Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

Michael Liebreich, Bryony Worthington
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

  1. 2d ago

    AI Has An Electricity Problem | Ep270: Arshad Mansoor

    Will AI break the grid? As hyperscalers race to build ever-larger data centres, electricity demand is soaring. The question is no longer whether power demand will grow, but by how much, how quickly, and whether the grid can deliver. This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Arshad Mansoor, President & CEO of the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), one of the world's leading energy research organisations. Together, they tackle one of the biggest questions facing the global energy system: how much electricity will AI really need, and can our power systems keep up? They debate the scale of AI-driven demand growth, whether the extraordinary investment by hyperscalers is justified, and how greater flexibility could allow data centres to connect faster without overwhelming the grid. They also discuss the growing public backlash against AI infrastructure, why winning local support may become the industry's biggest challenge, and whether nuclear power is truly the "get out of jail free card" many believe it to be or simply one part of a much bigger solution. Topics included in this episode: The race to power AI data centres Hyperscalers' trillion-dollar AI investment Can electricity grids keep pace with AI's rapid growth? Gigawatt demand forecasts Making data centres more flexible Public acceptance and the growing backlash against AI Nuclear power's role in the AI era What governments, utilities and investors should do next Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Arshad Mansoor’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arshad-mansoor-a2090b165/ EPRI, Electric Power Research Institute: https://www.epri.com/ Jigar Shah on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOaF-qQ_TU Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSrgRZUCwE Rob Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w&t=2s Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Papers referenced: DC Flex Mosaic: https://dcflex.epri.com/flex-mosaic/open-letter Win Win Watts: https://winwin.epri.com/en/introduction.html Make Electricity Cheap Again: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/make-electricity-cheap-again Acronyms: GPU: Graphics Processing Unit IPO: Initial Public Offering NESO: National Energy Systems Operator HVO: Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil SMR: Small Modular Reactor Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:29 About EPRI 06:08 AI Power Demand 10:45 Gigawatt Debate 17:19 Hyperscaler Risk 26:15 Compute In Households 31:24 24/7 Data Power 38:28 Public Acceptance 41:39 Fear Of AI 49:39 A Nuclear Solution? 58:38 24/7 Reliable Power 01:08:00 Final Thoughts

    AI Has An Electricity Problem | Ep270: Arshad Mansoor

  2. 4d ago ·  Bonus

    How Renewables Are Replacing Australia's Ageing Coal Fleet | Deep Dive Australia 07: Paul Simshauser

    Australia has one of the world's fastest-moving electricity systems. It leads the world in rooftop solar, has deployed grid-scale batteries at extraordinary speed, and is now starting to replace its ageing coal fleet with cleaner sources of energy. But as renewable costs rise and electricity demand grows, can the transition remain affordable while maintaining a reliable power system? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Paul Simshauser, CEO of Iberdrola Australia, and one of Australia's leading energy economists. Drawing on decades of experience across electricity markets, networks and policy, Paul explains what makes Australia's power system unique, and what the rest of the world can learn from it. They discuss why rooftop solar has become so successful in Australia, how batteries are transforming electricity markets, and how the country's energy-only market encourages investment. They also explore the economics of replacing ageing coal plants, the costs of new renewable generation, the role of electricity pricing and demand tariffs, and what will be needed to build a resilient, affordable power system as Australia moves towards net zero. Topics discussed in this episode: The rooftop solar revolution How batteries are reshaping the grid Why solar is cheaper in Australia than elsewhere The challenges of retiring coal Whether renewables can stay affordable Building a resilient power system Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Paul Simshauser’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-simshauser-00106713/ Iberdrola Australia: https://www.iberdrola.com.au Link to Paul’s articles: https://experts.griffith.edu.au/18942-paul-simshauser/publications Malcolm Turnbull on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9CUGRHCswU&t=5s Marc England on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tKVSJcS_SI Darren Miller on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBhkBTZ9lSI&t=2s Tony Abbott on Cleaning Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_39HmAgq9RY&t=1s Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: STC: Small-scale Technology Certificates CFD: Contract For Difference PPAs: Power Purchase Agreements IBGYBG: “I'll be gone, you'll be gone.” OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturer AEMO: Australian Electricity Market Operator LNG: Liquefied Natural Gas Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 02:28 - Paul's Background 04:07 - Iberdrola Australia 06:42 - Australia's Power System 09:15 - Battery Revolution 12:36 - Energy-Only Market 14:35 - Why Solar Succeeds 18:21 - Commercial Solar Challenge 24:30 - Ageing Coal Fleet 28:49 - Carbon Markets & Pricing 35:00 - Renewable Costs 39:18 - Future Demand 42:45 - Grid Resilience 48:00 - Outro

