Unraveling Religion

Joel Lesses
  • 5.0 (5)
  • Spirituality
  • Updated Monthly

These mystical and practical discussions are explorations of spirituality and its relation to religion and psychology, with questions always. Beyond a specific religion or spiritual practice; what do we share, what do we have in common? These talks are a work in progress evolving our rich inner life, including reflections on religious texts, poems, art, and what is common in our human experience enhancing understanding of our relationships: with ourselves, with one another, and with the world we share. Unraveling Religion has developed a cross-collaboration with both Lisa Carley's The Labyrinth podcast and Henry Cretella's Alchemical Dialogues podcast, cross-posting episodes both 'Selected, Best of The Labyrinth' podcast and 'Selected, Best of Alchemical Dialogues' podcast episodes, periodically.

  1. Mar 24

    Part 2 The World As A Garden and, We, The Gardeners; The Relationship of Nature and Human Beings, An Examination of the Question 'What am I?': A Panel Discussion

    Part 2 continues panel discussion by exploring the lived experience of unity, spirituality, and what it means to feel 'at home' in the universe, beginning with reflections on whether healing and awakening dissolve the sense of separation. Andy, drawing from his 12-step recovery background, describes spirituality as a relationship with a higher power understood personally, sharing that his connection takes shape through Christian symbolism rooted in his upbringing. He emphasizes that this framework is not exclusive, but a language through which he experiences alignment, meaning, and a sense that everything in existence is placed in right relationship. Central to his path is humility—learning to recognize value in all people and to move beyond ego-driven identity. The conversation expands into spiritual awakening as both gradual and sudden, drawing on William James’ distinction between 'educational' awakenings and sudden insight, with participants noting that suffering, hindsight, and breakthrough moments all contribute to a growing awareness of interconnectedness. Themes of non-separation emerge across traditions, including Zen and Advaita Vedanta, where suffering is understood as rooted in the illusion of a separate self, and healing arises through re-experiencing unity—both psychologically and physically in the body. Humility as a balance between recognizing higher forces and maintaining personal agency The idea that all relationships—including with the divine—are reciprocal rather than one-directional A Sufi perspective, influenced by Inayat Khan, describing the universe as moving toward love, harmony, and beauty The concept of a 'pull of the future' shaping evolution alongside past causes Parallels to scientific ideas of uncertainty and unfolding potential within the universe Joel offers a complementary perspective on karma, rooted in mystical traditions, emphasizing that every thought, action, and intention generates corresponding effects that return 'measure for measure,' shaping future experience. He frames reality as an interplay between seen and unseen dimensions, where intentionality—especially loving-kindness—acts as a generative force. The panel reflects on the interplay of karma, grace, randomness, and free will, suggesting that human life unfolds within a dynamic system of influence and choice, where individuals both shape and are shaped by experience. Closing reflections highlight the importance of shared inquiry and spiritual community, with participants emphasizing that these conversations create space for meaningful exploration beyond solitary practice. The discussion concludes with a Zen teaching offered by Joel, pointing to the enduring challenge of ethical living—avoiding harm and cultivating virtue—not as abstract ideals, but as practices that must be lived moment to moment.

    37 min

  2. Mar 24

    Part 1 The World As A Garden and, We, The Gardeners; The Relationship of Nature and Human Beings, An Examination of the Question 'What am I?': A Panel Discussion

