Shaken Not Burned

Felicia Jackson and Giulia Bottaro

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Shaken Not Burned is the podcast that helps you make sense of sustainability. We unpack the big debates shaping climate, business, food, and society: debunking myths, clarifying trade-offs, and sharing ideas you can actually use to think, decide, and act in a changing world.

3d ago

The price of uncertainty: who pays when risk becomes reality?

Insurance is supposed to protect us from risk. But what happens when the risks themselves are changing? Risk doesn't disappear because we fail to recognise or price it. Decisions that make sense individually — pumping more groundwater during a drought, building another housing development, keeping water prices low — can accumulate until environmental change becomes economic loss. Insurance is one of the places where that loss becomes visible. Insurers pay some of the bill; the rest falls on households, businesses and governments. As risks increase, premiums can rise, terms can tighten and some things can become difficult to insure at all. But the outcome isn't fixed: insurers look not only at the physical event, but at what's exposed to it and how vulnerable it is. We may not be able to stop a flood or an earthquake, but building standards, flood protection, healthier ecosystems and other forms of resilience can change how much damage they cause. That matters because insurance can be more than a way of paying for damage afterwards. It can signal where risk is building, encourage measures that reduce vulnerability and, through insurers' role as investors, help finance some of the resilience that makes future economic activity possible. In the final episode of our insurance arc, Felicia and Giulia bring together conversations we had in the previous three episodes with Robert Johnston of Clark University, Regula Hess of WWF, and Rachel Delhaise of Convex to explore what insurance can tell us about the changing relationship between environmental and economic risk. From water and the insurance protection gap to rising premiums, resilience and the limits of insurability, they ask a deceptively simple question: do we invest in reducing risk now, or pay for the damage later? If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?
Sep 24

How do you make the future insurable? With Convex Insurance

What makes something insurable — and what happens when the risks change?This week on Shaken Not Burned, Felicia talks to Rachel Delhaise, group head of sustainability at Convex Insurance, about how insurers deal with a changing and uncertain climate. As climate risks grow, insurance can become more expensive or harder to find. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the risk has simply become uninsurable. Better climate science and modelling can change how risk is understood and priced; resilience can reduce potential losses; and new financial structures can change how risk and cost are shared. Rachel explains why insurers want to insure, how insurance can act as a signal that underlying risks need to be addressed, and how insurers can use their investment capital to help build resilience, creating what she calls a cycle of insurability. Climate change is altering the hazards we face, but it doesn't determine everything that happens when they hit. Where and how we build, what we protect and where we invest can change the outcome. And underwriting and investment aren't the only ways insurers can contribute. They can also support the science that helps us understand what is changing and what we might do about it. Convex, for example, funds the Convex Seascape Survey, a five-year global research programme investigating the huge but poorly understood store of carbon in seabed sediments — including what happens when those sediments are disturbed and whether protecting them could help keep that carbon locked away. We previously spoke to the programme's lead scientist Callum Roberts about what they're discovering and why it matters. Listen to that conversation here This is the third episode in our arc on the changing economics of risk. In the first, our conversation with Dr Robert Johnston explored how risk can build through decisions that make sense individually but add up to something much more damaging — and why failing to recognise the full cost doesn't make it disappear. Last week, Regula Hess of WWF joined us to look at what happens when that risk becomes loss, the insurance protection gap, and who pays when insurance covers only part of the bill. Next, Felicia and Giulia bring the conversations together to ask what they tell us about where risk comes from, who ultimately pays for it, and what we can do to change the outcome. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?
Sep 17

When insurance isn’t enough: WWF and the insurance protection gap

When disaster strikes, insurance may pay some of the bill. But who pays the rest? This week on Shaken Not Burned, Felicia Jackson talks to Regula Hess, deputy head of WWF Switzerland, about the growing insurance protection gap — and why it matters far beyond the insurance industry. When losses aren't insured, they don't disappear. They fall on households, businesses and governments, affecting everything from mortgages and investment to public finances and the speed at which communities recover. But WWF argues that simply expanding insurance isn't enough. Insurance can spread the cost of disasters; it can't stop the underlying risk from growing. That means reducing risk too — including protecting the forests, wetlands and other natural systems that can reduce damage before it happens. Regula describes insurance as an early warning system: when risks become unaffordable or increasingly difficult to insure, perhaps we should pay attention to what that is telling us. There is, of course, an obvious question. If preventing damage makes so much sense, why aren't we doing more of it? Part of the answer is that prevention is difficult to see. Yet research cited by Regula found that every dollar invested in climate resilience and preparedness can save communities up to $13 in damages, clean-up and wider economic costs. Which is why her description of insurance as an early warning system stayed with us. When insurance becomes unaffordable, or risks become too large or unpredictable to insure, it is telling us something. Not simply that there's a problem with insurance, but that the underlying risk is getting out of hand. Perhaps the real protection gap isn't just between what we lose and what insurance pays — it's between the risks we're creating and what we're doing to prevent them. This episode is the second in our latest Shaken Not Burned arc on the changing economics of risk. Last week, our conversation with Dr Robert Johnston explored how water risk can build through decisions that might make sense individually, but can add up to something much more damaging. And why failing to recognise the full cost of those decisions doesn't make the cost disappear. As part of the series, we will also speak to Rachel Delhaise from Convex about the insurance market itself and what happens when a changing climate makes the past a less reliable guide to the future. Finally, co-hosts Felicia and Giulia will put the conversations together and ask what they tell us about where risk comes from, where the costs eventually end up, and what choices we still have before they do. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?
Sep 10

