The Matthews Mentality Podcast

Kyle Matthews

A podcast dedicated to exploring the mindsets, mentality, and motivation of the world's top experts. From athletes and entrepreneurs to CEOs and business moguls, learn what it takes to find success and build a deeper understanding of the mentality required.

  1. 3d ago

    63 Days in a Syrian Prison | Sam Goodwin

    Sam Goodwin was wrongfully imprisoned in Syria for 63 days, 27 of them in solitary, while chasing the goal of visiting all 193 countries. He is the founder of SGI Ventures, the author of the bestselling memoir Saving Sam, and an international keynote speaker. On this episode of The Matthews Mentality Podcast, Kyle Matthews and Sam get into how he was taken at a roundabout in northeastern Syria, how he stayed sane in a cell with no window, how his family in St. Louis got him home through a Lebanese connection, and the three-part framework behind his keynote, Winning Through Uncertainty: lean into gratitude, control what you can control, and treat uncertainty as an opportunity to grow. They also talk about AI, why CEOs hire athletes, and what Sam learned coaching North Korea's national hockey team. Follow Sam Goodwin: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/samrgoodwin/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-goodwin/ Website: https://www.samrgoodwin.com Get Sam's Book: Saving Sam: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/sam-goodwin/saving-sam/9781546007746/ Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo 00:00 Knowing the Finish Line 00:57 Meet Sam Goodwin 03:14 Going to Syria in 2019 03:52 The Road to 193 Countries 07:23 Two Armed Men at a Roundabout 08:49 Go Look at My Instagram 09:29 27 Days in Solitary 11:09 Hostages Count Up 11:40 What I Told 75 Green Berets 13:49 The Hardest Part Was Uncertainty 17:04 Forgiving People Who Aren't Sorry 18:01 Sam, You Eat First 19:50 Parents Waiting in Beirut 21:27 Chipotle, Cheeseburgers, and the ER 22:54 The Three-Part Framework 26:45 Faith When Everything Is Taken 28:04 Winning Through Uncertainty 29:43 The World Belongs to the Curious 30:40 AI, Tractors, and Email 33:21 Why CEOs Hire Athletes 39:10 Running a Company Like a Team 41:37 Suffering, Sacrifice, and Success 46:57 The Family's Side of the Story 49:06 My Sister's College Roommate 49:50 The Ransom Debate 53:51 Six Years in Singapore 56:29 Every Guest Said Just Start 01:00:18 Suck at It Long Enough 01:01:28 Why You Should Visit Taiwan 01:03:32 Get Off the Beaten Path 01:06:35 Rapid Fire 01:09:28 Coaching North Korea's Hockey Team 01:11:47 Closing Thoughts

