Messy Social Work

Rich and Tim
  • 5.0 (1)
  • Social Sciences
  • Updated Weekly

Messy Social Work is a podcast for social workers, leaders, students and anyone interested in helping people navigate life's toughest challenges. Hosted by Rich Devine and Tim Fisher, the podcast explores child protection, systemic practice, relationships, leadership, trauma, family support and the realities of frontline social work. Each week, we speak with leading thinkers, practitioners, researchers and people with lived experience to explore what helps, what harms and what social work can learn from both success and failure. Expect honest conversations, practical ideas, challenging questions and occasional disagreement, all grounded in a belief that meaningful change happens through relationships. Because social work isn't neat. It's messy.

  1. 1d ago

    Rich and Tim on Family Group Decision Making: Power, participation and family leadership

    In this episode, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore the first five themes of Family Group Decision Making (FGDM), unpacking the philosophy, values and practice wisdom behind one of the most significant relational approaches in children's and family services today. Together, they discuss the Māori origins of Family Group Conferencing in Aotearoa New Zealand and how FGDM has evolved into a strengths-based, family-led approach that places decision-making power closer to children, families and communities. The conversation explores: The foundations of FGDM and the shift from doing things to or for families towards doing things with them. How Family Group Decision Making can support people across the life course, from birth planning and early years support to adolescence, adulthood and later life. The importance of the "window of intervention" and why timing matters when creating opportunities for families to lead their own planning and decision-making. The art and craft of facilitation, including preparation, advocacy, private family time, powerful questioning and the role of the coordinator in creating the conditions for meaningful participation. A continuum of conversational approaches, from formal Family Group Conferences through to mediation, family network meetings and other family-led spaces for dialogue, planning and repair. Throughout the episode, Richard and Tim reflect on participatory democracy, relational practice, family power, professional humility and what becomes possible when we trust families and communities to mobilise their own strengths, networks and solutions. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, manager, coordinator, therapist or community practitioner, this episode offers rich insights into how relational ways of working can create lasting change through conversation, connection and collective responsibility.

  2. Aug 19

    Peter Block: relationships, resistance and the relevance of 'Flawless Consulting'

    Flawless Consulting by Peter Block has sold more than a million copies and is widely regarded as one of the most influential books ever written about consulting. But what can a business classic teach social workers, practice leads, and change agents working in complex public services? In this episode, Rich and Tim put Peter Block's ideas to the test through two live consulting dilemmas drawn from their own work. Rich explores the challenge of leading a systemic practice transformation from within an organisation, where success depends less on training and more on culture change, relationships, and influencing without authority. Tim brings the perspective of an external consultant, working with local authorities to embed Family Group Decision-Making and create lasting change beyond the life of a contract. Together, they explore some of Peter's most enduring ideas: authentic contracting, resistance as valuable information, shared responsibility, and the difference between compliance and genuine commitment. Along the way, Peter challenges assumptions about expertise, accountability, and what it really takes to help organisations change. Whether you're an internal practice lead, an external consultant, a social work manager, or anyone trying to influence change without formal authority, this conversation offers practical wisdom from a thinker whose work remains as relevant today as when Flawless Consulting was first published. Topics include: Contracting for real accountabilityLeading change without direct authorityWorking with resistance rather than against itInternal versus external consultingAvoiding the "expert" trapMoving from compliance to commitmentEmbedding systemic practice and Family Group Decision-MakingA conversation about consulting, culture change, and why one of the world's best-selling consulting books still has so much to say about social work.

  3. Jul 31

    Lee Crouch, a parent with lived experience of reunification: what social workers need to know

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  4. Jul 24

    Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten (Part 2)

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  5. Jul 17

    Practice lessons from the death of Victoria Marten

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  6. Jul 13

    Connecting Research: Why social workers turn a blind eye and avoid mental pain in child protection

    Why do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities. Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available. The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them. A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear.

  7. Jul 7

    Rich and Tim on uncertainty, relationships and 14 lessons from practice

    In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull. Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about. Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics. This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers.

  8. Jun 26

    Ex-undercover police officer on why the war on drugs is failing

    In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better. Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched. We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD. Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice. This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families. Contact Neil here:  https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woods https://www.neilwoods.net/ His book is available online and on audible

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About

Messy Social Work is a podcast for social workers, leaders, students and anyone interested in helping people navigate life's toughest challenges. Hosted by Rich Devine and Tim Fisher, the podcast explores child protection, systemic practice, relationships, leadership, trauma, family support and the realities of frontline social work. Each week, we speak with leading thinkers, practitioners, researchers and people with lived experience to explore what helps, what harms and what social work can learn from both success and failure. Expect honest conversations, practical ideas, challenging questions and occasional disagreement, all grounded in a belief that meaningful change happens through relationships. Because social work isn't neat. It's messy.

Information

  • Creator
    Rich and Tim
  • Years Active
    2022 - 2026
  • Episodes
    118
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Messy Social Work
  • Show Website
    Messy Social Work