The Fourth Curtain

Alexander Seropian & Aaron Marroquin
  • 4.8 (44)
  • Video Games
  • Updated Weekly

A GUIDED TOUR OF VIDEOGAME MAKERY! Hosts Alex Seropian (founder Bungie, Wideload, Industrial Toys) and Aaron Marroquin (Art Director, Game Designer, part time magician) take you on a tour of the minds that create our favorite video games. We may also wander around in our own heads too. We aim to inspire, educate and entertain you about the games you love, the people that make them and hey, if you're not a gamer we know you know one. This will help you connect with them too.

  1. 1d ago

    You Don't Know Jack's Mike Bilder Laughs Out Loud

    If your hilarious party game is laced with snark you know the work of this week's guest, Jackbox CEO Mike Bilder. One of the legion of the Midway diaspora, he saw the transition from coin-op to console. We discuss drive vs crunch, streaming platforms, and the human touch - this week! TIMESTAMPS [0:04:38] Intro: Mike Bilder [0:06:25] From Learn Television to Jackbox: The Full Company History Mike explains Jackbox’s origin story; he traces it from Jellyvision to You Don't Know Jack to Jackbox Games. [0:10:10] AI, Writers, and the Jackbox Principles: What Makes Jackbox Uniquely Human Mike explains their commitment to human-written comedy and game writers in a world of AI. [0:15:19] Early Career: From Motorola to Midway Hosts ask about Mike's first jobs; he shares his CS background, persistence breaking into game development, and meeting his wife on a Motorola work trip. [0:32:02] Nine Years at Midway: Coin-Op, NFL Blitz, and the Politics of an NFL License Mike covers what it was like at Midway, the culture, a forced pivot, and ultimately losing the NFL license. [0:45:00] The Art of the Pivot: How Jackbox Thinks About Innovation and What's Next Mike discusses the pattern of reinvention across Midway and Jackbox, staying fresh with party packs, and third-party publishing. [0:51:02] Platforms, Netflix, and the Race to Be Everywhere: Jackbox's Distribution Strategy Mike explains the licensing model, the platform expansion, streaming ambitions, and the Twitch audience mode origin story. [1:04:52] Mike's Superpower: From Engineer to Producer to CEO Alex asks Mike to name his superpower; Mike reflects on problem-solving, leading from passion, and 18 years of bringing joy through party games. [0:06:58] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 15m

  2. Jun 11

    It's Raining Technology with Nexon's Owen Mahoney

    We have an insight-packed and hopeful discussion with Owen Mahoney, CEO of Maplestory's Nexon. This Choplifter fan went on to acquire JAMDAT and DICE for EA, then saw the future with Embark. We discuss forever games, where stories come from and the huge growth coming - this week! TIMESTAMPS [0:00:00] Intro: Owen Mahoney [0:10:22] Medium shifts favor beginners Owen explains why every major technology shift benefits newcomers. [0:19:33] An “unusual background” Owen describes his and Nexon’s “unusual backgrounds,” and how they got started.  [0:33:23] Most pitches are a product problem, not a marketing problem "90% of the deals that I looked at to build a game... look very similar to something that was already out there in the market. So a lot of what people are calling a marketing problem are in fact a product problem." [0:42:37] Tried to buy Nexon three times at EA Owen reveals he tried to acquire Nexon three times while at EA, and eventually ended up joining them as CFO instead — including nearly landing Riot Games before being outbid by Tencent. [0:48:23] The "forever franchise" thesis behind Embark Owen explains the concept of "forever franchises" — games that don't have to peak and decline — and how that philosophy was central to their success and investments. [0:52:55] The industry inverts good game development Owen argues that big-budget game development is built backwards: studios front-load expensive art to get green-lights, while leaving the actual "find the fun" iteration — the most important part — until the end. [1:04:11] New technology always creates new kinds of game makers Owen's closing argument on the industry's future:  "Every generation comes with its new set of innovators." [1:08:40] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 14m

