The Permaculture Vine

Cormac - The Permaculture Vine
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We interview permaculture designers, practitioners and educators on how they discovered permaculture, and how they are doing in their permaculture careers and businesses. cormacharkin.substack.com

  1. 9h ago

    129. From Oil to Soil and Interdependence

    🌿 Interested in learning herbalism? Ecoversity’s 100-Hour Herbalism Program is a 6-month online programme covering herbal medicine, plant knowledge, medicine making and practical herbal skills, with live classes, recorded lessons and lifetime access to the course material. 👉 Find out more and enrol here:https://www.goinflektion.com/299ZXDG6/4WNR4Z/?uid=721 💰 Use code VINE at checkout for an additional 10% discount. This is an affiliate link. If you enrol through it, The Permaculture Vine may receive a commission at no additional cost to you. Jon Sedore joins Cormac Harkin to discuss discovering permaculture in Alberta, growing food and composting, leaving corporate work, hempcrete, the Interdependence Works Summit, local economies and building stronger connections between people and communities. In episode 129 of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin was joined by Jon Sedore to talk about his route from the oil and gas industry into permaculture, growing food, composting, community involvement and hempcrete. The conversation also covered the Interdependence Works Summit that Jon is helping to organise, its five pillars, disagreement and political division, local economies, community participation, shared resources and some of the projects Jon hopes to develop after the summit. Who’s at the Table Jon Sedore lives in Alberta, Canada. He spent much of his working life in business, including oil and gas and logistics, before leaving his corporate job in 2022. He first became involved with permaculture in 2018 and has since spent time growing food, composting, learning about herbalism, working with community projects and building with hempcrete. Cormac Harkin hosts The Permaculture Vine Podcast. In this conversation, he shared examples from his own gardening and composting, discussed community and political division in Northern Ireland, and talked about his planned contribution to the Interdependence Works Summit around global conversations and local action. Discovering Permaculture Jon’s introduction to permaculture came through his partner at the time, who had become interested in gardening and began exploring permaculture. Jon said that before this he had never gardened and had given little thought to where his food came from. He joined her in taking a Permaculture Design Course through Verge Permaculture in Calgary. Jon described the course as changing his perspective, particularly around design, inputs and how different elements can work together. One concept that remained particularly prominent for him was stacking functions. He described continuing to apply the idea of having something perform more than one function, including when thinking about people working together. Growing Food and Learning About Soil After completing the course around the beginning of 2020, Jon started growing food in Calgary. He was living in a small urban property where he created two raised beds and an in-ground bed, growing crops including tomatoes and beans. He also joined a community garden. His growing interest in soil led him to take responsibility for its three-bin composting system, giving him more practical experience with compost and soil. Cormac discussed his own approach to composting, including cold compost, hot compost and using material from a chicken deep-bedding system. The conversation focused on the practical process of combining different materials and producing compost for the garden. Leaving Corporate Work Jon left his corporate job in 2022. He explained that although the job provided good pay and benefits, he had become uncomfortable exchanging his time for work that was ultimately contributing to somebody else’s creation. He did not leave with a plan to immediately establish a permaculture design business. Instead, he wanted practical experience. Jon spent time WWOOFing and visiting farms to see how other people approached organic farming. He moved from Calgary to British Columbia and later Saskatchewan, where he lived beside a lake in the boreal forest and learned more about mushrooms. He eventually returned to Alberta and settled in a small town. Community Work at the Arboretum After moving to Trochu, Jon became involved with the Trochu Arboretum, a long-established tree garden in the town. He joined the society and later became chair of its board. He described trying to introduce permaculture knowledge into the way the organisation operated and bringing facilitators into the community. The surrounding area includes conventional agriculture and ranching, and Jon discussed engaging younger people with different ideas around plants, soil and growing. Much of this work was voluntary. Building with Hempcrete Another major part of Jon’s recent work has been hempcrete. Jon and his partner Kat, who is a herbalist, have spent considerable time working with hemp. He described hempcrete as using hemp hurd mixed with lime and water to produce a building material. They have built three of their own buildings using the material, while Jon has also participated in other builds. Jon discussed growing hemp in Alberta, where the short growing season means one crop rather than two. He said it grows well in the local conditions and described plants in his front garden reaching more than 11 feet. The conversation also covered regulation of hemp and Jon’s interest in promoting its use as a building material. Cormac discussed the licensing requirements around growing hemp where he lives. The Interdependence Works Summit The conversation then moved to the Interdependence Works Summit, an online event Jon is helping to organise. Jon explained that the idea developed partly from conversations taking place in Alberta around independence, government and the relationship between Alberta and Canada. He described seeing political discussions creating division between people and said the summit was intended to focus instead on interdependence and bringing people into conversation. The event is organised around five pillars: sovereignty, belonging, vitality, regeneration and prosperity. Jon described sovereignty in terms of individual rights and free will without infringing on the rights of other people. Belonging covers human and communal systems and how people work together. Vitality introduces conversations around individual and societal health. Regeneration looks at moving beyond sustainability and discussing regenerative approaches across society, culture and agriculture. Prosperity focuses on local economies, producers and ways of keeping more economic activity within communities. Disagreement and Conversation A substantial part of the discussion focused on disagreement. Cormac and Jon discussed how political conversations can quickly become polarised. Cormac described the divisions around Northern Ireland’s constitutional position, while Jon discussed similar experiences in Canada. Jon said he did not expect everybody involved in the summit to agree. Instead, he described disagreement as something people need to be able to engage with while continuing to listen to each other. The conversation covered the effects Jon believes COVID had on relationships between families, friends and co-workers, and his view that people have become less comfortable discussing differences of opinion. Cormac described his podcast in similar terms: creating conversations where people can have different perspectives without the discussion becoming an argument. Taking Part in the Summit Jon explained several ways people can participate in Interdependence Works. The website includes a section called Voices, where people are being asked what interdependence means to them. Jon said these responses will be collected and used to identify recurring words and subjects. People can also apply to speak. Jon said the event is not being organised solely around recognised names and that people who have a perspective or experience they want to share can submit information about what they would like to discuss. The summit will contain multiple conversations around the five pillars. Some selected conversations will be available publicly, while ticket holders will have access to the wider conference, recordings and opportunities to participate in discussions and Q&A sessions. Jon also discussed plans for an online space following the summit where people could continue networking and communicating without advertising. Hempcrete and Local Systems After the Summit When Cormac asked what Jon planned to work on after the summit, hempcrete remained one of his main areas of interest. Jon also discussed developing systems for people to work together locally. He referred to ideas he has encountered through One Small Town, sociocracy, WWOOFing and Young Agrarians. His interest is in exploring ways people within towns, churches, sports clubs and other organisations could contribute work and skills and create forms of exchange around that participation. Jon has also been developing software and described using AI to help him create code and systems despite not previously knowing programming languages such as JavaScript. Local Economies and Shared Resources The discussion returned repeatedly to the relationship between individuals, local producers and larger economic systems. Cormac discussed the difficulties regulations can create for small producers selling across different markets. Jon described similar concerns among farmers and producers in Canada, particularly where producers have limited control over how products reach markets. They also discussed the amount of equipment individually owned within communities. Jon used lawnmowers as a simple example, questioning why every household needs to purchase equipment that is only used occasionally. Tool libraries and shared equipment were discussed as alternatives where resources can move between people. This connected with a broader discussion about people becoming less accustomed to asking