    How Renewables Are Replacing Australia's Ageing Coal Fleet | Deep Dive Australia 07: Paul Simshauser

  3. Aug 5

    The Unseen Agents of Climate Change | Ep269: David Kirchman

    Microbes rarely feature in discussions about climate change, yet they play a central role in regulating greenhouse gases through the Earth's carbon, methane and nitrogen cycles. As the climate changes, understanding these natural processes is becoming increasingly important to develop new approaches to clean energy, agriculture and emissions reduction. This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington speaks with Professor Emeritus David Kirchman of the University of Delaware, one of the world's leading microbial ecologists and author of 'Microbes: the Unseen Agents of Climate Change.' They explore how microbes drive the carbon, methane and nitrogen cycles, how climate change is reshaping ecosystems from permafrost to coral reefs, and how microbial science could help tackle the climate crisis, from microbial fuel cells and lower-emissions agriculture to biofuels, methane reduction and even emerging forms of carbon removal and geoengineering Topics covered in this episode: The microbes shaping Earth's climate Ocean carbon cycle Methane-eating microbes Arctic warming impacts Coral reefs and climate resilience Low-carbon agriculture Microbes powering climate solutions Climate interventions Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: David Kirchman’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-kirchman-5925b331/ David’s book: Microbes, the Unseen Agents of Climate Change: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Microbes-Unseen-Agents-Climate-Change/dp/019768856X Merlin Sheldrake on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC-9ulSTnB4 Sea ice melting effect on microbes article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-77821-9 Background on James Lovelock's Gaia Hypothesis: https://courses.seas.harvard.edu/climate/eli/Courses/EPS281r/Sources/Gaia/Gaia-hypothesis-wikipedia.pdf DMS: Dimethyl Sulphide Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Chapters: 00:00 - Intro 00:45 - About David Kirchman 05:50 - What Are Microbes? 15:29 - Climate Cycles & Carbon 23:04 - Methane Microbes 29:01 - Climate Change 34:41 - Coral Reefs 41:02 - Microbe Climate Solutions 50:10 - Climate Engineering 01:00:28 - Outro

    The Unseen Agents of Climate Change | Ep269: David Kirchman

  4. Aug 3 ·  Bonus

    Why The Transition Hasn't Made Australians Rich Yet | Deep Dive Australia 06: David Pocock

    David Pocock is one of Australia's most influential politicians, working as the Senator of the Australian Capital Territory. He brings a distinctive perspective to some of the country's biggest debates, from climate policy and energy security to democratic reform and the future of work. A former captain of the Australian rugby team, David entered politics after years of speaking out on issues including climate change, equality and environmental protection. Four years into his Senate career, he joins Michael Liebreich to explain how independent politics works in practice, what he's hearing from voters across Australia, his campaign to tax natural gas exports, and why he believes the country's clean energy transition must deliver lower household bills as well as lower emissions. The conversation explores Australia's world-leading rooftop solar uptake, the barriers slowing electric vehicle adoption, and why David believes Australians deserve a greater return from the country's gas exports. They also look ahead to the rise of AI and data centres, asking whether governments are paying enough attention to the implications for jobs, tax revenues and energy demand. Topics covered in this week's episode: David’s journey from rugby player to Senator Australian voters' priorities Lowering household energy bills Australia's clean energy successes Why EV adoption lags Taxing Australia's gas exports Data centres and energy demand AI concerns and the future of work Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: David Pocock’s bio: https://www.davidpocock.com.au/about David Pocock “Chains himself to digger” news article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/30272670 Aksel Lund Svindal on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRc1VCBnVgI Alex Honnold on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwmQf0mhHkE Prince Albert of Monaco on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-eYHKpDBYU Håkan Agnevall (Wärtsilä) on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUYjGT55g5A Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: C&I: Commercial and Industrial ICE: Internal Combustion Engine ACT: Australian Capital Territory Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:48 From Rugby to Politics 11:46 Getting Arrested For Activism 16:35 What Voters Want 20:34 Rising Voter Frustration 26:16 Australia's Energy Report 28:57 Why EVs Lag Behind 31:19 Taxing Gas Exports 36:09 Data Centre Dilemma 39:46 AI vs Human Jobs 44:47 Delivering Real Results 49:44 Outro

