Our Agile Tales

Mun-Wai Chung & JF Unson
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Once upon a time, in an agile land, we navigate corporate levels and political waters to transform the business to be adaptable to this forever changing world. We are excited to share with you our agile journey. Enjoy our tales as we weave our stories together, sometimes with others, on our podcasts.

  1. FEB 24

    Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation Episode #4

    Welcome back to Our Agile Tales as we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes, exploring case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. The book distills nearly three decades of experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management. In this episode, we examine Beyond Budgeting through two case studies: Miles and David Lloyd Clubs. Miles is a Norwegian IT consulting company founded in reaction to command-and-control micromanagement. It operates without budgets and with minimal KPIs, guided by an evergreen financial ambition of maintaining a profit margin above 10%  without cascaded targets or bonus links. Employees enjoy wide autonomy, with transparency as the primary control mechanism: purchases and training costs are posted on the intranet for shared learning. Miles places strong emphasis on recruitment and cultural fit, taking at least ten references and interviewing for beliefs, values, and attitudes. Employees assess technical skills and can veto candidates. The company invests heavily in social cohesion, including spouse-only events, and practices servant leadership, with the CEO retitling himself “Chief Servant Leader.” Bjarte notes that Miles was essentially “born beyond budgeting” and has sustained its principles through growth by consciously resisting bureaucracy, including internal leadership succession. The second case study, David Lloyd Clubs, a high-end UK gym chain with around 300 clubs, represents one of the fastest Beyond Budgeting implementations Bjarte has seen: launched in October 2019 and fully budget-free by January 2021. The model helped the company not only survive COVID-19 but emerge stronger. Key practices included increased club autonomy, strong internal benchmarking, transparency, and local involvement in KPI selection. Central target setting was reduced, with emphasis on relative performance rather than detailed annual targets tied to bonuses. Ownership by private equity firm TDR Capital supported the shift, focusing on leadership and management improvement rather than cost-cutting. Bjarte attributes the speed to strong owner backing, a capable controller leading the effort, and a supportive CEO, while noting that mindset change takes longer than process change. HR played a key role in shifting performance evaluation toward relative measures and maintaining shared club-level bonuses instead of individual incentives. Key topics and timestamps 00:00 Welcome01:07 Miles Overview02:47 Transparency Over Budgets04:15 Recruiting and Culture06:05 Servant Leadership06:46 Born Beyond Budgeting10:37 Sustaining Beliefs at Scale12:23 David Lloyd Clubs13:09 Rapid Rollout13:56 Benchmarking and Rhythm17:41 Why It Worked20:53 Relative Performance24:45 Transparency and Learning26:47 HR and Rewards28:15 Results and ConclusionAbout Bjarte Bogsnes Bjarte Bogsnes is Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, showing how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability — creating companies that are both more responsive and more human. Follow Bjarte at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/ Music: https://www.purple-planet.com Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    29 min

  2. FEB 3

    Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation Episode #3

    Welcome back to Our Agile Tales, where we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes to go over case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. His new book distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management. In this episode of 'Our Agile Tales,' we welcome back Bjarte Bogsnes, Chairman of Beyond Budgeting Round Table, to explore the principles and practices of Beyond Budgeting. Bogsnes shares his extensive experience and insights on how Beyond Budgeting can drive performance by empowering employees and promoting coherence across management processes. The conversation delves into Handelsbanken's unique approach to employee bonuses, performance reviews, promotions, and training, highlighting the bank's emphasis on long-term employee development and consistent management philosophies. This episode offers valuable lessons for companies looking to create more adaptive and human organizations. Key topics and approximate timestamps 00:00 Introduction to Our Agile Tales01:20 Beyond Budgeting and Performance Reviews01:54 The Common Bonus Scheme03:29 Coherence in Management Processes05:46 Handling Non-Performance07:48 KPIs and Performance Enabling09:59 Sales Commissions and Career Paths16:49 Training and Onboarding at Handelsbanken20:58 Final Thoughts on Handelsbanken25:02 Episode Conclusion About Bjarte Bogsnes Bjarte Bogsnes is the Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, where he distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management. Bjarte's work demonstrates how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability. The result is creating companies that are not only more responsive but also more human. You can follow Bjarte Bogsnes at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/ Our music is from https://www.purple-planet.com. Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    25 min