    129. From Oil to Soil and Interdependence

  2. 4d ago

    128. Permaculture and Preparedness: Food, Water, Energy and Community

    Lindsay Brandon joins Cormac Harkin to discuss preparedness through permaculture design, including food and water storage, energy and heat, growing at different scales, off-grid systems, redundancy, skills and community interdependence. In episode 128 of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin was joined by Lindsay Brandon from Permaculture Canada. Lindsay joined the conversation from her school bus just north of Golden, British Columbia, where she is setting up her off-grid systems. The conversation covered preparedness through the lens of permaculture design, moving beyond storing supplies to look at food, water, energy, heat, waste, skills, property design and community. Who’s at the Table Lindsay Brandon is with Permaculture Canada and was speaking from her school bus just north of Golden, BC. She has recently moved from Calgary and is setting up her off-grid systems, including solar power, water, hot water, a humanure composting system and other infrastructure. Cormac Harkin hosts The Permaculture Vine Podcast. During the conversation, he discussed his own property and the systems he uses and is developing, including water, food growing, composting, chickens, a food forest and annual garden. Preparedness Beyond Food Storage The conversation began with government messaging around keeping additional food and supplies and preparing for extreme weather and possible supply-chain disruption. Cormac contrasted simply stockpiling food with using permaculture to consider how different systems work together. Lindsay added community resilience and interdependence to the discussion. Food and water storage were part of preparedness, but she also raised the importance of knowing the skills available among neighbours and knowing who could provide help in areas such as medical care. Cormac also raised the practical question of whether stored foods are foods people normally eat and know how to prepare. The discussion therefore moved from simply having supplies towards considering how those supplies would actually be used. Starting at Different Scales Space was one of the first practical constraints discussed. Cormac described his own property as one tenth of an acre and also raised the situations of people living in flats or apartments. Lindsay described the contrast between living inside a school bus and being surrounded by a much larger property. Rather than creating an individual garden beside the bus, she is participating in community growing systems already operating on the property. The conversation also covered balcony herbs, community gardens and finding unused land. Lindsay mentioned grants she had encountered in Canada for people willing to organise community gardens. She also referred to her recent trip to Iceland, where the range of crops that can be grown outdoors is more restricted, and raised indoor growing and hydroponics while noting their dependence on power. Using Permaculture Design for Preparedness Cormac framed permaculture design around food, energy, water and shelter rather than treating each one separately. Lindsay discussed the tools that might be available for extending food storage, including fermentation crocks, solar dryers and dehydrators. Those tools do not necessarily have to belong to one person. Lindsay described bringing people together for fermenting, with several people sharing the work of preparing kimchi, beet kraut and other preserved foods. Different people could bring different skills and equipment to the process. Cormac also discussed observing what is already available before beginning: skills, community, resources, money, food, water, electricity, heat, fuel and waste streams. Kitchen waste was used as an example of an output that could become an input for compost or chickens. Auditing Skills and Resources Lindsay described an exercise she is currently doing as she moves from city life to living off-grid. She is writing down her skills, resources and tools, including experience with soap making, fermenting, acting, music and dance. She described this as a needs-and-yields analysis that she is applying to herself so that people in the community can understand what she is able to contribute. Observation is also happening directly on the land. On the rainy day when the episode was recorded, Lindsay and Brian planned to walk the property and observe where water was moving and pooling and where ponds might be located. Water Storage and Supply When Cormac asked where someone should start, Lindsay initially identified water, followed by food and community. Cormac discussed calculating how much water a household requires, how much can be stored and whether more can be collected. In his own climate, rainwater can be collected throughout the year, although water intended for drinking would need to be treated. The conversation also covered storing water higher on a property where possible for gravity feeding, as well as considering both drought and flooding. For Lindsay, the current off-grid setup includes delivered water and access to a freshwater spring. Later in the conversation she also described plans for a Bunyip pump, which she compared with a ram pump, to move water uphill from the river without electricity. The property has two creeks running through it. Food Growing and Preservation Cormac described beginning food planning by asking what people actually eat before deciding what to grow. He discussed choosing crops and varieties suited to the local area and combining annual and perennial plants. Food resilience in the conversation also included buying food for preservation rather than necessarily growing everything yourself. Fermenting, canning and dehydrating were discussed alongside growing. Lindsay described Permaculture Canada’s design process as looking at the person, the property and what will thrive there, then considering food production, soil health, water storage, microclimates, preservation and plant propagation. She also described breaking implementation into stages according to budget and experience. Designing Around Climate and Environmental Threats The design discussion expanded into water catchment, composting, food forests, annual gardens, animal systems, kitchens and indoor environments. Lindsay also included rotational grazing where animals are present and eco-buffers or shelter belts. She described geography and climate as an early part of their design process, including identifying possible forest-fire, flood and landslide risks before moving into other parts of the design. A sector rose was mentioned as a way of identifying environmental influences and threats. The discussion included wind, neighbouring pollution or sprays, and the possibility of using snow fences to capture snow so that it later melts into ponds. Energy, Heat and Cooking Power cuts led into a discussion of what stops working when electricity is unavailable. Depending on the situation, that can extend beyond lights and electrical appliances to water and other services. Lindsay described her current solar setup, batteries, wind-up flashlights, candles and firewood. Her portable solar panels had blown over during the recording because of strong mountain winds, and she discussed needing to build a frame and secure them. Her cooler contains its own batteries and is charged from solar during the day. She also shuts down her power and internet systems at night. Cormac described keeping his cooking gas separate from the mains supply, with a spare bottle available when the first runs out. He also discussed his wood burner and alternative approaches to heating, including a simple solar air-heating system he had seen using cans, a small fan and a south-facing window. The conversation also covered reducing energy requirements before replacing energy supplies, including heating a smaller area rather than an entire house. Preparing Away From Home Preparedness was not limited to the property. Lindsay described a recent power outage along a stretch of highway in British Columbia. Shops without power closed, fuel was unavailable and one organic food store with a generator remained open. She also described keeping water and food in her vehicle when travelling through the Rocky Mountains. When her car broke down, those supplies meant she had food and water while waiting four hours for a tow truck. Both Lindsay and Cormac discussed keeping additional winter clothing or sleeping equipment in vehicles in case of breakdowns during cold weather. Tools, Skills and Asking for Help Community returned throughout the conversation. Lindsay discussed examining not only what she can do herself but where she needs help, including work on the school bus that requires tools or skills she does not have. Cormac described belonging to a tool library for £30 a year, allowing him to borrow equipment rather than purchase everything himself. Lindsay described skill exchanges within her current community, including exchanging yoga classes, massage and other skills. Lindsay also described her current experience of integrating into a new community and learning to ask for help. Her personal audit therefore includes identifying what she can contribute, what she lacks and who she could approach when she needs assistance. Community and Interdependence The discussion returned to the difference between trying to provide everything individually and knowing what exists within a wider community. Cormac suggested auditing community resources in much the same way as personal resources. Lindsay discussed identifying skills, resources and gaps, and considering who could provide help. Near the end of the episode, Lindsay also discussed the upcoming online Interdependence.Works conference. She described five areas of conversation: sovereignty, belonging, vitality, regeneration and prosperity. The event brings together people with different skills around the subject of interdependence and community. Redundancy When Cormac asked fo