  3. May 28

    The Guts of Indie with Animal Well's Billy Basso

    We're hyped to talk secrets with Billy Basso, creator of the award-winning smash Animal Well. Beginning with educational and medical games he went on to solo develop Animal Well, which delivers a huge game in less than 40 MB. Surgery, celebrity and an ARG - this week! Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 22m

  4. May 14

    Patrick Söderlund and the Raiders of the Arc

    We kick off Season 4 with Patrick Söderlund, CEO/founder of Embark Studios and maker of the hit Arc Raiders. Former head of DICE and Battlefield at EA, he found faster ways to build. We discuss owing the community, AI, and incredible value - this week!  [00:00:00] Intro: Patrick Söderlund [00:13:23] The recipe for games people want to play Patrick explains that the core motivation isn't money, it's finding the recipe that makes people want to come back. He'd go stand in midnight launch lines just to feel what players felt. [00:18:25] 12 years at EA and why he left Patrick describes staying longer than planned, and ultimately leaving because he missed being close to the creative and building process, not because of the company. [00:21:22] What was missing: the building process Patrick explains the inner dialogue of walking away from a senior exec role – he knew he'd drifted too far from creation and needed to get back to it. [00:23:12] Battlefront II and its launch Patrick talks about a game that deserved a better launch, while noting it's still beloved today and holds up visually. [00:28:17] The 100X pipeline challenge at Embark Rather than trying to make things 10X better (which just leads to patching old tools), Patrick challenged his team to think 100X faster — forcing them to throw out all assumptions and reinvent their content pipeline from scratch. [00:39:19] Why Arc Raiders uses robots, not humanoids A deliberate design decision and the production cycle in action: how robots let the team hide quirks and unexpected behavior, discovering players don't have preconceived notions of how a machine "should" move. This also drove deep investment in reinforcement learning for AI enemies. [00:56:41] Patrick's measured take on AI in game development He separates automating tedious tasks from replacing creative talent, acknowledges the sensitivity around AI voices, and argues the industry needs to understand the full ecosystem before passing harsh judgment. [1:04:55] The Super Mario Bros. moment that started it all At 12 or 13, renting an NES at a gas station and discovering Super Mario Bros. gave Patrick the same sense of limitless wonder he imagines kids feel playing GTA today — and he decided right then he had to make games. [01:13:14] Outro: Wrapping Up Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 25m

  5. Apr 30

    We Open the Curtain on Season Fourth

    Our intrepid hosts provide a prologue to the fourth season of the podcast with a wide-ranging conversation on the state of the videogame industry. With appreciation for GDC, Resident Evil 9 and Phil Spencer, they also talk (of course) AI and signs we may finally be exiting the trough - this week! Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    39 min

  6. 12/18/2025

    Grade Expectations 2025

    For our end of year episode Aaron and Alex reflect on the year and a raft of topics in videogame dev: Steam Deck vs Switch, understanding how AI will work for dev, Netflix's place and "successful to nice" ratios! Devils and Dungeonauts within - this week! Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    46 min

