Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

Michael Liebreich, Bryony Worthington
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

  1. 3d ago

    The Scandal at The Heart of The Energy Transition | Ep275: Jan Rosenow

    Around two-thirds of the energy we put into today’s energy system ends up as rejected heat. So are we measuring the energy transition all wrong? Professor Jan Rosenow joins Michael Liebreich to unpack the “primary energy fallacy”: why focusing on the energy going into the system can obscure the useful energy we actually get out. They explore why electrification can dramatically reduce energy demand, and what genuine systems thinking means for efficiency, waste heat and infrastructure. They also examine hydrogen versus electrification, including Jan’s review of more than 60 independent studies on hydrogen for heating, why hydrogen continues to attract support despite its disadvantages in many end uses, and how incumbent industries resist technological change. Key topics discussed: The primary energy fallacy Why useful energy mattersThe hidden inefficiency of fossil fuelsElectrification and shrinking energy demandRethinking energy efficiency through systems thinkingMaking better use of waste heatWhy energy statistics can misrepresent the transitionHydrogen vs electrification for heatingWhy incumbent technologies resist changeLeadership Circle Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Jan Rosenow’s bio: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/find-an-expert/professor-jan-rosenow Jan Rosenow’s Substack: https://janrosenow.substack.com/ Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Sankey Diagram: https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/sites/flowcharts/files/2026-08/2024-us-energy-flowchart-homepage.jpg Michael Liebreich’s “The Five Superheroes Of The Transition” article: https://about.bnef.com/insights/clean-energy/liebreich-net-zero-will-be-harder-than-you-think-and-easier-part-ii-easier/ Our World In Data Energy Consumption Chart: https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption Innovation and Its Enemies: Why People Resist New Technologies book: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Innovation-Its-Enemies-People-Technologies/dp/019046703 Jonathan Maxwell on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcN3Bqq8ehA Rob Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3wJorgo Chatzimarkakis on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NCiEhprSOc Subscribe to Cleaning Up’s newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Acronyms: LNG: Liquefied Natural GasIEA: International Energy Agency, EIA: Energy Information Administration.IIASA: International Institute for Applied Systems AnalysisOECD: Organisation for Economic Co-operation and DevelopmentChapters: 00:00 Introduction07:34 Primary Energy Fallacy15:14 Fossil Fuel Inefficiency24:44 Rethinking Energy Efficiency27:05 Using Waste Heat35:00 Misleading Energy Statistics43:12 Hydrogen vs Electrification49:48 Resisting Technological Change58:00 Hydrogen Europe 01:03:14 Outro

    The Scandal at The Heart of The Energy Transition | Ep275: Jan Rosenow

  2. Sep 16

    The Race Is On To Control AI | Episode 274: Afonso Salema & Sam Winter-Levy

    More than 80% of the world’s advanced AI compute is concentrated in the US and China. For Europe and other middle powers, the question may no longer be how to win the AI race, but how to avoid becoming dangerously dependent on those that do. This week on Cleaning Up, James Cameron, Chair of Cleaning Up’s Editorial Council, takes over as guest host. He speaks with Sam Winter-Levy, Senior Fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Afonso Salema, CEO of Exus Digital and founder of TerraByte Data Centers, about how compute is becoming a strategic resource. They explore how access to power and the grid is shaping where billions of dollars of AI infrastructure gets built, and how data centres could become a source of geopolitical leverage. They also discuss the security and public backlash facing this critical infrastructure, and whether AI’s enormous appetite for electricity could ultimately accelerate the clean energy transition. Topics covered in this episode: Compute as a strategic resourceThe US-China race for AIWhy Europe is falling behindAI’s rapidly growing electricity demandWhere the world builds data centresProtecting data centres from attackWeaponising chips and AI accessThe political backlash against data centresCan AI accelerate clean energy?Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Afonso Salema’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/afonso-salema-336320/Sam Winter-Levy’s bio: https://carnegieendowment.org/people/sam-winter-levyJames Cameron’s bio: https://www.james-cameron.co.uk/bioCleaning Up 235. Inside Start Campus, Europe’s largest data centre: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3wJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn7GKiW5E4kJames Cameron on Cleaning Up in 2025: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPPjAbSxl5cSubscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/The Stanford 2026 AI index: https://hai.stanford.edu/ai-index/2026-ai-index-reportEdelman Trust in AI poll: https://www.edelman.com/trust/2025/trust-barometer/report-tech-sectorAcronyms: AWS: Amazon Web ServicesNIMBY: "Not In My Back Yard"Chapters: 00:00 Introduction02:02 AI, security, geopolitics05:01 Compute as power11:34 The global AI race14:07 Building data centres18:02 Defending critical infrastructure23:53 Who pays for security?29:24 Designing for resilience32:48 Weaponising AI access40:02 Data centre backlash49:56 The balance of power54:09 Can Europe catch up?59:43 AI and clean energy01:04:01 Outro

