first draft. You still have to add your personalization. You still have to do those kinds of things. One of the things that we were kind of struggling with, actually not struggling with, we were arguing over internally, was our outbound sales campaigns and what those said. And I felt like they were way too long. Our chief revenue officer felt like the calls to action weren’t right, and so we put it into AI, and we were like, “This is where we’re struggling. We’re not agreeing on these five points.” And it pumped out some stuff

    21 min

  5. May 28

    What to do when a client “fires” your agency

    Losing a client is never fun, even when you saw the writing on the wall. The only question is how you choose to handle it. In this episode, Chip and Gini cover the practical and emotional side of client departures, from the moment you get the news to the lessons you take away. Gini points out that there are plenty of reasons a client could terminate the relationship, which may have nothing to do with your work. Strategy changes, budget cuts, and leadership turnover all end client relationships that were otherwise going fine. Chip’s advice is to not react immediately. Ask for a couple of days to review the agreement and put together a transition plan. That space lets you get the emotion out before you say something you’ll regret. Once you have your bearings, focus on making the exit clean. Read your actual contract, confirm the notice terms, and hand over everything the client needs: documents, passwords, contacts, work in progress. Chip is blunt about agencies that fight clients on the way out — it accomplishes nothing and just guarantees a bad final impression. Don’t burn any bridges and you just might see those clients come back or send you referrals. Finally, be honest with your team about what the loss means for the business. If there are financial implications, say so before people start drawing their own conclusions. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You never want to react immediately to the news in such a way that you perhaps compound a difficult situation, or at the very least you don’t make it as easy as it should be.” Gini Dietrich: “I always say that you’re remembered by how you left an organization versus the work that you did. And so you never want to burn a bridge, even if you’re caught by surprise, even if you wanted to fire the client and you’re happy about it.” Chip Griffin: “If the client is coming to you and canceling because they’re having financial issues, you’re probably not going to get the money anyway. So rather than fighting for something that probably isn’t there, why don’t you try to make it as painless as possible and get whatever you can so that you’ve built some goodwill potentially for the future?” Gini Dietrich: “Be honest and open with your team because I think they will come with solutions that you may not have thought of or that you may have assumed they’re not willing to do.” Related Why do agencies lose clients? Agency client cancellation policies Agency owners need to put themselves in other people’s shoes How to protect yourself from an unexpected client breakup View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, as a famous American once said, “You’re fired.” Gini Dietrich: Oh, no. Chip Griffin: Okay. Maybe … pack your knives and go. Um- Oh … what would you like to go with instead? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, let’s, maybe we’ll do that one. I like that. Chip Griffin: Pack your knives and go. Top Chef is a great show. Gini Dietrich: I love Top Chef. Chip Griffin: Not as good as it was in the early days, but- Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree. Yeah … Chip Griffin: it’s still, it’s still kind of fun occasionally, and I, I still- Yeah … do watch part of each season. Yeah. From Restaurant Wars on. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I did love, I did love a little Top Chef. I agree. Chip Griffin:  Jen and one of my kids watch it up until Restaurant Wars, then they let me know, and I come in and I watch Restaurant Wars through the end. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny. They’re like, “Okay, your turn.” Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, that’s where it starts to get interesting, so. Gini Dietrich: That’s funny. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Anyway, no, we are gonna talk about getting fired. Not fired as an owner. We’re, we’re not at that point yet. We don’t have boards that are gonna fire us, most of us at least. Gini Dietrich: Right, right. Chip Griffin: But clients do fire us from time to time, and we’ve had conversations in the past about firing clients ourselves and, and those sorts of things. But, what happens, what do you do when a client calls you up or, worse, sends you an email and says, “We’re done. We’re out”? Yeah, you know, it’s- What are things you should be thinking about at that point? Gini Dietrich: I think so. The, I think there’s a couple of things here. One is that the word, using the word “fired” makes it sound so bad. Sometimes it’s because there’s been a strategy change, there’s been a budget reallocation, maybe leadership has changed, maybe there’s a new VP of marketing or a CCO. Like, there are lots of reasons, right, that have nothing to do with you or the agency or your work. And so saying that you got fired is, I, I just don’t like that term. Now that I have that off my chest, I’ll step down off my soapbox and say, like, there, I think we should always be prepared for the eventual loss of a client. And because we don’t know, right? We don’t- Uh-huh … we can kind of guess, you know, if there are big changes at a leadership level, or if there’s been a reorg, or if the company has sold or things like that, we can guess. Like, we’re probably not gonna be working with that client much longer. We could also sort of read the tea leaves from the perspective of they’ve been ghosting us, and we haven’t been able to get any work done. They’ve been declining meetings or not showing up for meetings. Like, there are lots of reasons that you can kind of read those tea leaves. And so I always think it’s, it’s really good to be prepared. It should never come as a surprise when you lose a client, and you should be prepared. You should have, you should know what you’re going to say, you should know how, what a transition looks like, and you should have a full pipeline that will replace that client fairly quickly, even in a chaotic world that we’re living in right now, so that you’re not caught off guard. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, I think the, you know, the first step when you get this news is, probably 95% of the time you’re gonna be annoyed, upset, unhappy. Gini Dietrich: Sure. Absolutely. Chip Griffin: Some negative emotion. A small percentage of the time you’ll be like, “Oh, thank God, I just- … I, I really wanted to get rid of them anyway.” Yeah. You know? So. Gini Dietrich: Blessing in disguise, yep. Right. Chip Griffin: So, so sometimes that’ll be your reaction, but most of the time it’s not gonna be a happy reaction that you have. And so I think the, the first thing is to just, whether it’s on a call with them or you get it by email or, you know, carrier pigeon or whatever, take a deep breath. Yes. Right? Yes … you, you don’t ever want to react immediately to the news in such a way that you perhaps compound a difficult situation, or at the very least you don’t make it as easy as it could or should be. And I think your advice to, to be prepared for this, certainly if you see the signs on the wall you need to be even more prepared. But sometimes these things are, you know, in retrospect they won’t be a surprise, but you might feel surprised in the moment because you didn’t pick up on all of the little signals along the way and, and that then becomes a learning experience. And I think that’s… to me, that’s one of the most valuable things when you lose a client for whatever reason, is taking advantage of that to learn for the future. Learn the signs to look for. Yep. Learn what you could do differently potentially to maintain the relationship, retain the client. Learn to target better ideal clients, whatever it is. But I, I always like to turn these things into a learning experience as much as possible. But you also have the logistics to actually handle the end of the client relationship, so why don’t we talk about that for a little bit. What, you know, it, it’s not just about the learnings that you can take for the future, it’s how do you handle that immediately? How do you transition the client out? Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think, you know, I always say that you’re always remembered by how you left an organization versus the work that you did. And so you never wanna burn a bridge, even if you’re caught by surprise, even if you wanted to fire the client and you’re happy about it, you should never burn a bridge because you just never know, right? So understanding what contract they signed and what the terms of agreement are, you know? We had a situation where I was working with a girlfriend and, she lost a big, big, big, big client. It came out of the blue, that she was not expecting it because she’d had a conversation a week prior that everything was fine. And so she works with several contractors, and we had to say like, “We’re really sorry. We know that we thought you were gonna be doing work in May and June,” and, like, we go, “The client’s gone.” So, and she had one person come back to her and say, like, “We have a 30-day agreement,” blah, blah, blah. They didn’t have a 30-day agreement, but in her mind they had a 30-day agreement. Sure. In the paperwork, there was no 30-day agreement. So I use that as an example because in your mind you may have a 30 or 60 or 90-day termination clause that may not have made it to the final piece. Maybe you have it for some clients and not others. Like, you have to really do your research to, and go back and read the executed agreement so you know what those terms are. And then spend that time ensuring that there’s a seamles