    128. Permaculture and Preparedness: Food, Water, Energy and Community

  3. Sep 2

    127. Digital Permaculture, Ethical IT and Open-Source Tools

    In episode 127 of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin was joined by Dominik Jais. The conversation covered Dominik’s introduction to permaculture, his diploma work, the development of his Finnish homestead, digital permaculture, artificial intelligence, open-source alternatives, his book Digital Permaculture and his work with the European Permaculture Network. Who’s at the Table Dominik Jais lives in Finland. He is a web developer, permaculture diploma tutor and lead of the European Permaculture Network’s software. He also runs the Beyond Buckthorns permaculture homestead and wrote the book Digital Permaculture. From Coding to Permaculture Dominik first encountered permaculture in New York in 2014 after meeting people involved in DIY biogas projects through a local hackspace. During the visit, he attended a final presentation connected with a Permaculture Design Certificate course and heard a permaculture project being presented. He continued learning through books, websites and videos before completing an intensive two-week PDC in Finland in 2018 with George Sobol. At the time, Dominik and his wife were already gardening and beginning to develop designs for their own property. Dominik later began his Diploma in Applied Permaculture Design. His existing projects provided material for the diploma, including work on a barn and a communications design for the Finnish Permaculture Association. Beyond Buckthorns in Finland Dominik and his wife began developing Beyond Buckthorns after moving to their property in 2016. The project involves transforming the existing space into a permaculture homestead. The property includes several gardens and indoor growing areas. Dominik described an indoor food forest built into an old barn using reclaimed glass from a municipal building renovation in Tampere. The space is used mainly for perennial plants, with some annual crops such as tomatoes. The property also has a greenhouse and a recently completed partially sunken greenhouse. This was created from an old garage containing a working ditch below the frost line. Dominik plans to use it for trees that would otherwise struggle with the area’s winter temperatures. Their outdoor growing includes garlic, vegetables and a range of berries. They do not currently keep livestock, although they have a cat named Ms Sophie. Courses, Consultancy and Design Work Beyond Buckthorns hosts different forms of permaculture education. Dominik’s wife, Lumia, teaches an introduction to permaculture course in Finnish. Dominik has taught two PDCs in English and usually runs a biogas course every other year. They have also tested a regenerative energy course and different teaching formats. One format that has worked well is their design camp, which provides a direct and hands-on introduction to permaculture design. Dominik also undertakes occasional design and consultancy work. The projects vary according to what comes to them, with the largest consultancy project discussed covering approximately 12 hectares. Biogas in a Cold Climate The conversation included the biogas system Dominik installed inside the converted barn. He explained that methane production is highest at approximately 37°C and declines as the temperature falls. To operate the system in Finland, he placed it indoors and used approximately 40 centimetres of insulation. He combined it with a solar vacuum-tube collector, circulating hot water through the IBC containing the system. The barn now contains the biogas system, the indoor food forest and a teaching classroom. Applying Permaculture to Digital Systems Dominik distinguished between using digital tools for conventional permaculture work and applying permaculture design within a digital context. For property design, he uses QGIS along with graphics software including Inkscape, GIMP and Affinity. The choice depends on the requirements and complexity of the project. Dominik described digital permaculture as permaculture design conducted within a digital context. It still involves observation, ethics, principles, a design process and an assessment of available options. Cormac used his planned home server system as an example. The proposed system would store podcast files and family photographs while allowing files to be accessed and shared remotely. Dominik discussed examining whether a network-attached storage system was required, whether existing equipment could meet the need and whether open-source or proprietary software was appropriate. He also noted that a proprietary system might remain the practical choice if operating an open-source alternative placed excessive demands on the user. Artificial Intelligence and Digital Choices Cormac described using AI-generated elements inside Affinity to create visual representations of greenhouses and trees for property designs. Dominik raised the energy and hardware requirements associated with artificial intelligence, including mineral extraction and the production of computing equipment. He said that AI features can appear inside software without users making a conscious decision to adopt them. They also discussed AI-generated images and voices appearing in permaculture content and course promotion. Cormac described finding an AI-generated version of a speaker’s voice off-putting, while Dominik referred to the increasing presence of this material within the permaculture community. Platforms and Open-Source Alternatives The conversation examined the digital platforms used by permaculture organisations and individuals. Dominik questioned the reliance on large proprietary platforms and discussed alternatives including PeerTube, Mastodon and Signal. PeerTube was described as a decentralised and federated alternative to YouTube that can be operated through independent servers. Cormac discussed Nostr as a system through which a user can retain an identity and carry information between services. They also considered the difficulty of encouraging communities to move away from platforms where large numbers of people are already active. Messaging platforms were another part of the discussion. Dominik currently prefers Signal or Threema and does not use WhatsApp. He described open-source software as allowing its source code to be examined, while proprietary systems do not provide the same access. The Book Digital Permaculture Dominik’s book introduces digital permaculture and follows one complete digital permaculture design across approximately 200 pages. The design begins with observation and surveying. Dominik inventories the hardware and software he uses, evaluates those systems and considers possible alternatives. The book includes areas such as digital zones, hardware, software and messaging services. Dominik designed the book himself, including its fonts, layout and chapter presentation. It is distributed through a print-on-demand service and can be ordered through bookshops using its ISBN. The European Permaculture Network Dominik leads the software work for the European Permaculture Network. Its website is designed primarily for teachers and course organisers, allowing them to create profiles, list courses and share resources, books, links and funding opportunities. At the time of the conversation, Dominik said the website had approximately 230 members and around 2,500 visitors per month. The network also operates an assured-teacher process. A person must have completed a PDC, a Permaculture Teacher Training course and a diploma before becoming eligible. The process then includes a peer review with an assured teacher from another European country. The network has a core council, monthly meetings and an open-source community forum. Dominik described it as a growing project developing through voluntary participation. Permatalks, Dialogue Sessions and the Lync Project Dominik discussed the European Permaculture Network’s Permatalks series, which returns at the beginning of each year. The programme usually contains eight to ten sessions presented by different speakers. For the programme discussed in the episode, the network was adding dialogue sessions. Members selected areas of experience through their network profiles, and people with shared areas of knowledge were invited to take part in conversations together. The planned subjects included PDCs, introductory courses, online permaculture education and teaching at homesteads. The Permatalks programme was also connected with the Erasmus Plus-funded Lync project. The planned online convention included several sessions each day, alongside permaculture talks and networking. Moving the Permaculture CoLab from Slack Dominik is part of the Permaculture CoLab’s digital circle. The group spent a year researching an alternative to Slack. The CoLab subsequently moved from Slack to Discourse, an open-source forum platform. Dominik noted that the two systems operate differently: Slack is primarily a chat platform, while Discourse is organised as a forum. The decision involved evaluating alternatives and listening to members who wanted to contribute to the process. Sensors and Remote Monitoring Dominik also uses small digital systems around his property. Temperature and humidity sensors send data using MQTT, while sensors located farther away use LoRa. The monitoring includes greenhouse temperatures and the water line entering the house. Winter temperatures can reach approximately −25°C, so the water line has an electric heating cable connected to an MQTT-controlled plug that can be activated remotely. Dominik has also added a sensor to the washing machine so that it can indicate when a cycle has finished. For basic temperature monitoring, he uses smaller devices rather than running a complete Raspberry Pi system. Closing This episode covered Dominik’s route from web development into permaculture, the development of Beyond Buckthorns in Finland, biogas and indoor growing, the application of permaculture design to digit

