Shaken Not Burned

Felicia Jackson and Giulia Bottaro

Shaken Not Burned is the podcast that helps you make sense of sustainability. We unpack the big debates shaping climate, business, food, and society: debunking myths, clarifying trade-offs, and sharing ideas you can actually use to think, decide, and act in a changing world. 

  1. The AI conversation we should be having

    6D AGO

    The AI conversation we should be having

    AI is no longer just a technology issue, it’s starting to reshape how whole systems operate.  Yet we’re not paying enough attention to that yet: most of the focus on AI is on what it can do, with individuals and organisations alike rushing to implement this new technology. But AI capability is advancing extremely quickly, while the systems around it —  governance and regulation, infrastructure, organisational learning, labour markets, productivity models and even public understanding — are struggling to adapt at the same pace.   And all of this is unfolding inside a world already dealing with climate disruption, geopolitical instability, infrastructure stress, declining institutional trust and widening inequality. In this week’s episode, the final in our AI arc, we explore what happens when AI becomes embedded inside the systems that underpin everyday economic and social life. Co-hosts Felicia Jackson and Giulia Bottaro discuss the implications for infrastructure, institutions, labour, energy, trust and governance — and ask whether societies and economies are prepared for the scale of change we now face. The conversation ranges over stories about AI going rogue, the capability vs governance gap, the physical impacts of something that is still perceived by many as intangible, how AI promises the democratisation of technology while fuelling inequality, and what companies are doing to address these challenges.  For businesses, the questions are becoming increasingly operational: what governance, oversight and accountability systems need to exist once AI becomes embedded inside day-to-day decision-making? It’s worth asking: is your business prepared for what happens once AI starts influencing real operational decisions? The arc on AI is now complete! You can find the rest of the episodes (alongside our entire catalogue) here.  If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

    48 min
  2. If AI can build your business, who's in control? With DeepWisdom

    MAY 7

    If AI can build your business, who's in control? With DeepWisdom

    Generative AI promised to transform how we work, while Agentic AI is beginning to transform how businesses themselves are built.   In this week’s episode of Shaken Not Burned, Felicia Jackson talks to Ethan Ouyang, who is AI ATOMS Spokesperson and responsible for North America Market & Partnerships. ATOMS is the venture building platform developed by DeepWisdom, one of China’s leading artificial intelligence companies. It has been designed as an agentic AI system, helping businesses, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises, integrate AI into their operations.  Unlike traditional generative AI tools, agentic AI systems can take goals, execute tasks, adapt in real time and increasingly function as operational actors inside organisations. From launching products to running marketing campaigns and managing workflows, these systems are beginning to shift AI from a support tool to fundamental business infrastructure. This trend is dramatically raising the stakes in today's AI conversations.  As AI systems move from producing outputs to taking actions, they are not simply improving productivity; they are beginning to reshape entrepreneurship, business formation and operational decision-making itself.  Using DeepWisdom’s platform Atom, AI agents are increasingly able to research markets, design products, launch businesses, run marketing and optimise revenue — pushing AI beyond content generation into execution.  But this rapid acceleration of capabilities raises deeper questions. As AI capability expands, governance, ownership, financial models and operational discipline are still evolving. What happens when businesses can be built faster than the systems designed to regulate them? Where does accountability sit when AI agents act on behalf of founders or organisations? And what risks emerge when speed outpaces governance? This conversation explores:  The shift from generative AI to agentic AI  How AI is transforming business creation and operational execution  Human-in-the-loop decision-making and delegated authority  Ownership, IP and evolving business model challenges  Why governance structures may be lagging behind capability  Sustainability, infrastructure, and the resource demands If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

    38 min
  3. AI is powerful, but why is transformation so hard? With University of Exeter

