Pearls On, Gloves Off: The Legal Innovation Podcast

Mary O'Carroll
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Join Mary O'Carroll as she sits down with General Counsel, Chief Legal Officers, and industry pioneers to tackle the debates reshaping legal services and technology.

  1. 10H AGO

    #88 - Big Law: Record Profits… For Now

    In this episode of Pearls On, Gloves Off, Mary sits down with Mike Abbott, Head of the Thomson Reuters Institute, to unpack the paradox: how can firms be thriving on paper while the ground shifts beneath them? Clients are tightening spend. Work is moving down-market and in-house. AI adoption is accelerating, especially on the client side, yet most of the industry still can't measure ROI beyond "time saved." And the biggest unresolved question hangs over everything: when tech makes legal work faster, who gets the benefit? Mike brings the data, the patterns, and the historical context, plus a sobering signal: late 2025 showed a sharp dip in M&A alongside a rise in countercyclical practices. If you're trying to understand what's actually coming in 2026, this is your listen. In this episode: Record profits… and warning lights: Why a "great year" can still mask real risk (and why it feels eerily familiar). The work is moving: Not just in-house, down-market into the second hundred and mid-size firms. AI as an efficiency engine (for now): Adoption is surging, but ROI tracking is still immature across the ecosystem. The billing model stalemate: If ~90% of billing is still hourly (with "creative" hourly flavors), what happens when AI collapses time-to-deliver? Value gap reality check: The uncomfortable stat: one in four clients say they've never experienced a law firm that delivers value - and what "value" actually means to clients. Legal ops as the bridge: Why the legal ops function is more critical than ever, and why it's unlikely to be a passing trend. Join Mary's Substack Community Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

    50 min

  2. FEB 3

    #87 - Updates & Hot Takes with Alex Su

    Mary O'Carroll kicks off a new era of Pearls On, Gloves Off - independent, sponsor-curious, and still laser-focused on what's actually changing in legal. Her first guest in this new chapter is the person many listeners will recognize instantly: Alex Su. Former litigator, ex-legal tech sales leader, early "legal influencer," and now Chief Revenue Officer at Latitude. This episode is a blunt conversation about the gap between buying innovation and actually using it. Mary and Alex dig into why legal excellence by itself doesn't deliver business value, why so much AI adoption is still "innovation theater," and why integration (not hype) is the make or break factor for legal tech, legal services, and legal careers. In this episode The core thesis: Legal excellence alone doesn't cut it. If a lawyer, ALSP, or AI tool isn't embedded in the workflows, it won't stick. AI reality check: 2025 was the year of "buying"; 2026 will be about renewals, retention, and ROI. CLM is back: "Agents will replace workflows" didn't land (yet). Real SaaS infrastructure still matters, and AI works best layered into it. Disaggregation/right-sourcing is accelerating: Big Law moves upmarket, expanding room for ALSPs, flexible talent, and tech-enabled delivery. The Innovator's Dilemma for firms: Dropping "lower-value" work can erode stickiness, and invite new providers to move up the chain. Training is the looming issue: As work shifts and automates, the profession has to rethink where reps and apprenticeship come from. For those thinking seriously about legal transformation, technology, and where the industry is headed, this conversation lays out what actually matters next. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