    127. Digital Permaculture, Ethical IT and Open-Source Tools

  4. Aug 27

    126. Off-Grid Living, Productive Gardens and Natural Building

    In episode 126 of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin was joined by Steven Golemboski-Byrne. The conversation covered Steven’s introduction to permaculture, the development of his property in County Down, food growing, off-grid energy, natural building, biogas and the permaculture gathering in Ireland. Who’s at the Table Steven Golemboski-Byrne is based in County Down, Northern Ireland. He has been involved in permaculture for 15 years and lives off-grid at Lackin Cottage Farm. His work includes providing power systems for people who cannot or do not want to connect to the electricity grid, alongside consultancy on buildings, heating systems, natural materials, greywater recycling and water treatment. An Introduction to Permaculture in Bangor Steven first encountered permaculture while working on a community farm project in Bangor. The farm’s owners wanted to develop community farming and social-prescribing activities, but the people involved did not yet have a clear plan for organising the site. Philip Allen delivered a one-day introduction to permaculture for the group. Steven said the course left him with more questions than he had beforehand, but it helped the project develop a long-term design. Work on that design was still continuing 15 years later. Steven subsequently visited projects in Wales, including Lammas Ecovillage, where he met Simon and Jasmine Dale. He was also part of a group attempting to establish another ecovillage in Wales. Although that project did not proceed, the group had already considered how permaculture could inform the design of a future site. Finding Land and Making an Initial Plan Steven and his family wanted to live off-grid and travelled to different projects to see how other people were doing it. Before finding land, they developed a list of things they might want to include and considered how they could earn a living. Their budget was a major factor when looking for a property. They eventually found land in County Down containing some woodland, along with ground that had previously been closely grazed by sheep. Once they had the property, they considered which parts of their earlier plans were suitable for that particular site. They produced an initial five-year plan and a first permaculture design for the property. Renovating the Cottage and Working Outwards When Steven and his family received the keys, the house was derelict. They had previously lived in a converted truck, which they brought to the new property. With Claire pregnant and their daughter Lyra due to be born, they had 14 weeks to make the cottage habitable. Their first priorities were shelter, heating, bathing and somewhere to sleep. Food was initially grown in bags and containers because there was no prepared growing area outside. Rubble from work on the cottage was used while putting infrastructure in place, and development gradually moved outwards from the house. Once they had enough dry ground, they established a route to the planned polytunnel, began improving the soil and started planting. They also planted large numbers of trees during the first few years so that the trees could begin growing without losing another season. Practical Work Before the PDC Steven did not complete a Permaculture Design Certificate until 2018, several years after arriving at the property in 2012. Before taking the course, he had already helped to organise gatherings, facilitated courses and contributed sessions about the work taking place on the farm. Hannah Moll taught courses at the property, including during its first year. Steven completed his PDC in Wicklow. He described the course as practical and hands-on, while also providing more detail about subjects including ponds, soil and the process of developing a design with other people. Food, Fuel and a Local Group of Households The property initially concentrated on producing food for Steven’s family rather than operating as a CSA. Steven described a loose local group of four or five families who grow food and keep different animals. Food and other resources are exchanged within the group, which also places wholefood orders through Suma. During lockdown, members worked together on larger jobs, including erecting polytunnels. They would work at one property before moving to the next. This arrangement has continued, although the group no longer meets for shared work as often. Lackin Cottage Farm has usually kept chickens, although it had no chickens at the time of the conversation. Steven also keeps horses. One of the horses can undertake field work, move materials and pull timber. The property grows much of its own fuel. Existing woodland has been supplemented by thousands of planted trees, coppice and double hedgerows. Adjusting the Amount of Food Being Grown The amount of food grown at the property has changed over time. Steven explained that the vegetable-growing operation became too large to maintain comfortably, even when the systems were designed to require less intervention. The family has since reduced the scale of production to a level that provides what they need. They also try to retain resources within the farm and the wider group of local households. A smaller garden immediately outside the conservatory is now used more intensively. Steven said that concentrating effort in this area has made it more productive than the larger growing area further from the house. Some other areas are left without regular intervention. Steven described allowing them to remain wild unless they begin affecting another part of the property. Greywater, Rainwater and Compost Toilets For the first four years, the property relied on compost toilets, including one inside the house. The indoor toilet was later replaced with a rainwater-flushed system, while compost toilets remain outside. The cottage also incorporates part of the water system associated with an Earthship design. Greywater from the bathroom passes into beds in the adjoining conservatory, where some food is grown. The water then moves into a small pond and can be pumped back to flush the toilet. Rainwater is stored in IBCs. In one building, the structure was positioned in front of the tanks because rock prevented them from being buried. Building with Natural and Recycled Materials Steven has built roundhouses, compost toilets and other structures at the property. The buildings include examples of load-bearing and non-load-bearing straw bale construction, sheep’s-wool insulation, earth plaster and a reciprocal-frame roof. One building uses a rammed-earth tyre foundation, a timber frame and straw-bale walls. Clay taken from a nearby hole was used for the earth plaster, while birch cut approximately 200 yards away provided the frame timber. The floor was reused from another building. Sawmill waste, silage plastic and soil were used in the roof, which is now covered by growth and is not readily visible from outside. Steven said the structure cost approximately £400 and took around four or five weeks to erect, although the plastering was completed over a much longer period. It now serves as his office and workshop and is heated with a small wood burner. Insulation and Moisture in Existing Buildings Cormac and Steven also discussed Cormac’s garage renovation. The garage was being stripped back to its brick walls and roof structure for use as a workshop, classroom, office and podcast-recording space. Steven discussed using wood-fibre insulation between and above the roof structure to reduce cold bridging. For the walls, he described a possible build-up involving wood fibre, a vapour-control membrane, battens and an internal board. They also discussed the need to consider where moisture might condense within an insulated wall. Steven noted that his suggestions were based on systems used successfully in his own buildings and were not a guarantee for another structure. Off-Grid Power Systems Living off-grid led people to ask Steven where he obtained his equipment and whether he could provide similar systems for them. During the pandemic, this work developed into a separate business. Steven provides power systems for people who cannot connect to the electricity grid or who do not want to connect. The work combines customer installation, DIY involvement and Steven commissioning the technical parts of each system. He does not install solar panels on roofs. Many of the systems he works with use ground-mounted panels, while some customers already have photovoltaic panels and want to move from an on-grid arrangement to an off-grid system. Steven said solar panels were among the least expensive parts of an off-grid installation. Battery storage remained more costly, with shipping disruption and availability affecting prices at the time of the conversation. Heating a Biogas Digester The property has also used a biogas digester to turn food waste into cooking gas. Steven described two possible ways to maintain the temperature of a digester. A passive option is to place an IBC digester behind glass or inside a greenhouse. At Lackin Cottage Farm, the digester was positioned near the house. A coil of plastic pipe was placed inside the IBC and connected to the return from the heating system. Water returning to the boiler transferred enough heat to keep digestion operating. Steven said the optimum temperature was approximately 37–38°C. At temperatures in the twenties, the system produced enough gas to cook once a day. He was preparing to move the digester and test a greenhouse-based arrangement. Retrofitting an Existing Cottage A second cottage at the property is used as guest accommodation. Steven described it as an old building retrofitted with readily available materials rather than a new, highly insulated modular structure. The cottage does not use oil or gas, provides its own power and has very low bills. Steven also uses the property to demonstrate different building materials, heating systems and resource-

