The Leader Learner Podcast

Theresa Destrebecq and Vincent Musolino

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The Leader Learner podcast is for readers and leaders of all kinds. Theresa and Vincent both work as external learning and development providers to global organizations, supporting them in different ways. In this podcast, they explore what they're learning from and with the organizations that they work with, as well as what they are learning through their own leadership practices.

DEC 9

Does Defiance Have a Place at Work?

Send us a text TOPIC: Do you think we should punish defiance in organizations? BIG IDEAS: defiance appreciated in different cultures - in France it shows you're thinking criticallypower dynamics that are at play when talking about defiancedefy and comply isn't a binarymost of us were raised to believe that compliance was good and defiance was baddefiance can be good when it aligns with our valuesconsent is when you have the capacity, knowledgewe comply without having the knowledgefalse defiance - you go along with something that isn't aligned with your valuesconscious compliance -- where we're consciously going with something that's against your values because the risk is too high to complythere is often a long build up to defiancerecognize the moments when I'm consciously complyingnot wanting to be the "complainer" when being harassed - risks too great for careerpeople from marginalized groups have a great risk when defyinglooking to any ally from a more powerful social group to defy for yousaying "no" to people's behavior and setting boundarieshe-peating -- when a man repeats a woman's ideas, and others praise him over herHow should companies deal with defiance? getting curious about the defiance - look at practices and processes that are outdatedlook at gaps between personal values and organizational values - how do we reconcile gaps in valuesAre values stated, but not practiced? people can value the same thing, but how they demonstrate those values can differlook at the behaviors over the stated values of an organizationemotional, psychological, physical, financial risks when it comes to defiance and complianceif there is a values misalignment between you and the organization, you choose a principled exitIs doing values exercises a pointless and dangerous exercise because you will never have alignment?the word defy has a moral connotation in Frenchwhen people take your defiance to a process as a personal attackHow do you defy but still stay loyal to the organization?it's hard to argue with someone's valuesstanding on your moral high ground makes the other person wrong using your values as a launch pad for your defiancebuild around a common needfinding the nuanced way to defy - it doesn't have to be big and boldwhen you're at work, you're in a dependent relationship, so there are inherent risksthe difference between protesting and striking RESOURCES: Defy by Dr. Sunita SahNon Violent Communication by Marshall RosenbergMore yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

34 min
NOV 13

Are Gen Z the Me, Me, Me Generation?

Send us a text QUESTION: Are Gen Z Me, Me, Me? BIG IDEAS: Lots of complaints from a team leader around respect for him and org. His belief that his younger team members are overconfident and think they are superiorDo leaders need to prioritize the organization over themselvesLeaders looking for themselves in future leaders (projection)Generalizations around generations We tend to overestimate when people were born, but what they went through and where are they now in their lives that make a differenceWhat 25-year-old prioritizes the organization over themselves?Gen Z were hit really hard by Covid, and it defines how we see the worldPerception that Gen Z lacks patience and don't want to put in the workDunning Krueger Effect or status quos on timelines?Learning can happen much faster, but they lack experienceWhen we judge others for judging, we are judging tooIs it a lack of patience?Envy and resentment growing -- wish to have the attitude that Gen Z hasTension between the "new way" and the "old way"COVID shifted priorities for people, yet companies want to go back to the way things were (working in the office being a top priority)What does it mean to "go back to normal"?"That's the way we've always done it," can get in the way of growthAdapt rather than fight itEquity of treatment across generations and work preferencesIt's not about working 50% versus, it's about working 50% or leaving the companyWe only need to love 20% of our work to find meaning in all of our workOnly 14% of people are engaged -- how is that measured? Are we asking too much of people for their work?How much is the perception of engagement valid across generations?How much show off and show me rose due to the self facing camera?Over praising leading to overconfidenceInstead of keeping them down, give them the opportunity to safely failSeeing the gray area between people's truthsRESOURCES MENTIONED: Podcast || Social Science Bites - Episode on Generational MythsBook || Love + Work by Marcus BuckinghamBook || Think Again by Adam GrantMore yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

