Rethinking Education

Dr James Mannion

"Civilisation is a race between education and catastrophe." (HG Wells) In this podcast, we take Wells at his word. Hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, Rethinking Education features long-form conversations with fascinating guests about how we might create a more diverse, intelligent, responsive educational ecosystem that works for *all* young people. If this sounds interesting to you, welcome to Rethinking Education: Education's Critical Friend: https://rethinking-ed.org/podcast

  1. 3d ago

    "We need revolution, not evolution!" - Education of the Head, Heart and Hand, with Sarah Seleznyov and Liz Robinson

    Too many young people are getting a "desiccated" education – narrow, information-transfer schooling optimised for exams. In this episode, James and David are joined by Liz Robinson and Sarah Seleznyov of Big Education – the "feisty little multi-academy trust" behind School 21, School 360 and Surrey Square – to make the case for something bigger: an education of the head (academic learning), heart (wellbeing and relationships) and hand (creativity and skills). The conversation centres on the new book from the Rethinking School project, A Practical Guide to a Big Education: Balancing Head, Heart and Hand, edited by Sarah Seleznyov and Robert Lobatto – a collection of chapters written by school leaders and teachers who are actually doing this work, each paired with a vignette from another school and reflective questions to help you find your own way in. Not a recipe book, but an invitation to be a little bit braver. In this episode we explore: -Why pedagogy was written out of the Curriculum and Assessment Review – and why curriculum, pedagogy and assessment have to change together ("if you only pull one string in the marionette, it jerks") -England's uniquely narrow definition of curriculum and learning – and how it compares with models from around the world -What Big Education is, and what an education of the head, heart and hand actually means -The Milburn report on youth unemployment – and why the problems start in Year 1, not at upper secondary -Liz's "soapbox rant": Every Child Matters, extended schools, co-located services – and what was lost when it was all set on fire -Think systemically, act systematically: systems thinking, design thinking and vertical slice change teams Authentic leadership: vulnerability, ego, the kelp metaphor – and why Liz is learning to bring "Lizzie" to work -Being evidence-informed: why data is richer than numbers, the trouble with RCTs and the EEF toolkit, and engaging with research and in research -Interdisciplinary project-based learning – and the jaw-dropping story of the Ofsted inspector who withheld 'outstanding' because children didn't know their learning was called history -Can we teach and assess transferable competencies? And do we have to trade exam results for a broader education? (Spoiler: no) -Lessons from curriculum reform in Scotland, Wales and British Columbia – why transforming practice takes time, investment and serious professional development -Why we need revolution, not evolution About the guests Liz Robinson is co-founder and CEO of Big Education. She became a headteacher at 29, leading Surrey Square Primary in south London for many years, and created the Big Leadership Adventure. She advocates for – and models – an authentic, reflective and relational approach to leadership. Sarah Seleznyov is Strategic Project Lead at Big Education and leads the Rethinking School project. She has worked in London schools for over 25 years as a deputy head, school improvement consultant and teaching school director, and previously led research-informed leadership programmes at the UCL Institute of Education. Her research specialism is Japanese lesson study. Links Get the book: A Practical Guide to a Big Education: Balancing Head, Heart and Hand – https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/practical-guide-to-a-big-education-9781801997928/ Big Education: https://bigeducation.org The Rethinking School project (subsidised places available – get in touch!): https://bigeducation.org/rethinking-school/ Rethinking Assessment: https://rethinkingassessment.com Support the show This podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. Get 20% off all titles at https://www.crownhouse.co.uk with the promo code REPOD20 (excludes bundles and existing promotions). Become a patron at https://www.patreon.com/repod or make a one-off donation at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod – and help us keep these conversations coming.