  5. Aug 26

    125. School-Bus Living, Off-Grid Systems and Community Stewardship

    In episode 125 of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin was joined by Lindsay Brandon for a Permaculture Canada livestream covering her move from Calgary to an off-grid school bus in Golden, British Columbia. The conversation covered Lindsay’s move from Calgary to a school bus in Golden, British Columbia, the practical systems needed for living off-grid, joining an established community, shared food production, sociocracy, creative work, travel and the future use of the bus. Who’s at the Table Lindsay Brandon is moving from Calgary, Alberta, to Golden, British Columbia. Her work includes permaculture design, yoga instruction, music, illustration and sculpture. At the time of the conversation, she was preparing a camperized school bus for the move while continuing to undertake permaculture designs and planning upcoming travel to Iceland and Thailand. Cormac Harkin is the host of The Permaculture Vine Podcast. He joined Lindsay for this Permaculture Canada livestream and discussed her move, the bus conversion, off-grid systems, community arrangements and future plans. Leaving Calgary and Downsizing Lindsay had lived in Calgary while raising her children for 23 years. With her children now adults and out of the house, she decided to stop renting a three-bedroom property in the city and move into a school bus in Golden. The decision followed winter travel with her partner through six countries in Central America. They were looking for places where they might spend Canadian winters while retaining a home in Canada near family and their children. Maintaining a city house while travelling created considerable overhead. After returning to Calgary, Lindsay found that the house was larger than she needed. She wanted to move away from the noise and routines of the city and spend more time on the land. The move also required a significant reduction in belongings. Lindsay estimated that she sold around 70 per cent of what she owned. This took approximately three months of managing listings, calls, collections and negotiations through Facebook Marketplace. She retained her instruments, recording equipment, seasonal clothing and other belongings that she still needed. These are being stored in a rented 20-foot shipping container near the airport, allowing her to collect or exchange equipment and seasonal items when she returns to Calgary. Making Space for Creative Work Lindsay described the move as an opportunity to spend more time on music, songwriting, painting, illustration and sculpture. In Calgary, she had a large music studio but generally used it only occasionally in the evenings. On the land, she intends to create music with other artists, build sculptures in the woods and paint murals on the school bus and shipping containers. She also plans to use a virtual reality headset to transfer her illustrations onto larger surfaces. Drawings can be loaded into an application, enlarged to the required scale and viewed against the surface being painted. Lindsay intends to use this process to turn sketches into large murals on the bus and other structures. A future music studio may be housed in a yurt. She also discussed purchasing two shipping containers and using them as separate workshop spaces beneath a large covered structure. Stewarding Land Without Owning It The conversation considered the difference between purchasing land and entering an arrangement to inhabit and help steward land owned by someone else. Lindsay is exploring agreements based on the needs of both the landowners and the people living there. She mentioned bartering, trading and contributing skills as possible parts of these arrangements. She plans to spend a year living in the school bus on the property before deciding where to position it permanently. This will allow time to observe different parts of the land before choosing a longer-term location. Lindsay and her partner are also considering eventually building an earthship. She said they hoped to begin that process the following year, but the location had not yet been selected. The initial infrastructure may include two shipping containers with a Quonset-style roof between or above them. The containers would provide workshop space, while the covered area could be used to protect the school bus and other vehicles during the snowy Golden winters when Lindsay and her partner are travelling elsewhere. Preparing the School Bus The vehicle is a full-sized International school bus that had already been camperized. Lindsay thought it was approximately 25 feet long but was not certain of the measurement. At the time of the recording, the bus could not safely make the journey through the mountain pass to Golden. It needed a fuel pump and new tyres, so it was due to be transported on a flatbed. A diesel mechanic in the area would be able to work on it after it arrived. The bus already had plumbing, curtains, shelving and considerable storage. A friend removed part of the former bunk-bed structure and built a two-level workspace. Clothing bins fit on the lower level, while the upper level serves as a standing desk. Covered windows were also reopened to bring more natural light into the bus. Another friend built a new bed frame with storage underneath and repaired broken glass. An additional countertop was installed near the front to provide more food-preparation space. The existing full-sized refrigerator will not initially be operated because of its power demand. It will instead provide storage for dry food and dishes, with the option of selling it later. Water, Hot Water and Composting Toilets The bus has plumbed water, but the hot-water system had not yet arrived at the time of the conversation. Lindsay had ordered a propane on-demand unit, which remained on back order. Water will be obtained from the property, where there are creeks and wells. Lindsay plans to capture and store it in a larger container connected to the bus system. There is no fitted bathroom. The bus has an empty cubicle that could hold a bucket and toilet seat when going outside is impractical. One of Lindsay’s first jobs will be to build a three-stage composting system into which toilet buckets can be emptied. There was already a box and seat at one prospective location, and sawdust was readily available. A shelter would still be needed to keep the toilet covered during cold or wet weather. Until the on-demand hot-water unit arrives, Lindsay considered using a solar shower bag or black pipe placed on the roof. Cormac also described a compost-heated water arrangement in which pipe was routed through a compost heap, as well as the simpler option of using black pipe heated by the sun. Lindsay also mentioned the possibility of heating water using copper pipe around a fire made in a converted keg. Current fire restrictions limit the use of open flames, although she said propane fire pits were permitted under the restrictions she described. Building the Solar System The solar installation was still incomplete despite Lindsay allowing more than six weeks to assemble it. She and her partner already owned a Bluetti power bank that had been charged from the alternator of their truck. They had used it to run DJ turntables and other equipment during pop-up performances. For the bus, they ordered an expansion battery and 500-watt solar panels. The first expansion unit arrived cracked on both sides. Its replacement was then delivered to an address where Lindsay had lived two houses previously. Finding the correct cables also proved difficult. Some components came from different suppliers, while tariffs affected the practicality of ordering equipment from outside Canada. Once complete, Lindsay expected the system to take approximately six hours to charge and provide more power than she required. Her computer has a relatively low demand, and she does not expect to spend long periods inside using electrical equipment. The bus also has a conventional fuse box that could be used when connected to mains electricity at a campground. Lindsay’s normal arrangement, however, will be based on the separate solar system. Refrigeration and Food Storage For refrigeration, Lindsay purchased a 58-litre Anker Solix EverFrost 2 rolling cooler. The unit has two separately controlled compartments, allowing different combinations of refrigeration and freezing. Lindsay noted that the internal compartments were smaller than she expected relative to the overall size of the unit, with part of the space used for its battery system. They purchased three batteries. Lindsay believed that one battery could run the unit for approximately three days. The batteries can be charged through the solar power system, and the cooler can be monitored and controlled through a phone application. Shared Gardens and Food Production The Golden property already operates a community garden. Lindsay said that someone who contributes one day of work can eat from it. The garden is large, irrigated and open to additional planting. It includes a range of vegetables and a dedicated structure containing hot peppers and basil. Other gardens around the property have different functions. The property also has ducks, chickens and pigs. Eggs, bacon, sausages and other meat products are produced there. One of the landowners also owns the natural food shop in town, and products from the property are sold through an existing store. The mountainous ground is rocky and rich in minerals. The people living there have spent years building soil with hügelkultur, imported biomass and composting systems. A compost collection programme at the natural food shop previously brought material from town to the property. Some of it was fed to chickens, with the resulting manure contributing to soil production. Pigs are now also part of that process. Lindsay brought a collection of perennial plants that had previously moved from her parents’ property to her Calgary home. Some were planted among existing orc