    Part 1  Alchemical Dialogues and Unraveling Religion co-hosts Joel Lesses and Henry Cretella convene a panel exploring spirituality, recovery, philosophy, and science through lived experience, centered on the theme of transformation as an embodied, ongoing process. Ben, a therapist and former addiction counselor, reflects on his journey through trauma, psychosis, and recovery, including an ego death experience that reframed his life through the lens of rebirth. He describes moving from feeling unsafe in his body to cultivating grounding through breath and meditation. Andrew, trained in physics, shares his experiences with bipolar disorder, atheism, and long-term substance use, ultimately finding recovery and a return to a sense of inner peace, identifying addiction as an attempt to fill a deeper spiritual void. Rich Grego, a philosopher and Professor of religion and metaphysics, introduces his scholarly background while emphasizing his continued existential questioning, highlighting the gap between intellectual understanding and lived spiritual experience. Henry Cretella, a psychiatrist influenced by Inayat Khan, describes a syncretic approach to spirituality, drawing from multiple traditions while seeking a unifying thread, and challenges the idea of 'pure' traditions by pointing to nature as inherently evolving and interconnected. Joel builds on this by referencing Eihei Dogen’s idea of 'many languages, one tongue,' suggesting that different traditions express a shared source, and introduces the central inquiry 'What am I?' as a core spiritual question. The discussion explores addiction as existential longing, reframing the restless search for meaning as a potential catalyst for transformation, and examines the relationship between humans and nature, questioning whether any true separation exists. Joel emphasizes language as a uniquely human capacity that shapes reality, while Henry dissolves the distinction between humans and nature, asserting that all phenomena arise from the same natural processes. Themes of unity and non-dual awareness emerge, with connection understood as internal rather than dependent on external conditions, and Ben reflecting that true connection can be found even in solitude. Joel introduces the metaphor of the world as a garden, drawing on teachings associated with Menachem Mendel Schneerson, describing humans as caretakers responsible for cultivating and tending both inner and outer life.

    27 min

  3. 12/03/2025

    Part 2 Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions: An Examination and Comparative Study of the Tao Te Ching, Panel Discussion

    Part 2 of 'Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions,' starts with 'what does it mean to Serve and Love God (or Tao)? God (Tao) says, 'be what I made you to be!' God (Tao) is found in relationship. Does God want us to know Him (or ourselves) most intimately? Dependent Co-arising? 'Simultaneously, I and all beings attain the Way' (Awaken to Reality) ~Buddha 'Essentially, outside of me, nothing exists' Verse 18 What does it mean to let go? What do we let go of? To be human is to be attached? Closes with Verse 81, and then Joel reads two poems by Ikkyu. Biographies of Panel: Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church. ------ Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. ------- Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council. ------- Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.    ------- Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his independent practice and study of mysticism. He now integrates what he has learned and experienced over these many years. He graduated from Vanderbilt Medical School and completed his psychiatric training at Strong Memorial Hospital of the Univer...

    22 min

  4. 12/03/2025

    Part 1 Echoes of the Tao, Seeking Truth Across Traditions: An Examination and Comparative Study of the Tao Te Ching, Panel Discussion

    In this exploration of the Tao Te Ching and other traditions, the conversation opens to introductions  of the five Panelists and a invocation of hope of others to investigate the Tao Te Ching.  Bob, Brian, Rich, Henry and Joel share Verse 1 and questions arise: What is Reality? Is the Tao Reality? What is the Tao? What does the term Anti-foundational mean? Reversal Yin/ Yang in relation to Tao. Paradox and the Tao. Everyday consciousness is the pathway to the Tao. What is the relationship with Buddhism, Hinduism, Christiainity and Tao? What does silence offer in relation to the Tao? The Beginningless Beginning? Is the Tao directly knowable? Tibetan Buddihsm and the Tao. Verse 17 and Verse 38 are explored. Wu Wei.  How do we serve God? How do we serve Tao? Why did God create? Biographies of Panel: Dr. Bob Insull is an New York State Licensed Psychologist with more than 60 years experience teaching, training, and treating in the arena of human behavior. In his clinical practice, he has worked across the developmental stages (children to golden-agers), across the diagnostic spectrum (chemical dependency, severe mental illness, relationship issues, depression, anxiety, and PTSD), and treatment settings (clinics, inpatient psychiatric centers, and private practice). During the closing years of his practice, he became interested in the area of psychological trauma and worked with survivors in individual and group settings. He has been retired from active practice for about 15 years and spends his time engaged in self-discovery on the Sufi Path and social-change activities with his church. ------- Brian Mistler enjoys communing with fellow inquirers and reflecting together on revealed perennial wisdom. Hari Om Tat Sat. Peace, peace, peace. ------- Richard Grego is Professor of philosophy and cultural history at FSCJ. His research interests focus on cross cultural themes in religion and science - including philosophy of mind, comparative world religions/world civilizations, and the metaphysical - theological implications of theoretical physics and cosmology. His publications have included studies in the history - philosophy of science and conceptions of nature in the history of western philosophy, as well as cross-cultural perspectives on mind/ consciousness in western philosophy - psychology and the neo-Vedanta Hindu tradition. Prior to his academic career, he was a criminal investigator - polygraph examiner for the Florida Office of the Public Defender and in the private sector Instructor at the Criminal Justice Institute and International Academy of Polygraph Science in Florida, and national Academic Director of the Criminal Defense Investigation Training Council. ------- Joel David Lesses is President and Executive Director of Education Training Center, Inc. and his work experience is in education, psychology, and counseling for people marginalized by trauma, addiction, and psychological distress. He is deeply vested in addressing the effects of mental health distress and its marginalization including, incarceration, homelessness, and institutionalization. Joel is dedicated to reframing mental health distress as a potential spiritual marker and existential opportunity. He holds dual Master of Science degrees from University at Buffalo in Rehabilitation Counseling and Biomedical Sciences with a concentration in Epidemiology.    ------- Henry Cretella, M.D. studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism for several years along with training in martial arts.  He then immersed himself in the more universal Sufism of Inayat Khan, an Indian mystic, for close to twenty years. He functioned as a senior teacher in the Inayati Order and the Sufi Healing Order before pursuing  his...

