Books And Travel

Jo Frances Penn

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PLACES & TRAVEL

Unusual and fascinating places alongside the deeper aspects of travel

11/20/2025

Alchemical History And Beautiful Architecture: Prague With Lisa M Lilly

What draws a mystery writer from Chicago to the cobblestone streets and alchemical history of Prague? How can a city’s mystical atmosphere inspire a novel, and what happens when grief follows you to one of Europe’s most beautiful destinations? Lisa M. Lilly shares how Prague captured her imagination, weaving the city’s gothic romance and ancient legends into her latest detective novel. From the astronomical clock that’s been marking time since 1410 to the legendary golem still said to rest in a synagogue, discover how this enchanting city became both a setting for fiction and a place of personal reflection. Lisa M. Lilly writes detective novels and supernatural thrillers, and also the author of Writing as a Second Career: Books for Writers. Her latest book, The Skeptical Man, features Prague in the Czech Republic How Prague’s architecture and eerie beauty immediately captivated a Chicago-based writer The city’s rich alchemical history and the famous golem legend, from medieval mysticism to modern AI parallels Navigating grief while traveling after losing a close friend Rooftop dining experiences and local Czech specialties, from monastery beer gardens to traditional duck restaurants Books about Prague including Wolf on a String, Prague the Mystical City, and more You can find Lisa at LisaLilly.com You can also take a day trip from Prague to Kutna Hora where you can find Sedlec Ossuary, or The Bone Church, which inspired my thriller, Crypt of Bone. Transcript of the interview Jo: Hello Travelers. I’m Jo Frances Penn, and today I’m here with Lisa M. Lilly. Hi Lisa. Lisa: Hi. It’s so good to see you, and thank you for having me on the podcast. I’m really excited. Jo: Oh yeah, it’s going to be fun today. Just a little introduction. Lisa writes detective novels and supernatural thrillers, and also the author of Writing as a Second Career: Books for Writers. Her latest book, The Skeptical Man, features Prague in the Czech Republic, which we are talking about today. So Lisa, you are in America. Why were you drawn to visit Prague and research the city for this book? Lisa: It happened the other way around in a way. Two years ago, I went to Prague by way of Krakow because that was the main city we were going to. My travel companion and I went because my grandparents were originally from that area, came to the United States in the early 1920s or so. And I had never been. And so my friend Steve said, “Well, I’ve always wanted to see Prague, but let’s wrap that in too.” And I more or less just said, “Okay, yeah, that sounds good.” And from the second I saw the city, we took a train there from Paris, because we also went to Paris. I just saw the architecture and we came into Old Town. And I thought, “Oh, I’m going to want to come back here. This is a beautiful city.” And as we walked around, I was very intrigued by the history of alchemy in Prague and we did not get to the Alchemist Museum. That was on my list to go to next time. But I started thinking about it. All these story ideas – I’m very motivated by place and I had not even been sure I was going to write another book in the series right then. I was thinking of taking a break and all these story ideas started coming to mind and the more places we saw, the more I’d think, “Oh, this would be a great scene. This would be a great place to set something.” I think Prague is so beautiful and kind of eerie in some places that it just evokes so many ideas. St Charles Bridge and Prague Castle Photo by JFPenn Jo: Yeah, I think it’s interesting. Well, first of all, you said Krakow and you got the train from Paris. I mean, obviously Krakow’s closer. You could have got the train. Lisa: Well, we went Paris to Prague, Prague to Krakow. Jo: Oh, okay. Yeah, because it’s really – for people who might not know, you know, the Czech Republic is really right in the center of Europe, well connected with Germany, Austria, Poland, Slovakia. So, and the trains. And this always surprises me in America, because I’ve been over to the US a lot and the trains are terrible. Whereas in Europe, you could just get everywhere by train, right? So I love that you arrived by train as an American. Lisa: Well, it turned out for us, it wasn’t the best way to go because we had worked with this travel agent who specialized in trains because we thought, “Oh, trains would be great. We’d always heard this about Europe.” And it was in terms of connectivity, but she didn’t think to tell us we were doing this almost four-week trip, so we had tons of bags. We each had two big rolling bags, two smaller bags. And we were picturing – I know you’ve taken the Amtrak where you get the compartments and you could stow your bags above and check your bags. So we’re lugging all these bags and there’s nowhere to put them because — Jo: We all have backpacks! Lisa: Yeah, exactly. And people are just looking at us like, “What? What are you doing?” And there’s not a porter and we didn’t… so I would say to people, yeah, be prepared. I enjoyed the trip, and I talked to some people from Prague to Krakow. One of my favorite parts of the trip was talking to people in the compartment who were telling me – who were Polish and were telling me about all these traditions, and I’m asking them questions. It was wonderful. But yeah, don’t take eight bags. And don’t… yeah, do it if you’ve got like one bag and a backpack and know your stops. We got off on the wrong stop. We didn’t know there were two Dresden stops. So we’re out and we’re like, “Why can we not find this connection? We need to get to Prague.” But people were so helpful. I can’t tell you how many people offered to help me with a bag or like block the train door when they were going to close it on us because very serious in Germany about the train times or help me find… I just went up to someone and said, “I don’t know how to get the train to Prague” and they just happened to speak English and were taking that train and said, “Okay, follow, follow us.” Very patient. Very nice people. Just wonderful. Jo: Oh yeah. Well it sounds like you had an adventure in getting there. Lisa: It was. We flew the next time. Jo: Yeah. Okay, so let’s come back. So you said the moment you kind of saw the city and the architecture was all amazing. What were some of the highlights, like your favorite parts of the city? Lisa: Yeah. I loved, you know, this is very touristy, but I love the Charles Bridge because there’s just so much going on there. We walked through during the day and at night there are singers, we saw dancers. We saw a couple dressed up as a bride and groom doing a whole song and dance thing together, vendors. And of course I thought, “What a great place for a chase scene, a foot chase scene,” which ended up in my book. So I loved that. I loved the Old Town Square, the whole Old Town neighborhood. I really enjoyed… We went to see the – I’m sure you’ve seen it – the astronomical clock, which plays I think every half hour. And you can see all these figures coming out. And I think it’s the… Jo: I just wrote this down. It’s the from 1410, the world’s oldest working astronomical clock. Lisa: Yeah. It’s… and you see people just standing there watching, which is how we found it. We had trouble finding it because we came to the square in a direction where the way the buildings were and the churches, you couldn’t actually see it and finally saw all these people in this narrow area that’s along the side. That’s something else I love too, though, just the streets and how you could wander and you’d end up behind the buildings and come out another place. In Chicago where I live, we’re on a grid, so almost everything is square blocks, which is great for navigating but not as intriguing for walking around. So I love the cobblestone streets. I love the Prague Castle. I went there a number of times and we don’t have castles here either, so it’s very… that’s like a proper castle. Jo: Oh yeah. We should say, if you stand on St. Charles Bridge and look out, it sort of dominates the skyline there, doesn’t it? Lisa: It is what you think of as a castle and beautiful to see at night. And that reminds me just the river itself, the Vltava River. I found so peaceful. I spent a lot of time sitting by the river and reading and just watching it sparkle. And in any weather, just, I think it might be the prettiest river I’ve seen. The water seems so clear and it’s very tranquil. It’s also very shallow. I found out, so perhaps that’s why it looks so pretty. I don’t know. But the boat tours can’t go very far because they run into the bottom of the river. They just can’t keep going. Jo: You went this year as well, did you? Lisa: Yes. I went two years ago and went back this year and did a number of boat trips on it. Jo: I was there in 2015, so a decade ago. I don’t remember the river being low, but then I was there in the winter. And also this summer has been one of the driest. Lisa: Yes, I didn’t think about that. They were telling us as the river was low, and they did show us the different times that had flooded. We took one with a small boat where they could go into, I don’t know the right word, but the sort of offshoots of the river and would show us where the flooding had been and where the river level was at different points and that. Yeah, I didn’t think about that. It was very low when we went. Jo: And you’ve been both in the summer, both times? Lisa: Both in the summer in mid-May through mid-June. Just beautiful weather both times. We did a lot of rooftop dining, which you could see the whole city, and you could see the Prague Castle. And it’s particularly beautiful at night when the sun sets and it outlines the castle. Jo: Yeah, it’s very kind of gothic romance. But I

38 min
10/28/2025

Blood, Wine, And Sacrifice: Folk Horror Inspired By England’s Biodynamic Vineyards With J.F. Penn And Natalie MacLean

