Friends Who Argue

Various

Welcome to Friends Who Argue, a podcast for the litigation bar brought to you by The Advocates’ Society and hosted by our Young Advocates' and 10+ Standing Committees. Friends Who Argue features intimate conversations with advocates from across Canada, who will share stories from their journeys as advocates. As litigators, we live in an adversarial world but we all have one thing in common - we are officers of the court who are passionate about the profession of law and advocating for our clients. We hope you find these conversations informative, inspiring and most of all, entertaining. By Advocates. For Advocates. Land Acknowledgement: The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples. We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory. While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work. We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

  1. 09/29/2025

    Business Development for Litigators

    This episode of the podcast, hosted by Eric Sherkin, a partner at Miller Thomson LLP in Toronto, features a discussion about business development for litigators, with lawyer and career coach Jane Southren and Kelly Osaka, a partner at Dentons LLP in Calgary. The conversation explores mindset shifts needed to effectively transition from associate to partner, relationship-building techniques, and practical tips for balancing business development with other professional and personal responsibilities. Listeners will gain insights into leveraging modern tools, creating personalized approaches, and building sustainable practices in today’s evolving legal landscape. Eric Sherkin is a commercial litigation lawyer at Miller Thomson, with broad experience across many areas of practice, and a particular focus on creditors’ remedies and contract disputes. He has appeared at all levels of court in Ontario, has extensive experience with injunctions, and maintains a growing practice in property tax assessment appeals under the Assessment Act. Eric has been recognized as a “Future Star” by Benchmark Litigation since 2022 and a Thomson Reuters “Standout Lawyer” since 2023. He is an active member of his community and currently serves on The Advocates’ Society’s Mid-Career Advocates Standing Committee (MASC). Jane Southren is the Founder of Southren Group Inc. (SGI), a coaching and consulting firm that empowers lawyers and law firms to build sustainable, fulfilling practices. With nearly 30 years of experience as a litigator, business development leader, and executive coach, Jane brings rare insight into the human side of legal success. At SGI, she leads programs that blend behavioural science, strategy, and real-world application—helping lawyers align their practices with their values, relationships, and goals. Known for inspiring confidence and sparking growth, Jane's mission is to help people think, be, and do better - professionally and personally. Kelly Osaka is a Partner at Dentons in Calgary in the Litigation and Dispute Resolution group, the Privacy and Cybersecurity group, and co-lead of the Privacy Litigation subgroup. Kelly is known for her expertise in complex commercial litigation, with a focus on class action defence, securities litigation, shareholder disputes, plans of arrangement, ESG and greenwashing risks and navigating governance best practices. Kelly is a trusted leader in privacy and cybersecurity, providing practical solutions in a rapidly evolving landscape. She is a frequent speaker and writer on litigation and privacy topics, offering practical, business-focused legal solutions. Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory. While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work. We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    38 min
  2. 08/01/2025

    Reflections of a Former Tax Court Judge - Part 2

    In the second part of this two-part series, the Honourable Patrick Boyle continues his conversation with Justin Kutyan, National Leader of the Tax Litigation group at KPMG Law LLP, to discuss Patrick’s reflections from serving as a judge on the Tax Court of Canada for 17 years. In episode two, Patrick shares what he found to be effective (or not effective) advocacy from counsel, discusses different litigation styles, provides tips for litigators to consider, and closes with his thoughts on the future of the Tax Court. The former Justice Boyle is Of Counsel with KPMG Law. Prior to joining KPMG Law, Patrick served as a Justice of the Tax Court of Canada for over 17 years, and he previously worked with a large national law firm in Toronto and Ottawa for 25 years. He holds common law and civil law degrees and is bilingual. On the Tax Court, he presided over English and French appeals, served as Acting Associate Chief Justice, Education Committee Chair, and member of the Rules Committee. Prior to his judicial appointment, Patrick’s practice focused on financial institutions, services and transactions, corporate and commercial transactions, and the taxation and regulation of charities and not-for-profits. He litigated cases in the Tax Court, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal. He also taught Advanced Tax at University of Windsor Law School, was on secondment for two years at the Tax Policy Branch of the Department of Finance as Special Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister. Justin Kutyan specializes in litigating tax cases and leads KPMG Law’s National Tax Litigation team. He has extensive experience in trial advocacy, and is well-versed in strategic and tactical courtroom skills that can help to win at trial or produce favourable settlements. Justin has successfully resolved disputes involving a wide range of income tax, GST/HST, and customs issues. Over the course of his career, Justin has appeared before the Tax Court of Canada, Canadian International Trade Tribunal, Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Federal Court, and Federal Court of Appeal. He has also assisted on cases before the Supreme Court of Canada. He also advises on all other stages in the dispute process, and has familiarity navigating the audit and appeals process with Canada Revenue Agency. Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory. While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work. We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    48 min
  3. 07/21/2025