    40 min

  5. 11/07/2025

    Mentorship, Reciprocity, Reality's Backdrop, and Panta Rhei (Everything Changes): An I Thou Video Series Conversation with Richard Wicka and Joel David Lesses

    The I Thou Video Series' host Richard Wicka has a conversation with Joel opening with the posited question, 'What Is?' or 'What Is, existentially?'  The discussion response from Richard offers Panta Rhei (i.e., everything changes). What is identity? Identity and a Real Self, are there two aspects within each of us? Is only one real? Kireeragard: real world self (work self), imaginary self (the self you desire to be), true self (the one you don't know be discover) The question of First Principles (i.e., don't question, axiom) Richard as a mentor to many, including Joel, at Home of the Future The beginning of Unraveling Religion podcast, when Richard asked Joel 'would you like to do a radio show?' Arguments of Philosophy can sharpen one another Chavruta and sharping one another  Thomas Aquinas  Do things exist outside of time? Zen (i.e., in China Ch'an, the Mind Only School of Buddhism) is discussed Bodhidharma and Joshu, and the koan 'does a dog have Buddha nature?' Joshu started teaching at age of 80 and lived to be 120, he taught for 40 years Does this contradict Hieggerder's Being and Time that everything exists in Space and Time Is economics the basis of consciousness? Richard and Joel deconstruct that premise The reciprocity of energy is the basis of healthy community How do we support people who do not value the importance of recipocity Father Greg Boyle, Gangs Service and Kinship Judaism's emphasis on care for the widow, stranger, and the orphan The Lubavaticher Rebbe emphases on care of those without parents How is this emphases is embeded in Torah? From Richard Wicka's notes: Kierkeggaard spoke about the concrete self (where you are today), the ideal self (the self you aspire to be) and the true self (the self that contains all your potential) 'Expanse' (a type of experience) is in contrast to words you use to describe the world.  You are observing. (Identity is a verb not a noun).  I can't think of anything that exists outside of time. People who think there are such things are following in the footsteps of Plato.  Krista Tippets has a podcast called 'On Being'.  The widow, the stranger and the Orphan vs. The Alienated, the ostracized and the damned.  I am where I am now because of good mentorship.   Biography Richard Wicka is a Buffalo, N.Y.-based media artist and photographer and the proprietor of "The Home of the Future,"a media access center and production/recording studio based in his Kaisertown home. Wicka has been providing a forum for artists in all media, activists, and everyday...