31 min
OCT 30

The Leadership Garden

Send us a text TOPIC : If leadership training is dead, how do companies still develope leaders? Big Ideas: Learning experiences can happen without trainingLearning that happens in community can have a bigger impactLearning happens in a spiral -- you have to come back to it again and in different ways. Learning happens across multiple axis across time, not linearlyLeadership learning can happen below the surface before people can see itCreating a non-threatening environment -- psychological safetyPut something in the community basketThere is no lever for learning - you can just pull and it emergesLeadership as an emergent property, rather than something that can be directly developedHow does the hierarchical structure of training impeding leadership training?Focus on the process of learning, rather than the delivering of content and information. Practice versus training? "Knowledge isn't wisdom. Wisdom in knowledge in action."Give people a space to activate the information. Everyone sparks at different times. Creating self-fulfilling frameworks that can be peer generated after wardsSome models can be reciprocated, but the experience may not be the sameSmall moments of connected learning keeps the learning alive - the more exposure to the ideas, the more your Reticular Activation System is activatedHow do we assess whether a learning experience is effective?If leadership training is so great, why do we still have the same number of problems we have?Does success always mean rising in an organization? If everyone can be a leader, how do I choose the next leader?Managing and leading aren't the same skill set. Promoting people who aren't good at their jobs, but are still potential leaders.Sometimes we are short-sighted about leadership developmentGarden metaphor -- plant some seeds, nurture, see what grows, adapt based on what you see More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

35 min
OCT 15

Leadership Isn't a Checkbox

Send us a text TOPIC : Is leadership training dead? BIG IDEAS: creating a learning experience without training/teaching peopletraining gives people a chance to not take responsibility - they are following the trainingpeople are happy after a training, but change long term is limitedattempt to get manager and HR involved in training, but it didn't workclients/customers want training, but don't take the time to reflect on what they needtime is a barrier to implementation of oversight of trainingPeter Principle -- people rise to the level of their competencegreat individual contributors don't always make great leadersleadership is nuanced and doesn't follow a checklisttraining doesn't personalize the learning to where/who they areprovide the spark, get people more emotionally involved in the changeconnecting the theory, to the emotions, to create the behavior changeleadership is the state of being a leader, not a skillbringing the manager in was an attempt to reinforce the trainingmaking leadership experiences voluntary versus obligatoryinternally motivated learning is more impactful letting go of agendas and objectives -- some structure, but give space for what arises from the participantsleadership can't be taught, but it can be developedhumans and leadership are too complex to be taughtleadership has an emotional componentgetting stuck in what you're supposed to do, rather than reading the "room" and adapting to the situation in front of youletting go of the idea of needing "tools" as a leaderinternal motivation of being a leader BOOKS MENTIONED: The Power of Moment, Chip and Dan HeathMore yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

35 min
FEB 13

S04E09- Shake the Tree with Valentina Tacchino

Send us a text 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office 📚 GUEST READER : Valentina Tacchino 💬 CONVERSATION HIGHLIGHTS: the book is very portable -- you can dip in and outhow girls/women are educated to be "nice" and certain behavior were educated with not making the most for them in an office environmentwhen being too "nice" can prevent us from standing up for ourselves or voicing our opinionsstudent behaviors don't work in an office environmentthe cultural conventions and unwritten rules in within a work environmentnot wanting to confirm and "erase" yourselfthe book not asking women to be like men, but does invite you to reflect on your behaviors in relation to what men do or don't domake any book you read yours - don't follow it to the letterretaining your own personality and consciousness into reading and applying the bookask yourself what type of manager and leader you want to beunwritten rules come with any organization or community - hours in the office, dress codes, etc.many companies spell out the culture now, but at the time it wasn't like thatwearing clothes that match your personality along with the unwritten rules of the industrysometimes you need to compromise on some things to make it easier for everyonementoring people without telling people what to dohaving to change how I spoke to fit into the culture -- how you sound, how you project, when to participate, managing up, etc.not saying yes just because someone is your bossstanding in your strength and in your valueslife and death moments in your career taking time and energy to find the way when saying "no" can nourish a relationship, rather than end itno is a powerful word in many contextsgetting curious about someone's "no" personal gratification is what will keep us goingshaking the tree, but not uprooting the tree ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Valentina Tacchino leads a team focused on wealth management for international clients at LGT Wealth Management. She looks after UK resident, not living in the UK and clients moving to the UK. https://www.linkedin.com/in/valentina-tacchino-488b2a26/ More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