    "We need revolution, not evolution!" - Education of the Head, Heart and Hand, with Sarah Seleznyov and Liz Robinson

  2. Jun 25

    The missing science of how we learn - and the “barefoot unschool” that’s already LIVING it

    This might be the most important conversation we've had on this podcast. There's a science of how human beings actually learn – and much of what happens in schools runs against the grain of it. In this episode, James is joined by affective neuroscience specialist Mike Goves and returning guest Kate McAllister, founder of the Hive in the Dominican Republic, to make that case from two directions at once: the research that explains it, and a school already living it. The core idea is deceptively simple: we learn what we care about, not what we're told. Mike makes the scientific case that affect – the felt sense of how good or bad something is – is biologically primary to all learning and memory. Kate offers the living proof: an environment she built, long before she had the vocabulary for it, around children's genuine curiosity and a daily practice of checking in on how they feel. When the science and the lived practice line up this precisely, it's hard to look at a normal classroom the same way again. Along the way we get into: - Why memory prioritises emotional salience over semantic accuracy – and why we reconstruct memories rather than retrieve them - The 'seesaw' model of attention: task focus (the executive control network) at one end, reflection and daydreaming (the default mode network) at the other, with the salience network as the pivot - The research suggesting that keeping young people permanently in task-focus mode may inhibit their development – linked to brain growth, wellbeing and life satisfaction well into their twenties - How narratives bind learning into identity, and why 'a person, a place, a problem' makes kids care about electrolysis - What this looks like in practice, from the freedom of the Hive to the real constraints of a 2,000-pupil urban secondary - A rich, wide-ranging conversation about emotion, meaning and what education could be if we took the biology seriously. Guests Mike Goves – psychology and neuroscience graduate turned teacher and school leader, now working at a multi-academy trust in Oxfordshire, with a growing focus on affect and affective neuroscience. He runs the Affective Learning Lab and has authored a white paper, The affective foundations of human learning, on the science discussed in this episode. Kate McAllister – founder of the Hive in the Dominican Republic and a long-time intuitive practitioner of affect-led, unschooling-inspired education. She returns to the podcast around five years after her first appearance. Links The Affective Learning Lab - https://affectivelearninglab.com White paper: The affective foundations of learning: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bCQYKfm5xbYmlrqG68sPlbbcyVjHrOSg/view Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

    The missing science of how we learn - and the “barefoot unschool” that’s already LIVING it

  3. Jun 6

    “Autonomy isn't ANARCHY!”: A conversation with Sophie Smith-Tong

    Sophie Smith-Tong joins James and David to discuss her book Teacher Autonomy: Where Has It Gone and Why We Need It Back – and the conversation is as rich, funny, and urgent as the title suggests. Sophie is a teacher of 16 years and mental health and wellbeing lead, who came to the question of autonomy through noticing the human cost of a system built on fear. In this episode, she makes the case that the loss of teacher autonomy isn't just a professional grievance – it's a structural wound that affects children's learning, teachers' wellbeing, and the long-term health of the profession. In this episode we explore: - Why only 18% of teachers strongly agree they have freedom over how they do their work – and why Sophie thinks fear is at the root of it - James Callaghan's 'secret garden' speech and the long arc of tightening control since the 1970s - The 'fidelity' culture: from scripted lessons to approved emails to clocks as cognitive overload - Why wellbeing training is a sticking plaster – and what addressing the actual disease might look like - David's 'good tired vs bad tired' distinction, and why autonomy determines which one you get - Sophie's definition of autonomy: not self-rule without support, but self-governance within a collective direction - 'Aligned autonomy', 'connected autonomy', and the difference between tight purpose and loose practice - The curriculum and assessment review: evolution when revolution was needed? - Child autonomy in early years – and why it gets educated out of children by year one - Peter Gray's five educative instincts: curiosity, playfulness, sociability, willfulness, and planfulness - Practical starting points for leaders and teachers: noticing, getting curious, making small changes -The inner work required of controlling leaders – and why self-compassion is the first step Find Sophie: teacherautonomy.com mindfulnessforlearning.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mforlearning/ Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sophie-smith-tong-7b3891207/ Get the book: Teacher Autonomy: Where Has It Gone and Why We Need It Back by Sophie Smith-Tong https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1032874589 Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