    52 min

  6. 10/21/2025

    The Many Faces of Poetry, Language of The Heart, Song of Praise: A Conversation with Pádraig Ó Tuama, Poet and Theologian

    Pádraig Ó Tuama joins Joel and shares a conversation from the heart about poetry, spirituality, community, and communion. The conversation opens to how Joel and Pádraig met, and what informed Pádraig's life as a Poet and Theologian. Pádraig recalls the influences of Ireland and school and the foundation of poetry in that experience, and poetry as resistance, and the role of Peacemaker in the world. Pádraig reads from his new book of poetry Kitchen Hymns' poem, 'The Long Table.' The conversation opens to many faces of poetry and existence: Are we irrelevant to the Universe or is the human being the center point of existence? Do we understand what Love Is? Joel reads from the Mountains and Rivers Sutra of Dogen Zenji's Shobogenzo Coming together for the point of comprehension and not necessary agreement The Church views of LGBTQ+ Community Beyond formal belief and nurturing the heart Pádraig and mentoring the younger generation Pádraig's Kitchen Hymns and On Being's Poetry Unbound Anthology released in 2025: 44 Poems on Being with Each Another  Jewish Mysticism and Kabbalah Kabbalah is for Humankind Plato's Soul with Two Faces The importance of Good Questions is rooted in Judaism and is applicable to all spiritual traditions Midrash in Judaism  The body and the erotic in relation to spirituality and the deeper questions of existence Star of David deconstructed In Judaism a single person is known as half a human being The Garments of the Soul: Intention, Thought, Action, and Speech The Zohar and the thirst for deeper esoteric secrets Pádraig examines the relationship between poetry and prayer 'You' in poetry, most prayers include the word 'you' Pádraig reads from Kitchen Hymns, 'Do You Believe In God?' Close examination of a text will lead you into infinitity  Are Jewish soul's always in Jewish bodies? Joel reads Gary Synder's 'Why Log Truck Drivers Rise Earlier Than Students of Zen' Poetry transports us to other time and place, poetry as a time-machine Rooted spirituality is in the body

    53 min

  7. 09/03/2025

    Accessing The Liminal Space of Surrender And Transformation: A Talk With Crazywise Documentary Filmmaker Phil Borges

    Crazywise Documentary Filmmaker Phil Borges joins Joel for a discussion of Phil's life post Crazywise and together they explore mental health and its relation spirituality, beginning with how does one define spirituality.  Phil's history of experiences into spirituality, beginning with the death of his father and Phil's Aunt returning from a psychiatric hospitalization to Phil's home when Phil was a boy. Also discussed, Phil's career development and choice and his search for meaningful work; from Orthodontistry to Photography and shooting covers of Romance Novels, Phil begin an ascent into work and exploring indigenous cultures. His first project was working on a project in Tibet which he meet a young man identified as a Tulku (i.e., channeler of the Nachung Oracle, the Oversoul Protector of the Tibetan People Culture and Heritage).  Phil interviewed the Tulku and learned how he came to his position in the Tibetan community. The indicators of this position were seen in his Tibetan Community as positive signs of a gifted person and included mood swings, personality changes, hearing voices, and seeing visions. This mental health crisis was the mark of a gifted person in Tibetan community.  In other work, Phil worked with Amnesty International and the Samburu Tribe in where he met a young woman who at 14 started hearing voices and seeing vision. Her grandmother recognized she had the gift to become a predictor, healer, and shaman in her community and took her under her wing and mentored her and these gifts into a skillset to benefit the community. As Phil worked with many indigenous communities he began to interview the shaman, seers, healers, and predictors of these communities and found about 85% of the shaman had an an initiation into the path of the Shaman by a mental health crisis, defined by what the West would call psychosis.  The community understood the mental health crisis as the beginning of a process of developing a person to become a leader, healer, and teacher in their community, and an elder would take them under their wing and mentor and guide them. The mental emotional crisis is known by many shaman as 'The Little Death' or Ego Death. Phil also in his career worked with neuroscientists to research the pathways of the brain. Sudden awakening versus slow awakening was discussed across cultures (i.e., Mahayana school of Soto and Rinzai). Phil also discusses his own experiences with psychedelics and micro-dosing and the importance of integrating those expericences into daily life require effort and work. Phil and Joel discuss that we each have a specific kind of work and the human's journey is to search and find what that work might be.  Liminal Space was defined as a threshold or a doorway and rebuilding after a breakthrough. Phil reflects on his life now and his work on his memoirs documenting where his quest for meaningful work took him through his life.     Biography Phil Borges, has been documenting indigenous cultures and striving to create an understanding of the challenges they face. Phil has spoken at multiple TED talks; including TED in 2007, TEDxRainier in 2012 and TEDxUMKC in 2013 and hosted television documentaries for Discovery and National Geographic.