What would you sacrifice for the perfect vintage? Can ancient pagan rituals and biodynamic winemaking create something truly extraordinary—or terrifying? In this conversation from the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast with Natalie Maclean, award-winning author J.F. Penn discusses the inspiration for her folk horror novel Blood Vintage, set in the vineyards of Somerset, England. We explore the dark side of viticulture, from poisonous plants and blood sacrifices to the hard realities of small-scale winemaking and the mysterious practices of biodynamic agriculture. J.F. Penn is the award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, horror, short stories, and travel memoir. Jo lives in Bath, England and enjoys a nice G&T. New Zealand wine memories. Pinot Noir tours in South Otago, including Mount Difficulty and Peregrine Vineyard, paired with wild venison and legendary Bluff oysters The birth of Blood Vintage. How a tour of Woodchester Valley vineyard, frost candles, and a note in the ancient Domesday Book sparked a dark story English wine’s climate change renaissance. How warming temperatures are making England’s sparkling wines competitive with Champagne. Inside biodynamic winemaking, inspired by a visit to Limeburn Hill Vineyard, Chew Magna, Somerset. From burying cow horns to dynamisation rituals and creating a self-contained ecosystem The dangers and romance of viticulture, and for more on this, check out the interview with Caro Feely, The Taste of Place. Folk horror and the ‘terroir’ of terror. Exploring the question at the heart of the book: What would you sacrifice to create (or taste) the perfect vintage? You can find Blood Vintage on all platforms in all formats now. This discussion was first broadcast across two episodes on Unreserved Wine Talk with Natalie Maclean in Oct 2024 [Blending biodynamics and suspense; Wine and folklore]. You can also watch the full interview on video. Transcript of the interview Natalie: Jo (J.F.) Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of horror, thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, and travel memoir, as well as short stories. She’s also an award-winning podcaster. Her podcast is amazing, by the way—The Creative Penn. I listen to it every week, and you should too, if you have any interest in books or reading. She has a Master’s in Theology from the University of Oxford, and her latest novel is called Blood Vintage. It’s a folk horror story set in an English vineyard. I just finished reading it and it’s wonderful, Jo. You are joining us now from your home in Bath, which is nestled in the beautiful countryside of Somerset, England, about a hundred miles west of London. Welcome, Jo. I’m so glad you’re here with us. Jo: Oh, I’m so excited, Natalie. An excuse to drink wine with a friend! New Zealand Wine Experiences Natalie: Before we dive into your book, tell us about the Pinot Noir tours and festivals in the South Otago region that you attended while you were living in New Zealand. Jo: I lived in New Zealand for six years, from 2000 to 2006. It was one of those mid-twenties “go backpacking, fall in love, stay, get married, get divorced, get remarried” stories. You understand? Natalie: Oh wow, you were busy! Jo: Yes, exactly. But I did a Pinot Noir tour in South Otago, and it is quite a famous region for the Pinot Noir grape. I wanted to tell you about two particular vineyards. One is called Mount Difficulty, which is a wonderful name in that region because the mountains—the Remarkables—are really high and it’s a pretty hardcore walking region, skiing region in the winter. And the other one is called Peregrine Vineyard. It’s a beautiful region for the nature, but Peregrine have created this incredible architecture. The roof of the winery is shaped like the wings of a peregrine falcon, and I particularly remember that tour. For people who don’t know, it’s out of Queenstown in the very southeast of New Zealand. So it’s really far south. Gets very cold in the winter, but highly recommended. And you are the best at pairing, but I was going to pair it with New Zealand wild venison, which is something you get a lot of around there. Have you tasted the New Zealand Pinots? Natalie: Oh, I love them. New Zealand is better known for Sauvignon Blanc, but I think the Pinot Noirs are even more spectacular. They’ve got this nervy, edgy acidity that I love. It’s almost like the wine vibrates in your glass, and it’s so food-friendly because acidity is to wine what salt is to food. It brings forward flavor. Gorgeous wines, absolutely. Jo: Since you mentioned the Sauvignon Blanc, I also wanted to recommend a very specific New Zealand oyster as a pairing with that, which is the Bluff oyster. And I think you like oysters, right? Natalie: I write about them, yeah. It’s the one thing I can’t get past—it’s a texture thing. But anyway. Jo: Okay, for people who love oysters who are listening, I love oysters. I’ve eaten oysters all over the world, and the Bluff oyster in New Zealand has a very short winter season, but it is incredible to me. It is the best, and I have a vivid memory of drinking a Sauvignon Blanc with a Bluff oyster—maybe a whole dozen oysters—on Lake Wakatipu in the winter sun. So I highly recommend that pairing as well, and it’s very hard to get them anywhere else in the world. Bluff oysters New Zealand Photo by JFPenn Natalie: Oh wow. I’ll have to make a note of that. My husband likes oysters, so we’ll do that. I love that. Great evocative image there that carries through with your book. Introducing Blood Vintage Natalie: So let’s set the stage for your book, Blood Vintage. You did a serious amount of research into biodynamic winemaking and winemaking generally. Before we talk about that, maybe share the overview of the book story with us, please. Jo: This is the back of the book. Blood Vintage is a special edition, so I shall read it for you: The perfect vintage requires the darkest sacrifice. In the rolling hills of Somerset, England, an ancient evil ripens alongside the grapes of Standing Stones Cellars. Rebecca Langford never expected her architectural career to lead to the secluded rural village of Windbridge Hollow. But after a violent clash with eco-activists, she flees the chaos of London, desperate for a new start. She seeks refuge at Standing Stone Cellars, a vineyard renowned for its award-winning wines and mysterious history, nestled in the shadow of ancient oaks and standing stones that have watched over the land for millennia. But this vineyard is no sanctuary. From the primal fires of Beltane to the chilling shadow of Samhain, Rebecca finds herself ensnared in an ancient cycle of sacrifice and rebirth. The disappearance of her fellow workers, amidst evidence of blood rites, forces her to confront a horrifying truth: Standing Stone’s exceptional vintage is nourished by more than just sunlight and soil. As the veil between worlds grows thin, Rebecca must make an impossible choice: embrace the dark legacy of the vineyard and secure her place amongst its guardians, or risk becoming the next offering to the insatiable horned god that demands his due. Blood Vintage is an atmospheric descent into folk horror where the line between sacred and profane blurs with each sip of wine. Lose yourself in a world where pagan ritual and modern ambitions collide, and discover the terrible price of belonging in a place where the very earth demands blood.” Natalie: Ooh, I love that. That is such a great description that really captures it—so atmospheric, so dark and brooding, and yet, bonus for us who love wine, wine is running right through it, woven into it. Wine Pairings for the Book Natalie: Before we dive into that, I’m itching to get there. You selected a wine to pair with your book, as have I. So let’s hear about yours first. What is it? Jo: Yes, the blood vintage itself would be the Samhain wine from Limeburn Hill Vineyard. We’re going to come back to that, but that’s really hard to get. So I’ve gone with the Pinot Rosé from Woodchester Valley, which is where the original idea came from. I love a rosé, and we’ll obviously talk about where this has come from. I have my glass ready. This has been chilled. Woodchester Valley, Pinot Rosé—and I read about it, it’s 100% Pinot Précoce, the early Pinot Noir. Natalie: Oh, lovely. I love a rosé. I’ve chosen a more brooding, darker wine for you and your book. This is from Italy because we just don’t get many English wines here in Canada. But this one, the label has a woman and her hair is in flames because fire is a metaphor, but also the sun. Stars are all around her. It comes from the Donna Fugata winery in Italy, which means “fugitive woman” or “woman on the run,” which I think Rebecca is a little bit—from her architectural career and she’s escaping out to the countryside with the vineyards. Anyway, lots of metaphors, but I love the labels on this. So let’s have a sip to get going here. Cheers! Jo: Oh, you have a goblet there! Natalie: Yes, my special glass. I bought this 20 years ago. I was in Prague with a friend of mine. It was winter, and I saw these glasses. I drank a lot more red wine at the time, and I was like, this is perfect, I love these. And this is one of those times where, you know, I’m backpacking—do I really want to take glass anywhere? But we had such a lovely trip, and these memories of drinking together are important. So that’s the story of the glass. I know it’s not perfect for rosé, we’re not going to get technical here. Natalie: But for those who want to know, an ideal glass is clear and has a big enough bowl so that you can swirl it. But I love the goblet. Very atmospheric, very apt. Very blood vintage! Jo: Very gothic. That’s lovely. Natalie: Okay, tell us what drew you to t

