In this Matthews Mentality Podcast episode, host Kyle Matthews interviews Dr. Debra Clary, founder and CEO of the Clary Group and author of The Curiosity Curve (launching with Fast Company in October 2025). Clary shares how she grew up feeling like an underdog and used that mindset to outwork others, beginning her career as a 4:00 AM Frito-Lay route driver in Detroit before moving into leadership roles at major organizations including Coca-Cola, Jack Daniels, Papa John’s, and Humana. She recounts learning credibility through discipline, building trust with backdoor receivers to increase route sales, earning a promotion to manager in nine months, and discovering the “power of a question” after being publicly accused of damaging truck tires that weren’t hers. Clary describes being fired after a corporate shakeup at Frito-Lay, landing at Coca-Cola through a recruiter connection, saving the Papa John’s account by gathering franchisee feedback and securing a video from Coca-Cola president Jack Stahl, then later being hired—and fired—by Papa John’s. After joining Jack Daniels as VP of strategy, she earned a doctorate at George Washington University and later moved to Humana, where she founded and ran a Leadership Institute developing the top 600 leaders, then supported enterprise-wide onboarding and performance efforts under a new CEO. The conversation centers on her 2019 “joke, question, and puzzle” that led her to commission MIT researchers to study curiosity and performance, ultimately prompting her to leave corporate life, start her firm, and build a framework for balancing curiosity and decisiveness. Clary explains the book’s “optimal amount of curiosity” and the four drivers of curiosity—exploration, openness, inspirational creativity, and focused engagement—while also discussing working motherhood, getting help to scale at home, women supporting women in leadership, and the realities of entrepreneurship, including taxes, hiring support, and the long sales cycle before momentum arrived in her third year. 00:00 Underdog Mindset 02:26 Why Curiosity Matters 03:03 The Italy Train Moment 05:07 MIT Research Breakthrough 06:03 Writing the Curiosity Curve 09:16 Growing Up in Michigan 12:35 Frito Lay Route Driver 15:32 Hacking Route Sales 18:21 Union Rules and Weekends 19:23 CEO Notices the Spike 24:52 From Driver to Manager 25:45 Leading Different People 33:15 Hard Lessons on Firing 35:57 Women in Corporate America 37:26 Women Supporting Women 39:48 Women Supporting Women 40:11 Fired at Frito Lay 42:57 Risk Taking Lessons 43:32 Reebok Storm Connection 44:30 Coke GM to Global 45:05 Saving Papa Johns 46:30 Calling the President 48:05 Leaving Coke Reflection 48:59 Hired Then Fired Again 50:53 Jack Daniels Lifeline 53:18 Working Mom Survival 56:15 Family Business Culture 57:24 Doctorate Grind 59:37 Curiosity as Driver 01:02:59 Humana Leadership Institute 01:06:19 Called to Entrepreneurship 01:09:13 Founder Reality Check 01:11:02 When It Finally Clicked 01:13:20 Craziest Investor Day 01:15:51 Legacy and Curiosity Curve 01:18:02 Curiosity Framework 01:19:39 Closing and Where to Find