  3. JAN 20

    Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation Episode #2

    Welcome back to Our Agile Tales, where we continue our conversation with Bjarte Bogsnes to go over case studies from his latest book, This Is Beyond Budgeting. His new book distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management. In this episode, we discuss the ingrained corporate budgeting practices, their inefficacies, and how to shift towards more adaptive, event-driven planning. The conversation also delves into the performance management debate and examines Handelsbanken's exceptional model, a bank that has successfully operated without traditional budgets, targets, or individual bonuses since the 1970s. Bjarte emphasizes the importance of separating accounting from forward-looking planning and highlights the impact of empowering employees and fostering transparency in achieving organizational success. Key topics and approximate timestamps 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales01:08 Challenges with Traditional Budgeting02:04 Separating Accounting from Forward Planning03:49 The Importance of Dynamic Management05:47 Rethinking Performance Management09:42 Case Study: Handelsbanken13:50 The Origins of Handelsbanken's Approach17:59 The Evolution of Beyond Budgeting20:46 Handelsbanken's Unique Management Model29:30 Episode ConclusionAbout Bjarte Bogsnes Bjarte Bogsnes is the Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, where he distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management. Bjarte's work demonstrates how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability. The result is creating companies that are not only more responsive but also more human. You can follow Bjarte Bogsnes at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/ Our music is from https://www.purple-planet.com. Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    30 min

  4. JAN 6

    Beyond Budgeting: 25 Years of Management Innovation Episode #1

    Welcome to a new season of Our Agile Tales.  We have brought back Bjarte Bogsnes, Chairman of Beyond Budgeting Round Table, and is a popular international business speaker and Beyond Budgeting coach. He is an award-winning author and long-time champion of more adaptive human organizations. In this series of episodes, Bjarte reflects on 25 years of management innovation and the evolution of Beyond Budgeting far beyond its financial origins. Our episode starts with a refresher on what Beyond Budgeting is, and why it is so often misunderstood as "just a finance thing." From there, we explore how deeply traditional management assumptions shape behavior, trust, and decision-making inside organizations. Bjarte uses metaphors, real-world examples, and decades of experience to explain why many well-intended Agile and Lean transformations stall or fail if they don't address and rethink the management processes. We dive into Theory X and Theory Y, the hidden damage caused by fixed targets and calendar-driven planning, and how separating targets, forecasts, and resource allocation can fundamentally change behavior. Throughout the episode, Bjarte makes the case that true business agility requires coherence and alignment between leadership principles and management systems. Without this alignment, successful long-term transformations will not be achieved. Key topics and approximate timestamps 00:00 – Introduction to Our Agile Tales01:52 – Why Beyond Budgeting is not about finance—and why the name still matters04:30 – Challenging traditional management assumptions: trust and predictability07:10 – Leadership principles vs. management processes: where companies break coherence10:00 – Why Agile and Lean need Beyond Budgeting to scale at the enterprise level13:21 – Theory X and Theory Y: how beliefs about people shape management models16:40 – The problem with combining targets, forecasts, and resource allocation18:30 – Gaming, sandbagging, and unintended consequences of budgeting systems20:24 – What's wrong with traditional targets—and how relative targets change behavior23:10 – Moving from calendar-driven planning to business- and event-driven rhythms26:00 – Continuous decision-making as a Beyond Budgeting version of continuous delivery28:29 – Closing reflections and broader implications for adaptive organizationsAbout Bjarte Bogsnes Bjarte Bogsnes is the Chairman of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table, a former global finance executive, and a leading thinker in management innovation. He is the author of Implementing Beyond Budgeting and This Is Beyond Budgeting, where he distills nearly three decades of real-world experience challenging traditional budgeting, targets, and control-based management. Bjarte's work demonstrates how organizations can replace rigid, calendar-driven systems with models built on trust, transparency, and adaptability. The result is creating companies that are not only more responsive but also more human. You can follow Bjarte Bogsnes at https://www.linkedin.com/in/bjarte-bogsnes-41557910/ Our music is from https://www.purple-planet.com. Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    29 min