    APR 30

    AI is powerful, but why is transformation so hard? With University of Exeter

    AI is becoming one of those topics where the scale of the claims can make it surprisingly difficult to work out what is actually happening. We are told it will transform business, unlock extraordinary productivity gains, reshape jobs, and even help solve major global challenges like climate change. At the same time, there are growing concerns about energy demand, governance failures, bias, job losses, and the sheer speed at which these systems are developing. The dominant narrative tends to swing between utopian optimism and existential fear, often without spending enough time on a more practical question: what actually happens when AI is introduced into real organisations, real systems, and real decision-making? This is the focus of this week’s episode, which is the first in our AI series. Rather than debating whether AI is inherently good or bad, Felicia Jackson speaks with Professor Saeema Ahmed-Kristensen, Associate Pro Vice Chancellor for Research and Impact at the University of Exeter and Director of DIGIT Lab, about something much more grounded: why so many digital and AI transformation efforts struggle in practice and what that reveals about the limits of technology alone. One of the most useful distinctions in the conversation was between problems that are well-defined and those that are not. AI is particularly powerful when objectives are clear, data is available, and success can be measured relatively easily. In those contexts - pattern recognition, diagnostics, optimisation - it can offer extraordinary value. But many of the most important challenges organisations face are different. Sustainability, climate strategy, major organisational change, and social systems are messy, politically embedded and filled with trade-offs. They are often what researchers describe as wicked problems: issues where there is no single right answer, where choices create consequences elsewhere, and where uncertainty is part of the challenge itself. That distinction matters because it shifts the conversation. It suggests that AI may be extremely useful in supporting parts of decision-making, but it does not remove the need for human judgment. In fact, in many cases, it may make governance, accountability, and strategic clarity even more important. AI is powerful, but power is not wisdom. Better tools do not automatically create better outcomes. What they do do is make it even more important to understand what kind of organisations, systems and governance structures are capable of using them responsibly. As this new Shaken Not Burned AI arc begins, that feels like the right place to start. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

    40 min
  4. The mining paradox: a clean future built on a dirty industry

    APR 23

    The mining paradox: a clean future built on a dirty industry

    This is the final episode in our mining arc. Rather than revisiting what we’ve already covered, we step back to ask a different question: what does mining actually teach us about how change happens in complex systems? Across the series, one tension kept coming up. The transition to a cleaner economy depends on scaling one of the most environmentally intensive industries on earth. We need more minerals, but we are deeply uncomfortable with how they are extracted. In practice, that tension shows up in whether projects can actually be built. In this episode, we pull those threads together and explore five recurring gaps shaping the sector, from industrial dependence and supply chain constraints, to misplaced faith in quick technological fixes and, ultimately, whether our systems are even set up to deliver the transition we say we want. One insight stands out in particular: trust is not a "soft" issue. In mining, projects that involve communities early and give them a real stake in the outcome are getting approved faster, facing fewer delays and attracting more consistent capital. In other words, legitimacy changes the economics of delivery. Mining makes this dynamic unusually visible because its impacts are immediate and contested - but the lesson for industry is much broader. Whether it’s infrastructure, energy or data centres, more industries are running into the same constraint: formal approval is no longer enough if the people affected don’t believe in what’s being built. This episode is an attempt to make sense of those tensions. Not just in mining, but in how we think about sustainability, trade-offs and what it really takes to deliver change. Key takeaways:  Why the energy transition depends on scaling a contested industry  The five systemic gaps shaping mining today  How trust and community involvement affect speed, risk, and access to capital  Why social licence to operate is becoming a constraint across multiple sectorsIf you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

    37 min
  5. How modern mining must start with trust, with Mokwateh

    APR 16

    How modern mining must start with trust, with Mokwateh

    Welcome to the latest episode in our mining arc! In the previous two episodes, we covered the geopolitics of critical minerals and whether deep sea mining is the innovation we need to meet growing demand for critical clean tech raw materials. This week, we turn to one of the most important lessons emerging from the mining sector: modern projects succeed when trust is built before the digging begins. How mines affect and benefit people, especially those isolated communities that live on resource-rich land, is becoming an essential part of mining operations.  Around half of the world’s untapped energy transition minerals are located on or near land inhabited by Indigenous and peasant communities, according to a 2022 study by the University of the Free State and the University of Queensland.  As demand for these resources grows, developers are learning that access to minerals alone is not enough. Communities expect to be part of the process, and in many jurisdictions they now have the power to delay or stop projects altogether. That means success depends not just on access to land, capital or permits, but on whether communities believe they have been properly heard, respected and included. In this week’s episode, Giulia interviews JP Gladu, founder and principal at Indigenous-led consulting firm Mokwateh, about what it really means to gain the social licence to operate.  JP explains his “involve and support” mantra: involve communities from the earliest stages of project design, not after decisions have already been made, and support them with the resources they need to participate properly.  That might mean providing clear information about the project, funding access to advisers and technical experts, or creating intermediaries who can bridge communication gaps and ensure everyone understands what is being proposed. JP argues that this approach not only produces fairer outcomes, but can reduce opposition, improve project design, and ultimately speed up development by addressing conflict before it begins. Key takeaways: Early community engagement is crucial for project success.Supporting indigenous ownership benefits all stakeholdersWhy partnership improves outcomes for companies and communities alike  What other industries can learn from mining’s evolving approachIf you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