    Reflections of a Former Tax Court Judge - Part 1

    In the first episode of this two-part series, the Honourable Patrick Boyle sits down with Justin Kutyan, National Leader of the Tax Litigation group at KPMG Law LLP to discuss Patrick’s reflections from serving as a judge on the Tax Court of Canada for 17 years. In episode one, Patrick shares what it was like to get the phone call appointing him to the Court and the lifestyle differences moving from private practice on Bay Street to serving on the bench. He also explains how the Tax Court fits within Canada’s legal systems and aspects of the Tax Court that are unique or different from other courts. The former Justice Boyle is Of Counsel with KPMG Law. Prior to joining KPMG Law, Patrick served as a Justice of the Tax Court of Canada for over 17 years, and he previously worked with a large national law firm in Toronto and Ottawa for 25 years. He holds common law and civil law degrees and is bilingual. On the Tax Court, he presided over English and French appeals, served as Acting Associate Chief Justice, Education Committee Chair, and member of the Rules Committee. Prior to his judicial appointment, Patrick’s practice focused on financial institutions, services and transactions, corporate and commercial transactions, and the taxation and regulation of charities and not-for-profits. He litigated cases in the Tax Court, the Federal Court and the Federal Court of Appeal. He also taught Advanced Tax at University of Windsor Law School, was on secondment for two years at the Tax Policy Branch of the Department of Finance as Special Advisor to the Assistant Deputy Minister. Justin Kutyan specializes in litigating tax cases and leads KPMG Law’s National Tax Litigation team. He has extensive experience in trial advocacy, and is well-versed in strategic and tactical courtroom skills that can help to win at trial or produce favourable settlements. Justin has successfully resolved disputes involving a wide range of income tax, GST/HST, and customs issues. Over the course of his career, Justin has appeared before the Tax Court of Canada, Canadian International Trade Tribunal, Ontario Superior Court of Justice, Federal Court, and Federal Court of Appeal. He has also assisted on cases before the Supreme Court of Canada. He also advises on all other stages in the dispute process, and has familiarity navigating the audit and appeals process with Canada Revenue Agency. Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory. While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work. We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    34 min
  4. 05/05/2025

    Beyond Big Law: Transitioning to Small Firm Practice

    This episode of Friends Who Argue features a discussion panel with three lawyers who have made the transition from BigLaw to found very different types of small or solo legal practices. Our speakers include Alexi Wood, Ryan Breedan, and John McIntyre. Our panelists discuss the very different reasons why they decided to found an independent legal practice, the myths and misconceptions of starting a small law practice, what challenges they overcame, and why they value the freedom of small or solo practice. Alexi Wood graduated law school in 2000 and started out carrying out non-private practice work relating to international development and the Canadian Civil Liberties Association. Alexi transitioned to BigLaw six or seven years after law school, and valued the commercial litigation training she received working in BigLaw for the decade that followed. Alexi struck out to found a law practice that was more flexible, diverse, and responsive to a mission statement that she could champion (as well as to benefit from conflict of interest referrals). Ryan Breedon made partner at a “big” Bay Street litigation boutique and was essentially content with his career. However, circa 2015 his wife and him wanted to relocate their young family back to Barrie, Ontario, where they had roots. Remote working was not yet a thing that law firms did at this time, which led Ryan to found his own solo practice. This eventually led to hiring some associate or two, and, recently, a partnership. While not his purpose, Ryan very much valued the flexibility and ability to make independent decisions that being a solo/small practitioner provided him. John McIntrye gained valuable experience in the health law specialty while articling and being an associate in BigLaw. John began to feel increasingly constrained by the bureaucratic environment he was in. He therefore left legal practice to pursue a master of public health at John Hopkins in the United States, intending to continue his career in the health sector but not necessarily legal practice. With the pandemic having very much put remote work on the table, John initially carried out Canadian health law work as something of a side practice while in graduate studies. In 2022, however, he joined forces with Jessica Szabo and embarked on a business development spree to found a boutique health law firm. This was successful, although a growing business leads to its own challenges.  Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.   While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.   We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    1h 23m
  5. 04/10/2025