Water, risk and the economy: when sensible decisions add up to disaster

We rely on water for pretty much everything: growing food, manufacturing goods, building cities and sustaining everyday life. But what happens when the systems we've built around it start to reach their limits? Felicia Jackson talks to economist Dr Robert Johnston, director of the George Perkins Marsh Institute at Clark University, about why he sees today's water challenge as a systems failure — and how individually sensible decisions can combine into what he calls a catastrophic harmony. We explore why the price of water often fails to reflect its real value, how natural and economic systems are connected, and whether better ways of measuring how nature benefits us can lead to better decisions. Where risk is insurable, we can transfer some of the financial cost to insurers. But insurance doesn't create the risks it prices and alone it doesn’t mitigate them. By the time premiums rise, cover becomes unaffordable or insurers pull back, years of decisions may already have increased exposure, depleted water resources or weakened the natural systems that once provided some protection. That's what this conversation with Robert helps us see: how risk is built long before it becomes visible on a financial balance sheet. This episode is the starting point for our latest Shaken Not Burned arc on the changing economics of risk. As part of the series, Regula Hess from WWF joins us to explore the insurance protection gap and who pays when insurance covers only part of a loss. Then Rachel Delhaise from Convex takes us inside the insurance market itself to ask what happens when a changing climate makes the past a less reliable guide to the future. Finally, co-hosts Felicia and Giulia will put the conversations together and ask what they tell us about where risk comes from, where the costs eventually end up, and what choices we still have before they do. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?
Jul 30

Managing disruption: climate risk, trust and the future of resilience

As extreme heat and wildfires sweep across Europe, the gap between recognising climate risk and responding to it is becoming harder to ignore. The good news is that the evidence, expertise and many of the solutions we need already exist. Why, then, is meaningful action still so difficult? That was the question at the centre of this special live edition of Shaken Not Burned, recorded at SOAS during London Climate Action Week. Felicia was joined by Julia Davies (We Have The Power and Patriotic Millionaires UK), Gosbert Chagula MBE (Future Impact Ventures), and Dr Harald Heubaum (Centre for Sustainable Finance, SOAS). Their different perspectives point towards a common problem: coordination. Knowledge, authority, finance, incentives and public action remain fragmented — and they operate within systems shaped by unequal power and competing interests. The conversation explores why governments struggle to use the expertise they already possess; why investment continues to favour short-term returns; how wealth shapes politics and public narratives; and what community ownership, trust and individual agency can make possible. It also exposes a problem hidden inside the growing focus on resilience: people use the same word to describe very different futures. What we choose to protect, what we are prepared to change and who gets to decide will shape how societies respond to the disruption already underway. The solutions may exist. The harder task is aligning the power, money, institutions and public support needed to put them into practice. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?
Jul 23

Infrastructure: built for yesterday, needed for tomorrow

Describing infrastructure as boring was a compliment. A building used to have a relatively straightforward job: keep the weather out and the people inside reasonably comfortable. Roads moved traffic, power systems supplied electricity and factories made things. Once infrastructure had been built, the task was largely to maintain it until it needed replacing. Sure, politicians like to throw themselves behind a flashy, expensive project that raises the profile of their country (example: the HS2 railway in the UK), but what ordinary people need is reliable systems that are ticking along in the background, making everyday life efficient and manageable for the entire population. Still, the reality is that today we need more from our buildings and infrastructure. Buildings are now expected to cut emissions, manage energy demand, protect people from heat and pollution, support health and even help balance the electricity grid. Transport, water and energy networks must withstand conditions they weren’t designed for. Industrial systems are expected to become cleaner, more efficient and more resilient– often all at the same time. Considering that half the buildings that will be standing by 2050 already exist, retrofitting them is the only way to get us to net zero. Meanwhile, cities must manage the relationships among all these systems while remaining liveable, competitive and capable of adapting to a changing climate. In the final episode of our latest arc, hosts Felicia and Giulia explore one of the great challenges of our time: adapting decades-old infrastructure to the requirements of the contemporary era. More often than not, this requires investment in invisible tools, such as sensors and insulation, that most people won’t notice, but will benefit massively from. Rodrigo Fernandes of Bentley Systems introduced us to digital twins and the possibility of understanding cities as interconnected systems. Katie McGinty of Johnson Controls described buildings evolving from inert brick and mortar into active participants in energy, resilience and business performance. Sophie Graham of IFS explored how AI and operational intelligence are changing the way industrial assets are managed. And, it turns out, sensors, insulation, and waste heat recovery aren’t boring after all. We explore what happens when infrastructure stops being passive and starts operating as part of a dynamic system. Can intelligence help ageing assets become more adaptable and resilient? Should we invest less in building new things and more in making existing systems work better? And as buildings and industrial systems begin to sense, learn and optimise, who decides what they should optimise for? The real transformation may not be in the concrete and steel, but in what we enable them to do. This episode explores: The shift from static assets to dynamic, adaptable systemsThe role of operational intelligence and digital twins in infrastructureThe importance of retrofitting and upgrading existing buildingsCircularity and reuse of materials in constructionThe economic and environmental benefits of smarter infrastructureThe systemic interconnectedness of urban systemsThe impact of climate change on infrastructure designThe role of AI and data in optimising asset performanceIf you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?
Jul 16