    39 min
  6. Do we need deep sea mining? With Seas At Risk

    APR 9

    Do we need deep sea mining? With Seas At Risk

    Welcome to the second instalment of our mining arc. After covering the geopolitics of critical minerals (check out the episode here), this week we ask a harder question: is deep sea mining a necessary innovation, or a risk we don’t yet understand well enough to take? Deep sea mining means extracting minerals from the bottom of the ocean, at depths of 200 metres and beyond, no easy feat. It’s often framed as the next frontier for securing the metals needed for the energy transition – batteries, renewables, electrification. But that framing sits alongside a more uncomfortable reality: these ecosystems are among the least understood on Earth, and the consequences of disturbing them may be irreversible. This is a question of baseline knowledge: whether we even understand what normal looks like at those depths, and therefore whether impact can be meaningfully assessed at all. Governance remains contested. Negotiations at the International Seabed Authority (ISA) – the body regulating the mineral resources of the seabed beyond national jurisdiction – have been slow and fraught, reflecting deep disagreement over whether the industry should proceed at all, or under what conditions. In this episode, Giulia speaks with Simon Holmström, senior deep sea mining policy officer at Seas At Risk, an association of over 30 environmental NGOs from across Europe. Together, they unpack the environmental risks, the limits of current knowledge,and the evolving policy landscape.  Simon highlights the economic viability of deep sea mining, the need for precautionary measures, and the importance of sustainable practices in the face of growing demand for critical minerals. Their main takeaways are: The deep ocean is one of the least understood ecosystems The economic viability of deep sea mining remains highly speculative Opposition to deep sea mining is growing across civil society and parts of industry The regulatory pathway, and therefore the industry’s future,  is still unresolvedWhat emerges is not a simple case for or against, but a more fundamental question: how should we make decisions about technologies where the downside risks are uncertain, potentially systemic and not easily reversible – especially when they are being justified in the name of solving a different global problem?  In trying to address climate change, if we introduce new environmental risks we don't yet fully understand, how should those trade-offs be evaluated? Who gets to decide what level of risk is acceptable, and for whom? If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

    37 min
  7. The geopolitics of critical minerals with Minefield Consulting

    APR 2

    The geopolitics of critical minerals with Minefield Consulting

    Once a somewhat niche industry, critical minerals are now dominating headlines, influencing geopolitical trends and driving international trade.  These materials are core components of technologies crucial to the energy transition and defence systems, and heightened interest in these areas is fuelling demand. For example, lithium demand jumped by 30% in 2024, while nickel, cobalt, graphite and rare earths all increased by 6-8% – and it is expected to keep climbing.  With the International Energy Agency forecasting demand for these minerals to triple or even quadruple by 2040, the rush for critical minerals will continue shaping international relations, highlighting the need to address major environmental and social implications.  In this week's episode, Giulia interviews Olimpia Pilch, critical minerals consultant at Minefield Consulting, on the complex world of critical minerals, their importance in energy transition and defence, and the geopolitical and environmental challenges involved.  Their wide-ranging conversation covers: The definition of critical mineralsSupply chain vulnerabilities and geopolitical risksChina's role in critical mineral processing and supplyWhat are the potential and limitations of critical mineral recyclingThe environmental and social implications of mineral extractionWhile the Global North has outsourced polluting industries, including mining, for decades, it’s crucial to understand that clean technologies need these primary sources. Amid geopolitical tensions straining supply chains, achieving the energy transition may require a new world order. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

    1h 3m

About

Shaken Not Burned is the podcast that helps you make sense of sustainability. We unpack the big debates shaping climate, business, food, and society: debunking myths, clarifying trade-offs, and sharing ideas you can actually use to think, decide, and act in a changing world.