  2. Oct 21

    Inside the Most Secretive Industry in Finance

    Private equity is the most secretive industry in finance, and Lee McCabe says that secrecy is now its biggest weakness. Kyle Matthews sits down with the founder of Claymore Partners, a former leader at eBay, Expedia, Facebook, and Alibaba, to talk about how PE firms ran for 20 years on Outlook, Excel, and cheap debt, why about 70% of private equity's value creation came from leverage, and what the firms that win next will do differently. They also cover why most businesses still aren't built on data, the three numbers every CEO must know, where AI is working today and why it still lacks judgment, the Rotten Strawberry Award and 007 work culture at Alibaba, and Lee's upcoming book, The Trick Is Not Minding That It Hurts. Follow Lee McCabe: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leemccabe/ Learn More About Claymore Partners: Website: https://claymorepartners.com Learn More About Not Very Private Equity: Website: https://notveryprivateequity.com Get Lee's Book: The Trick Is Not Minding That It Hurts (May 2027) Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo 00:00 Private Equity's Excel Problem 01:18 Meet Lee McCabe 02:37 What Claymore Partners Does 03:18 Why Businesses Skip the Data 05:41 Your Business on One Page 08:56 The Industries in the Sweet Spot 10:02 Who Actually Hires Claymore 12:19 Leaving Small-Town England 15:28 Joining eBay Before Anyone Knew It 17:44 Data Is the Math of Business 20:58 Expedia and the Job After Next 23:01 The Harvard MBA Problem 25:40 Joining Facebook in 2011 28:18 Done Is Better Than Perfect 29:44 Six Friends and You're Hooked 32:42 The Best and Worst First Job 33:26 Going to Alibaba 34:16 The Rotten Strawberry Award 37:00 Lazy Foreigners and 007 38:54 What Great Leaders Share 41:26 How He Found Private Equity 45:41 PE Ran on Outlook and Excel 48:14 Private Equity's Secrecy Problem 51:07 VC Creates, PE Reduces 54:11 Inside a Claymore Engagement 55:18 I Just Happen to Sell Roofs 59:26 AI Is Not a Magic Wand 01:01:54 What AI Still Can't Do 01:02:53 The Trick Is Not Minding That It Hurts 01:05:15 Work and Life Are the Same Thing 01:06:45 Three Numbers Every CEO Must Know 01:09:48 The AI CRM He Swears By 01:11:28 Advice for Future Founders 01:13:02 Not Very Private Equity 01:15:29 Closing Thoughts

  3. Oct 13

    He Trained Kevin Durant at 15. Here's What Made Him Different.

    Kyle Matthews interviews performance coach and author Alan Stein Jr., who spent over 15 years in elite basketball and now helps businesses improve performance, culture, and execution. Stein explains his book Next Play and the core idea of letting go of what happened to focus on what is, responding thoughtfully instead of reacting emotionally. Drawing lessons from Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, and Steph Curry, he emphasizes mastering fundamentals during "unseen hours," setting high standards, and using consistency as a controllable superpower. They discuss how entitlement, poor decisions, and the wrong inner circle derail talented athletes, and how in business elite basics include active listening, preparation, process focus, and clear definitions of "winning." Stein also outlines leader-driven accountability that becomes team-led, avoiding blame/complaints/excuses, detaching self-worth from outcomes, and protecting daily energy through strong morning and evening routines. Follow Alan Stein Jr.: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alansteinjr X: https://x.com/alansteinjr LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alansteinjr Learn More About Alan Stein Jr.: Website: https://alansteinjr.com Get Alan's Book: Next Play Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo 00:00 Blame, Complain, Excuses 00:58 Meet Alan Stein Jr. 02:09 The Next Play Mindset 03:47 From Sports to Life 05:08 Becoming a Performance Coach 06:42 Breaking into Elite Rooms 08:10 Coaching People, Not Basketball 09:33 Kobe and the Basics 13:01 Why We Leave the Basics 15:42 Early Career Humility 17:31 Persistence vs Stubbornness 20:13 How to Earn Opportunities 22:09 What Sets Kevin Durant Apart 25:03 Talent Wasted by the Wrong Circle 28:08 Listening as a Fundamental 28:51 One Shot, a Thousand Times 34:53 Steph Curry's Standards 36:50 The Math Behind the Process 39:58 When Talent Fails 40:42 Entitlement Kills Growth 42:26 Train Before You Have To 43:22 From the Gym to Keynotes 46:07 Accountability as Love 51:50 Sports Rules vs Office Rules 54:05 If You're Early 56:42 The Unseen Hours 01:01:19 Sustaining Elite Performance 01:04:05 Next Play After a Mistake 01:07:13 Self-Led Accountability 01:09:25 Getting Unstuck 01:12:40 Leading by Serving 01:14:37 Rapid Fire 01:17:52 Closing Thoughts

  4. Oct 6

    How Does an 18-Year-Old With $3,000 Buy a Business?

