What if one of the biggest assumptions underpinning modern education is simply wrong? We tend to think of the mind as the place where the important stuff happens – thinking, reasoning, remembering and learning – while the body is something we carry around with us. But what if there is no meaningful separation between the two? In this episode, James and David are joined by Guy Claxton and Emily Poel, authors of Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education, to explore what happens when we take the body seriously as part of intelligence and learning. The conversation begins with the historical roots of the mind-body split and its influence on education. Guy argues that the hierarchy of subjects in schools – with mathematics and other highly abstract subjects traditionally occupying the top of the pecking order, while PE, dance, drama and practical subjects are given lower status – reflects a much deeper cultural assumption that intelligence belongs primarily to the mind. We then explore the emerging field of embodiment science and the idea of 4E cognition – embodied, enactive, embedded and extended. Rather than seeing the brain as a detached command centre controlling the body, this perspective sees intelligent behaviour as emerging from the constant interaction between brain, body, environment and other people. Guy explains why predictive processing provides such a powerful way of thinking about learning. We are constantly making predictions about the world, and learning happens when those predictions are disrupted – when we are surprised, confused, frustrated or uncertain. Learning, in this sense, is much more than committing information to memory. We also discuss: Why the language of “bodymind” feels so strange at first – and why we should persevere with this term. How our emotions, bodily states and sense of salience influence what we learn. Why the brain may be better understood as a “chat room” than a command centre. What embodiment science tells us about the limitations of purely cognitive explanations of children's behaviour and learning. Why progressive approaches such as inquiry, experiential, project-based and hands-on learning may have more in common than we realise. Whether schools should deliberately cultivate learning dispositions such as curiosity, persistence, empathy and collaboration – rather than focusing primarily on examination performance. Why promising approaches to education have often remained isolated rather than being scaled. The 87 practical things to try in Bodies of Learning, from increasing body awareness to using movement, physical space, play and imagination as part of learning. What an embodied approach might actually look like in different subjects, classrooms and schools. And, finally, Guy's suggestion for the poster that should hang in every teacher training institution and staffroom. This is a wide-ranging conversation about neuroscience, psychology, philosophy, education and human development. But ultimately it comes back to a deceptively simple question: What are schools actually for? If education is partly about helping young people become more capable, curious, resilient, empathetic and intelligent human beings, perhaps we need a much richer conception of what intelligence and learning actually are. About our guests Guy Claxton is Emeritus Professor of the Learning Sciences at the University of Winchester Centre for Real-World Learning, UK, and author of The Future of Teaching and Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs Your Body Much More Than It Thinks. Emily Poel is a Berlin-based embodiment practitioner and trainer with a background in somatic practices, contemporary dance and history. She develops approaches that show how movement and physical awareness shape learning, thinking and creativity, and has taught internationally for over 15 years.
