Messy Social Work

Rich and Tim
  • 5.0 (1)
  • Social Sciences
  • Weekly

Messy Social Work is a podcast for social workers, leaders, students and anyone interested in helping people navigate life's toughest challenges. Hosted by Rich Devine and Tim Fisher, the podcast explores child protection, systemic practice, relationships, leadership, trauma, family support and the realities of frontline social work. Each week, we speak with leading thinkers, practitioners, researchers and people with lived experience to explore what helps, what harms and what social work can learn from both success and failure. Expect honest conversations, practical ideas, challenging questions and occasional disagreement, all grounded in a belief that meaningful change happens through relationships. Because social work isn't neat. It's messy.

  1. Oct 23

    A conversation about grief, belonging, and discovering who you are beyond caring for everyone else

    What happens when the strategies that helped us survive become the very things that stop us from being seen? In this deeply moving conversation, Sharon shares her extraordinary life story: the disappearance of her mother when she was a child, growing up amid uncertainty and loss, caring for a brother she fiercely loved, navigating addiction within her family, and facing grief that defies easy words. Together, we explore survival, identity, belonging, and the cost of always being the one who holds everything together. Sharon reflects on the "persona" she created to cope, the painful questions left unanswered, and what it means to begin discovering who you are when your life has been spent caring for everyone else. This is a conversation about loss, resilience, love, and learning that you deserve the same compassion you offer to others.

  2. Oct 16

    What social workers need to know about working with fathers

    In this episode of Messy Social Work, Tim and Rich begin with a conversation about shame, connection, and the ways we "make our own social worlds". Reflecting on Margaret Wheatley's work, they explore how small acts of openness can shape relationships, meetings, and everyday interactions. They are then joined by Jordel Bennett, fatherhood advocate, trainer, family group decision-making facilitator and lived-experience practitioner. Drawing on his experience growing up in London as a Black Caribbean man, becoming a young father, studying law, and supporting fathers navigating child protection and family court processes, Jordel offers a powerful perspective on how fathers experience helping systems. Together they discuss: Why fathers are often treated as an "add-on" rather than a core part of family lifeTrust, risk and why some fathers find it difficult to engage with professionalsThe difference between being child-focused and case-focusedHow social workers can build stronger relationships with fathers and paternal familiesThe role of family networks, identity and belonging in children's livesThe importance of curiosity, humanity and inclusive practiceThe episode concludes with a reading from Rainer Maria Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet, reflecting on fear, sadness and the possibility that what troubles us most may be asking for understanding rather than avoidance. "Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love." A thoughtful conversation about fathers, relationships, participation, and what more inclusive social work might look like.

  3. Oct 13

    Dr Beverly Barnett-Jones MBE on power, community and the purpose of social work

    What is social work really for? In this special episode, Rich and Tim sit down with Dr Beverly Barnett-Jones MBE, one of the most influential voices in British social work, for a conversation that spans personal history, political activism, healing, community, and the future of the profession. Beverly reflects on how her experiences as a child growing up in a kinship arrangement, her identity as a Black British woman of Windrush heritage, and decades of frontline and leadership experience shaped her approach as a social worker, advocate, and what she describes as a "caring disruptor." Together, the conversation explores the work of social work pioneer Bertha Capen Reynolds, whose writing on power, poverty, dignity, and community still feels startlingly relevant today. They discuss social work's relationship with activism, the dangers of dependency narratives, the importance of walking alongside families, and whether social workers should see themselves as witnesses, healers, or agents of social change. Along the way, Beverly speaks candidly about therapy, faith, forgiveness, racial inequality, professional power, and her growing conviction that communities themselves must play a greater role in shaping the systems that affect their children and families. This is a rich, thoughtful conversation about social work's past, present and future, and a reminder that some of the most important work happens not in offices or procedures, but at the crossroads of ordinary life. Topics include: Bertha Capen Reynolds and Social Work and Social LivingSocial work as activism and advocacyRace, identity and the care systemHealing, therapy, faith and forgivenessPower, dependency and professional authorityCo-production and community leadershipWhat it means to truly walk alongside families“You can't be a witness unless you do something.” – Beverly Barnett-Jones

  4. Oct 4

    Episode 100: One hundred episodes of Messy Social Work

    In this special 100th episode of The Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich Devine and Tim Fisher hit pause to reflect on the journey so far. Armed with a list of 100 AI-generated questions inspired by their previous episodes, they take each other on a whistle-stop tour through five years of conversations, debates, learning, and occasional technical disasters. Together they explore what they've learned from speaking with academics, practitioners, people with lived experience, and thought leaders from across and beyond social work. They discuss the limits of concepts such as trauma-informed practice, the importance of professional curiosity, systemic thinking, humility, relationships, and the enduring complexity of child protection work. Along the way, they revisit some of their most memorable guests, reflect on how the podcast has evolved, share what drives each other slightly mad, and wrestle with one of the biggest questions of all: what is social work actually for? Part celebration, part stocktake, and part conversation between two friends who have spent 100 episodes thinking out loud together, this episode offers a candid glimpse behind the scenes of the podcast and the ideas that continue to shape it. Thank you to everyone who has listened, contributed, challenged, shared, and joined us for the journey so far.