    Alex Smereczniak explains why raising capital is only worth it when speed is critical, trading equity for faster, higher-quality execution, and the value of investor introductions, governance, and choosing the right partners. He shares how he bought WakeWash in college using seller financing, sold it for about 10x, and how that experience led him to leave Ernst & Young to co-found 2ULaundry and LaundroLab, scaling into a venture-backed national franchise platform while grinding long hours and living scrappily. Alex discusses COVID-era board-driven decisions, raising tens of millions including secondary liquidity, and stepping back after burnout amid family and personal crises. He then details launching Franzy, an AI-powered marketplace and resource hub to make franchise ownership more transparent, address broker incentives and lack of regulation, and help people find the right franchise fit. Follow Alex Smereczniak: X: https://x.com/AlexfromFranzy Learn More About Franzy: Website: https://franzy.com Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo 00:00 Speed, Quality, Cost 01:39 Meet Alex Smereczniak 02:56 Buying a Business in College 03:07 Seller Financing the Deal 04:54 Lessons from Early Ownership 06:16 Choosing the Right Partners 08:24 What Franzy Does 10:10 Buying vs Starting a Business 11:48 Why Parents Push the Safe Job 14:35 Quitting EY for Laundry 15:57 Selling WakeWash 17:41 EY Reality Check 18:48 Starting 2ULaundry 21:05 No Work-Life Balance 24:31 Scaling and Hiring 26:37 Lessons from Techstars 26:52 Why Raise Capital 29:06 Equity vs Freedom 30:26 Investor Fit and Intros 32:35 The Value of Board Governance 33:32 Planning Through the COVID Shock 35:43 The Layoff Calls 37:04 Secondary Liquidity and Burnout 39:28 A Crisis at Home 43:52 The Sabbatical 49:35 The Franzy Idea 50:33 The Trouble with Franchise Brokers 53:44 What Franzy Lists 55:14 The Good, Bad and Ugly 57:30 Why Franchisee Fit Matters 58:49 From Validation to Scale 01:00:32 Respecting Franchise Owners 01:02:21 Red Flags in Due Diligence 01:03:31 The Quiznos Cautionary Tale 01:05:44 Nature vs Nurture 01:08:37 Loving the Work 01:14:32 Hard Lessons on Hiring 01:15:28 Execution Beats Ideas 01:18:32 Taking the Leap 01:21:18 Defining Success at Franzy 01:25:00 Closing Thoughts