  5. 12/16/2025

    Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action Episode #3

    Welcome to another episode of Our Agile Tales, Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action! In this episode, we continue our conversation with Ondřej Dvořák, CEO of Agile Lawyer and COP Solutions, and co-founder of LinkingHelp. Building on his experience supporting Ukrainian refugees, Ondřej shares how Agile practices like Scrum and Kanban made it possible to coordinate large-scale, cross-border legal aid while respecting privacy and professional responsibility. We explore how visibility and transparency enabled fast action without exposing sensitive data, why government funding often moves too slowly for crisis response, and how donation-driven initiatives struggle once a crisis becomes the “new normal.” Ondřej argues that sustainable humanitarian work must blend social impact with viable business models. The conversation also dives into AI in legal services—not as a silver bullet, but as an accelerator that only works once processes, data, and transparency are in place. We discuss why AI should assist lawyers rather than replace them, the data-protection concerns slowing adoption, and what the future holds for agile, AI-assisted law firms. Episode Outline 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales00:53 Agility in Humanitarian Efforts02:12 Transparency and Visibility in Legal Aid03:55 Challenges with Government Bureaucracy05:39 LinkingHelp's Broader Impact07:53 AI's Role in Legal Services11:11 Future of AI and Agile in Law22:07 Key Takeaways and Advice23:43 Conclusion About Ondrej Dvorak Ondřej is the co-founder of Linking Help, a nonprofit that mobilized legal aid for Ukrainian refugees using Scrum and Kanban to coordinate real-time support. It’s a powerful story of how agility can make a real difference in humanitarian crises—far beyond the domain of business. Andre’s work shows how Agile thinking can help even the most traditional sectors become more humane, responsive, and resilient.  You can follow Ondřej on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ondrej-dvorak-agile/ Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    29 min

  6. 12/02/2025

    Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action Episode #2

    Welcome to another episode of Our Agile Tales, Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action! In this continuation of our conversation with Ondřej Dvořák, CEO of AgiLawyer and COPS Solutions, we go deeper into how you actually run and scale an agile, cross-border legal-aid initiative in the middle of a war. If the first episode was about launching Linking Help, this one is about surviving the scale-up. Ondřej walks us through the messy, very human side of scaling legal aid for Ukrainian refugees: from dealing with thousands of requests in a language he didn’t speak, to building a “clearing desk” and help desk function led by Ukrainian lawyers, to teaching volunteer lawyers across multiple countries how to work in a pull-based, Kanban system when they’re used to command-and-control and assigned work. We explore how culture and ways of working showed up in very concrete ways - why France “just got it” from day one, while countries like Romania needed more support and education before becoming top performers. Ondřej talks about how simplifying the Kanban system (fewer columns, fewer concepts, one clear task: connect the person to a lawyer) was crucial to onboarding busy legal professionals quickly in a crisis. We also dig into scaling patterns: how they expanded country by country, used “early adopter” lawyers to grow local networks, and centralized the help desk while keeping case work decentralized. From there, the conversation shifts to constraints: the difficulty of fundraising for legal aid (which is hard to “picture”), differences in how pro bono is treated across jurisdictions, and the legal and ethical challenges of using AI to support legal work, especially questions of accountability and liability when AI-generated guidance might be wrong. If you’re interested in how Agile, Kanban, and crisis-driven decision-making play out in the real world, across borders, cultures, and regulatory systems, then this episode is a rich case study in making agility practical, humane, and scalable beyond software. Episode Outline 00:00 Introduction & recap of Part 101:05 The language barrier: Ukrainian requests and the need for a “clearing desk”07:58 Designing the help desk workflow10:45 Teaching lawyers a new way of working: pull vs. command-and-control13:12 Culture in action: why France “just worked” and Romania needed more coaching16:00 Simplifying Kanban for legal work18:48 Scaling country by country: early adopters, bar associations, and building local communities22:10 Centralized help desk, decentralized service: funding, hiring Ukrainian students, and managing demand24:55 Business model and funding constraints: the challenge of raising money for legal aid26:10 Legal and AI constraints: pro bono differences, AI-assisted legal opinions, and accountability28:30 Reflections on crisis as a catalyst and the future of global, AI-supported legal aid29:07 ConclusionAbout Ondrej Dvorak Ondřej is the co-founder of Linking Help, a nonprofit that mobilized legal aid for Ukrainian refugees using Scrum and Kanban to coordinate real-time support. It’s a powerful story of how agility can make a real difference in humanitarian crises—far beyond the domain of business. Andre’s work shows how Agile thinking can help even the most traditional sectors become more humane, responsive, and resilient.  You can follow Ondřej on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/ondrej-dvorak-agile/ Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    29 min