    56 min

  8. 08/11/2025

    A Pilgrimage, Journey Of The Heart: Examining 'The Why' Of Life With Chris Barbera

    In a Post-Pandemic June 2022, Joel and Chris sat together at Network of Religous Communities in Buffalo, New York and examined and reflected on Chris' travels to Seattle and San Fransisco via train, a pilgrimage. Chris discusses his recent trip and the lessons, resolutions, and insights from his travels to the west coast, focusing on the spiritual aspects. The conversation tends toward defining 'Pilgrimage' as setting an intention of questions and seeing what happens or unravels with the experience as an answer or response to the questions and intention.  After graduation from college, his path opened to extended compassion to the marginalized, the poor, and after college Chris entered into another phase of life, he lived in solidarity with people who were homeless, practicing presence and 'present-ness' with these communities. Chris cites in his life the transformation from service to devotion: born into a challenging family, his compassion for others was cultivated, later manifesting into activism with the homeless communities and prisoners and inmates, seeking to address the Prison System. Chris intentionally placed himself in the heart of suffering as an act of mercy to fulfill an aspect of his understanding of spirituality, and this helped him bridge his own suffering into compassion for others in community who are marginalized and suffer. Chris was inspired reading the Buddhist Sutras and the New Testament, influenced by Buddha and Jesus. Chris' understanding of activism and advocacy lends itself to cultivating and amplifying voices of the marginalized.  Chris shares he has been working with Jesus the Liberatory Seminary for over a decade, utilizing creativity and theology to amplify voices. Prisoners share writings though Jesus the Liberator Seminary of Religous Justice, which has three books published: Prison Theology (Published, 2013) Dreamers, Romans and Prisons: Meditations on Crime, Illness, Healing and Liberation (Published, 2015) More to this Confession: Relational Prison Theology (Published, 2020) Chris found that communal living developed skill building toward activism, repair, and restoration.  Chris talks about the 'why' of his activism, work, and devotion; the 'why' of activism identified by Chris is 'the general compassion for others, that is the 'why' of activism.' This general compassion for people ties into activism and his pilgramages:  helps Chris in addressing suffering 'pilgrimages' uncover how and why one acts the way they do  Chris reflects on his initial pilgrimage, the Tenderloin District in San Fransisco   Chris took an early pilgramage to Wounded Knee (i.e., 1890 Massacre), also reflecting on Sitting Bull and Black Elk Chris reads from his writings. The discussion turns to The Ten (10) Ox Herding Dipictions and the Marketplace as the last of the Ten (10) Dipictions. The conversation opens to a quotation shared by Roshi Philip Kapleau: 'life is not a riddle to be solved, but a reality to be lived.' Many struggle with 'The Why?' of Life, the talk outlines 'the why' is for the Divine and 'the how' is for people to respond to Life's complexities.    Biography of Chris Barbera: Chris Barbera has lived in the backs of empty churches and intentional communities and worked on various social justice movements and has, for many years, administered an educational nonprofit, Jesus the Liberator Seminary of Religious Justice, which focuses upon developing a 'Prison Theology' with people incarcerated. He currently li...

    38 min
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About

These mystical and practical discussions are explorations of spirituality and its relation to religion and psychology, with questions always. Beyond a specific religion or spiritual practice; what do we share, what do we have in common? These talks are a work in progress evolving our rich inner life, including reflections on religious texts, poems, art, and what is common in our human experience enhancing understanding of our relationships: with ourselves, with one another, and with the world we share. Unraveling Religion has developed a cross-collaboration with both Lisa Carley's The Labyrinth podcast and Henry Cretella's Alchemical Dialogues podcast, cross-posting episodes both 'Selected, Best of The Labyrinth' podcast and 'Selected, Best of Alchemical Dialogues' podcast episodes, periodically.

Information

  • Creator
    Joel Lesses
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2026
  • Episodes
    73
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2023
  • Show Website
    Unraveling Religion