1 hr
10/16/2025

Mexico’s Day Of The Dead With Luisa Navarro

Why is Mexico’s Day of the Dead such a beautiful way to remember our loved ones who have died? What are the elements that go into the altar? How can tourists respectfully experience the tradition? In this fascinating conversation, Luisa Navarro, founder of Mexico in My Pocket and author of Mexico’s Day of the Dead: A Celebration of Life through Stories and Photos, shares her personal journey from rejecting her Mexican heritage to celebrating it, while revealing the true beauty and meaning behind one of Mexico’s most misunderstood traditions. Luisa Navarro is the founder and CEO of Mexico in My Pocket, and the author of Mexico’s Day of the Dead: A Celebration of Life through Stories and Photos. Luisa’s childhood struggle with being Mexican American and how she transformed from rejecting her culture to becoming its passionate advocate The true meaning behind Día de los Muertos, its indigenous Aztec origins, and how it differs completely from Halloween The significance of ofrendas (altars), including sugar skulls, pan de muerto, marigolds, and photographs of deceased loved ones How different days honor different types of deaths Traditional foods like pan de muerto, café de olla, and how families share meals with both the living and the dead How to respectfully experience Day of the Dead celebrations in Mexico while avoiding appropriation and understanding the difference between authentic traditions and commercialized parades You can find Luisa at MexicoInMyPocket.com and Mexico’s Day of the Dead book here. Transcript of the interview Jo: Hello, travelers. I’m Jo Frances Penn, and today I’m here with Luisa Navarro. Hi Luisa. Luisa: Hi. It’s so wonderful to be here with you today. Jo: Great to meet you. Now, just a quick introduction. Luisa is the founder and CEO of Mexico in My Pocket, and the author of Mexico’s Day of the Dead: A Celebration of Life through Stories and Photos, which is fantastic. So first up, just tell us a bit more about you and your Mexican heritage and how you bring that into your life and your business in Brooklyn. Luisa: Yes, of course. So I was actually born in Dallas, Texas. I am Mexican American. My mom is from Tila, which is Northern Mexico, and my dad is from Michoacán, which is more central and it’s actually where Día de los Muertos is very much celebrated. Growing up in Dallas, I struggled originally with my identity a lot being Mexican American — because what happened was I went to school and I only spoke Spanish because Spanish was my first language. My mom insisted that all four of her kids learn Spanish first before going to school. And then when we were in school, we all struggled to make friends because we only spoke Spanish. The teachers would criticize my mom, but my mom insisted that we would be perfectly fine and that we would learn English eventually, and she was right. And so eventually I became bilingual. And during that time, at a very young age, I discovered young kids were saying horrible things about Mexicans and I didn’t know how to handle that. I realized, wait, I think I’m Mexican. And so long story short, I didn’t want to be Mexican at a very young age. I was about four or five years old. I have these memories very vividly. And so I came home to my mom in Dallas and I said, I’m no longer Luisa, I’m now Hannah. I think I said Hana, my mom always says I pronounced it very interestingly, but I was like, I’m Hana. And I will not respond if you don’t call me Hana. Yeah, I mean, it’s very sad. But luckily, luckily, luckily, thank God my mom and my grandmothers all came to my rescue and they were like, no, these kids are wrong, and here’s why, and here’s why being Mexican is incredible. And so luckily for me, I did a 180. I very much embraced my culture. I became a journalist. And during that journey as a journalist, I noticed that these negative types of stories continued to happen. But instead of getting upset with people, I never really blamed the kids who said these things because I realized they were being taught this by their parents. As you get older, you realize this is being learned. And so when I became a journalist, I realized that the media was always covering us in a very negative light. And being American is amazing because we have mainstream media here. We have the power to tell stories, but unfortunately I have seen as a Mexican American, a lot of those stories that are told about Mexico in the US are negative. I wanted to do something positive. So as a journalist, I started a side project called Mexico in My Pocket and it was a blog. And on that blog I would share very positive stories about Mexico and our culture, and — I slowly started to learn more about my heritage and I became very passionate about it. And I started that blog in 2015. So it’s been 10 years now. So basically my journalism career brought me to New York City. I went to Columbia Journalism School and then eventually I got out of the news and I started my own company called Mexico in My Pocket, where we sell beautiful handcrafted items from all over Mexico. And I have the privilege of telling the story of how these products are made, and the stories of our culture. Jo: I think that’s wonderful. It’s really interesting to hear about how that felt for you as a child. But of course, you’ve chosen one really interesting topic, Day of the Dead, which in itself many people struggle with negative stereotypes around Day of the Dead. So let’s just start with sort of basics. What is Day of the Dead? When is it? And why did you choose this topic? Because you could have chosen lots of different ones. Luisa: I could have chosen so many different topics. And the irony is that when I was little, I also very much struggled with the fear of death. And I actually don’t think I really loved Day of the Dead as a child because my mom would decorate with skeletons during that time of year. And I feared it and I was like, this is terrifying. I don’t want to talk about death. My biggest fear was my parents dying. But the reason that I decided to write a book about Day of the Dead, and for those of you who don’t know what Day of the Dead is, is once a year. It’s a Mexican tradition, it’s rooted in Mexico. Once a year we come together and we honor our loved ones who have died. And I think it’s the most incredible holiday. I think that everyone around the world should take time to once a year, honor their loved ones who have died. You know, we celebrate our moms once a year. We celebrate our dads once a year. We celebrate love. Once a year, we should be celebrating our loved ones who have died. And I think that Mexico is the true emblem and symbol and example for us to honor the dead once a year. And they’ve set an incredible example for us not to fear death, but to take control of it the most that we can and to celebrate our loved ones who have died and not forget them. And so the reason I wrote this book, there’s a lot of reasons, but one of the reasons was just like the reason I started my blog. I felt like — I did not see an accurate or beautiful representation of what Day of the Dead is, and I felt like I wanted something to preserve these traditions so that I could pass it down to the future generations, including my son. Because I worried that being Mexican American, I am the first generation to live here, but I’m so proud to be Mexican and I never want to lose sight of that. And I want my son to also know about his heritage, his ancestry, his traditions. And so I wrote this book for the future generations so that they could learn and always celebrate these traditions, no matter how far removed they are from their origin, from their ancestry’s origin country. Another reason I wrote the book was — There is a lot of confusion and misunderstanding when it comes to Day of the Dead. So I have a gift shop in Carroll Gardens in Brooklyn, and people would come into our store and they would see the altar that I build in the store. And they would ask us if we were celebrating the devil. And I was like, okay. We need a book because I want to clarify just how beautiful Day of the Dead is. And I think the name Day of the Dead, I think anything associated with death can be very off-putting because I think just like me as a child fearing death. I think a lot of people fear death and I think they don’t want to talk about it. And so that inspired me to write this book and to shed light on how I think Mexico is doing an incredible job at basically honoring our loved ones who have died. And if you’ve experienced death, I think you can relate to this, that it is very painful, not just because the person died, but you feel like you’re not allowed to talk about them anymore. And Day of the Dead is a time where you can come together once a year and talk about your loved ones who have died without having to worry about anyone judging you. And I think it’s so beautiful. Jo: You mentioned your son there and I noticed in the book, which is a beautiful book, both the words and obviously the images, it is really beautiful and colorful. And there are children in the book, and this is another thing that I think some people get hung up on, like we should only talk about death if we’re adults or whatever. But Mexican tradition seems to bring in the children a lot more. Perhaps you could comment on that, like how is it so natural that everyone in the family is included? Luisa: I mean, everyone in the family is included because on Day of the Dead, we’re honoring our family members. And so it’s also a wonderful opportunity to educate your children on their ancestors and on their loved ones who have died. And quite frankly, one of the things that was most moving to me when I traveled to Oaxaca that I didn’t know about was an altar that honored babies. And so there’s room for everyone, like death affect

32 min
09/25/2025

Egypt Beyond the Pyramids And Glimpsing The Future In History With Sean McLachlan