    24 min

  6. May 21

    What the Agency AI Survey results mean for PR and marketing firms

    The SAGA Agency AI Survey results are in, and small agency owners are feeling great about AI. Maybe too great. In this episode, Chip and Gini dig into the numbers and find the gap between how owners think they’re using AI and the reality of what’s happening inside their businesses. The headline figures look impressive: 89% of respondents report regular or widespread AI use, 74% use it daily, and 88% say they’ve seen productivity gains. But Chip isn’t buying it. He questions whether the sample skews toward early adopters, or more likely, whether agency owners simply don’t have a clear enough picture of what “good” AI use looks like elsewhere. When 53% say they’re ahead of their peers but only 13% say they’re behind, the math doesn’t work. As Gini puts it, they’re probably grading themselves on usage habits, not operational depth. Next, Chip and Gini look at what agencies are actually doing with AI. Most activity falls squarely into what Chip calls “generative AI 101” — drafting emails, writing social posts, generating blog content. The more interesting stuff is largely absent. AI-assisted design work barely registers. Only 74% are even using AI to revise or edit content, a number both hosts find inexplicable given how easy and useful that is. Gini’s own example of running an article through an AP style agent before sending it to a notoriously precise editor at PR Daily illustrates exactly the kind of practical, low-friction habit that should be universal by now. Another data point they discuss is the disconnect between productivity gains and revenue. Agencies report getting faster, but their top-line numbers are flat or down. Gini’s read is that AI efficiency is getting absorbed into existing scope rather than converted into new value. Agencies are over-servicing clients at the same fees, filling freed time with more of the same work instead of building something new. On the pricing side, almost no one reported clients pushing for discounts tied to AI use. Instead of a reduction in cost, the larger enterprise clients are asking about data governance, usage policies, and procurement compliance. Chip advises unless your agency has the infrastructure to manage those requirements consistently, that’s a market best left to someone else. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “There’s nothing in this data that suggests that there is widespread innovative use of it, widespread use of it for internal operations or for business development or any of those things.” Gini Dietrich: “AI is being absorbed into the existing scope. There’s silent commoditization so that clients are getting more for the same fees.” Chip Griffin: “Now is the time to experiment and figure out what works and what doesn’t when the cost of failure is much lower.” Gini Dietrich: “I don’t believe that AI is going to replace us. I believe that people who know how to use AI effectively are what’s going to replace you.” Resources Survey shows most owner-led agencies think they’re ahead on AI. Most aren’t. Related How agency owners can use AI as an always-on thought partner How AI impacts PR agencies and solos (featuring Karen Swim and Michelle Kane) Focus on AI value, not cost View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, as, as we sit here on a Monday and record this, I am truly optimistic. I have published my planned photo schedule for the evenings this week, and despite the fact that- … it says it’s gonna rain Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, I still have games on that calendar, and I am optimistic that we will actually get those games in even though they don’t generally play baseball and softball in the rain. Gini Dietrich: I don’t know if that’s optimistic or masochistic. Chip Griffin: Oh. No, masochistic would be they were lacrosse games and I know they’re gonna be played in the rain, and I’m still looking forward to getting  wet while I take the photos. Gini Dietrich: And you’re still looking forward to it. Chip Griffin: No, I suspect if the forecast is what it is, I think it is highly unlikely that any of those games will be played. Gini Dietrich: Well, good, then you can be optimistic that you don’t have to go and shoot photos. Chip Griffin: There you go. Yeah. I can be optimistic to have some, some evenings to catch up on, on real work instead of- Gini Dietrich: That’s right. That’s right … Chip Griffin: photography. But- That’s right … optimism is kind of the theme of the day here though, because we have recently completed the SAGA Agency AI Survey, and it, it turns out that agency owners, to nobody’s surprise, are eternally optimistic, and they are astoundingly optimistic about AI, and how they’re using it and what it means for their businesses. Gini Dietrich: Yes, indeed. So I looked at the results, and that is my takeaway as well, is that they’re extremely optimistic. 