    Pour un mentorat fructueux avec Julie Chenette et Antoine Veillette

    This episode of Friends Who Argue marks our first French episode, as we are discussing mentoring with TAS’ Quebec recipient of the Excellence in Mentoring Award, Julie Chenette. Dans un entretien avec Antoine Veillette, nos deux invités ont l’occasion d’échanger sur ce que la relation de mentorat leur apporte, sur l’identification d’un bon mentor et l’opportunité d’en identifier un au sein de son cabinet ou à l’externe, les principaux conseils pour un mentorat fructueux et certains aspects moins fréquemment discutés du mentorat. Julie Chenette est associée fondatrice chez Chenette, boutique de litige. Me Chenette a fondé son cabinet après avoir pratiqué pendant près de 20 ans comme avocate puis comme associée au sein du groupe du litige, des recours collectifs et de la responsabilité professionnelle chez McCarthy Tétrault à Montréal. Avocate renommée en litige de responsabilité professionnelle, diffamation et enquêtes disciplinaires, elle a donné plusieurs conférences dans les domaines du droit de la responsabilité des professionnels et de la déontologie, et a enseigné la procédure et la responsabilité civile à l’École du Barreau du Québec. Me Chenette a reçu en 2024 le prix d’Excellence en mentorat de la Société des plaideurs qui récompense les plaideurs qui ont fait preuve d’un engagement exceptionnel et d’excellence dans le mentorat au Québec. Antoine Veillette est avocat chez Langlois. Habitué d’intervenir dans le cadre de litiges complexes en matière civile et commerciale, il exerce principalement en droit de la consommation et de l’environnement ainsi qu’en matière de responsabilité du fabricant. Il est aussi appelé à agir à tout stade de l’instance en matière de faillite et d’insolvabilité. Impliqué auprès de la Société des plaideurs, Me Veillette est à un point de son parcours professionnel où il agit à titre de mentor tout en poursuivant sa propre relation comme mentoré, lui permettant ainsi d’échanger sur ces deux aspects avec Me Chenette. Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.   While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.   We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    27 min
  6. 01/30/2025

    Litigating Fraud Cases: the good, the bad, and the ugly

    In this episode of Friends Who Argue, we’re joined by seasoned commercial litigators Allison Speigel and Pete Smiley to break down the complexities of litigating fraud cases. In our discussion, we explore the good, the bad, and the ugly of fraud litigation—highlighting key challenges, common pitfalls, and strategies for success. The episode also delves into recent high-profile fraud cases, offering expert analysis on what they reveal about current trends in fraud law. Tune in for valuable insights and practical advice from two experienced voices in the field. Allison Speigel is a partner with the law firm of Speigel Nichols Fox LLP. She is a commercial litigator whose practice focuses on construction, complex commercial, contract, insolvency, real estate, professional negligence, and fraud matters. Allison recognizes and has written extensively about how flawed our legal system is and how taxing litigation can be. Despite her innate desire to battle it out in court, Allison is always thinking about creative ways to settle matters and makes every attempt to do so. Perhaps due to her writing on the subject matter, Allison was asked by the Attorney General of Ontario and the Chief Justice to co-chair a twelve person working group tasked with conducting a full review of the Rules of Civil Procedure. Allison accepted the position without hesitation and began working on the project in 2024. Allison has high hopes that the working group will be able to make fundamental changes to our civil justice system to make it more efficient, less expensive, faster, and, ultimately, more accessible. Peter Smiley is a creative and dedicated litigator, with experience at all levels of court. His personal attention, significant experience and commitment to putting his clients first are how he manages to consistently achieve positive solutions. Peter has experience representing a wide range of individuals, organizations, and businesses. His litigation and dispute resolution expertise encompasses a range of complex commercial and civil litigation matters. Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.   While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.   We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    36 min
  7. 11/26/2024