What’s it really like to be an archaeologist in the Middle East? How can modern travelers experience Egypt beyond the pyramids and tourist traps? What will survive from our digital age when future archaeologists dig through our ruins, and how does studying ancient civilizations change the way you see the world today? Canadian ex-archaeologist and award-winning author Sean McLachlan shares insights from 25 years of full-time writing and decades of travel through Egypt, Morocco, and the Middle East. Sean McLachlan is a Canadian ex-archaeologist and the multi-award-winning author of history, travel, and fiction. His books include The Masked Man of Cairo Historical Detective series, the Moroccan Mysteries, and post-apocalyptic sci-fi series, Toxic World. Sean’s previous archaeology career in the Middle East and Eastern Europe, including dangerous moments The reality of archaeological fieldwork vs. Hollywood portrayals, from Roman bath games to 3000-year-old fingerprints His Masked Man of Cairo detective series set in 1919 Egypt during the independence movement Hidden gems in Egypt beyond ancient sites: Islamic Cairo, desert oases, Coptic monasteries, and the new museums Practical travel advice for Egypt and the Middle East, including cultural sensitivity and safety tips His post-apocalyptic fiction and thoughts on what will survive from our civilization for future archaeologists You can find Sean at SeanMcLachlan.net and his books here on Amazon. Transcript of the interview Jo: Hello Travelers. I’m Joanna Penn, and today I’m here with Sean McLachlan. Hi Sean. Sean: Hey, Joanna. Jo: It’s great to have you on the show. Just a little introduction. Sean is a Canadian ex-archaeologist and the multi-award-winning author of history, travel, and fiction. His books include The Masked Man of Cairo Historical Detective series, the Moroccan Mysteries, and post-apocalyptic sci-fi series, Toxic World. Wow, lots there. Sean, you were just telling me how long you’ve been a full-time author? Sean: It’s my 25th anniversary this year as a matter of fact. Jo: That is just incredible. But before we get into that, tell us about your previous career in archaeology, because obviously I’m fascinated with it. Lots of people are. What is the reality of the archaeologist’s job? Are you really like Indiana Jones?! Sean: Well, not quite Indiana Jones. I worked for about 10 years in the Middle East and Eastern Europe, got a master’s degree. And it’s an amazing job actually. There’s a lot of meticulous excavation and fieldwork, surveying, a lot of lab work, and it is a lot of fun. I ended up shifting out of it because I didn’t like the academic side of it too much – the fighting for office space and funding and the petty backstabbing that you see in so many university departments. I really liked the fun stuff, which was the actual fieldwork. And as far as being Indiana Jones, well I never got shot at when I was in the field. I did get shot at by accident once when I was hiking in Arizona, but that’s a different story. And the only real danger was once there was a Palestinian Viper on the site when we were working in Tel Gezer in Israel, Which is this really nasty snake that the venom can kill you in 20 minutes. But we were working near a kibbutz and one of the kibbutz members had a tractor and ran it over. So that was the end of that problem. Jo: But just sort of coming back on, you said you didn’t like the academic side but you did enjoy the dig work and the lab work. So in my head, I know what dig work looks like from the movies, obviously. What did you do in the labs and — What time period were you working on? Sean: Well, I worked in several different time periods. The biggest site I worked at was Tel Gezer, which was an old archaeological site in Israel. And a tell is basically an artificial mound where people will build a settlement usually on high ground. And then people will build on those foundations and people will build. And after several thousand years, you end up with an artificial hill, which is all just archaeological deposits and you get this a lot throughout the Middle East and they’re called Tell, which is Arabic for Hill. And we were digging through that. And the main thing we were doing in those field seasons was we were working through an Egyptian governor’s palace when the Egyptians conquered the Levant. And so we found some nice hieroglyphics and all that. And also the city gate, which was commissioned by King Solomon. It’s actually mentioned in the Old Testament. So we’re working on that. And that was actually the second time I got in danger in archaeology, both at the same site because we had these things to either side of the gate called casemate walls, where you had an inner wall and an outer wall, and then a storage room in the center. And so we were digging down through the deposits to find all the stuff that was inside and somebody was working on the other side of the wall, and I’m about eight feet down. And this guy had found a big rock and he thought it was just a deposit. It was too big to move, so he was slamming at it with a sledgehammer, but what he didn’t realize, it was part of the wall. So I’m eight feet down with this not very stable wall above me of these giant stones, and suddenly it starts going boom, boom. Jo: Buried alive! Sean: Fastest I ever moved! I teleported out of that pit. I was just, one moment I’m in there and the other moment I’m about 10 feet away screaming my head off. Jo: And one of the tells I’ve been to is Megiddo, which is the biblical Armageddon. Sean: Megiddo is amazing. Jo: What got me into writing the types of things that we both write is The Source by James Michener, which of course is based on that. Sean: Well, I never worked at Megiddo. Michener’s book was amazing though. I read that in university and it was well worth reading. I actually read it in Bulgaria when I was on another excavation, and this was an interesting site because — One of the exciting things about archaeology is you never know what you’re going to find — and this site was on really high hill at this sharp turn of the Struma River, which runs through Bulgaria, down to Thessaloniki on the Greek coast. We’d seen some Roman deposits come out of there. So we thought we were going to get a Roman village or a villa on top of this high ground. So we start digging down and the first thing we come to is ash. And we keep digging. We get more and more ash and we’re getting all like black hands and everything is poofing up everywhere and we’re sneezing black. It’s terrible. And we went through about eight feet of this stuff and we asked around, and we found out that that had been a beacon from the Balkan Wars from 1912, because they were worried the Turks were going to come up the river valley and attack. And so this was to signal. So we got through that and then we found the Roman site. But it wasn’t a villa, it was several graves. So we excavated those and we looked down further to see if we’d find more graves. And in the end, actually, we found a very well preserved Bronze Age village. So we went through a good 3000 years of habitation from 1912 all the way back to 1500 BC. Jo: Wow. Sean: So that was a lot of fun. Jo: That is the romance of archaeology, right? That everybody thinks about. And then of course we both put that kind of stuff in our books now. But let’s talk about that because I wondered if you see things differently. I think when I went to Megiddo, I was kind of seeing the layers of story. You travel a lot and you also research these different areas of history. How do you look below the surface of what is there to find those stories underneath? Sean: Well, one of the interesting things about archaeological sites is thinking about the people that were there. I was at the Baths of Caracalla in Rome, these giant Roman baths, just a few weeks ago. And my favorite part, you’re going through these giant vaulted rooms. They’re still preserved 2000 years later, tile floors. Interesting little drains that are still there, like the drains are still there, so well preserved. But on this sort of marble seat next to one of the pools, somebody had carved the board for an old Roman board game. So these people were sitting there enjoying the caldarium. It’s all steamy and warm, and they’re playing a board game while they got their feet in the pool. I love that, those little details are always the best. And when often you see, when you pick up pieces of pottery where the potter has altered it a bit, just smooth things out, you’ll find their fingerprints or her fingerprints on there. So you got a 3000 year old fingerprint. Jo: I guess then you’re thinking about like who they were. It was really what you were just saying about the ash. That’s really interesting to me because the ash almost has no story because something was burnt there. But what you were saying gave it historical context and it loops back. Sean: Yeah. You’re right. And it looped back to the present day because I was there in ’93 just after the fall of communism. And the new government, which was democratic with a small D, was making it very clear to the Turkish minority that they might be better off moving back to Turkey. And so there was that whole tension. So while that was going on in town, we’re up there seeing the remnants of the last time those two sides had a war. Jo: Yeah, yeah. The historical perspective is so interesting. So one of the places you go a lot is to Egypt and you’ve got this Masked Man of Cairo series, and a lot of us do think, and on this show I’ve talked, we’ve talked about ancient Egypt, but you are writing about a different time period there. So tell us about that time period and what people might think differently. Tell us more about your interest in more modern Egypt Sean: I decided

48 min
08/28/2025

Facing Fears And Finding Resilience In Midlife: Long-Distance Walking With Zoe Langley-Wathen

