Messy Social Work

Messy Social Work
  • 5.0 (1)
  • Social Sciences
  • Updated Weekly

Welcome to the Messy Social Work podcast. The hosts are Richard Devine and Tim Fisher. Check out our website here: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

  1. 1d ago

    Connecting Research: Why social workers turn a blind eye and avoid mental pain in child protection

    Why do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities. Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available. The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them. A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear.

  2. Jul 7

    Rich and Tim on uncertainty, relationships and 14 lessons from practice

    In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull. Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about. Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics. This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers.

  3. Jun 26

    Rich and Tim speak to ex-undercover police officer and bestselling author Neil Woods about why the war on drugs is failing

    In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better. Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched. We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD. Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice. This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families. Contact Neil here:  https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woods https://www.neilwoods.net/ His book is available online and on audible

  4. Jun 19

    Rich and Tim speak to foster carer Gareth K Thomas: what every social worker should know about children in care, trauma‑informed parenting and supporting carers

    In this episode, we sit down with foster carer Gareth K Thomas to explore his experiences of caring for children who have lived through trauma, and what it really means to offer trauma-informed care in practice. Gareth shares honest reflections on the realities of foster care - the rewards, the challenges, and the emotional impact of supporting children who have experienced adversity. We talk about how trauma shows up in behaviour, how carers can make sense of what they’re seeing, and the importance of staying curious, compassionate, and regulated in the face of difficult moments. The conversation also explores: What trauma-informed care looks like day-to-dayThe importance of relationships, trust, and consistencySupporting children without losing sight of yourselfThe wider system around foster care - what helps and what gets in the wayAs ever, this is a grounded and thoughtful discussion that keeps the focus on real-life practice, not theory alone. Gareth on LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/garethkthomas/ Gareth's website:  https://garethkthomas.com/ https://www.clrfd.com/48/ Gareth's forthcoming book https://a-z-book.com/

  5. Jun 12

    Rich and Tim get headlines form Mithran Samuel’s, and speak to social worker Ellen

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  6. Jun 5

    Rich and Tim speak to social worker Rose Byrne about her upbringing, caring for her sister and ADHD

    Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  7. May 22

    Rich and Tim speak to Maddy McCormack (Social Worker) on the realities of Child Protection Social Work

    In this episode, we speak with Maddy McCormack, a social worker early in her career, about the realities of stepping into practice with children and families. Maddy reflects on her route into the role, what day-to-day social work actually looks like, and what she’s had to learn beyond training to be effective in her first year. We explore how she builds relationships with young people and their families, especially in contexts of risk, conflict, and uncertainty. She speaks candidly about the emotional demands of the work — including doubt, moral distress, and the cases that stay with you — and how this can shape thinking and practice under pressure. We also discuss what helps her stay relational when things are tough, what sustains her in the role, and the moments that remind her why the work matters. An honest conversation about learning on the job, staying human, and the emotional weight of social work. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

  8. May 15

    Rich and Tim speak to Sharon Shoesmith about Baby P, blame and learning from tragedies

    In this episode, we sit down with Sharon Shoesmith to revisit one of the most defining and contentious moments in modern child protection: the case of Baby P, and the national reaction that followed. Sharon reflects candidly on what it meant to become the focus of public anger—labelled, scrutinised, and ultimately removed from her role—despite leading a service that had been judged as “good” by Ofsted. We explore the personal toll of that experience and the powerful social and political forces that demand accountability in the wake of tragedy. Drawing on psychoanalytic and social theory, the conversation moves beyond headlines to examine how society processes—and often avoids—the reality of harm to children. We discuss the idea of social workers as “containers” for collective anxiety, the “pain of knowing” about abuse, and why narratives of professional failure can feel easier to accept than confronting human cruelty within families. We also interrogate the enduring legacy of the Baby P case: the rise of “never event” thinking, the political promise of certainty, and how fear has shaped systems that prioritise compliance over meaningful risk management. Along the way, Sharon challenges assumptions about gender and harm, reflects on what remains unlearned, and offers a clear-eyed perspective on leadership in conditions defined by uncertainty. This is a thoughtful, at times uncomfortable conversation about blame, denial, grief, and what it really means to safeguard children in a complex world. Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

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About

Welcome to the Messy Social Work podcast. The hosts are Richard Devine and Tim Fisher. Check out our website here: https://www.relationalactivism.com/

Information

  • Creator
    Messy Social Work
  • Years Active
    2022 - 2026
  • Episodes
    113
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Messy Social Work
  • Show Website
    Messy Social Work

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