38 min
JAN 9

S04E08 Incongruence and The Smush (with Lucy Chambers)

Send us a text 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : Unbound by Kasia Urbaniak 📚 GUEST READER : Lucy Chambers 💬 CONVERSATION HIGHLIGHTS: when managing 2 opposing views together ( a Taoist Nun and a Dominatrix)power is connected to our attention and where we direct itDominant Position - attention outSubmissive Position - attention inLink to coaching and coaches not setting the agendapower is about influence and nothing elseboth types of attention have value"The SMUSH" - when we flip flop between the two states of attention, or we have a foot in each stateIncongruence occurs when our words don't match our energy - when we soften our words based on society's expectations on usPeople can smell intention - our animal body speaks more than we know/believeManipulation - women get seen as this more often than men. Women fall into this SMUSH more often than men.Learning to ask from a place of grounded legitimacy. Socialized that asking correlates with weaknessWe can't have an impact and play big if we aren't willing to ask for what we want/need"I am not having a conversation with _____________ about ___________."Asking exposes our edges.Connecting our requests to our universal human needs.Asking creates an opportunity for others and gives them a new role in their lifeBe as specific as you can when making requests. The half ask is the SMUSH. Wanting people to read our minds doesn't work. We have a poor vocabulary for how we feel.Ideas need to be nourished.Allowing our asks to delight other people as they fulfill them. When our asks create a WIN-WIN. Asking takes vulnerabilityThe toxic side of the independent woman - we don't have to do it all alone, and we are biologically leaned to connect with others.We don't create power siting alone in a room, but through connecting with others.Spend time taking things in and putting things out in the world. 📚 OTHER BOOKS/RESOURCES MENTIONED: Imogen Roy Playing Big by Tara MohrThe Art of Asking by Amanda PalmerVideo Series : The Basics of Non-Violent Communication with Marshall Rosenberg Unreasonable Hospitality by Will GuidaraHow to Start a Mistress Group Workbook ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Lucy Chambers is an anti-overwhelm coach and facilitator working on breaking old, broken patterns to create space for new great things. You can find and follow her at: https://facilitationmindset.substack.com/ https://www.facilitationmindset.com/ More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

46 min
12/05/2024

S04E07 Live, Love, Learn and Leave a Legacy (with Maha Bali)

Send us a text 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : First Things First by Stephen R. Covey 📚 GUEST READER : Maha Bali 💬 CONVERATION HIGHLIGHTS: it's a life management book and how to prioritizeimagining the end of your life and what people will say about youLive, Love, Learn and Leave a Legacyvisualization where you attend your own funeralwhen what is written on paper and what you do in real time does not matchDo our personal goals interfere with our institution's goals?Switch careers in order to focus on learning and leaving a legacyYou don't need to be balanced in all areas at all times - you might focus more on love in some phases of your life and then lean into learning and legacy in other phaseswhen strong emotional labor in our work affects the rest of our lifewhen we pursue a legacy that isn't ourseducation systems all have their issueswhen our pain points direct our passions and desire to "fix" things later in liferestart works for more than computers and electronicsleaning into what brings you joy opportunity gaps can cause us to choose a certain path, even if it doesn't fit for uswhen your value as a person is not remunerated financially within societyreading books by only one demographic can be limitingreading things from different cultures takes additional reflectioninteracting with people from different cultures helps us understand other identitieswhen you read a book by someone who lived it versus reading a book by someone who has observed the same experiencewhen our looks and names get in the way of full assimilation in a countryempathy to others oppression as an outside observernot forcing people into our language dynamicssharing learning with others and giving it freelyshare questions, not just the answersworry about giving the wrong knowledge 📚 OTHER BOOKS/RESOURCES MENTIONED: The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen R. CoveyMindvalley - Speak and Inspire CourseLisa NicholsBelong - Radha AgrawalEmergent Strategy - adrienne marree brownImagination : A Manifesto - Ruha BenjaminThe Art of Gathering - Priya ParkerThe Message by Ta-Nehisi Coates ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Maha Bali is Professor of Practice at the Center for Learning and Teaching at the American University in Cairo. She has a PhD in Education from the University of Sheffield, UK. She is co-founder of virtuallyconnecting.org (a grassroots movement that challenges academic gatekeeping at conferences) and co-facilitator of Equity Unbound (an equity-focused, open, connected intercultural learning curriculum, which has also branched into academic community activities Continuity with Care,Socially Just Academia, a collaboration with OneHE: Community-building Resources and MYFest, an innovative 3-month professional learning journey. She writes and speaks frequently about social justice, critical pedagogy, and open and online education. She blogs regularly at https://blog.mahabali.me and tweets @bali_maha. For Maha’s list of peer-reviewed publications, see here. For Maha’s list of keynotes and invited talks, More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