  5. Sep 29

    Industrial Real Estate’s Best Years Could Still Be Ahead

    In this episode of the Matthews Mentality Podcast, Kyle Matthews sits down with Michael Brennan, Chairman and Managing Principal of Brennan Investment Group, co-founder and former CEO of First Industrial Realty Trust, and one of the most accomplished operators in industrial real estate. Mike's argument is that industrial is the rare property type technology has helped rather than hurt. E-commerce built the warehouses. Data centers absorb land. And robotics and automation are pulling manufacturing back onshore, because once low-cost labor stops being decisive there is less reason to be in Mexico or China. As he puts it, the best news for industrial may still be ahead. He has earned the right to a view. Mike bought his first building at 22, in October of 1979 — a six-flat and warehouse on the South Side of Chicago for $53,000, with effectively nothing down. He collected rents weekly and was his own janitor. Fifteen years later he helped take First Industrial Realty Trust public and delivered 40 consecutive quarters as its CEO. After leaving in 2008 over a disagreement with the board he started again, and Brennan Investment Group is now the second largest privately held industrial real estate company in the country. The conversation also covers how Brennan picks markets, why he watches tenants instead of forecasts, where he sees rates going, and how his company ended up as the single stock inside Warren Buffett's wallet. Topics covered in this episode: - Why industrial benefited from technology while office and retail suffered - Data centers, e-commerce, and the reshoring of American manufacturing - Buying his first building at 22 with effectively no money down - The Chicago fireman father who pointed him toward real estate - Taking First Industrial Realty Trust public in 1994 - Delivering 40 straight quarters and the pressure that comes with it - Why he stepped down from First Industrial in 2008 - Launching Brennan Investment Group at the bottom of the market - The five industrial facility types and how Brennan picks markets - Why he watches tenants rather than forecasts to choose locations - The single trait shared by every great professional he has worked with - Where he sees interest rates going and what would move them - The stock in Warren Buffett's wallet, and the phone call that followed - Sacrifice, work ethic, and what he would tell his 22-year-old self Mike also explains why he considers the company his only in trust, and why the point of building something is to hand it to the people who helped build it. Whether you're a commercial real estate professional, investor, entrepreneur, broker, or someone building a business over the long term, this conversation offers lessons from more than four decades in industrial real estate, investing, and leadership. Follow Michael Brennan: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbrennan Learn More About Brennan Investment Group: Website: https://www.brennanllc.com Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo 00:00 Manufacturing and Industrial Innovation 01:19 Meet Michael Brennan 02:31 What Is Brennan Investment Group 04:01 Five Facility Types Explained 05:11 Key Markets and Strategy 07:04 First Building at 22 10:03 Finding and Financing the First Deal 13:51 Early Career Work Ethic 17:45 Meeting His Future Wife 20:27 Jesuit Education and Character 25:18 Scaling to First Industrial 26:34 The RTC Days 30:00 Going Public in 1994 36:02 Public vs Private Life 38:26 Stepping Down as CEO 41:04 Starting Brennan Investment Group 44:21 Market Selection Strategy 45:37 Learning From Tenants 47:03 Scaling Brennan Investment Group 49:20 Building the Team 50:21 The Trait That Matters Most 52:14 LP Appetite and Product Types 54:05 Strategic Plan and Operations 58:54 Real Estate Cycles 01:04:30 Interest Rates and Technology 01:07:09 Sacrifice and Work Ethic 01:12:50 Building Brennan's Legacy 01:14:27 His Daughter's Husband Joins 01:16:21 Parental Influence and Motivation 01:19:52 Character and Painful Moments 01:20:48 Teaching Work Ethic 01:22:07 Advice to His Younger Self 01:24:16 Reading Recommendations 01:26:01 The Stock in Warren Buffett's Wallet 01:31:39 Closing Thoughts