89% have regular or widespread use, 74% use it every day, 89% expect AI use to grow over the next 12 months. And so, yes, it is very optimistic. 88% report productivity gains, and 79% report quality gains. Chip Griffin: It is amazing how much work AI is doing for agencies today. It is, it is frankly unbelievable, and I mean that literally. Gini Dietrich: Literally, yes. Chip Griffin: I do not believe it. Yeah. I have either stumbled across a sample of the earliest adopters who are most interested in AI and have really taken it the furthest, or more likely, people don’t really understand what’s out there and so therefore think they are further ahead than they are. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. I think it’s… Well, I mean, I will, I will say that the head of, the ahead of peers piece of it, so the data said that 53% believe that they’re somewhat or further ahead than their peers, and only 13% think they’re behind. That’s mathematically impossible. And so I think my take on it, and I’d love your take as well, is that they’re grading themselves on their usage and not on the operational depth of it. So for instance, they’re using ChatGPT every day as a habit, but they’re not operationalizing AI as a business model, and I think that 53% are confusing the two. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I, I think it’s probably a multitude of factors. I think part of it is that agency owners visualize a very low bar for their peers when it comes to AI. Gini Dietrich: Okay. Chip Griffin: And I, I think part of that is that people aren’t hearing a lot of examples of how agency, other agencies are using- Gini Dietrich: Sure … Chip Griffin: AI. They’re not as active as some of us may be in going out and seeing how other industries, similar industries are using AI and really testing the limits and understanding what’s possible. So I think part of it is that they don’t have an appropriate baseline to know whether they are indeed ahead or not because they’ve set the bar so low in their own minds. And I think that part of it is, you know, this point that if they’re just using it at all, they think that puts them ahead. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think that that’s what’s going on. I think that they’re, that they’re saying, “Well yeah, I use it every day.” And that’s, and that’s what makes them think that they’re ahead. Chip Griffin: Right. But I, I think as we dig in deeper and we look at how they’re actually using it, it’s pretty obvious that, that most of the usage by these owners is what I would call generative AI 101. Draft me an email. Yep. Help me create a blog post or a social post. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: It is– There’s nothing in this data that suggests that there is widespread innovative use of it, widespread use of it for internal operations or for business development or any of those things. It really appears to be sort of the basics, sort of the things that people were talking about a year or two ago in terms of generative AI, and that seems to be where most of the activity and most of the stated value is. But even in those areas, there’s a good swath of agencies that aren’t even doing that. Gini Dietrich: Right. Chip Griffin: I think the, if I recall correctly, the number was only like 74% are using AI to help revise or edit content. It’s mind-boggling to me that that’s not almost 100%. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I agree. Yes. Chip Griffin: Because it’s the easiest way to improve the quality of your content. Gini Dietrich: Yes, it is. Yes. Chip Griffin: So I just, I can’t even imagine not just saying, “Hey, take a quick look at this.” I mean, even if it’s just to proof it. Just take a look through- Right … make, make sure I haven’t- Right … missed anything obvious here, and you know. Right. Because anytime I run it through, it tends to find something. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: So why aren’t you at least doing that? Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I mean, it’s funny you say that because we just submitted an article to PR Daily, and I know that Allison Carter is a huge, huge, huge, huge stickler for AP style. So I have an AP style agent, and I ran it through there, and it, I think it got five or six different things that I had missed. I was like, “Thank heaven.” Like, ’cause she, she will send it back. She’ll be like, “Nope.” I mean, huge stickler. So, and like, yes, to your point, like you should be using it for that, 100%. Chip Griffin: Yeah. I mean, that’s just– to, to me that’s a very basic use, but there are so many great things th