    125. School-Bus Living, Off-Grid Systems and Community Stewardship

  6. Aug 25

    124. Permaculture Projects, Off-Grid Living and Community Teams

    In episode 124 of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin was joined by Lindsay Brandon of Permaculture Canada and Neal Hegarty from Lake Atitlán in Guatemala. The conversation covered Lindsay’s current design projects and planned move into a school bus, approaches to managing human waste, Neal’s greywater work around Lake Atitlán, the selection of plants for riparian areas, and their experiences of building teams around permaculture projects. Who’s at the Table Lindsay Brandon joined from Calgary, where she had been based for 19 years. Through Permaculture Canada, she was working on projects with a First Nations community on Vancouver Island, an agricultural and guest accommodation property outside Calgary, and a women’s wellness retreat centre and residence in Oaxaca. She was also preparing to move into a school bus in British Columbia. Neal Hegarty joined from Lake Atitlán in Guatemala. He was working from his farm and collaborating with local people, farmers, nonprofit organisations and the municipality of San Pedro on greywater, planting and land regeneration projects. He was also running a training community connecting landowners with developing designers and teachers. Current Permaculture Canada Projects Lindsay described a First Nations project on Vancouver Island that began in May. The work involved meeting members of the community, discussing their vision for the future and exploring how permaculture could be incorporated into their communities. It also included conversations about ancestral knowledge and connections between elders and younger people. Outside Calgary, she was working on a small agricultural property that also operates as a luxury bed-and-breakfast rental with horses. The property includes an adobe house, and Lindsay was preparing to collect drone footage for the base maps she would use in the design. Her third main project was a women’s wellness retreat centre and residence on a site of just under five acres near Salchi and Zipolite in Oaxaca. She was collaborating with Scott Howard of Earth in Hand, who was expected to build earthen homes as part of the project. They had recently completed a site visit together. Preparing to Live in a School Bus Lindsay was preparing to leave Calgary and move into a converted school bus in the mountains of British Columbia. Although the bus had already been adapted for accommodation, she planned to remove bunk beds and create an office, music table and library area. A damaged bed frame also needed to be replaced because of concerns about water damage and air quality. The planned off-grid setup included solar panels, a Blue Eddy power unit with an additional battery, a solar-powered cooler and a propane on-demand water heater. The aim was to have enough stored power for approximately three days, depending on available sunlight. The bus was not running, despite attempts to identify a possible fuel-pump problem. Its tyres were also too worn for a journey through the Rocky Mountains. The immediate plan was therefore to transport it on a flatbed, while retaining the longer-term aim of getting it running so that it could be moved around the property. Lindsay was also considering whether to move the collection of fruit and support plants currently growing in her Calgary garden. The collection included cherries, haskaps, currants, gooseberries, grapes, hops and buffalo berry, with around 53 berry bushes planted in a small area. Toilets and Human-Waste Composting The school bus did not have a toilet system. Lindsay discussed beginning with either a simple bucket toilet and a three-stage composting arrangement or a pit toilet. She described the three-stage approach as filling one composting area, leaving it to rest and moving on to the next. This would allow the material to remain in place over a number of years before being used as compost. Cormac described several systems he had encountered. One directed solid waste into a large container containing composting worms, while urine was separated and passed through a reed bed. Another used replaceable wheelie bins beneath a raised toilet, with sawdust added after use. Full bins could then be moved aside and left to process while another bin was placed beneath the toilet. Lindsay had seen a wheelie-bin arrangement used at a gathering in Panama. She recalled that the toilets were continuously maintained, the bins were changed regularly and the system produced little smell. For her own site, she expected to use sawdust and said that protecting the surrounding watershed would be a primary consideration. Greywater Work at Lake Atitlán Neal described a kitchen greywater project that had been operating successfully before the work expanded into a larger collaboration with the municipality of San Pedro. The municipality had asked him to examine a beachfront area intended to become an eco-park. The site had large streams of dirty greywater entering a narrow section of beach. An existing proposal involved placing the water in a pipe and carrying it farther into the lake. Neal asked the municipality to consider alternatives. Working with Jeremy and others, he helped develop a riparian planting design intended to intercept and use the water before it entered the lake. Municipal representatives visited existing projects, including work completed through Water for Life, before deciding to support the approach. Public posts about the work brought offers of assistance. This led to the development of a volunteer programme in which visitors could help with local projects and learn while participating. The work included municipal projects, food forests created with Indigenous neighbours, and interception and irrigation systems on farms with greywater streams passing through them. Riparian Plants and Public Criticism Some public criticism focused on the use of a plant that was not endemic to the Lake Atitlán area. Neal said the plant was believed to have been brought there by the Aztecs and had been planted for several decades through programmes involving an Indigenous-led nonprofit and a government organisation. He described the plant as growing in shallow water along the shoreline, providing habitat and performing well near places where contaminated water entered the lake. The volunteer group participated in planting days organised by the local organisations rather than selecting and introducing the plant independently. The criticism expanded into broader claims about non-native plants, colonisation and gentrification. Neal responded publicly to some of the comments and acknowledged that his sarcastic responses increased the engagement around the dispute. Cormac and Neal also discussed the difference between removing established non-native plantings at once and changing them gradually. Neal referred to Brendan Guinan’s approach of thinning pine and cypress plantations over time, using the timber for construction and introducing cattle as more light became available. Travel, Design Work and Permaculture as a Lifestyle Lindsay was considering several forthcoming trips. She had been invited to speak at a conference in Thailand, although the cost and timing still needed to be assessed. She planned to travel to Brazil to study capoeira and was due to speak about permaculture and lifestyle at the Eclipse Festival in Iceland. She explained that frequent travel was one reason for leaving her rented home. Maintaining a house in Calgary no longer suited the amount of time she spent away, while the school bus offered lower overheads and a base that could accommodate her design work, podcasting, instruments and art supplies. Neal contrasted this with his current decision to remain at Lake Atitlán while his children were young. Staying in one place had allowed several of his projects, working relationships and training activities to begin operating together. Filming Soñado at Lake Atitlán Neal also spoke about appearing in a short film called Soñado. The filmmaker had previously attended a permaculture course at Neal’s farm and later wrote a film set there, with Neal playing a version of himself. The production was filmed on the farm and at other projects around Lake Atitlán. Several years later, it was accepted into a series of film festivals, including the Dances With Films festival in Los Angeles. Neal travelled to Los Angeles for the screening, where he saw the completed film and reconnected with the cast. Connecting Landowners, Designers and Volunteers Neal’s training community had recently attracted more landowners alongside people learning to become designers and teachers. This created opportunities to connect properties requiring design, teaching or implementation work with developing practitioners. Some longer-term participants had also begun mentoring newer members through their first designs. The programme used Concepts for drawing and design work and Loom for recording screens, sharing material and reviewing projects. Participants in the training programme sometimes stayed at Neal’s farm for two or three months, while volunteers generally stayed for one or two weeks. The trainees worked with the volunteers as projects were implemented. Neal described a wider organisational model involving a physical location, a designer, a teacher, an event manager and a project-management team. In his current working relationship with Jeremy, Neal focused on design, content, storytelling and attracting suitable clients, while Jeremy managed implementation, budgets and workers. Different Approaches to Building Teams Cormac described previous attempts to bring teams together that became stalled by disagreements about how decisions should be made. His preference was for clearly assigned areas of responsibility, allowing each person to manage their own part of the work. Neal said team-building required leadership, marketing, storytelling and the creation of value for the people involved. He also emphasised a