  7. 10/16/2025

    Live Long and Prosper with Amazon's Christoph Hartmann

    VP of Amazon Games Christoph Hartmann is our guest. At BMG he helped launch GTA and went on to co-found 2K Games and publish NBA 2K, Civilization, Bioshock and Borderlands. We discuss the upcoming King of Meat, a very fresh take on how AI can help gamedev and more - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Intro: Christoph Hartmann [00:20:32] From Music to Games: Christoph’s First Break at BMG Christoph shares how his early exposure to computers led to an internship at BMG Interactive — a move that launched his career from music into video games [00:28:03] Learning from Sam: Building for the Future Christoph reflects on learning from his leaders and how to run a company with one eye on the horizon — always anticipating industry shifts to stay ahead. [00:31:32] Founding 2K Games: Building a Creative Powerhouse He talks about the creation of 2K Games and how the studio became home to major franchises like BioShock and Borderlands. [00:40:10] Captain Kirk, Not Spock: Leading Overnight Christoph shares how he was suddenly handed leadership responsibilities, earning the nickname “Captain Kirk” while his second-in-command was called “Spock.” He jokes, “I’m not Spock,” but explains what it taught him about command and trust. [00:42:12] Spotting Winners: How Christoph Evaluates Studios He breaks down what he looks for when assessing game studios — from creative spark to execution — and when it’s the right time to buy in or step back. [00:49:12] Embracing AI: Innovation, Adaptation, and Opportunity Christoph discusses how new technology, including AI, could actually improve development — making gameplay more adaptive and lowering production costs. [00:59:34] Joining Amazon Games: Betting on Live Service Futures After a moment of career reflection, Christoph joined Amazon to explore live service games — a model he believes represents the future of the industry. He shares why he finds Amazon’s culture both exciting and rewarding. [01:04:15] Leading Smart Teams: Managing a Crew of “Spocks” At Amazon, Christoph leads teams full of brilliant problem-solvers — his “Spocks.” He explains how he adapts his leadership to align incentives, empower experts, and keep learning as a leader. [01:11:57] Bridging Creativity and Business: The In-Between Role Christoph describes himself as the bridge between creative vision and business strategy, uniting both worlds to make better games. He also teases Amazon’s upcoming project, King of Meat. [01:16:56] Outro: Wrapping Up and Reflecting on AI’s Power Demand Alex and Aaron close out the episode, reflecting on Christoph’s insights and joking about the future of AI — and the nuclear power plants we might need to keep it all running. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 22m

  8. 10/09/2025

    Trip Hawkins, the Electronic Artist

    We're thrilled to speak with Trip Hawkins, founder and CEO EA, 3DO, Digital Chocolate and more. From childhood football strategy, to WWIII Sims, he grew to make a company of electronic artists who made legendary games. Calming Steve Jobs, hacking consoles and many firsts - this week! Episode Highlights [00:00:00] Celebrating 100 Episodes and a Wild Week for EA Alex and Aaron mark The Fourth Curtain’s 100th episode and react to the breaking news that Electronic Arts is being taken private. [00:02:31] What Happens When a Giant Like EA Gets Bought? The hosts break down what a private-equity acquisition really means for EA, from stock prices to internal culture shifts. [00:05:10] Founding Electronic Arts: Trip’s Vision for Creative Freedom Trip shares how he built EA around empowering developers and treating them like rock stars — a radical idea in the early ’80s. [00:17:44] The Apple Years: Working Under Steve Jobs Trip reflects on his early days at Apple, what he learned from Steve Jobs, and how that experience shaped his entrepreneurial mindset. [00:33:28] Madden, Licensing, and Building a Sports Empire Trip talks about the birth of Madden NFL, navigating licensing deals, and why the franchise became a cornerstone of EA’s success. [00:48:56] The 3DO Era: Ambition, Innovation, and Hard Lessons He opens up about the 3DO console — what went wrong, what it taught him, and how to recover when innovation gets ahead of its time. [01:04:37] The Future of Games and Trip’s Next Chapter Trip closes by sharing his outlook on AI, creativity, and what he’s building next after a lifetime of shaping the games industry. [01:20:14] Trip Hawkins on Failure, Resilience, and Reinvention Trip opens up about the three “acts” of his life — the rise, the fall, and learning to rebuild after hitting rock bottom. Support the show Thank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life! Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron Marroquin Find us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfe Videos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtain Follow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtain Edited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen Hensley Video Editor: Sarkis Grigorian Producer: Kimya Taheri Art: Paul Russel Community Manager: Doug Zartman Featuring Liberation by 505

    1h 29m
See All (110)

4.8
out of 5
44 Ratings

About

A GUIDED TOUR OF VIDEOGAME MAKERY! Hosts Alex Seropian (founder Bungie, Wideload, Industrial Toys) and Aaron Marroquin (Art Director, Game Designer, part time magician) take you on a tour of the minds that create our favorite video games. We may also wander around in our own heads too. We aim to inspire, educate and entertain you about the games you love, the people that make them and hey, if you're not a gamer we know you know one. This will help you connect with them too.

Information

  • Creator
    Alexander Seropian & Aaron Marroquin
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    110
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 The Fourth Curtain
  • Show Website
    The Fourth Curtain

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