    Why The Transition Hasn't Made Australians Rich Yet | Deep Dive Australia 06: David Pocock

  5. Jul 29

    The Crisis Forcing An Energy Revolution | Ep268: Jonathan Maxwell

    The UK is heavily exposed to global energy markets and has some of the highest electricity prices in Europe. At the same time, vast amounts of heat generated across industry and infrastructure go unused. Whether it should be called "waste" is a matter of debate, but could making better use of the energy we already produce be one of the biggest untapped opportunities in the energy transition? This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Jonathan Maxwell, founder and CEO of SDCL, a specialist investment firm focused on energy efficiency. They explore why energy efficiency should be treated as a strategic resource, why “waste” heat could become one of Europe's most overlooked energy resources, and how Europe and the UK can strengthen its energy resilience following renewed tensions in the Strait of Hormuz.   They discuss the economics of gas versus electricity, the rapid growth of AI-driven data centres and their power requirements, and how long-term infrastructure investment can help build a more resilient, affordable and efficient energy system. Topics covered in this episode: The Strait of Hormuz and Europe's energy security The UK's energy system and the cost of electrification Gas versus electricity pricing Debating “waste” heat and energy efficiency AI, data centres and growing power demand Powering and cooling next-generation infrastructure Infrastructure investment and portfolio management Europe's energy transition beyond the AI boom Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Jonathan Maxwell’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-maxwell-a121a533/ Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN2YWPqBPHk Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2023: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OTbyOxYUpg Jonathan on Cleaning Up 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqrtr2lePM8 Jonathan’s substack: https://jonathanmaxwell.substack.com/ The Edge by Jonathan Maxwell: https://the-edge-book.com/product/the-edge-by-jonathan-maxwell/ SDCL: https://www.sdclgroup.com/ Ed Conway on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhvEExdYeEU Robert Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w  Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/  Acronyms: LNG: Liquified Natural Gas JCPOA: Joint and Comprehensive Plan of Action CHP: Combined Heat and Power PUE: Power Usage Effectiveness CCHP: Combined Cooling Heat and Power EBITDA: Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortisation Chapters: 00:00 - Europe's Energy Security 05:11 - Strait of Hormuz Impact 15:39 - Electrifying the UK 23:14 - Gas vs Electricity 28:56 - Waste Heat Debate 32:14 - Powering Data Centres 42:20 - AI Investment 46:42 - Cooling Data Centres 52:16 - Managing Energy Assets 01:06:47 - Outro

    The Crisis Forcing An Energy Revolution | Ep268: Jonathan Maxwell

  6. Jul 27 ·  Bonus

    Can Australia Become A Clean Tech Superpower? Deep Dive Australia 05: Ross Garnaut

    Across huge swathes of the global economy, clean solutions are already cheaper than their fossil alternatives, and so a carbon price isn’t needed. But in other sections of the economy, the costs of green tech are higher, and so carbon pricing will be needed to make them cost competitive. But what should that price be, and how can it be successfully implemented? This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Professor Ross Garnaut, a towering figure in the debate about how to implement carbon pricing, and founder of the Superpower Institute. Having advised successive Australian governments on climate policy since 2007, Ross makes the case for how Australia can export green iron, ammonia, and carbon-based fuels to industrialised economies that don't have the land or renewable resources to decarbonise on their own. They discuss the political history behind Australia's stop-start carbon pricing, the debate over whether green hydrogen can ever get cheap enough to make the superpower vision work, and how First Nations communities are shaping decisions about the land at the centre of it. They also explore the tension between protectionism and genuine security concerns over Chinese supply chains, and whether China's undervalued currency is really what's holding back Australia's competitiveness. Topics covered in this episode: Australian climate policy under different Prime Ministers Australia as a low-carbon superpower Exporting molecules vs exporting electricity First Nations involvement in land use The green hydrogen cost debate Protectionism vs. security concerns Pinning down an actual carbon price Trade imbalances and exchange rates Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live. Links: Watch our full Deep Dive Australia Series: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLc8cNKXCII70&si=GmXz-zQe3yK42V3o Ross Garnaut’s bio: https://www.rossgarnaut.com.au/ Malcolm Turnbull on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9CUGRHCswU Tony Abbott on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_39HmAgq9RY The Superpower Institute: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/ The SuperPower Institute reports: https://www.superpowerinstitute.com.au/work?type=report Ross' book — Superpower: Australia's Low-Carbon Opportunity by Ross Garnaut: https://www.blackincbooks.com.au/books/superpower