Sustainability is now operational, with IFS

For years, sustainability has been associated with targets, reporting and disclosure. While those remain essential, they're starting to take a smaller part of the picture. As organisations operate under growing pressure from ageing infrastructure, volatile energy systems, climate disruption and more complex supply chains, sustainability is becoming part of day-to-day operational decision-making. In this week’s episode of Shaken Not Burned, Felicia speaks to Sophie Graham, chief sustainability officer at IFS, about how AI, data and operational intelligence are helping heavy industry move beyond measuring performance to improving it. Rather than treating sustainability as a separate function, many companies’ engineering, operations and sustainability teams are beginning to work together to make industrial systems more efficient, more resilient and more competitive. From what Sophie describes as "blue collar AI" to grid capacity, ageing infrastructure and the growing importance of operational resilience, the real economy is beginning to change. The conversation doesn't shy away from the fact that AI has its own energy, water and infrastructure demands, raising difficult questions about trade-offs and governance. How do organisations judge whether technological progress creates a genuine net benefit? This episode explores: Why operational decision-making is central to sustainabilityWhat "blue collar AI" looks like in practiceHow operational intelligence is changing the way industrial systems respond to disruptionWhy making better use of existing assets may matter as much as building new onesThe changing relationship between sustainability, engineering and technology teamsWhy competitiveness, resilience and sustainability are becoming increasingly difficult to separateThis is the third episode in our latest Shaken Not Burned arc, exploring how the infrastructure that underpins modern life is being redesigned, managed and increasingly operated as an intelligent system. Together with our conversations on digital twins and intelligent buildings, this arc analyses how operational intelligence is reshaping the systems that underpin modern economies. Whether the challenge is designing infrastructure, managing buildings or operating industrial assets, the common thread is that resilience increasingly depends on making better decisions in real time. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?
Jul 9

Rethinking buildings with Johnson Controls

For decades we've largely thought about buildings as fixed assets: we build them, maintain them, and expect them to provide the spaces where everyday life happens. But what if that's only part of the story? The built environment accounts for around 40% of global emissions; much of it was designed for a different climate, and replacing it simply isn't an option. As cities become hotter, energy systems more complex and organisations more dependent on resilient infrastructure, the challenge is no longer just building better buildings – it's helping the ones we already have perform better. In this week's episode, Felicia speaks to Katie McGinty, vice president and chief sustainability and external relations officer at Johnson Controls, about why today's buildings are becoming far more than places we occupy. Increasingly, they are capable of improving resilience, strengthening energy systems, supporting health and productivity, reducing operating costs and creating long-term value for the organisations and communities they serve. The technology to do much of this already exists. The bigger challenge is recognising that buildings are assets capable of creating value. Rather than simply consuming resources, today's buildings can increasingly help manage them, becoming active participants in the wider systems that keep cities and economies functioning. It's a reminder that some of the biggest opportunities in the energy transition may be standing around us. If most of the buildings we'll rely on over the coming decades have already been built, perhaps the next phase of the transition may be about unlocking far more value from the infrastructure we already have. This episode covers: Why buildings are becoming strategic assets rather than simply places we occupy How operational performance is becoming a board-level priority Why resilience, sustainability and business performance are becoming increasingly connected The untapped opportunity in the buildings we already own How digital technologies are changing the way buildings operate Why the next phase of the energy transition may be about improving the performance of existing infrastructure rather than simply building moreIf you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to our newsletter and follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok and Instagram – and why not spread the word with your friends and colleagues?

Shaken Not Burned is the podcast that helps you make sense of sustainability. We unpack the big debates shaping climate, business, food, and society: debunking myths, clarifying trade-offs, and sharing ideas you can actually use to think, decide, and act in a changing world.

Creator

Felicia Jackson and Giulia Bottaro
Years Active

2021 - 2026
Episodes

129
Rating

Clean
Copyright

© 2026 Shaken Not Burned
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Shaken Not Burned