    44 min

  3. JAN 20

    #86 - Mary Talks to her Digital Twin

    Mary O'Carroll isn't experimenting for fun, she's trying to solve one of legal's biggest scaling problems: the fact that the profession's best judgment and hard-earned experience still lives in people's heads, buried in laptops, or scattered across years of emails. So in this episode of Pearls On Gloves Off, Mary runs a real test: she trains a digital twin on essentially all of her content (podcasts, talks, blogs, speeches), and then sits down for a conversation with "Digital Mary" to find out whether a digital mentor can actually deliver useful guidance. In this episode: Digital Mentors, Tested: Why Mary built a digital twin trained on decades of her content - and whether AI can realistically scale mentorship and judgment in legal. Legal Ops, Rewritten: How the function has evolved from managing outside counsel spend to driving technology, data, and GenAI-enabled transformation. The Lawyer Skillset Is Shifting: Why trust, judgment, and relationship-building matter more than ever, even as training models struggle to keep up. Tech Hype vs. Real Impact: How to think "problem first, tool second," and why foundational legal tech still delivers massive value alongside AI. Pressure on the Billable Hour: What AI exposes about law firm economics, pricing, and the growing need for right sourcing and true partnership. If you're thinking about training, legal ops scale, AI disruption, or the future of law firm economics, this episode is a rare, real-time look at how the profession might start "bottling" expertise, and what it will take to do it well. Follow Mary on LinkedIn  Rate and review on Apple Podcasts Explore the Forces of Law collection and download the report to get the insights you need to future-proof your business strategy: https://bit.ly/45Tvpfd

    29 min

  4. JAN 6

    #85 - Edward Jones CLO Is Moneyball-ing Legal Risk

    Keir Gumbs, Chief Legal Officer at Edward Jones, isn't here to maintain the status quo. He joined the largest U.S. financial services firm not to run legal as usual - but to lead a transformation. In this episode, Keir and Mary talk candidly about what it takes to build a modern legal function inside a legacy institution - and why the traditional law firm model may not survive the decade. Keir brings a rare 360° view of the legal world, with leadership roles at Uber, Broadridge, Covington, and the SEC. Now, he's putting that experience to work reshaping how legal, compliance, and risk teams partner with the business and what true enablement looks like. In this episode: Transformation Playbook: Why Keir spent his first year meeting with 500+ team members - and what it taught him about culture and leadership. Shared Services, Shared Wins: How he's connecting legal, compliance, and risk through a shared services model that's breaking down silos and boosting speed. Enable First, Protect Second: Keir's core legal philosophy - and how it's changing how his team shows up across the organization. Law Firm Economics, Under Fire: Keir sounds the alarm on unsustainable rate hikes and why smaller, specialized firms are increasingly winning the work. Outcome Over Hours: What he's looking for in alternative fee models, and the reality check law firms need to hear. If you're thinking about legal transformation, technology, or the future of firm partnerships, this conversation is a blueprint for what's next. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

    44 min

  5. 12/23/2025

    #84 - Resetting the Relationship with Outside Counsel

    Mary O'Carroll welcomes Stephanie Hamon (Global Head of Legal External Engagement, HSBC) to explore how in‑house legal teams are rethinking their relationships with law firms, vendors, and the broader legal ecosystem. With experience spanning Barclays, Norton Rose Fulbright, and now HSBC, Stephanie brings a uniquely global and pragmatic perspective to legal transformation - from process redesign to AI's impact on delivery models. In this episode: The new panel model: Stephanie explains how HSBC is moving beyond transactional vendor management toward deeper, collaborative partnerships with firms and providers. Legal ops as a mindset: It's not just a function. Stephanie shares why ops is about how you think, not just who you hire. People, process, then tech: Before chasing the next tool, Stephanie urges legal teams to address foundational issues in process and data. Why consulting helps (at first): For legal departments overwhelmed by where to start, Stephanie outlines how consultants can build clarity and roadmaps before you hire in‑house. The death of the billable hour?: As AI and internal tooling reshape what gets sent outside, pricing models need to shift from time to value. Joint talent development: Stephanie makes a strong case for collaborative training between firms, clients, and academia to fix the broken legal talent pipeline. Three reasons we go external: Capacity, capability, and strategic insurance - and why each is evolving. Law firms under pressure: How client-side innovation is forcing firms to rethink delivery, pricing, and partnership structures. If you've been trying to future‑proof your outside counsel strategy - or are wondering how AI is reshaping legal budgets, this conversation is a clear-eyed, practical guide to what's next. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