Have you ever considered a radical change to mark a new chapter in your life? What fears hold you back from taking on a huge challenge, like walking for weeks on your own? Zoe Langley-Wathen talks about conquering her fears on the 630-mile South West Coast Path, and how it led to an even bigger goal: to walk the entire coastline of Great Britain. Zoe is the author of 630 Miles Braver: Midlifing on the South West Coast Path. She’s also a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, an award-winning teacher, and host of the HeadRightOut podcast. Why Zoe chose the South West Coast Path to mark a rite of passage into midlife The beautiful highlights and the brutal, challenging aspects of the 630-mile trail Overcoming fears of walking and wild camping solo Practical advice on training, managing physical pain, and preparing for a long walk How the experience built lasting resilience and changed her life trajectory Zoe’s next epic adventure with her husband: walking the 7,300-mile coastline of Great Britain You can find Zoe at HeadRightOut.com You can find my tips on long-distance multi-day solo walking in my book, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways, and more pilgrimage resources here. Transcript of the interview Jo: Hello Travellers, I’m Jo Frances Penn, and today I’m here with Zoe Langley-Wathen. Welcome, Zoe. Zoe: Hi Jo, thank you for having me. Jo: It’s great to have you on the show. Zoe is the author of 630 Miles Braver: Mid-life-ing on the South West Coast Path. She’s also a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, an award-winning teacher, and host of the HeadRightOut podcast. Where is the South West Coast Path, how long is it, and why did you decide to walk it for a significant birthday? Zoe: Thank you for having me on. The clue is in the title, 630 Miles Braver. The path is 630 miles long, or 1,014 kilometres. It starts at Minehead on the south-west tip of England and travels all the way down to the toe of Cornwall, where you’ll find Land’s End. It then continues along the coast of Cornwall, Devon, and Dorset, finishing at Poole Harbour, the second largest natural harbour in the world. For people who need to locate it geographically, Minehead is about 60 miles or an hour and three-quarters south-west of Bristol. As for why I did it, it was to mark a rite of passage into midlife. Around 2010, I had a moment of what felt like divine intervention in a bookshop in Wells, Somerset. I walked in and there was a book on a shelf, and I swear there was a shaft of light shining on it: the South West Coast Path Handbook. I had been searching for a path for a long time to mark this rite of passage. I’d considered Kilimanjaro or the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu, but none of them resonated. This one just clicked, because I had wanted to do it for about 15 years but never thought myself capable. I thought only gritty, athletic, strong people did the South West Coast Path, not me. I just didn’t think I was enough in any capacity. Suddenly, it was like a lightbulb had been switched on. I grabbed the book, paid for it, and thought, ‘Right, I’m going to do this. I don’t know how, but I’ll figure it out.’ And I did sort out figure it out along the way. Jo: You said you were ‘searching for a path for a long time,’ which is a really interesting phrase. You’d considered more iconic places, but felt a sense of calling to this one. I feel like I had that for the Camino de Santiago for a really long time. What do you think it is in us as humans that makes us search for a path? Zoe: That’s an interesting question. I’m not sure it’s necessarily a path that is calling us, but rather a need to make sense of our lives. Turning 40 or 50 is a pivot point in our lives where we might need to re-identify with ourselves. For a long time, I had been ‘mum’ and ‘teacher,’ completely immersed in work. For me, it was about challenging myself to do something I didn’t think I was capable of something out of the ordinary. I also wanted to fundraise to make it serve a purpose. But really, whether I was conscious of it or not, I was searching for another side of myself—a stronger version of me. Jo: It seems at midlife we often want to make a change. With a long walk that takes weeks, you have to plan for a literal pivot in your life, like taking a whole summer off. Is the scale of that commitment part of the appeal? It takes, what a month, to six weeks to walk it? Zoe: It took me 48 days to do it. I knew I was going to be scared ’cause I was scared. I was definitely fearful. By announcing it at the school where I was working, to friends and family, and even in assemblies, I created accountability. There was no backing out. I knew it was a challenge that felt out of reach, and I think that’s what I was looking for. Taking a week off work feels less momentous than a challenge that is going to take six or seven weeks, and doing it solo. I discovered I was carrying a lot of fears in my rucksack that I perhaps didn’t realise I had. These paths have a way of exposing all sorts of hangups and interesting thoughts, but they also help you sort things out. It can be problems or creative ideas; it was certainly magical for that. Jo: You can deny your problems and escape yourself for a week, but not for six or seven weeks, and all the challenges along the way. Let’s circle back to challenge. Let’s start with what were some of the most beautiful and memorable sections, and I guess we should say that as we record this in 2025, the film version of The Salt Path is out, which is set along the same coastal path and the book by Raynor Winn. You can certainly see some of these amazing sections. What were some of the most beautiful and memorable sections for you? Zoe: There are so many on the South West Coast Path, it’s really hard to choose. But I lived in Dorset for 30 years, so I have to say the Jurassic Coast, which is about 96 miles from Exmouth to Poole, is absolutely beautiful. [I walked part of this from Lyme Regis to Seaton.] The geology, the stunning scenery, the rollercoaster paths… they challenge you to your core, but they are absolutely, exquisitely beautiful. It’s hard to believe that nature has produced something so fabulous. I also really connected with the ruggedness of North Devon and Cornwall, particularly around Bude in North Cornwall and Zennor, which is down towards Land’s End. The quaintness of the cottages, the interest of the architecture, the churches… there’s a church on a beach, the Church of St. Winwaloe at Gunwalloe, also known as the Church of the Cove. That absolutely blew me away because it’s so tucked away in the most remote place. I love architecture, but I love nature as well. One more place that blew me away was the Minack Theatre, which is near Porthcurno. It was built by a lady named Rowena Cade and her gardener, starting in the 1930s. She worked on it for about 50 years until she died in the 1980s. I should say that I don’t like heights, and climbing down the narrow, steep steps carrying a full pack scared me, but it still wowed me. It left me in awe how somebody could dedicate their whole life to something that is now such an iconic feature of the Cornish landscape. Anyone performing there is performing with the backdrop of the sea behind them. Jo: Just to be clear, everyone, it’s on the coast at the edge of the coast, right? So you’re looking out to sea. Obviously it’s called the Coast Path, are you within sight of the sea the entire time? Zoe: I’d like to say yes, but no. I mean, mostly you are. Mostly, so wherever possible they try and keep the path as close to the sea as they can. But obviously for erosion reasons, that’s not always possible and safety reasons. Sometimes they have to reroute you inland. So yeah, there are moments – well, I say moments, miles – there will be miles through woodland and estates where it takes you into kind of very leafy green areas where you do not see the sea maybe for a whole day. But generally you do see the sea. And to be honest, if you don’t see the sea. Sometimes you are – well, generally you’re going to find things that are of great interest anyway. So whether it’s plants, whether it’s wildlife, buildings. One of those stretches, there was another church actually, within the first couple of days, a little church called Culbone and it’s in a valley. You just wander down into the dip through the woods. Lots of little holloways and brick built bridges from the Victorian times. But then you get down to this church and it’s a tiny church and I think it housed a leper colony many, many years ago. But it’s just very olde worlde. You would love it, Jo. The tombs and the gravestones that are covered in all the lichens and the mosses. It paints a very antiquated picture and it is beautiful. Just a nice energy there. Jo: For people who don’t really know England, there are some stereotypes, obviously. I guess the weather would be one thing, but also perhaps people think, ‘oh, it’s all quaint,’ so what are the more stormy aspects or the bits where it’s just like, okay, this is actually wild? Because some of that coast was famous for pirates and rocks. It’s not a gentle coastline really, is it? It can be quite violent with weather and waves. Zoe: Very far from it. Violent, brutal, challenging. Steep steps are built generally by volunteers, so very often they might not be of a standard height, so do be prepared for some steps to be even thigh height. So it is almost like climbing up them. That’s where walking poles come in handy. I found that having a pair of walking poles meant that I could lean on something. It takes the pressure off your knees. They say it takes up to 25% of the strain off your knees, but particularly useful when you’re going down steps like that. A lot of cliff paths

47 min
08/14/2025

Writing Partition: Merryn Glover on History, Home, and the Hill Stations Of India