    Interview with 2023 Catzman Award Recipient Nader Hasan

    This episode of Friends Who Argue features an interview with the recipient of the 2023 Catzman Award for Professionalism and Civility, Nader Hasan, conducted by his law Partner at Stockwoods LLP, Gerald Chan. Nader Hasan discusses his experiences with mentorship in his career, handling high-profile cases covered by the media, time management, and receiving the 2023 Catzman Award. Nader Hasan is a Partner at Stockwoods LLP and the recipient of The Advocates’ Society’s 2023 Catzman Award for Professionalism and Civility. He practises criminal, regulatory and constitutional law at the trial and appellate levels, and defends clients accused of white-collar crime, violent offences, drug offences, and professional misconduct. He has appeared in more than 30 cases at the Supreme Court of Canada. Nader has been repeatedly recognized by Best Lawyers Canada and Benchmark Litigation, and by Canadian Lawyer Top 25 Most Influential Lawyers in 2020. Nader is a veteran Adjunct Professor at the University of Toronto, Faculty of Law, where he has taught the Law of Evidence and currently teaches a popular class on crime and punishment. Toronto Life recently named him one of the Top 50 Most Influential Torontonians of 2024. Gerald Chan is a Partner at Stockwoods LLP practicing criminal, administrative, and select civil litigation, with a special focus on white collar criminal and regulatory defence. He has been named one of the Top 25 Most Influential Lawyers in Canada (Canadian Lawyer, 2019), White-Collar Crime/Enforcement Litigator of the Year (Benchmark Litigation, 2023), and Criminal Defence Lawyer of the Year, Toronto (Best Lawyers, 2024). Gerald is a fellow of the International Academy of Trial Lawyers and he has been recognized twice as one of the Top 50 Trial Lawyers in Canada (Benchmark Litigation, 2023-2024). He is also an advocacy advisor with the Supreme Court Advocacy Institute, having been counsel in over 20 appeals in the Supreme Court of Canada. Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.   While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.   We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    47 min
  8. 10/31/2024

    Interview with Adrienne S. Smith - 2024 recipient of The Joe Arvay Award

    In this episode, Samantha Chang of Dentons Vancouver interviews Adrienne Smith, a transgender human rights activist and social justice lawyer, and winner of the 2024 Joe Arvay Award. The award recognizes an advocate in British Columbia for advancing a claim or area of law under challenging circumstances. Adrienne reflects on their work advocating for, among others, workers, women, and drug users. Join us for an inspiring conversation about navigating advocacy and justice as a sole practitioner. Adrienne Smith is a transgender human rights activist and social justice lawyer. They recently argued a BC human rights case which clarified employers’ obligations to recognize correct pronouns for transgender and non-binary workers. Adrienne appeared at the BC Cout of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada where they argued about the deleterious effects of mandatory minimum sentences for women, Indigenous people, and drug users, and made submissions in defense of transgender children under section 15 of the Charter. As a trade union activist, they advocate for transgender inclusion in our unions and workplaces. Adrienne is the litigation director at the Catherine White Holman Wellness Clinic where they give free legal advice, take on human rights cases, and notarize name and gender change documents for trans people. Samantha Chang is a senior associate in the Litigation and Dispute Resolution group in Dentons’ Vancouver office. She acts as counsel in complex commercial litigation, class action defense, and commercial arbitrations and mediations, with a focus on shareholder disputes, oppression proceedings, contested transactions, securities litigation, contractual disputes, professional negligence, and competition law. Samantha is a member of the British Columbia Regional Advisory Committee of The Advocates Society. Land Acknowledgement The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples.  We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory.   While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work.   We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.

    33 min

About

Welcome to Friends Who Argue, a podcast for the litigation bar brought to you by The Advocates’ Society and hosted by our Young Advocates' and 10+ Standing Committees. Friends Who Argue features intimate conversations with advocates from across Canada, who will share stories from their journeys as advocates. As litigators, we live in an adversarial world but we all have one thing in common - we are officers of the court who are passionate about the profession of law and advocating for our clients. We hope you find these conversations informative, inspiring and most of all, entertaining. By Advocates. For Advocates. Land Acknowledgement: The Advocates’ Society acknowledges that our offices, located in Toronto, are on the customary and traditional lands of the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Haudenosaunee, the Anishinabek, the Huron-Wendat and now home to many First Nations, Inuit, and Metis peoples. We acknowledge current treaty holders, the Mississaugas of the Credit and honour their long history of welcoming many nations to this territory. While The Advocates’ Society is based in Toronto, we are a national organization with Directors and members located across Canada in the treaty and traditional territories of many Indigenous Peoples. We encourage our members to reflect upon their relationships with the Indigenous Peoples in these territories, and the history of the land on which they live and work. We acknowledge the devastating impacts of colonization, including the history of residential schools, for many Indigenous peoples, families, and communities and commit to fostering diversity, equity, and inclusiveness in an informed legal profession in Canada and within The Advocates’ Society.