43 min
11/21/2024

S04E06 Turn a Sacred Wound Into a Sacred Scar

Send us a text 💡 SPOTLIGHTED BOOK : Wild Mind by Bill Plotkin 📚 GUEST READER : Andrei Stoicescu 💬 CONVERATION HIGHLIGHTS: growing from a place of unknowingnot knowing where/when you will learn - it can happen at any timewe often forget that we are a part of natureeco-psychology lenswe live in an ecosystem and don't recognize our interdependenceeco-centric -- start from the place of recognizing the nature and niche around usyou can work with metaphor without understanding ityou can live beyond knowledge and understandingyou don't know what "cold" is before you experience itwe communicate through our energy, not just our wordsFour facets of the self - Interpersonal View of the SelfFeeling ThingsUsing your SensesUsing our IntellectUsing our ImaginationWhat happens if these facets are mature/immature? Many of us are stuck in perpetual adolescenceWe often develop our facets based on what the world needs of us at the timeKnowing your mature facet, and look toward the other facets to help you growMiscommunication can occur when our strong facets collide with other facetsWhat happens on your team when it's dominated by certain archetypes/facets? Dysfunction on teams occurs when we don't understand ourselves more deeply, and those of our colleaguesMeet yourself from the different facets and treat yourself with compassionShifting our strategies that worked in childhood that don't work as adultsImprove your leadership not through tactical ways, but through self-explorationBeginner's mind and humility in leadershipLook for the patterns in your lifeSeeing the gift in the other facets of of selfAll of us have a "wounded self" - can we have compassion for our self and that of othersTurn a sacred wound into a sacred scarBreak the promises you made to yourself when you were youngWhen we choose not to do the work, we pay in non-financial ways, so why not pay someone to help you do the work. 📚 OTHER BOOKS MENTIONED: Soul Craft, also by Bill Plotkin ℹ GUEST BIO AND LINKS: Born in an industrial town of a soon to come out of communism Romania, I fell in love with books and stories in primary school. I have loved music and singing for as long as I can remember and I dabbled with acting until I went to university. I left Architecture after 4 years of studies (out of 6) and quit working in Architecture and Design (after 5 years), started doing odd jobs until, at 25, I ended up in a (then) more than 100.000 employee corporation where I received an Employee of the Year award (in my service center) after my first year for opening a new business line. I joined a (then) small ESG Research provider as an Engineer and worked my way up to Director of Engineering in 4 years. Even before the pandemic came I felt that I need a shift in how I approach things in life so I quit climbing the corporate ladder and started studying Philosophy and Psychology. I hold the same position with my employer and do my best to be there with my team, colleagues and friends. I continued to make music throughout my life and am now working to create my own music-oriented company that will hopefully launch next year. LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrei-stoicescu/ More yummy content on leaderlearner.fm

47 min

The Leader Learner podcast is for readers and leaders of all kinds. Theresa and Vincent both work as external learning and development providers to global organizations, supporting them in different ways. In this podcast, they explore what they're learning from and with the organizations that they work with, as well as what they are learning through their own leadership practices.

Creator

Theresa Destrebecq and Vincent Musolino
Years Active

2022 - 2025
Episodes

67
Rating

Clean
Copyright

© 2025 The Leader Learner Podcast
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The Leader Learner Podcast