    124. Permaculture Projects, Off-Grid Living and Community Teams

  7. Aug 16

    123. Permaculture Design, Herbal Medicine and Building a Design Business with Maria McKenty

    In this episode of The Permaculture Vine Podcast, host Cormac Harkin is joined by Maria McKenty of Permaculture Canada. Maria has been working with permaculture for more than 30 years and currently runs her own design and build company on the west coast of British Columbia. The conversation covers Maria’s introduction to permaculture, her early training and design work, the practicalities of running a design and installation business, continued education after a PDC, herbal medicine gardens, her work with Permaculture Canada, and current community projects on Cortes Island. Who’s at the Table Maria McKenty is based in British Columbia, Canada, and lives on the small island of Cortes. She is part of the Permaculture Canada team with Lindsay Brandon and runs her own design and build company. She has been doing design work since her early twenties and has recently been working on design and build projects around Vancouver Island and Cortes. Cormac Harkin hosts The Permaculture Vine Podcast. During the conversation, Cormac also discusses his own work around site observation and helping people at the early stages of considering what they want to do with their properties. Discovering Permaculture and Taking a PDC Maria first encountered permaculture at 16 when she saw the cover of the original Permaculture: A Designer’s Manual. Two years later, she completed her PDC with Lee Harrison in New Mexico. After returning home, she began drawing designs for people and, around three years later, started earning an income through landscaping work.The PDC was residential and was organised primarily as a women-only course. Maria described studying in a straw-bale barn and completing practice designs for the people hosting the course. After returning to British Columbia, she continued training to become more familiar with applying what she had learned in a temperate climate.Over the following years, Maria attended training and workshops with a number of people working in different areas. She spoke about encounters and training involving Larry Santoyo, Amelia Hazelip, Michael Pilarski and others, as well as attending a Bioneers conference where Bill Mollison was among the speakers. From Early Designs to Paid Projects Maria’s first substantial project developed while she was working as a housekeeper for a family at a resort. When a house was moved onto the property, she suggested turning the resulting pile of soil around it into terraces and gardens. The idea was initially demonstrated as a small model made in a sandbox. The family liked it, and Maria was subsequently asked to direct the bulldozer working on the site. The project developed into rock terraces around the house with imported soil and a productive garden. Maria said the first-year garden produced more food than the family could use. She continued working on smaller projects and later restarted her business several times as she moved between different places. Her most recent restart was after moving to Victoria in 2015, where she worked for five years and completed full-yard projects. Running a Permaculture Design and Build Business Looking back at starting and restarting her business, Maria said business coaching would have been useful. She discussed bookkeeping, backend systems, tools, contracts and the other practical elements involved in operating a design and installation business. Maria generally works as a one-person business and hires crews according to the size and requirements of individual projects rather than maintaining a permanent large crew. For larger installations, she discussed the importance of clients understanding the likely costs before work begins. Materials, plants, labour, machinery and specialist trades can quickly increase the price of a full-yard installation. In British Columbia, she has also experienced rising labour and material costs, while island projects can involve substantial shipping costs because supplies may need to travel on two ferries. Maria also gives clients the option of participating in the work themselves. In those cases, she can teach them while they work together rather than hiring a larger crew to complete everything. For people wanting to make larger installation projects part of their business, Maria recommended getting help with the business side through mentoring or coaching. Continuing to Learn After a PDC The conversation returned to the training Maria pursued after completing her PDC. She distinguished between completing the course, gaining practical experience by putting designs on the ground, and learning from people who had accumulated experience in particular areas. After returning to British Columbia, Maria trained with several other designers and encountered different specialties and approaches. She also described learning about winter greenhouse design, including sun angles, insulation and minimally heated greenhouses in temperate climates. Maria began with gardens and smaller projects before moving towards projects with greater scale and consequence. She described this as working her way up in terms of the scale of the work she was undertaking. Herbal Medicine and Permaculture Gardens Herbal medicine became another area of Maria’s work. She has specialised to some extent in the crossover between medicine gardens and permaculture and has incorporated medicinal plants into client gardens. She discussed planting tea and medicine gardens and using plants that may have several roles within a garden. Yarrow, comfrey and nettle were among the examples discussed. Maria described yarrow as a perennial, relatively drought-tolerant plant used in food forests for beneficial insects while also being used medicinally. At her brother’s property in Victoria, Maria filled part of the understory with medicinal plants. She listed valerian, angelica, agrimony and meadowsweet