How does a childhood spent in the Himalayas of Nepal and India shape a life and a love for the mountains of Scotland? How can fiction help us understand the complex, painful history of India’s Partition? I discuss all this and more with the award-winning author, Merryn Glover. Merryn’s nomadic “third culture kid” upbringing with missionary parents in Nepal and India The experience of attending an international boarding school in a North Indian hill station. The history of Indian Hill Stations like Mussoorie, from their origins in the British Raj to modern-day holiday destinations. Weaving the complex history of India’s Independence and Partition into her novel, A House Called Askival. The perspective of writing about India as both an insider to the international community and an outsider to the wider culture. How her childhood in the Himalayas influenced her love for her current home in the mountains of Scotland. Recommended travel books You can find Merryn at MerrynGlover.com Transcript of the interview Jo: Hello Travelers. I’m Jo Frances Penn, and today I’m here with Merryn Glover, who is an award-winning author of fiction, nature writing, plays, and short stories. Welcome, Merryn. Merryn: Hi there. Thank you for having me. Jo: It’s great to have you on. You were born in Kathmandu and brought up in Nepal, India, and Pakistan. You have an Australian passport and call Scotland home after living there for over 30 years. Tell us more about that. How did travel form such a backdrop to your life? Merryn: Essentially, because my parents were working in South Asia, that’s how I came to be born and brought up there. It very much was my life. Up until I was 18 and moved back to Australia to go to university, my father estimated that we’d probably moved 60 times. Some of those moves were backwards and forwards to the same locations or the same house, but it was very itinerant. In a lot of those locations, I didn’t necessarily have my own bedroom; it might be the curtained-off end of a living room, or I was often sharing with my big brother. It was very nomadic and it was just the life that we had. As a child, of course, you don’t think your life is unusual. It’s just the life that you have, and it’s only later on that you realize it is quite different to most people, particularly once I was back at university in Australia. Jo: What did your parents do that you traveled so much? Merryn: They were missionaries, in the old language, if you like, which tends to bring people out in hives. They were working in linguistics, literacy, and Bible translation, primarily amongst one of the language groups in Nepal, but ultimately in quite a lot of locations in India and Pakistan as well. They were working a lot with local churches, local Christians, and in a lot of training, enabling them in their own literacy and linguistic work. Jo: It’s incredible how much travel there is involved in that. When you remember being a kid, given you were moving around so much… I went to school in Malawi, in Africa for a while, and I don’t really remember it being different, as you said. How did you feel? Did you feel different? Did you go to random schools? How was that experience? Merryn: It was very varied. For the first seven years of my childhood, my parents spent a lot of time in a village in the hills of Nepal, and my mother homeschooled us when we were there. She was a qualified primary school teacher, so that obviously helped. She taught my brother and myself out on the veranda of the home that we lived in, in the village, for only a couple of hours every morning. After that, we were pretty free to roam and play. When we were in places like Kathmandu, there were often small, mission-run schools that we attended, and you had quite an international mix of kids at those schools. Then when I was nine, I followed my brother to a boarding school in North India, in the mountains, and I was there till I was 18. Interestingly, although boarding school means that you are away from your parents (and a lot of the time you are, and you’re dealing with homesickness and that sense of displacement), for some of the time, one or both of them were based where the school was, and we were day scholars. On the other hand, being there for nine years, it became a place of continuity and consistency. It became like an extended family and a community, which I’m still incredibly close to. I’m still really close to those friends and a lot of the staff. It is this most extraordinary and very international community of people that I got to know through that school. Jo: How interesting that you’re still close to them. And then you said you went back to Australia when you were 18. Did you just think everyone was so boring and provincial, or were you just wanting to be normal? Merryn: We were based in Melbourne when I went back to university, and Melbourne is a very metropolitan city. For my parents’ leave, every three or four years, we would go back to Australia for anything from a few months to about 18 months when my dad was completing his PhD in Canberra. Through the National University, there was accommodation for international students, and we were actually accommodated there. That was great for me because there were all these kids from Africa and India and so on running around in a big shared back garden. The primary school I went to in Canberra was in the area where all the embassies are, so again, it was relatively international by Australian standards. But arriving back for university at age 18, university is a good time to make a transition because you’ve got a slightly more diverse mix of people. You’ve got mature age students and a fair international mix because that’s what Melbourne is like. You have people with varying degrees of relationship to Australia because of their own family heritage. Some of them more recently moved, some of them their families have been in Australia for generations, but they still have a strong Greek identity or whatever else it might be. I was still probably one of the people with the weirdest accent. People thought I was American, which is partly because of the school I went to in India; there was a strong American influence in weird ways. It was an American-Indian accent mix; I don’t think any American would’ve owned it. Then some people thought I was Irish. But at university, partly because of the course I did – drama, dance, and English – being different was quite cool at that stage. People just thought it was fascinating and wanted to find out more about it. In contrast, friends I know who made that transition back to their parents’ country when they were 13 or 14 had a really hard time because that’s when you don’t want to be different. That’s when you really want to fit in and look and sound like everybody else. That is a really difficult time to change. So, for me, it was a good time to transition. Jo: I’m really interested in this because my mum brought us back from Malawi when I was going into senior school, so I was about 11 or 12. As you were saying, 13 is a difficult time. For people listening who are thinking, “I want to travel with kids,” or “I want to go live somewhere else”… Looking back, I’m grateful for my time away; it was all positive in my mind. Do you look back and think it was all amazing, or were there things that stick out in your mind as a terrible challenge? What can we do to encourage people to live somewhere else with children? Merryn: I look back and I’m very thankful for most of it. I think most of it was an extraordinary privilege. Boarding school is a very mixed experience wherever you are, and that’s something that I explore in the book we’ll be talking about later, as quite a bit of it is set in a fictionalized version of the boarding school I went to. Although there were lots of things I loved about the school and I still love that community of friends that I’m very close to, just being away from your own family for that length of time when you’re still growing up is never going to be ideal. But to encourage people, yes, it’s a wonderful thing to give children, if you can: the experience of other places and other cultures. It’s very different now. When I was a teenager in India — I was born in 1969 — there was no internet. The only way you could keep up with fashion or music was when friends went back to America or Europe for their holidays and came back with cassette tapes or new clothes. There was a much greater gulf between my experience and that of my peers back in Australia, which in many ways, I was quite thankful for. I wasn’t brought up around television, and my life was much more about the context and the culture I was in, and the extraordinary beautiful places I lived in. Whereas today, kids are not cut off wherever you take them. You’ve got the internet and access to their home culture, and they can speak easily to their grandparents or friends. In a sense, that’s almost a threat because it can prevent you from really embracing the place you go to if you’re too connected to home. I sometimes feel sorry for people that travel these days because there might be this pressure to share everything on social media. Maybe we don’t give ourselves the opportunity to really soak up the place we’re in, to absorb it, enjoy it, and relate to the people you’re meeting on the ground, rather than being so constantly connected to everybody back home. There are real pros and cons now. But I would definitely say to families that it’s a really rich experience. I’ve been interested in listening to this podcast in particular, where you’ve talked to people about the ‘third culture kid’ experience and people bringing up their own children in other cultures. There is now a huge amount of resource to help families navigate that in ways that