    The Race Is On To Control AI | Episode 274: Afonso Salema & Sam Winter-Levy

  3. Sep 9

    Mexico Wants To Build An $8,000 EV For Everyone | Ep273: Roberto Capuano

    Can Mexico build an electric car for $8,000, and use it to create an entirely new domestic industry? This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington visits Mexico City to sit down with Roberto Capuano, director of the Olinia Project, and discuss the state-backed effort to develop a new generation of affordable electric mini-vehicles.  Roberto explains why Olinia is designing small EVs specifically around the needs of Mexican cities, how partnerships with Chinese suppliers could accelerate technology transfer, and why price rather than subsidies could ultimately drive EV adoption. They also discuss Mexico's ambitions beyond its domestic market, with potential demand across Latin America and even East Africa. Topics discussed in this episode: Why Mexico wants its own carmakerElectrifying Mexico City's public transportThe rise of electric mini-carsBuilding an $8,000 Mexican EVWhy Olinia is partnering with ChinaThe state's role in carmakingBuilding a Latin American EV marketCan Olinia deliver by 2027? Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Climate Imperative Foundation, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit cleaningup.live. Links: Roberto Capuano’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roberto-capuano/ Olinia Project: https://www.olinia.auto/ Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ OEM: Original Equipment ManufacturerBRT: Bus Rapid Transit R&D: Research & DevelopmentICE: Internal Combustion Engine Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:15 Electrifying Mexico City 10:33 Olinia's Origins 11:58 Mini Electric Cars 18:48 Made in Mexico 21:25 State-Led Industry 30:33 Chinese Supply Chains 36:31 The $8,000 EV 40:01 Charging Infrastructure 42:54 Global Ambitions 45:43 Scaling Olinia 48:40 Software and Autonomy 50:01 Political Longevity 55:31 Outro

    Mexico Wants To Build An $8,000 EV For Everyone | Ep273: Roberto Capuano

  4. Sep 2

    The Testbed for Asia's Clean-Tech Future | Ep272: Jaime Z. Urquijo

    Can the Philippines become a testbed for Southeast Asia’s clean-tech future?  Kicking off Season 19 of Cleaning Up, guest host Marie Cheong meets Jaime Z. Urquijo, Urban Estates Group Head at Ayala Land, one of the Philippines is largest real estate and development companies.  Ayala Land is a subsidiary of the Ayala Corporation, which has been part of the Philippines' economic story for almost 200 years, and ACEN, its energy platform, has gone from a standing start in 2011 to more than 7GW of renewable capacity across Asia-Pacific.  Marie and Jaime explore how the Philippines can build cleaner energy, transport and cities from the start while its economy and population continue to grow. They discuss replacing coal with renewables, retiring coal plants early, building resilient cities and making growth less carbon-intensive. From batteries and rooftop solar to green steel and electric buses, they ask what it will take for the Philippines to leapfrog to a cleaner, more resilient economy.  Topics covered in this conversation: The Philippines' clean-energy challenge Can growth be decoupled from emissions? Making corporate sustainability profitable ACEN's renewable-energy transformation Southeast Asia's renewable-energy gold rush Can coal plants retire early? Building resilient cities for climate Electric buses and better transport Green steel and cleaner construction Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Jaime Urquijo’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaime-urquijo-96526799/ Ayala Corporation: https://ayala.com/ Ayala Land: https://ayalaland.com/  ACEN: https://www.acenrenewables.com/about-us/ Monsoon Wind Project: https://www.monsoonwindasia.com/  Marie's past appearance on Cleaning Up: https://youtu.be/RE2ZeGd8aaI Acronyms: WBCSD: World Business Council for Sustainable Development BPO: Business Process Outsourcing SBTI: Science Based Targets Initiative. MDC: Makati Development Corporation.  EDC: The Energy Development Corporation  EPIRA: Electric Power Industry Reform Act FIT: Feed-In Tariff ETM: Energy Transition Mechanism BRT: Bus Rapid Transit System ICE: Internal Combustion Engine LGU: Local Government Unit  Chapters: 00:00: Intro 04:34: The Philippines 07:49: Ayala's history 10:42: Sustainability strategy 16:16: Net zero 27:32: Energy liberalisation 34:09: Regional challenges 36:27: Coal retirement 42:07: Resilient cities 47:45: Green steel 52:14: Green construction 54:55: Innovation tailwinds 58:27: Energy decentralisation 59:07: Future growth 01:01:43: Outro