    23 min

  7. May 14

    How agency owners can use AI as an always-on thought partner

    Most agency owners know AI can write a first draft or clean up copy. Far fewer have figured out how to use it as the strategic sounding board they’ve always needed. In this episode, Chip and Gini explore how to use AI tools as a thought partner, not just a content machine. Gini’s example is a client who asked her to map what a PESO model maturity ladder would look like for an organization. She described the situation and constraints to Chat GPT, and keep pushing the conversation forward. Six weeks of iterative back-and-forth surfaced ideas she wouldn’t have reached on her own, including finding the gaps when the AI was willing to poke holes in her thinking. Chip points out that for owner-led agencies, that 8pm Friday idea you don’t want to dump on your team now has somewhere to go. The tool doesn’t care what time it is, and it has no stake in whether your idea succeeds or embarrasses you. Both hosts advise to direct the AI to ask you questions rather than just answer them. It takes some coaching to get a tool that genuinely engages rather than validates everything you propose, but once you’re there, you start getting real value. One warning they have is that these tools are not always consistent. The same AI that helped you build a strategy three weeks ago might question it today with equally compelling reasoning. Stay in the driver’s seat, and treat AI-generated recommendations as input, not conclusions. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “You now have this always-on thought partner that, when that idea comes to you when you’re watching some Law & Order rerun or whatever, you can ask, ‘Hey, I just had this idea and what do you think of it?'” Gini Dietrich: “AI has really helped me just kind of think through some things that I hadn’t considered, some things I probably wouldn’t have considered, and it also helped poke some holes.” Chip Griffin: “The gap analysis is something that the AI tools do exceptionally well. And part of it is just making yourself vulnerable to it and it’s not judging you, because it doesn’t care.” Gini Dietrich: “The AI knows it can’t get fired. So it doesn’t have the same experience as one of your employees.” View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I think we need to talk to the robots today. Gini Dietrich: Yes, I love talking to the robots. Let’s do that. Chip Griffin: It’s a robot future, and we just, we need to, we need to figure out, I don’t know, some new ideas or something like that. Maybe we should have a conversation with our friendly neighborhood robot. Gini Dietrich: I like it. Let’s do that. You- Chip Griffin: Actually, that would be a, that would be a good episode at some point to actually- Gini Dietrich: It would be a, yeah … Chip Griffin: to, you know, we could have our first guest. We could have, like, Claude as our first guest on the show. Gini Dietrich: I love it. We should do that. That’s a good idea. Chip Griffin: And, and, and see how that goes. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, let’s. Chip Griffin: I don’t know. Maybe that’s not a good idea. Who knows? Anyway, we are going to talk about AI today, ’cause we haven’t talked about AI at all lately. Nope. And we won’t be talking about it soon when we have the Saga AI survey results to talk about, hopefully on the next episode. But we thought we would talk today about AI in more practical terms because we’ve done a lot of talking about AI in, in sort of high-level strategic ways and how important it is to agencies and how we need to be thinking about it and integrating it and thinking about the costs of it and all of that kind of stuff. But I think it’s helpful for us to have some conversations with and for our listeners about some practical uses of AI that, that we’ve used, that we’ve come across, that we use ourselves- Yep … in order to, to get the maximum value out of this new technology. And, a good place to start is how do you use whatever platform of choice you have, or maybe multiple platforms of choice, to help you as a thought partner to not just, you know, write things and spew stuff out more quickly or something like that, but really to hone ideas, to get advice, to have someone to bounce things off of. And I mean someone in quotes here because, yes, I know it’s not human, okay? So don’t- … don’t send me notes about how, “You know these things aren’t real.” I know that, okay? Gini Dietrich: I do know that. I got it. Yes. I am aware. Chip Griffin: So- Gini Dietrich: Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s such a… First of all, it’s a good topic, and I think it’s something that’s fun for the two of us to talk about because I think we’re