    “Autonomy isn't ANARCHY!”: A conversation with Sophie Smith-Tong

  4. Apr 26

    "We NEED to talk about power dynamics in schools! " - with Dee Nic Sitric

    Power is everywhere in schools – in classrooms, staffrooms, policies, and conversations. Yet it is rarely named, examined, or understood. In this episode, James Mannion and David Cameron are joined by Dee Nic Sitric to explore how power operates – often invisibly – and what becomes possible when schools begin to surface it. Drawing on systemic thinking, neurodivergent perspectives, and real-world examples, this conversation examines how power shapes behaviour, relationships, decision-making, and ultimately outcomes for children and young people. Key ideas explored -Why power dynamics are largely invisible but highly influential in schools -The distinction between control and genuine systemic thinking -How slice teams redistribute power and improve decision-making -The role of psychological safety in enabling challenge and curiosity -Why ‘voice’ without influence is not real participation How power shows up in: behaviour systems classroom talk and oracy staff relationships policy and consultation processes The link between mattering (feeling valued + adding value) and power Why reflection – not compliance – is the engine of improvement Standout moments ‘Power isn’t static – it moves, shifts, and often sits where we least expect it.’ ‘Who is allowed to ask questions? That’s where the power lies.’ ‘We cannot be curious and judgemental at the same time.’ A vivid example of how a single interaction in an assembly can redistribute (or remove) power in seconds Practical implications Create structures where multiple perspectives genuinely shape decisions Build psychological safety so staff and students can question and contribute Move from ‘consultation’ to co-production Use reflection routines to examine: ‘Why did we act that way?’ ‘Whose voice was missing?’ Reframe behaviour and classroom talk as questions of power, not just technique About Dee Nic Sitric Dee is the founding director of Autism Champions, a neurodivergent-led organisation supporting schools and systems to better understand and respond to neurodivergent experiences. Her work focuses on systemic thinking, relational practice, and the lived realities of children, families, and staff navigating education systems. Call to action Reflect on your own setting: Who has the most power? Who feels able to speak? Whose perspectives are shaping decisions? Links Autism Champions - https://www.autismchampions.co.uk Follow Dee on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/dee-nic-sitric/ Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

    "We NEED to talk about power dynamics in schools! " - with Dee Nic Sitric

  5. Mar 31

    Learning to be, learning to live together: The missing pillars of education with Sue Roffey

    In this episode, James and David are joined by Sue Roffey – educational psychologist, researcher, and leading voice on wellbeing, social justice, and relational approaches to education. Sue traces her journey from working with young people facing emotional and behavioural challenges, through educational psychology and academia, to her current work developing the ASPIRE principles – a framework for reimagining education through agency, safety, positivity, inclusion, respect and equity. The conversation explores why wellbeing and learning are not competing priorities but deeply intertwined, and why many current approaches to behaviour and school improvement miss this fundamental point. Key themes include: - Why focusing on problems can limit progress – and the importance of vision-led change - The distinction between individual wellbeing and collective flourishing - The concept of ‘mattering’ – feeling valued and adding value - Why agency is essential for both students and teachers - How schools can create cultures of safety where mistakes support learning - The dangers of ‘exclusive belonging’ and the importance of inclusive communities - Practical examples from schools restoring pupils’ love of learning - The enduring relevance of UNESCO’s four pillars: learning to know, learning to do, learning to be, and learning to live together Sue also shares insights from her recent Love of Learning project, involving deep dives into schools across the UK that are successfully building cultures of connection, curiosity and care. This episode offers both a critique of current systems and a hopeful vision of what education could become when relationships, agency and shared humanity are placed at the centre. Links Sue’s website - Growing Great Schools Worldwide - https://www.growinggreatschoolsworldwide.com/who-we-are/sue-roffey/ The primary school where every day starts with dancing - https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/videos/cgqe0pv8vepo Support #repod This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod The Rethinking Education podcast is sponsored by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean.