    44 min

  6. 12/09/2025

    #83 - Recruiting Gen Z Lawyers in a Broken System

    Legal recruiters and podcast hosts Genevieve Riccardelli and Jennifer Soltau join Mary to unpack how law-firm hiring is being turned on its head. They run entry-level recruiting at Goodwin and see the shift happening in real time. Their perspective on what students want, what firms are doing, and where this all goes next is honest, practical and very needed. In this episode: OCI is losing its structure. What used to be a predictable, school-run process has fractured. Firms are now interviewing students before grades, before exams and sometimes before classes even begin. Recruiting years into the future. Firms are locking in talent 2 or 3 years ahead without knowing what their practices or clients will actually need. That mismatch shows up later in churn, confusion and a lot of second guessing. The in-house pull. More students want in-house careers and some companies are now hiring straight out of law school. The long-standing assumption that firms are the only training ground is shifting. A new type of candidate. Students with previous careers in biotech, business or tech are clearer about their goals and often move through the process faster. Their presence is reshaping expectations on both sides. What firms need to rethink. Copying whatever another firm does will not cut it anymore. The future belongs to firms that listen, experiment and build programs that match what talent actually wants. If you want to understand how law-firm recruiting broke and what the next generation of lawyers is really looking for, this conversation is worth your time. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

    40 min

  7. 11/25/2025

    #82 - Deloitte Prices for Outcomes. Law Firms Will Too.

    Mary O'Carroll welcomes Ben Campbell (General Counsel, Deloitte) to unpack how law firms can—and must—learn from consulting and advisory firms. With a career that spans the DOJ, BigLaw, and now a top in‑house role, Ben offers a unique vantage on how governance, compensation, pricing and talent models are evolving. In this episode: Outcome‑based billing: Ben walks through how outcome‑based (versus hourly) billing shifts incentives, aligns with the client, and drives efficiency. Governance at scale: At Deloitte, the partnership model combines with a layered board/CEO structure—getting buy‑in from hundreds of partners and deploying resources across businesses. Talent & career flexibility: Moving beyond "lockstep" life‑path models, Ben discusses how allowing flexible progression and acknowledging different career goals helps retain and grow talent. AI & disruption: The "pyramid" leverage model (many junior + a few senior) is under pressure. Routine tasks will be automated; strategic judgment will remain the premium play. What law firms can borrow now: From shared back‑offices and staffing flexibility to outcome‑pricing and more dynamic governance—Ben makes the case for law firms to evolve before "behind" becomes the new norm. If you're wondering how the next chapter of legal and professional services might look, this conversation is a must‑listen—smart, candid and forward‑leaning. Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

    49 min

  8. 11/11/2025

    #81 - The New Structure of AI Powered Law Firms

    When many law‑ and consulting‑firms ask "Which AI tool do we buy?" they're missing the bigger shift: the very business model is changing. In this episode, Mary sits down with David Duncan and Tyler Anderson—two long‑time service‑firm innovators—to explore how AI is not just a new tool, but a structural force reshaping professional services: staffing models, pricing, talent, and even the nature of expertise. In this episode: The pyramid unravels: We revisit the traditional "analyst → manager → partner" model and why AI is eroding the base layers. From pyramid to obelisk: David and Tyler explain why the future staffing architecture looks more like a narrow obelisk than a wide pyramid. AI‑native vs. retrofit: Are you building your firm around AI or simply bolting AI on? The difference is profound. Pricing and incentives under pressure: If AI reduces hours and increases speed, how do firms preserve value and avoid racing toward the billable‑hour death spiral? Talent, apprenticeship & judgement: With junior work being automated, how will younger professionals develop deep judgment? What happens to the craft of the profession? Incumbents vs. attackers: Why nimble AI‑first boutiques may have the attacker's advantage, and what legacy firms must do to remain relevant. Opportunity vs. risk mindset: David closes with a powerful framing—see AI not as a threat to be managed but as an opportunity to be seized. If you're in legal or professional services and wrestling with how AI fits into your firm's model—not just your tech stack—this is a must‑listen. Explore Goodwin's Strategies for Winning Deals series to gain a competitive edge in closing  your next deal: https://bit.ly/4oCDVGn Follow Mary on LinkedIn Rate and review on Apple Podcasts

    41 min
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Join Mary O'Carroll as she sits down with General Counsel, Chief Legal Officers, and industry pioneers to tackle the debates reshaping legal services and technology.

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