  6. Sep 24

    Jennifer Fisher: Building a Brand Worn by Rihanna, Hailey Bieber & Coco Gauff

    In this episode of the Matthews Mentality Podcast, Kyle Matthews sits down with Jennifer Fisher, founder and Chief Brand Officer of Jennifer Fisher Jewelry, founder of Maedyn, and author of Trust Your Gut. The New York Times called her the Queen of Hoops. Jennifer spent ten years as a wardrobe stylist, starting out on commercials, before making a single piece for herself — a gold tag with her son's name on it, created after years of fertility setbacks because nothing on the market felt like her. She wore it on set, made one for Uma Thurman, and Uma chose to wear it on the cover of Glamour without telling her first. She has lived with a desmoid tumor, a soft tissue sarcoma, since she was 30, at a point when nobody was certain how to treat it. Twelve rounds of chemotherapy shrank it. Turning 50 and living with Hashimoto's, she later read her way into an anti-inflammatory approach to food that became her signature salts, her cookbook, and Maedyn, the lifestyle and media platform she now runs alongside the jewelry business. The conversation also explores bootstrapping for almost 20 years before taking on Centric Brands, a roughly $3 billion licensing company, as a manufacturing partner; the surge in demand COVID produced; how she gets her jewelry onto the people who wear it; and what gold prices and tariffs are doing to the business right now. Topics covered in this episode: - The New York Times naming her the Queen of Hoops - Ten years styling commercials before she made any jewelry - Making the first gold tag for her son after years of fertility setbacks - Uma Thurman wearing her piece on the cover of Glamour - Living with a desmoid tumor since the age of 30 - Twelve rounds of chemotherapy while building the business - Why she wants people in the office rather than remote - Bootstrapping for almost 20 years before any outside partner - Why COVID created a surge in demand for the brand - Partnering with Centric Brands to scale manufacturing and wholesale - How she approaches getting jewelry onto celebrities - Hashimoto's, inflammation, and rethinking how she eats - Where the name Maedyn came from, and what it is now - What rising gold prices and tariffs mean for a jewelry business - Her husband coming in to run the company - How her family, and the tumor, still shape what drives her Jennifer also explains why the biggest decisions in her career came from listening to herself rather than the people telling her to go another way, and why she kept going through the stretches when nothing went to plan. Whether you're an entrepreneur, founder, creative, or someone interested in fashion, branding, health, or building a consumer business, this conversation offers a close look at the decisions behind Jennifer Fisher Jewelry and the woman who built it. Follow Jennifer Fisher: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jenniferfisherjewelry Learn More About Jennifer Fisher Jewelry: Website: https://jenniferfisherjewelry.com Learn More About Maedyn: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maedyn Get Jennifer's Book: Trust Your Gut Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo 00:00 Rihanna Walks In 01:01 Meet Jennifer Fisher 02:35 A Day in the Life 03:57 Remote Work vs the Office 11:24 Work Ethic From Family 14:10 Money Loss and Anxiety as Fuel 18:13 Living With a Desmoid Tumor 21:46 The Jewelry Origin Story 24:24 Queen of Hoops 25:59 The Anti-Inflammatory Shift 28:10 Styling Career and Hustle 30:53 Founder Mom Tradeoffs 35:32 Raising Hardworking Kids 38:35 Always-On Sacrifices 40:36 Bootstrapping, Then Partners 42:19 The COVID Demand Surge 44:58 Scaling With Systems 48:15 The Celebrity Seeding Strategy 51:04 Trusting Her Gut 53:45 New Lines and Menswear 54:13 The Maedyn Origin Story 58:03 Adversity and Mindset 01:01:00 Advice for Starting Out 01:02:09 Being a Female Founder 01:04:45 Mentorship and Giving Back 01:08:50 Defining Success 01:10:07 The Nicest Thing Anyone Did 01:11:00 Praise From Anna Wintour 01:12:40 Fashion Favorites 01:13:56 Her Husband as CEO 01:16:11 The Rihanna Amex Story 01:18:13 Gold Prices and Tariffs 01:21:09 Trends and Lab Diamonds 01:23:32 The Long-Term Vision 01:27:16 Family, Motivation, Perspective 01:30:50 Closing Thoughts

  7. Sep 8

    Why the Most Talented Teams Still Lose

    In this episode of the Matthews Mentality Podcast, Kyle Matthews sits down with Dr. Andre Martin, organizational psychologist and Chief Experience Officer at LEAD3R, to break down why even talented executive teams struggle to align and what separates teams that consistently perform at a high level. Andre explains the idea of "collective confidence," the shared belief that a team can succeed together, and why that confidence often needs to exist before the results show up. Drawing from his experience coaching CEOs and executive teams and working at companies including Google, Nike, Target, Mars, and Disney, Andre shares what he has learned about trust, leadership, culture, hiring, and team performance. The conversation explores why executive teams lose alignment, how self-interest can undermine trust, and why leaders need precise, shared language around strategy and priorities. Andre also explains how companies can avoid the "telephone game," where a clear strategy at the executive level becomes increasingly distorted as it moves through an organization. Topics covered in this episode: - Why executive teams struggle with alignment - What "collective confidence" means and why it matters - How Andre coaches CEOs and executive teams - Lessons from working at Google, Nike, Target, Mars, and Disney - Why trust is the foundation of high-performing teams - How self-interest can weaken executive team performance - Why leaders need precise, shared language around priorities - How the "telephone game" distorts strategy inside organizations - Andre's "Wrong Fit, Right Fit" framework - How to tell the difference between a hard season and the wrong job - Why companies should hire for how people work, not just what they have accomplished - Common hiring mistakes and better questions to ask candidates - Why belief can come before a team's winning streak - How leaders can intentionally build collective confidence - Using low-stakes wins to create momentum - "Borrowed brilliance" and learning from the strengths of others - Identifying and using each person's "zone of genius" - Why teams should train and develop together - Common blind spots for CEOs and executive teams - Why leaders may need to "re-recruit" their teams as strategies change - The importance of modeling culture through everyday behavior - Why leaders should recognize the process, not just the outcome - How to escape a victim mindset and take ownership Andre also shares why great teams are not built simply by putting talented individuals in the same room. Alignment, trust, belief, and clarity have to be developed intentionally, especially when an organization is changing direction or navigating a difficult period. Whether you're a CEO, executive, entrepreneur, manager, or someone trying to build a stronger team, this conversation offers practical lessons on leadership, organizational culture, hiring, trust, and creating teams that believe they can win together. Learn More About Dr. Andre Martin: Website: https://www.wrongfitrightfit.com Books: Collective Confidence Wrong Fit, Right Fit Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo

  8. Sep 1

    Why Starbucks Is Moving 2,000 Jobs to Nashville

    In this episode of the Matthews Mentality Podcast, Kyle Matthews sits down with Stuart McWhorter, Tennessee's Commissioner of Economic and Community Development and newly named Deputy Governor, to break down why Tennessee has become one of the country's most competitive destinations for businesses, jobs, and investment. Stuart gives an inside look at how Tennessee recruits companies, supports existing businesses, and competes with other states for major economic development projects. From taxes and regulation to workforce development, infrastructure, logistics, and quality of life, he explains what companies are actually looking for when deciding where to invest billions of dollars and create thousands of jobs. The conversation also explores the growing push to bring manufacturing and critical supply chains back to the United States, why economic development has become increasingly tied to national security, and how Tennessee is positioning itself for the next generation of American growth. Topics covered in this episode: - Why companies are relocating and expanding in Tennessee - What Tennessee's Commissioner of Economic and Community Development actually does - How states compete to land major economic development projects - Why Tennessee's tax and regulatory environment attracts businesses - The importance of workforce development and access to talent - How site selection consultants influence corporate relocations - The role incentives play in attracting new companies - Why existing business expansions matter just as much as relocations - Starbucks' plans to create approximately 2,000 jobs in Nashville - LG Chem's $3.5 billion investment in Clarksville - Orano's $4 billion nuclear fuel project in Oak Ridge - Korea Zinc's $6.5 billion investment and the importance of critical supply chains - Why bringing manufacturing back to America is becoming a national security issue - Infrastructure, power, water, roads, and TVA's role in economic development - The opportunities and misconceptions surrounding data centers - How Tennessee coordinates across government agencies to move projects forward - What happens when Tennessee loses a major business deal - Stuart's transition from venture capital and business into public service - The values behind Tennessee's continued population and economic growth - Why Stuart believes one word defines what people are searching for when they move to Tennessee: hope Stuart also shares the realities behind the headlines of billion-dollar economic development announcements, including the years of planning, infrastructure investment, negotiations, and collaboration required to turn a potential project into real jobs and economic growth. Whether you're an entrepreneur, business leader, investor, real estate professional, or simply interested in why companies and people continue moving to Tennessee, this conversation offers an inside look at the strategy behind one of America's fastest-growing business environments. Learn More About Tennessee Economic & Community Development: Website: https://tnecd.com Follow Stuart McWhorter: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-mcwhorter Follow Kyle Matthews CEO: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kylematthewsceo TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kylematthewsceo X: https://x.com/kylematthewsceo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kylematthewsceo

4.4
out of 5
52 Ratings

About

A podcast dedicated to exploring the mindsets, mentality, and motivation of the world's top experts. From athletes and entrepreneurs to CEOs and business moguls, learn what it takes to find success and build a deeper understanding of the mentality required.

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