    Learning to be, learning to live together: The missing pillars of education with Sue Roffey

  6. Mar 7

    Education as expanding dialogue – Rethinking learning with Professor Rupert Wegerif

    “It’s not about teacher-centred or student-centred. I would argue it’s dialogue-centred.” In this episode of the Rethinking Education podcast, Dr James Mannion and The Read David Cameron explore these questions with Professor Rupert Wegerif, author of Rethinking Educational Theory: Education as Expanding Dialogue. Rupert has spent decades researching how dialogue shapes thinking and learning. Drawing on work with Neil Mercer and the Thinking Together programme, he shows how teaching children to reason and talk together can improve thinking, deepen understanding across subjects, and even transform classroom culture. But this conversation goes far beyond classroom strategies. Rupert argues that dialogue is not just a teaching technique – it is a fundamental way of understanding knowledge, identity, and even reality itself. In this wide-ranging discussion we explore: - Why teaching children how to talk together can dramatically improve learning outcomes - The origins of the Thinking Together programme and what the research found in classrooms - Why group work often fails – and how simple ground rules for dialogue can transform it - The relationship between oracy, dialogue and thinking - The idea of culture as a “living tradition” that students must learn to participate in - How dialogue can bridge the long-running divide between traditional and progressive education - Rupert’s concept of “double dialogue” – learning through conversation with both peers and disciplinary traditions - Why education should be dialogue-centred, rather than teacher-centred or student-centred - The deeper philosophical idea that knowledge and meaning emerge through dialogic space - What generative AI means for education – and why dialogic thinking may matter more than ever Along the way, the conversation ranges from classroom practice to philosophy, drawing on thinkers such as Vygotsky, Bakhtin, Paulo Freire, Michael Oakeshott and Merleau-Ponty. The result is a fascinating exploration of education as something far richer than the transmission of information – a process of entering, expanding and contributing to the ongoing dialogue of human culture. About Rupert Wegerif Professor Rupert Wegerif is Professor of Education at the University of Cambridge. His work focuses on dialogic education, thinking and learning, and the role of dialogue in human development. He has worked extensively with Neil Mercer and others on the Thinking Together programme, exploring how structured dialogue can improve reasoning, understanding and collaboration in classrooms. Links Rupert’s Substack - https://rupertwegerif.substack.com Rupert’s website - https://www.rupertwegerif.com Support #repod The Rethinking Education podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It is hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. This podcast is a labour of love, with the emphasis on both the labour and the love. If you’d like to support the podcast and convey your appreciation for these conversations, you can: Become a patron: https://www.patreon.com/repod Buy us a coffee: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod

    Education as expanding dialogue – Rethinking learning with Professor Rupert Wegerif

  7. Mar 6

    Teaching that grips: Hywel Roberts on the Pedagogy of Botheredness

    Why do so many lessons feel disconnected to students – even when the content is genuinely fascinating? In this episode, Dr James Mannion is joined by teacher and author Hywel Roberts to explore 'botheredness' – a way of teaching that draws students into learning through narrative, curiosity and shared imagination. They discuss why pupils often struggle to see the relevance of what they are learning, and how small shifts in pedagogy can transform a lesson from something students comply with into something they actively care about. As Hywel explains, the key is not entertainment or gimmicks, but creating context, tension and meaning around knowledge. The conversation explores practical techniques such as ‘let’s say’ narratives, teacher-in-role, and the use of story structures built around people, place and problem. These approaches help teachers bring abstract knowledge to life and ‘protect students into learning’ by making them feel safe, curious and invested in the lesson. James also reflects on the challenge many teachers face: delivering a knowledge-rich curriculum that can sometimes feel like a sequence of disconnected topics. Together they explore how storytelling and implementation thinking can help embed this approach into everyday classroom practice. They also introduce a new professional learning programme combining the pedagogy of botheredness with implementation science, designed to help teachers move from one-off inspiration to sustained classroom change. In this episode: - Why students often ask ‘Why are we learning this?’ - The difference between engagement and investment in learning - How stories create curiosity, tension and motivation - The power of ‘let’s say…’ as an invitation into learning - What it means to ‘protect children into learning’ - Using narrative as retrieval and assessment - The barriers that stop imaginative pedagogy becoming routine practice - How implementation thinking can help make botheredness stick Links and resources Hywel's website: https://botheredness.co.uk Implementing Botheredness 2026: https://www.makingchangestick.co/implementing-botheredness-2026 Book a free 20-minute call: https://calendly.com/rethinkingjames/implementing-botheredness-chat-with-james-hywel

    Teaching that grips: Hywel Roberts on the Pedagogy of Botheredness

  8. Mar 1

    Seven minutes out of every thirty are lost to low-level disruption. But why?