    Can Australia Become A Clean Tech Superpower? Deep Dive Australia 05: Ross Garnaut

  7. Jul 22

    How Norway Became A Global Gas Giant | Ep267: Anders Opedal

    At the beginning of 2022, Europe was sourcing around 40% of its gas from Russia. By the end of this year, no more gas should be flowing from Russia into Europe.  Much of that shortfall has been replaced by production from the vast oil and gas fields of Norway's North Sea continental shelf. And this year, the closure of the Strait of Hormuz again highlighted the importance of Norway to Europe's resilience. But how does one of the world's largest oil and gas producers balance energy security with the race to net zero? This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Anders Opedal, CEO of Equinor, Norway's state-backed energy company. Having spent almost three decades at the company, Anders discusses Equinor's strategy for producing lower-emissions oil and gas while investing heavily in offshore wind, carbon capture and storage, and the technologies needed for the energy transition.  They also explore the impact of fugitive methane emissions, the realities of carbon capture, the economics of offshore wind, and why Norway believes it can continue supplying oil and gas for decades to come. Topics covered: How Russia disrupted European gas supplies Meeting Europe's gas demand The Strait of Hormuz and energy prices Tax, financing and investment Equinor's partnership with Shell Carbon capture and storage (CCS) Can the UK replicate Norway's success?  Offshore wind development Reducing methane emissions and gas flaring Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links:  Anders Opedal’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andersopedalequinor/ Equinor: https://www.equinor.com/ Northern Lights project: https://www.equinor.com/energy/northern-lights Sign up to our newsletter: cleaninguppod.substack.com Amber Rudd on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZOokwqLaRc Ben van Beurden on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jImWveH7Xn0 Michael Lewis on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOD-f6uSPgc Acronyms: TTF: Title Transfer Facility  BTU: British Thermal Units FID: Final Investment Decision CCS: Carbon Capture and Storage OGCI: Oil and Gas Climate Initiative OGDC: Oil and Gas Decarbonisation Charter

    How Norway Became A Global Gas Giant | Ep267: Anders Opedal

  8. Jul 20 ·  Bonus

    Is Australia Finally Turning Its Back on Coal? Lily D'Ambrosio | Deep Dive Australia 04

    Victoria is undertaking one of Australia's most ambitious electricity transitions. The state is aiming for 65% renewable electricity by 2030 and 95% by 2035, replacing ageing coal-fired power stations with renewable electricity, batteries and offshore wind while keeping the lights on and consumers' bills down. This week on Cleaning Up’s Deep Dive Australia, Michael Liebreich is joined by Lily D'Ambrosio, Victoria's Minister for Climate Action, Energy and the State Electricity Commission, who has overseen the state's energy transition for more than a decade. Together Minister D’Ambrosio and Michael examine the policies driving the transition, from renewable energy auctions and large-scale batteries, to offshore wind and transmission planning. Michael also challenges the Minister on some of the most controversial aspects of Victoria's strategy, including unpublished modelling, coal closure agreements, and the politics of moving households away from gas. Topics: Victoria's energy transition and the role of state governments Replacing coal with renewables Batteries, electricity markets and falling wholesale prices Coal plant closures and investor certainty Transparency, modelling and political accountability Transmission, community opposition and Renewable Energy Zones Offshore wind and the future generation mix Gas, household electrification and cost of living Leadership, public confidence and delivering the transition Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Lily D’Ambrosio’s bio: https://www.victorianchamber.com.au/profile/lily-dambrosio Sign up to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com EnergyAustralia: https://www.energyaustralia.com.au/ AGL: https://www.agl.com.au/  VicGrid: https://www.vicgrid.com.au/ Western Renewable Link: https://www.westernrenewableslink.com.au/ Offshore wind: https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/offshore-wind-energy/offshore-wind-energy-victoria Gas substitution roadmap: https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/victorias-gas-substitution-roadmap Open Electricity: https://openelectricity.org.au/ Acronyms: CSIRO: Commonwealth Science and Industrial Research Organisation

    Is Australia Finally Turning Its Back on Coal? Lily D'Ambrosio | Deep Dive Australia 04
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

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