44 min
08/07/2025

British Pilgrimage: On This Holy Island With Oliver Smith

What makes a place sacred, and can you find spiritual transformation without traveling thousands of miles? Why do ordinary English villages and Scottish islands continue to draw seekers from around the world? Award-winning travel writer Oliver Smith talks about British pilgrimage sites from Lindisfarne to Iona, and Walsingham to Glastonbury, and how these ancient places still draw even secular pilgrims today. Oliver Smith is a multi award-winning travel writer and author of The Atlas of Abandoned Places, and On This Holy Island: A Modern Pilgrimage Across Britain. The double lives of pilgrimage places, and how ordinary locations can offer transcendent experiences Lindisfarne’s tidal causeway The tension between commercial tourism and genuine spiritual seeking at sacred sites Iona’s remote Scottish island setting and the challenging journey required to reach it Walsingham’s remarkable history from medieval powerhouse to modern multicultural pilgrimage destination Why Glastonbury might be Britain’s best pilgrimage The philosophy of traveling deeper not further, and finding extraordinary meaning in familiar places You can find Oli at OliverSmithTravel.com You can find more Pilgrimage Resources here, as well as my book, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways. Transcript of the interview Jo: Hello Travelers. I’m Jo Frances Penn, and today I’m here with Oliver Smith. Hi Oli. Oli: Hello, how are you doing? Jo: Oh, it’s great to have you on the show. Just a little introduction. Oli is a multi award-winning travel writer and author of The Atlas of Abandoned Places, and On This Holy Island: A Modern Pilgrimage Across Britain, which we are talking about today. It’s a fantastic book. Now, Oli, I wanted to get straight into it. So you say in the book, although you’ve traveled all over the world, you say quote from the book, “What interested me now were those places that promised a kind of travel beyond what could be charted on an ink or pixel map.” So I wondered if you could start with that, because you’ve been to all these tick list travel places. What about those that are these soulful journeys? Oli: I guess what really interests me is that a lot of these places that feature in the book, they sort of live double lives, you know? If I pick one at random, or one near where you are in the country. If we think about Glastonbury for example, it’s fascinating because people go there with such huge expectation. For some people it’s a place that unlocks other worlds to them. The tor might be a portal to some world of the fairies or some world of Arthurian legend, or it might be something to do with Joseph of Arimathea. Jesus Christ walking in Somerset and that old legend, you know, so much is invested in it. Yet at the same time, Glastonbury is a place where if you go to the high street, there’s a Boots. There is a pub selling the usual repertoire of lagers and warm beers and Nobby’s Nuts behind the bar, you know, these places. I think all of them, to some degree in the book, they are ordinary, mundane places that people live in and people pass by every day. But then they offer, they promise a kind of an extra level, which is detectable to some people and isn’t to others. So it is that kind of duality. I think what really interested me when I was writing this book. Jo: Yeah, and I guess, well it’s almost a bigger question because when you look at your career as a travel writer and you mentioned their expectation, which I think is a fantastic word for so much of travel, you could pick any of the tick list places in the world and say, well, you know, that would be amazing. And then perhaps it’s not. I always think of Venice because I went to Venice one winter and it flooded and it stank and it was meant to be amazing, but it wasn’t. So I did really just wonder like — Why write a pilgrimage book when you have traveled so many wonderful places? Oli: I think one thing that can be said about all the places I’ve visited in this book is that there are places where you learn an awful lot about humanity and the human condition. People often gravitate to pilgrimage places at these kind of weightless moments of their lives when they’re sort of on a hinge. Perhaps they’ve lost someone who is dear to them. Perhaps they’ve been made redundant. Perhaps they’re looking for direction, they’re going through a rite of passage. But they are often people who are quick to tell you their story. They’re quick to open their heart. And I found myself getting in such deep and involving and fascinating conversations with people. I think my pilgrimage book is possibly a little bit different to a lot of the other ones that are out there. It’s not really about me. I’m more of a kind of witness perhaps. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that these places didn’t have some magic that I felt on some level. But I think it is primarily about looking at these 12 places, sort of different characters as well as being character places – they are rich in characters themselves. So yeah, I think you will have the best conversations if you go to wherever it might be. Walsingham on a pilgrimage day, or Stonehenge solstice or whatever it might be. Jo: Well one of the places that you went is Lindisfarne and I love that you slept in the rescue box. Now I’ve walked across the sands. It was one of the highlights of the St. Cuthbert’s Way. I had just a wonderful time. Tell us about the crossing to Lindisfarne Oli: I think what makes Lindisfarne really interesting is its geography. That tidal element to Lindisfarne is something that’s not entirely unique, because you also get it at St. Michael’s Mount. You also get it at a couple of Holy Islands in the Severn Estuary, I think as well. But on that scale, the idea of taking a walk of three miles across a path that twice a day is completely submerged, is quite a wonderful thing. And I wrote in the book that I think that path has many lessons. The idea that you only have a finite amount of time. The idea that you need to make the best of that time, that’s something that’s instructive for life on a much bigger level. But I think probably what’s more interesting is the element of vulnerability there. You know, the idea that you are walking across the sea and the sea will be coming back for you very shortly, and you run the risk every time you step onto that path. And it’s fascinating how there’s this sort of perpetual drumbeat through the summer of stories of people getting stuck on the causeway. It can be someone who often has got some quite flashy car and they think they can go straight through it. And then they go in the drink sort of halfway across. It’s also quite often people who are from countries where there aren’t tides. So people from central Europe, even the Mediterranean, you know, people sort of drive halfway across the causeway and they think it’s a car parking space, and they go for a little wander and they come back and the sea’s risen again. And suddenly their car is steering wheel deep in water. But there’s so much biblical symbology in that, you know, the idea of the floods, the idea of the seas parting for Moses. I think all of that kind of echoes very slightly around the Lindisfarne Causeway, both the tarmac road and the Pilgrims Way. I think all those things are important. I mean, I guess the other thing to say is the start of it all, Saint Aidan chose Lindisfarne because of this tidal rhythm. Because there’s these hours where the island is closed off from the world and the monks there would be in their solitude. They would be praying. And then there are those hours where the door opens in a way and they can go out into the world. They can spread the word. So it’s not an accident that the monastery is situated there. I think the one thing that is absolutely extraordinary about Lindisfarne that just doesn’t get spoken about enough is that almost every weekend or every other weekend in summer. Maybe that’s a bit too much. Maybe every other weekend or once a month, something like that, a car will go under in the causeway and these people will be in the car. The water will be going up, they’ll be calling the RNLI, they’ll probably be in a panic. RNLI will turn up in their lifeboat and then they’ll fish them out and they’ll go back to the sea houses and their car will be absolutely kaput. And there’s even a cottage industry. There’s a little garage by the causeway that seems to – I mean, it seemed to me that their business was essentially going out there, picking up the car and dragging it back. But in living memory, there’s no record of anyone ever having drowned. You see how fast that water moves and you see how dangerous it can be. And you can see how clueless people are. And there were a few people who did sort of weigh it over in their minds and say to me, well, there is, that is almost miraculous. The fact that nobody has ever come a cropper there in living memory, or even, I think even longer than that. I think there was sort of a muttering of something happened a hundred years ago. But it’s quite extraordinary how that’s the case. Jo: So I gotta come back to the box. Because we can picture this in our mind. So just explain what the walk looks like and what is the box and the poles and everything. Walker on the sands crossing away from Lindisfarne Photo by JFPenn Oli: Sure, sure. Sorry, I got carried away there. So you go across the causeway and say you’re going out at low tide, it sort of looks almost like a little bit of a desert. And then you’ve got the two routes, the Pilgrims Way, which is the walking path, which sort of goes in a straight line, and then the metal causeway, which is for cars. And on both of them you find these shelters. On the Pilgrims Way, it almost looks a bit like a tree house without a tree as it were