    In this episode, featuring a webinar we ran this week, Tara Elie and Dr James Mannion explore a question that many school leaders are quietly wrestling with: Why do so many behaviour initiatives fail to deliver sustained change? Across the system, the signals are hard to ignore – rising suspensions, internal removals, persistent absence, staff exhaustion, and a growing sense that behaviour reform is absorbing huge energy without always shifting underlying patterns. In this conversation, we argue that two critical ideas are largely missing from the behaviour debate: - The psychology of mattering - Implementation and improvement science When combined, these lenses offer a more systemic, more hopeful way forward. Part 1: The psychology of mattering Tara introduces the concept of mattering, drawing on the work of Morris Rosenberg and contemporary positive psychology. Mattering has two components: feeling valued, and adding value. We explore: - The difference between mattering and self-esteem - What staff mattering looks like in practice - What “anti-mattering” feels like in schools - The emotional and behavioural consequences of quiet disengagement - Why belonging is an outcome of mattering – not the target itself We discuss how staff who feel unseen, unheard or replaceable may withdraw effort, reduce collaboration, and disengage in subtle but powerful ways. Conversely, when staff feel significant and influential, resilience, agency and motivation follow. The same applies to students. Part 2: Why behaviour reform so often stalls James explores a sobering question: What proportion of school improvement initiatives actually improve outcomes in a sustained way? We examine two core reasons change efforts frequently falter: - Teachers and leaders are rarely taught how to implement change effectively - Schools default to top-down, “black box” leadership models We unpack the risks of: - Compliance cultures - Groupthink - ‘Us and them’ dynamics - Initiative fatigue And we introduce a more transparent alternative: the slice team – a representative cross-section of the school community that improves decision-making and strengthens buy-in. Root cause analysis: looking beneath the surface We then turn to a practical example. A widely cited statistic suggests that seven minutes out of every thirty are lost to low-level disruption. Rather than treating this as a behaviour problem alone, we demonstrate how to conduct a root cause analysis: - Identifying the trunk (the presenting issue) - Mapping the consequences - Investigating the roots across physical, emotional, relational, cognitive, behavioural and navigational domains The key insight: the same visible behaviour can arise from very different root systems. Behaviour reform without diagnosis is guesswork. Key ideas explored: - Mattering as a driver of culture - Anti-mattering and quiet withdrawal - Why belonging runs downstream of mattering - Black box vs glass box leadership - Slice teams as a mechanism for distributed ownership - Root cause analysis in school improvement - Why policy launch is not implementation - Habit change and “tight but loose” planning If behaviour is live in your context We are currently offering 20-minute Behaviour Strategy Calls for school leaders who would value a structured diagnostic conversation about behaviour, mattering and implementation. You can book here: https://calendly.com/rethinkingjames/chat-with-tara-james Further resources Download the Rethinking Behaviour guide - https://www.makingchangestick.co/rethinking-behaviour-free-guide Explore implementation science tools from Making Change Stick - https://www.makingchangestick.co

    Seven minutes out of every thirty are lost to low-level disruption. But why?
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Ratings & Reviews

4.3
out of 5
6 Ratings

About

"Civilisation is a race between education and catastrophe." (HG Wells) In this podcast, we take Wells at his word. Hosted by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, Rethinking Education features long-form conversations with fascinating guests about how we might create a more diverse, intelligent, responsive educational ecosystem that works for *all* young people. If this sounds interesting to you, welcome to Rethinking Education: Education's Critical Friend: https://rethinking-ed.org/podcast

Information

  • Creator
    Dr James Mannion
  • Years Active
    2020 - 2026
  • Episodes
    118
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © All rights reserved
  • Show Website
    Rethinking Education

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