  7. 11/18/2025

    Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action Episode #1

    Welcome to a new series of Our Agile Tales, Navigating World Crises: The Agile-Law-AI Alliance in Action! In this series of episodes, we are joined by Ondřej Dvořák, CEO of AgiLawyer and COPS Solutions, and someone proving that agility isn’t limited to software teams or startups. With over 15 years at the crossroads of IT, law and finance, Ondřej has been bringing Agile principles into fields few consider “Agile-friendly.” In this first episode, Ondřej explains how Agile methodologies like Scrum and Kanban can transform even the most traditional industries, including legal services. He details his initiatives, such as the non-profit Linking Help, which utilized Agile frameworks to aid Ukrainian refugees. Ondřej shares how he sparked Agile adoption in the legal sector by addressing common barriers and educating legal professionals on these methods. Additionally, he discusses the practical challenges and solutions implemented in real-world environments, emphasizing the adaptability and resilience that Agile offers, even in chaotic situations such as war. The discussion highlights the importance of Agile education for students and how it can prepare them for dynamic work environments. 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales00:17 Meet Ondřej Dvořák03:14 Applying Agile to the Legal Industry07:18 Challenges and Objections in Legal Agile Transformation14:09 Agile Education for Law Students16:42 Linking Help: Agile in Humanitarian Aid20:44 Building and Scaling Linking Help29:07 Conclusion About Ondrej Dvorak Ondřej is the co-founder of Linking Help, a nonprofit that mobilized legal aid for Ukrainian refugees using Scrum and Kanban to coordinate real-time support. It’s a powerful story of how agility can make a real difference in humanitarian crises—far beyond the domain of business. Andre’s work shows how Agile thinking can help even the most traditional sectors become more humane, responsive, and resilient.  You can follow Ondřej on LinkedIn at  https://www.linkedin.com/in/ondrej-dvorak-agile/ Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    30 min

  8. 11/04/2025

    Agile Bottom Line: The Spreadsheet Stories Episode #6

    In this last episode of our conversation with Nevine White, she discusses her journey in transforming traditional yearly budgeting to adaptive agile financial planning frameworks in major telecom firms. Nevine shares insights into overcoming leadership resistance, empowering teams to challenge the status quo, and the importance of continuous planning and operational agility. She explains how these changes fostered organizational nimbleness, better decision-making, and a culture of innovation. The conversation explores the role of finance in driving change, overcoming bureaucracy, and enhancing organizational agility, offering practical advice on managing fear, facilitating change, and improving communication and engagement within teams. 00:00 Introduction to Agile Tales00:44 Transforming Financial Planning02:12 Challenges of Leadership Changes02:50 Empowering Organizational Change05:18 Finance Team's Reaction to Change08:28 Improving Communication and Processes10:04 Addressing Risk and Fear in Finance12:06 Overcoming Traditional Finance Barriers16:15 Leading Change from Within20:08 Advice for Finance and Non-Finance Teams26:09 Conclusion and Upcoming Episode TeaserNevine's insights highlight that there’s no one-size-fits-all playbook for financial agility. Instead, transformation requires experimentation, iteration, and courage to question the sacred cows of yearly budgets. Her experiences demonstrate how finance—often seen as the last function to change—can become a catalyst for business agility, resilience, and innovation. She is a Senior VP of Finance at Greater Technology Together and a member of the Beyond Budgeting Round Table. Nevine has spent nearly two decades guiding organizations through the shift from rigid annual budgets to adaptive, rolling financial frameworks that enable true business agility. About Nevine White: Beginning her 35-year career in telecom engineering, Nevine went on to lead the FP&A function at TW Telecom for 2 decades. There, she championed powerful changes in financial planning that enabled an agile and effective management structure by eliminating traditional budgets. After the company's sale, Nevine continued this work with Live Future Ready, leveraging her experience to support organizations in their financial transformation efforts across various industries. In 2019, Nevine joined Hargray Communications Group as the VP of Accounting, before taking on building the Finance and Administrative functions for a broadband start-up. She is currently the Senior Vice President of Finance at Greater Technology Together, a leading network and security-as-a-service firm.  Recognized for her experience in finance, agility, and team building, she has been featured at conferences and on podcasts. She enjoys sharing her learnings and experiences with anyone seeking to change and enable their teams meaningfully.  You can follow Nevine on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/nevinewhite/ Podcast music courtesy of www.purple-planet.com Visit us at https://www.ouragiletales.com/about

    28 min
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About

Once upon a time, in an agile land, we navigate corporate levels and political waters to transform the business to be adaptable to this forever changing world. We are excited to share with you our agile journey. Enjoy our tales as we weave our stories together, sometimes with others, on our podcasts.

Information

  • Creator
    Mun-Wai Chung & JF Unson
  • Years Active
    2021 - 2026
  • Episodes
    102
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Our Agile Tales
  • Show Website
    Our Agile Tales