both, like, full-on in. For me, when I realized it could be a thought partner for me, it was two and a half years ago, and a client came to me, and they came to me specifically, and they said, “We would really like to understand what the PESO model maturity ladder looks like, especially inside an organization like ours.” And, at the time, I had an idea of what the maturity model looked like just generally, right? But being able to apply it to a really specific situation and a really specific organization and really specific brands, I hadn’t thought through yet. And of course, I can’t put the client’s information in there, right? But I can think about, I could… I, at the time I was like, “Okay, so how do I start to think about this with the constraints that I know they have and sort of how they run PESO now, which isn’t in a true operating system, but more sort of pick and choose tactics.” So I went into, at the time, ChatGPT, and I think Claude does a better work of this now, but I went into ChatGPT and I started asking questions. “So if you had to create… First of all, if you had to create a PESO model maturity ladder based on these seven sort of levels that I had already thought through, how would you do that?” And we just went back and forth, and we asked each other questions. And it would, it, it came up with some things where I was like, “Huh, hadn’t considered that.” So then I would sort of put those over to the side and we would continue. And then I said, “Okay, great. Now here are some some constraints, right? We know, we know it has these, the organization has these constraints. We know that it takes, you know, six, six to eight months to be able to do anything, like all of this stuff. How would you change it based on that?” And so we went back and forth on that. Now, granted, it took probably six weeks for me to get something usable to be able to take to the client, but I wouldn’t have been able to come up with that on my own. And I don’t think that even conversations with my team, we would’ve been able to come up with the, all of that on our own. And so it really helped me just kind of think through some things that I hadn’t considered, some things I probably wouldn’t have considered, and it also helped poke some holes. So then I said, “Okay, great. Here’s what I’m thinking. Poke holes in it.” And it was like, “This doesn’t work, this doesn’t work, this doesn’t work.” And so it just helps you… It was at that point, which I think was two and a half years ago, it was, it’ll be three years in August, really think it, think through sort of beginning to end that I wouldn’t have been able to do on my own. Chip Griffin: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a great discussion of your evolution on that, and in my case, I was, I was later to the AI party in terms of In-depth use of it. Gini Dietrich: Mm-hmm Chip Griffin: I, I was very early on to kick the tires, which may have been to my detriment, right? Because the very early incarnations of a lot of these tools was not the best. Gini Dietrich: Not good. Chip Griffin: And, so I, you know, I certainly was, you know, spending a fair bit of time using it for, you know, the basics. You know, some basic writing and editing, some basic image creation. Certainly, you know, transcription, speech-to-text, those kinds of things. But a lot of that, but not really as much in the in-depth strategic areas- Gini Dietrich: Sure, sure … Chip Griffin: until probably a little over a year ago when I started to realize that there had been this shift and that it, it was, at least to me, a lot more usable. And, really just, you know, opening my mind up to what you could actually do with the tools beyond the simple use cases. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: And I think the more time you spend with it, the more you realize just how helpful it can be. And, and particularly in, you know, small owner-led agencies, the… You know, we’ve all sat there and we’ve had an idea at, you know, 8 o’clock on a Friday night or over the weekend, and we’re like, “God, we, I wish we could…You know, I can’t bother the team with this right now though.” Yep, yep. “But I kinda, I kinda wanna continue thinking this through.” Yep. And so you now have this- Yep … you know- Thought partner … always on thought partner- Yep … that, you know, when that idea comes to you, when you’re watching some Law & Order rerun or whatever, you’re like, “Hey, you know, I just had this idea and, you know, what do you think of it?” And, it feels weird the first few times you do it, this, to sit there and say to, you know, the chatbot, “Hey, what, what do you think of this idea?” And, but you learn so much from it because it is, it is able to ask questions, to poke holes, to find