    The Testbed for Asia's Clean-Tech Future | Ep272: Jaime Z. Urquijo

  5. Aug 26 ·  Bonus

    The Good, Bad and Downright Ugly of Australia's Energy Transition | Deep Dive Australia 09: Anna Freeman & Michael Liebreich

    Australia has become a laboratory for the energy transition, what can the rest of the world learn? After two weeks travelling across Australia and meeting the leaders shaping its energy transition, Michael Liebreich got a close up view of the country’s transformation.  For the final episode of Cleaning Up’s Deep Dive Australia series, the host becomes the guest as Anna Freeman of the Energy Efficiency Council turns the tables and puts Michael in the hot seat to ask him what he has learned. Michael divides his takeaways into the good, the less good and the “downright ugly”, from Australia’s extraordinary rooftop solar and battery uptake to its struggles with wind, transmission and diesel. He also asks whether the country really can become a clean energy superpower, and what its successes and failures can teach the rest of the world. Topics covered in this episode: Australia’s rooftop solar advantage Why batteries are beating gas The missing middle of electrification Can transmission keep up? Australia’s expensive wind problem The China challenge Breaking the diesel addiction Why EVs may be finally taking off Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Australia Deep Dive Episodes:  Darren Miller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBhkBTZ9lSI&t=2s Chris Bowen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYtapcSdZOo&t=132s Marc England https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tKVSJcS_SI&t=2s Lily D'Ambrosio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVGL9vVTdeY Ross Garnaut: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmcm2M5eRxk&t=35s David Pocock: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sgbq5r3XTJY Paul Simshauser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZKxb2TnD04 Martin Green: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgqXnnvlMFg Links: Anna Freeman’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annafreeman1/ The Energy Efficiency Council: https://eec.org.au Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Stats on Seaborne Trade of diesel: https://ieefa.org/resources/oil-shocks-expose-limits-monetary-policy John Pettigrew on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7Lg1A958aA&t=5s Tim Meyerjürgens on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQgUuJ-dx78&t=16s Leo Birnbaum on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pa-DHuPNEDg Andrew Forrest on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYQmEipY5Wc Acronyms: IRENA: International Renewable Energy Agency EMA: Energy Market Operator DNSP: Distribution Network Service Provider REZ: Renewable Energy Zones AEMO: Australian Energy Market Operator Chapters: 00:00: Intro 05:45: Solar Adoption 10:25: Big Batteries 13:41: The Missing Middle 19:26: Transmission Grids 21:35: Australia’s Wind Problem 32:43: China’s Superpower 40:53: The Diesel Addiction 45:24: EV Adoption 52:58 Lack Of Transparency 56:19 Michael’s Highlights 01:14:00: Outro

    The Good, Bad and Downright Ugly of Australia's Energy Transition | Deep Dive Australia 09: Anna Freeman & Michael Liebreich

  6. Aug 19

    The Next Frontier of Electrification? Industrial Heat | Ep271: James Macnaghten

    Around the world, factories making food, drink, pharmaceuticals and other everyday products rely on steam, often produced by fossil-fuel boilers. James Macnaghten, founder and CEO of Caldera, is betting that thermal batteries can provide a cheaper and more flexible alternative that stores electricity as heat, and delivers steam on demand. This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington visits Caldera's factory to see how it makes its heat batteries: combining recycled aluminium and iron ore pellets to create a long-lasting, efficient heat store. The technology is designed for industrial processes up to 200°C, which James sees as a major opportunity for electrification. They discuss how thermal storage can help factories manage peaks in demand, use electricity when it is cheap or abundant, and reduce pressure on congested grids. They also explore Caldera's plans to scale, its journey from domestic heating to industry, and why James believes a more pragmatic approach to electrification is needed. Topics discussed in this episode: The hidden opportunity in industrial heat How Caldera's heat batteries work Why steam still matters Heat pumps and thermal storage Managing industrial demand spikes Turning surplus power into heat Scaling a UK climate-tech company The case for pragmatic electrification Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: James Macnaghten’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-macnaghten Caldera: https://www.caldera.co.uk/ Professor Ning Li on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCUASv01bVY Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ JVs - Joint Ventures IP - Intellectual Property Chapters: 00:00: Intro 01:53: About Caldera Batteries 03:42: Heat Storage 09:47: Caldera Factory Tour 14:40: Funding Caldera 17:44: Scaling Up 25:37: Thermal Storage 29:02: Energy Price Shocks 30:27: Flexible Demand 35:22: UK Success Story 37:32: Outro