  5. Sep 28

    Terri-Anne on care experience, loneliness and the courage to challenge patterns passed down through generations

    In this episode of This Is Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined once again by care-experienced advocate, project worker and Churchill Fellow, Terri-Anne Hamer. Terri-Anne shares insights from her Churchill Fellowship research exploring how we break intergenerational cycles of child removal. From Denmark to Jamaica, her travels challenged assumptions and revealed a surprisingly consistent message: while services matter, what often makes the greatest difference is belonging, community and meaningful relationships. Together, they explore care experience, loneliness, identity, parenting, and the courage required to challenge patterns passed down through generations. Terri-Anne reflects on the role of her own "village" in helping her build a different future for her children, and makes a compelling case for support that extends beyond childhood and into adulthood. Along the way, the conversation touches on relational leadership, the unseen work of relationships, internalised shame, and why breaking cycles is rarely something people achieve alone. A thoughtful, moving and hopeful discussion about what becomes possible when we stop asking, "What's wrong with people?" and start asking, "Who stands alongside them?" Topics discussed: Breaking intergenerational cycles of child removalCare experience and parentingThe Churchill Fellowship journeyRelational practice and relational activismLoneliness, belonging and communityThe importance of "the village"Supporting care-experienced adultsLeadership, systems and creating the conditions for change"If it takes a village to raise a child, why does the village disappear when that child becomes an adult?" - Terri-Anne Hamer

  6. Sep 18

    "I call her my second mum" The extraordinary relationship between care leaver Shakira and her Personal Advisor, Sarah.

    What difference can one consistent relationship make in a young person's life? In this moving and deeply honest episode, Rich and Tim are joined by care leaver Shakira Peart and her Personal Advisor Sarah Fisher. Together, they reflect on a seven-year relationship that has endured through trauma, loss, domestic abuse, homelessness, mental health challenges, parenting struggles, and ultimately, remarkable personal growth. Shakira speaks candidly about losing her mum at 14, living with undiagnosed autism, ADHD and bipolar disorder, surviving abusive relationships, and the painful experience of having her first two children removed from her care. She also shares how becoming a mother to her daughter Aurora, who has significant additional needs, has helped her make sense of her own experiences and find new strength and purpose. At the heart of the conversation is Sarah's unwavering presence. This episode shines a light on the vital role Personal Advisors play in the lives of care-experienced young people: offering consistency, hope, practical support, and a relationship that doesn't disappear when life gets messy. As Shakira prepares to graduate with a first-class Psychology degree, accompanied by the Personal Advisor she affectionately calls her "second mum", this is a powerful story about resilience, recovery, and the transformative impact of someone refusing to give up on you. Content note: This episode contains discussions about bereavement, domestic abuse, mental health difficulties, self-harm, trauma, and child removal.

  7. Sep 11

    What social workers get wrong in court: Insights from family barrister Gemma Chapman

    In this episode, Richard Devine sits down with family law barrister Gemma Chapman to explore the intersection between social work, family justice and advocacy. Gemma shares her journey into family law, what she enjoys most about being a barrister, and some of the challenges that come with working in a complex and emotionally demanding field. Together, we discuss what makes an effective social worker, the qualities of a strong social work expert witness, and the common pitfalls practitioners can encounter when giving evidence in court. The conversation also examines an important distinction often misunderstood in practice: the difference between disclosure and allegations, and why this matters for assessment, decision-making and safeguarding children. We explore the role of legal representation within the family justice system, including how barristers advocate for clients while balancing professional duties and ethical responsibilities. Finally, Gemma reflects on the changes she would like to see in how services support children and families and offers valuable advice for social workers appearing in court. A thought-provoking conversation for social workers, managers, legal professionals, students, and anyone interested in improving outcomes for children and families. Key themes: Family justice and advocacyGiving evidence in courtWhat makes an effective social workerSocial Work Expert Witnesses (SWETs)Disclosure versus allegationsWorking alongside legal professionalsSupporting children and familiesLearning from practice and experienceGuest: Gemma Chapman, Family Law Barrister

  8. Sep 3

    Rich and Tim relational skills, networks, theory and leadership in Family Group Decision Making

    In the second part of their Family Group Decision Making (FGDM) series, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore themes six to ten, moving beyond process and practice into the relational, cultural and leadership dimensions of family-led decision-making.  The conversation explores: The relational skills and mindsets that underpin effective FGDM, including invitational practice, holding space, emotional containment, cultural humility and creating environments where families experience dignity, belonging and psychological safety. The power of networks and participation, examining how practitioners can move beyond a narrow definition of family to mobilise wider circles of support, including kinship networks, friends, neighbours, communities, fathers and lifelong connections.The role of stories, feedback and lived experience in helping us understand the impact of FGDM, and why stories often reveal aspects of change, identity and belonging that formal outcomes alone cannot capture.Theoretical perspectives that inform family-led practice, including restorative approaches, shame and repair, systems thinking, risk culture, relational activism and the challenge of balancing professional responsibility with trust in families and communities.Leadership, implementation and culture change, exploring how services can embed FGDM principles beyond individual meetings, create democratic and participatory spaces, involve people with lived experience, and build systems that place relationships, community and shared responsibility at the centre of practice. Throughout the episode, Rich and Tim reflect on power, participation, relational ethics, community leadership and what happens when professionals move from being experts and problem-solvers towards becoming facilitators of conversation, connection and collective action.  Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, coordinator, manager, therapist, community organiser or leader, this episode offers practical ideas and thoughtful reflections on building more relational, democratic and human-centred ways of working with children, families and communities.

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About

Messy Social Work is a podcast for social workers, leaders, students and anyone interested in helping people navigate life's toughest challenges. Hosted by Rich Devine and Tim Fisher, the podcast explores child protection, systemic practice, relationships, leadership, trauma, family support and the realities of frontline social work. Each week, we speak with leading thinkers, practitioners, researchers and people with lived experience to explore what helps, what harms and what social work can learn from both success and failure. Expect honest conversations, practical ideas, challenging questions and occasional disagreement, all grounded in a belief that meaningful change happens through relationships. Because social work isn't neat. It's messy.

Information

  • Creator
    Rich and Tim
  • Years Active
    2022 - 2026
  • Episodes
    126
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Messy Social Work
  • Show Website
    Messy Social Work

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