    16 min

  8. May 7

    Stop making sacrifices your agency doesn’t need you to make

    Most agency owners think they’re doing their team a favor when they quietly absorb the painful, tedious, or time-consuming work. They’re likely not. In this episode, Chip Griffin and Gini Dietrich look at the sacrifices owners make on behalf of their teams and why those sacrifices often create more problems than they solve. This isn’t about the occasional tactical sacrifice, it’s about the systemic ones: the conscious decisions to absorb entire categories of work because you’ve decided your team would find them too difficult, too unpleasant, or too much of a burden. Gini admits she’s guilty of it herself, sharing that a new COO sat her down with a list of tasks she’d been handling and told her she shouldn’t be doing any of them. The jobs weren’t glamorous, but they weren’t the owner’s job either. Chip extends this into two areas where owner sacrifice tends to do the most damage: new business development, where owners keep proposals and pitches entirely to themselves thinking they’re protecting team time, and org chart design, where flat structures are usually not a deliberate choice but the result of owners absorbing management responsibilities no one else wanted. Both patterns block team growth and overload the owner at the same time. Gini describes a practice she returns to every quarter, sorting her task list into three buckets — things only she can do, things she enjoys but probably doesn’t need to do, and things she absolutely should not be doing. The third list gets delegated immediately. Chip puts it like this: for everything on your plate, ask yourself why you are the one doing it. If there isn’t a good answer, stop doing it. Key takeaways Chip Griffin: “The number of sacrifices that many owners make is extreme and poorly thought out. They solve problems for today, but create problems for the future.” Gini Dietrich: “On a new business front, if you bring team members in, even though you might feel guilty about it not being non-billable work, they have the ability to become engaged with the prospect early on, understand the work that you’re doing, and give a different perspective.” Chip Griffin: “If most people are reporting into the owner, it’s usually because either they’re a control freak or because they feel like they don’t want to burden people with management.” Gini Dietrich: “I sit down with my task list and I split it into three groups. Things that are on my list that only I can do. Things that are on my list that I enjoy doing, but I probably don’t need to do. And things that are on my list that I absolutely should not be doing. The last list needs to be delegated immediately.” Related The one hand rule: you probably have too many direct reports Letting go as an agency owner Preparing for your agency’s group presentations and pitches View Transcript The following is a computer-generated transcript. Please listen to the audio to confirm accuracy. Chip Griffin: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Agency Leadership Podcast. I’m Chip Griffin. Gini Dietrich: And I’m Gini Dietrich. Chip Griffin: And Gini, I, you know, I think I need to make some sacrifices for this show. I think that, Gini Dietrich: oh, goodie, Chip Griffin: that I need to make my life more painful so that yours is better. Gini Dietrich: Oh, even better. Yes. Okay, great. I have a whole list of things you can do. Chip Griffin: I, I have no doubt. A few of them might even relate to the show, right? Gini Dietrich: Probably not. Like laundry, laundry’s on the list, meal planning’s on the list, all sorts of things. Chip Griffin: Oh, meal planning. Gini Dietrich: Oh, sure. Laundry. Yeah. Chip Griffin: Yeah, that. Good luck with that. In any case, before I dig any kind of a hole for myself here, beyond what I already have, the real topic is the sacrifices that owners make for their businesses for reasons that aren’t always good and don’t make a lot of sense if you’re building an actual business that you want to own. Gini Dietrich: I have no idea what you’re talking about. Chip Griffin: We’ve all look, we’ve all done it. We’ve all done it. But I think we do need to make a mindset shift. It’s so hard and we need to, we need to stop saying things like, I don’t wanna ask my team to do this, so I’m gonna do it myself. Or my team, they would struggle with this, so I’ll just handle it. Or the worst one, and the one that’s most common is, I need to make sure I’m paying my team fairly. I don’t really have enough, so I’m, I’m gonna just, you know, underpay myself. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: The number of sacrifices that many owners make is extreme and poorly thought out. Gini Dietrich: Yep. Chip Griffin: They solve problems for today, but create problems for the future. Gini Dietrich: Yeah, and I will even say like I am super, super guilty of that. Not the money one, I’ve learned that lesson and I pay myself a living wage, but the rest of it I’m very guilty of. And I spend most of my weekends getting caught up on work. And just today, today we’re recording. It’s a Monday. I sat down at my desk and I’m like, I’m already exhausted. Like just brain capacity wise. That’s not good. If I’m starting Monday off like that, it’s not good. So I think it’s, it’s a lesson I continue to have to learn. And sometimes we do podcast episodes so that I can hear myself give advice that I need to take. And this is one of them. Chip Griffin: Do you, do you listen to yourself afterwards? Gini Dietrich: Sometimes. Chip Griffin: I listen to every episode. It’s like a, it’s like a, it’s like a, a ballplayer don’t watching game tapes. Oh, I do. Gini Dietrich: No you don’t. You do? You do not. Do you really? Chip Griffin: I absolutely do. I watch every single episode. Gini Dietrich: For real? Chip Griffin: A hundred percent for real. Gini Dietrich: I did not know you did that. Chip Griffin: I do. Yeah. No, it’s, it’s like, it really is like game tape to me. So I, I always want to try to figure out what I can do, you know, better or different. Plus, honestly, I do love the sound of my own voice. I, I know that that makes me sound like an egomaniac, but I actually, I do actually enjoy it. I find my voice, my own voice soothing. Gini Dietrich: I don’t enjoy that. So. Chip Griffin: Yeah. But anyway, before we really just jump off the rails here, I, I mean, I do think that it is, it is a valuable thing for owners to sit down and look at, you know, what are the sacrifices that you’re making and why are you making it? There are some sacrifices that we all need to make at some point in our business. I’m not saying that you should never make a sacrifice on behalf of your business, but you need to understand why you’re doing it and make sure that it really is a rational decision. And not because you’re, you’re putting off a more difficult conversation or decision that you might need to make, or because you are more worried about other people than yourself. You really do need to be a bit selfish as an owner. You are taking on a lot of risk and stress and all of that. And if you’re not doing it for your own benefit, why? Sure. You can go be miserable somewhere else and probably get paid more to do it. Gini Dietrich: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, two things for me. It’s because I… I am so busy and I spend most of my days in meetings. And so because I spend most of my days in meetings, I like, I use, I have a running log of things that need to get done, and sometimes I don’t get to that running log in time to delegate it to somebody. So it just needs to get done. And that, that for me is the cycle that’s hard for me to break because I’m not, I’m just not gonna say to somebody at six o’clock on a Friday night, Hey, I need this by Monday, I’m just not gonna do that. Sure. I would rather. Right. So for me, the, I have to figure out a different way of working so that I can properly delegate and give people enough time. That’s, that’s the cycle for me. But you know, I work with lot, I have lots of friends who own agencies, I work with agency owners and I see the cycle is less that and more control and thinking that I’m the only one who can do this work, and when in fact that’s not true. Maybe you’re the only one who will do it a certain way, but you have to be able to delegate and you can’t grow a business if you don’t do those things effectively. Chip Griffin: Right. And, and they are, I mean, these are definitely interrelated problems where you either you want the control because you feel like you can do it better, faster or whatever. But then there is also the, the sacrifice piece of it, which is you’re doing it because you… not so much because you think you could do it better than somebody else, but because you don’t want to burden them with that. And in, in your case, you know, where you’re saying, I, I don’t want to give someone something at six o’clock on a Friday that I need for Monday morning. That, yes, that is making a sacrifice. But there are, as you say, there are reasons that, you know, you didn’t get to something soon enough in order to pass it along. So I, I’m really more looking at the the systemic sacrifices that you’re making. Yep. Where you make just a conscious decision that this, this group of tasks, I’m not comfortable asking someone else to do. Not because I can necessarily do it better, but because it would be painful for them to undertake. They would, they would not enjoy it. They would stress out about it. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna relieve them of that burden. That is not really your role. If it’s not work that’s appropriately sitt

    19 min
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About

Chip Griffin and Gini Dietrich help PR and marketing agency owners make better decisions about the businesses they run. With 300+ episodes, the Agency Leadership Podcast covers the topics owners deal with every week: pricing, profitability, hiring, client management, positioning, and what it takes to build an agency worth owning. Chip is the founder of SAGA Agency Growth Advisors and creator of the Build to Own approach. Gini is the founder of Spin Sucks and creator of the PESO Model. 

Information

  • Creator
    Chip Griffin and Gini Dietrich
  • Years Active
    2018 - 2026
  • Episodes
    100
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Copyright SAGA Agency Growth Advisors
  • Show Website
    Agency Leadership Podcast

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