    The Next Frontier of Electrification? Industrial Heat | Ep271: James Macnaghten

  7. Aug 17 ·  Bonus

    How Much Better Can Solar Get? Deep Dive Australia 08: Martin Green

    Solar was once dismissed as a marginal technology. Today, it is transforming the global energy system, and few people have done more to make that possible than Professor Martin Green. Innovations developed by Green and his research group can now be found in over 90% of all the solar panels in use today One of the pioneers of modern solar power, Green’s research has helped make solar panels dramatically more efficient and cheaper to produce. He joins Michael Liebreich to discuss how he got into solar, the breakthroughs that helped drive its extraordinary rise, and the remarkable story of how research carried out at an Australian university helped create the global solar manufacturing industry. They also look at where solar goes next, and whether the next generation of technology can make it even more powerful.  Topics discussed in this episode The breakthroughs that changed solar Understanding solar cells and efficiency Racing NASA to new efficiency records Pioneering PERC and TOPCon technology How solar technology reached the market Suntech and the rise of Chinese solar The future of solar and batteries Which solar technology will dominate? Leadership Circle Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links Martin Green bio: https://www.unsw.edu.au/staff/martin-green Australian Centre for Advanced Photovoltaics: https://www.acap.org.au/ Professor Stephen Chu on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPmgA5cjhfk NREL National Renewable Energy Lab chart: https://www.nlr.gov/pv/interactive-cell-efficiency Subscribe to our newsletter: cleaninguppod.substack.com Acronyms: PERC - Passivated Emitter and Rear Cell TOPCon - Tunnel Oxide Passivated Contact NREL - National Renewable Energy Laboratory Chapters 00:00 - Intro 02:14 - UNSW Research Group  10:25 - Innovations in Solar  13:12 - PERC & TOPCon Explained 19:26 - Efficiency Records & NREL Chart  23:48 - Birth of Chinese Solar  30:21 - The First Solar Billionaire 36:23 - Perovskite and Tandem Cells  48:12 - Australia's Missed Chance  50:13 - Outro

    How Much Better Can Solar Get? Deep Dive Australia 08: Martin Green

  8. Aug 12

    AI Has An Electricity Problem | Ep270: Arshad Mansoor

    Will AI break the grid? As hyperscalers race to build ever-larger data centres, electricity demand is soaring. The question is no longer whether power demand will grow, but by how much, how quickly, and whether the grid can deliver. This week, Michael Liebreich is joined by Arshad Mansoor, President & CEO of the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), one of the world's leading energy research organisations. Together, they tackle one of the biggest questions facing the global energy system: how much electricity will AI really need, and can our power systems keep up? They debate the scale of AI-driven demand growth, whether the extraordinary investment by hyperscalers is justified, and how greater flexibility could allow data centres to connect faster without overwhelming the grid. They also discuss the growing public backlash against AI infrastructure, why winning local support may become the industry's biggest challenge, and whether nuclear power is truly the "get out of jail free card" many believe it to be or simply one part of a much bigger solution. Topics included in this episode: The race to power AI data centres Hyperscalers' trillion-dollar AI investment Can electricity grids keep pace with AI's rapid growth? Gigawatt demand forecasts Making data centres more flexible Public acceptance and the growing backlash against AI Nuclear power's role in the AI era What governments, utilities and investors should do next Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Arshad Mansoor’s bio: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arshad-mansoor-a2090b165/ EPRI, Electric Power Research Institute: https://www.epri.com/ Jigar Shah on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCOaF-qQ_TU Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kSrgRZUCwE Rob Dunn on Cleaning Up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w&t=2s Subscribe to our newsletter: https://cleaninguppod.substack.com/ Papers referenced: DC Flex Mosaic: https://dcflex.epri.com/flex-mosaic/open-letter Win Win Watts: https://winwin.epri.com/en/introduction.html Make Electricity Cheap Again: https://mliebreich.substack.com/p/make-electricity-cheap-again Acronyms: GPU: Graphics Processing Unit IPO: Initial Public Offering NESO: National Energy Systems Operator HVO: Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil SMR: Small Modular Reactor Chapters: 00:00 Intro 02:29 About EPRI 06:08 AI Power Demand 10:45 Gigawatt Debate 17:19 Hyperscaler Risk 26:15 Compute In Households 31:24 24/7 Data Power 38:28 Public Acceptance 41:39 Fear Of AI 49:39 A Nuclear Solution? 58:38 24/7 Reliable Power 01:08:00 Final Thoughts

    AI Has An Electricity Problem | Ep270: Arshad Mansoor
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

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