33 min
07/24/2025

Touching History: The Ancient Craft Of Stonemasonry With Andrew Ziminski

What is it like to work on ancient English churches, cathedrals and stone monuments? How does stone, a symbol of permanence, change over centuries? In this interview, I explore the craft of stonemasonry with church conservator Andrew Ziminski. Andrew Ziminski is a stonemason and church conservator with decades of experience working on some of the greatest cathedrals and churches in Britain. He’s also the author of The Stonemason: A History of Building Britain and Church Going: A Stone Mason’s Guide to the Churches of the British Isles. The ancient craft of stonemasonry and how the tools have remained unchanged for millennia How stone is damaged over time by settlement, weather, and even the metal used to build with The defining features of Gothic architecture, a movement focused on light and colour, not darkness Why the “Green Man” carvings in churches are Christian symbols of resurrection, not pagan figures How ancient churches can feel imbued with the atmosphere of centuries of human experience You can find Andrew at MinervaConservation.com. You can find my articles and photos of Gothic Cathedrals here. Transcript of the interview Jo: Hello Travelers. I’m Jo Frances Penn, and today I’m here with Andrew Ziminski. Hi Andy. Andy: Hello, Jo. Jo: Yes, absolutely. So just a little introduction. Andrew is a stonemason and church conservator with decades of experience working on some of the greatest cathedrals and churches in Britain. He’s also the author of The Stonemason: A History of Building Britain and Church Going: A Stone Mason’s Guide to the Churches of the British Isles. I’m a fan and I have the books right here if you are watching the video. I love them. So thank you so much for coming on today, Andy, I want to get straight into it because — Part of why I love churches and cathedrals is this sense of timelessness, of being small against the backdrop of history. How does it feel for you when you are working on these ancient buildings, doing this ancient craft? Andy: Well, in theory, I should be getting bored of it, I mean, I’ve been doing it so long, but anything but. My interest seems to grow with every project that we work on. We pretty much only work on ancient churches, medieval bridges, and the odd castle every now and again. There’s always something new to discover, be it a particularly local school of carvers or a type of medieval graffiti that I see carved into the piers of a particular church. There are so many regional variations in the British Isles, in terms of architecture and materials and the approach of the people who built these places, that I’m always sniffing them out. And as I understand more, it makes me want to understand even more, if that doesn’t sound too crazy. I think the day I’ll stop nosing around these places will be my last one on the planet. Jo: Well hopefully not falling off some spire. Didn’t you work on Salisbury Spire? Andy: Yeah, I started my training at Salisbury. I went to a local stonemasonry college because our part of England, the Southwest, is renowned for its building stones. There used to be a very excellent stonemasonry college at Weymouth on the coast in Dorset. From there I went up to the top of the tower, not the spire, but the tower, which is the square section that supports the octagonal base of the spire which is 404 feet tall and the tallest medieval structure in Europe that’s still in its original condition. It’s pretty amazing. Jo: It is. Salisbury is amazing. And you mentioned ancient churches, so some people listening might be in places where they don’t have such ancient architecture as we have. What timeframe are you talking about when you say ancient churches? Andy: The oldest church I’ve worked on is in Bradford-on-Avon in Wiltshire, again in the Southwest. That was built around the year 1000, and anything from then onwards really. I tend to switch off with Victorian churches because I’m not really that interested in them. Victorian churches in the UK are generally Victorian interpretations of earlier medieval forms, and I think I might as well just study the medieval form and not the Victorian fakes. Even though their craftwork is excellent. Very often in the churches that we work on, we’re very close to the city of Bath, as you know, it is absolutely groaning with Roman ruins. It’s not unusual to see Roman material that the Anglo-Saxons reused in their walls or as part of their altars. I’ve done lots of work in the Roman baths in Bath, so I’d say the earliest structure I’ve worked on is the West Kennet Long Barrow, which was built about 3000 BC and has its own postcode. So I’ve worked on a building that’s 5000 years old, and that was quite incredible. Jo: It is incredible. And just again, coming back to this ancient craft, because the stonemasonry is also ancient. Obviously the people who built these things were stonemasons. How did you decide to get into this, because most people don’t go into stonemasonry? It’s not a growing profession. It’s so fascinating that you chose this direction. Andy: Well, a number of factors came into play. My father came here as a refugee during the war. The only options for him as a job were going down the coal mine or working as a stonemason in a granite quarry. We used to go to Scotland and I liked the permanency of the things he made. He was Polish and he’d say, “Son, this will last for a million years,” and they probably will, because they’re built of granite. So I quite liked the permanency of that from a young age. And I’ve always had a deep interest in history. I thought, how can I draw together the worlds of craft and history? Going down the path I knew a little about from my father seemed like a good way. And 35 – 40 years on, I haven’t looked back. Jo: I do find it fascinating. I went and did a weekend of stone carving and so I did actually use some of the tools and boy, my body hurt! What about the physicality of what you do? This is hard material. Is it very physical or is a lot of what you do now with chemicals or how does the job work? Andy: I’m a conservator first and foremost, and what that means is that my aim is to keep as much of the original as possible. It’s like dentistry, I guess. If there’s a cavity, and the stone around the cavity or the rot is okay, I will fill it using a lime mortar, which is a very ancient technique that the Romans used. You can’t lift a quarter-of-a-ton-sized piece of stone, you’ve got to use kit. Many people are surprised when I’m on site and my colleagues, half of them are women. Very often I find that women make better stonemasons than some of my more gung-ho male colleagues who just want to bust their backs and destroy their bodies by lifting things they shouldn’t lift. The tools that we use are unchanged since Roman times or even ancient Egyptian times. The head of my dummy is made of nylon, but the ancient Egyptians used mallets made of palm trees turned on a lathe. So, the materials might be different, but the tools, the form of the tools, the approach, and the mindset are exactly the same. The way I would approach cutting a block of stone is not in any way different to someone who was cutting a limestone block for the Great Pyramid, or in the Roman Baths in Bath, or in the Colosseum, or at Notre Dame. This is a sort of brilliant handing on of the baton over the generations that goes unnoticed, and I like that about craft skills. Jo: Are young people coming into it? Is there another generation? Because I feel like that kind of craftsmanship – Are we losing this kind of craftsmanship or is it still here? Andy: No, there’s stonemasons in every hedge round here because it’s a stony area. The local stonemasonry college in Bath is really good. There’s no shortage of youngsters coming through at all. It’s different in other parts of the country where there isn’t such a strong tradition. But certainly around here in Southwest Britain, Southern Britain, and in London, there are lots of stonemasons. But there are other crafts that are suffering from a demise in interest, mainly because people don’t know that these jobs exist, and I think that’s a big problem. I spent all last week at the Chalke Valley History Festival, educating young people that it’s possible to earn a living that’s good for your soul, good for your body, and good for society by undertaking a traditional craft, be that a stonemason, an oak carpenter, or a stone slater. All church roofs need stone slaters, and that’s an area where there is a real shortage. If you want to become a millionaire in years, become a church stone slater. Jo: But then, you love the stone now, I guess. Andy: Yeah, I mean, ’cause our business is tiny, there’s just eight of us and we just go from job to job. We’ve had to become generalists so we can carve pretty much anything. We could rebuild any vault we could repair a hole in a wall and plaster it up. We’ve got a broad range of skills, but we’re not specific and in the craft of ow masonry. There are lots of different areas you can be, you can focus on being a letter cutter, for example, and just do headstones or memorials or you could be a sculptor, of some sort. Or you could be what they call a Banker Mason. You’re just in a workshop making components to be fitted into a church or a fixer mason. But we sort of have to do all of that. So we’re a bit slower than the people who choose to specifically focus on one of those types of tasks. Jo: I’m also interested because when I was attracted to this whole area and Gothic cathedrals, it was this sense of things lasting. We think of stone as something that doesn’t change, and it’s used as a metaphor for unchanging and unyielding, and yet your very job is fixing stone. What changes and damages stone over time? What are you fixing? Andy: Settlement within th

38 min

See All (110)

4.9

out of 5

60 Ratings

Inspiring

12/29/2020

Tracey Devlyn

After listening to Jo’s interviews, I add a new item to my bucket list each time. I look forward to the moment when we’re able to travel again so I can fill my creative well.
Fascinating interviews and discussions

06/22/2019

Lesliesyk

I've been listening to Joanna Penn on her other podcast since last summer, and I was excited to check out this new podcast.... because I love books and travel, too! And she doesn't disappoint. Joanna is a keen observer and has so many interests that every interview or discussion is super interesting.
Love Joanna, love Jo Frances.

04/04/2019

TarahBenzy

I have been listening to The Creative Penn podcast since...2012? I listened to her before I was an author, and she gave me hope as a confused college student trying to figure out my life. I listen to her now that I am a full-time author, and she gives me much-needed encouragement weekly. To get to experience this more personal side of her is truly wonderful. It is so neat to hear more about her life and gain insight into her experiences. Thank you, Joanna! You are a treasure.
Stunning poetic potential

04/02/2019

Benjamin Douglas, authir

The first episode of Books and Travel is a veritable poem of experience and meaning. J Penn has a winner on her hands in her solo episodes, where she seams together a narrative of places and memory to shine light, apparently, on what makes her her (and you you, and me me). Mileage may vary for interview episodes depending on the guest. There are two faces to this show so far. On one side, the near-spiritual literary tale of place; on the other, tips on where to find the best Sangria. I hope the former wins over the latter more often than it does in the first 4 episodes. In any event, Penn is a delightful host, always a pleasure to listen to, and longtime fans of The Creative Penn should take pleasure in this more contemplative, meditative presentation. Moments of sheer beauty. Can’t wait for more!

Unusual and fascinating places alongside the deeper aspects of travel

Creator

Jo Frances Penn
Years Active

2019 - 2025
Episodes

110
Rating

Clean
Show Website

Books And Travel

Places & Travel

Places & Travel

Updated Weekly

Books And Travel

Alchemical History And Beautiful Architecture: Prague With Lisa M Lilly

Blood, Wine, And Sacrifice: Folk Horror Inspired By England’s Biodynamic Vineyards With J.F. Penn And Natalie MacLean

Mexico’s Day Of The Dead With Luisa Navarro

Egypt Beyond the Pyramids And Glimpsing The Future In History With Sean McLachlan

Facing Fears And Finding Resilience In Midlife: Long-Distance Walking With Zoe Langley-Wathen

Writing Partition: Merryn Glover on History, Home, and the Hill Stations Of India

British Pilgrimage: On This Holy Island With Oliver Smith

Touching History: The Ancient Craft Of Stonemasonry With Andrew Ziminski

Inspiring

Fascinating interviews and discussions

Love Joanna, love Jo Frances.

Stunning poetic potential

About

Information

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Books And Travel

Episodes

Alchemical History And Beautiful Architecture: Prague With Lisa M Lilly

Blood, Wine, And Sacrifice: Folk Horror Inspired By England’s Biodynamic Vineyards With J.F. Penn And Natalie MacLean

Mexico’s Day Of The Dead With Luisa Navarro

Egypt Beyond the Pyramids And Glimpsing The Future In History With Sean McLachlan

Facing Fears And Finding Resilience In Midlife: Long-Distance Walking With Zoe Langley-Wathen

Writing Partition: Merryn Glover on History, Home, and the Hill Stations Of India

British Pilgrimage: On This Holy Island With Oliver Smith

Touching History: The Ancient Craft Of Stonemasonry With Andrew Ziminski

Ratings & Reviews

About

Information

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