among the plants now growing there. Cormac asked how someone might begin adding medicinal plants to an existing food forest. Maria suggested first looking at what is already growing locally, including plants found in nearby hedgerows, before considering what might be suitable for the herbaceous layer. The discussion also covered nettles and other plants already growing around a property, with Maria suggesting looking at what is thriving naturally around the edges of a yard when considering potential medicinal plants. Working with Permaculture Canada Maria joined Permaculture Canada when Lindsay Brandon started it a couple of years earlier. Their first project together involved Maria researching a design proposal for the Kwiakah Nation near Campbell River. The proposal covered a five-acre site being considered as a village site closer to town. Maria carried out research and a site visit, while Lindsay later travelled to the area and completed a full site visit. Maria also discussed work taking place within the Nation’s traditional territory, including regenerative farming and forestry research and a marine research project. She described work examining possible kelp farming and other future economic activities. A Community Food Forest on Cortes Island Maria also described a project taking place in her own community on Cortes Island. A local non-profit housing society had secured funding for an affordable rental housing development on a five-acre site planned to eventually contain nine duplexes. Maria joined the team consulting on and helping to establish an almost one-acre community food forest associated with the development. A community planting day was held in the spring, with 35 different fruit trees planted. The planting includes pomegranates and feijoas, which Maria said are technically outside the local growing zone. Teaching in the Community Maria is also moving into more teaching. She described plans for three free community classes over the summer covering a combination of regenerative gardening, an introduction to permaculture, FireSmart landscaping and herbal medicine gardens. She and Cormac also discussed teaching as another part of her current work alongside design, installation and her interest in medicinal plants. Closing The conversation covered Maria’s route from discovering permaculture as a teenager and completing her PDC in New Mexico through more than three decades of designing, landscaping and continuing education. It also covered the practical business of delivering design and build projects, working with clients and temporary crews, incorporating herbal medicine into gardens, her work with Permaculture Canada, and current projects involving a First Nation design proposal and a community food forest on Cortes Island. Maria said she has recently completed several design and build projects across Vancouver Island and Cortes while continuing to develop her teaching work. Get full access to Cormac Harkin at cormacharkin.substack.com/subscribe

    123. Permaculture Design, Herbal Medicine and Building a Design Business with Maria McKenty

  8. Aug 14

    122. Permaculture Design: Water, Soil, Site Visits & AI

    Permaculture Roundtable: Context, Water, Soil and Designing on the Ground In this episode of The Permaculture Vine Podcast Cormac and Graham are joined by Michael Wardle of Saviour Soil Permaculture. The conversation covered what each had been working on, permaculture design and site visits, the use of large language models, water management across different climates and soils, soil testing and contamination, weeds and ground preparation, and the practical work involved in consulting, designing and installing permaculture systems. Who’s at the Table Graham Towerton is based in Michigan, where he works with permaculture clients and manages his own seven-acre property. At the time of the conversation, he was carrying out spring installation work for customers, growing seedlings for client gardens, completing design work and continuing his engineering work. Michael Wardle works across Southeast Queensland and northern New South Wales in Australia. He is a full-time permaculture consultant, designer and educator through Saviour Soil Permaculture and said he has been doing this professionally for about 13 years. He is currently based in Ipswich and travels from there for his work. Spring Work in Michigan Graham had just returned from his fourth day of spring installation work for customers in Michigan. With the weather moving beyond the expected final frost date, he had started planting some of the more frost-tender annuals. He was also returning to gardens that had been established three or four years earlier. At one client property, perennial plants were already emerging, plants were flowering and strawberries were developing. On his own seven-acre property, asparagus was emerging, raspberries were leafing out, strawberries were flowering and around 1,500 garlic plants were in the ground. Graham had started seeds in January using trays under lights and on heating pads in his basement. This year, that had allowed him to take his own seedlings to customers rather than buying them from nurseries. He had ten customers in Michigan for ongoing work and expected to visit the remainder over the following weeks. Current Work in Southeast Queensland Michael had recently completed his 15th PDC as a student, this time with Robin Francis. He described this as part of his professional development and continuous learning. After returning, he had been catching up with his existing client work. He was also restarting his own nursery after several local nurseries he had previously used for client plants had closed. He had begun propagating perennial plants, although he expected it would be around four months before they were ready. Michael was also involved in a 12-month project with Permaculture Australia involving around 60 participants across Australia. Participants would record information including what they were growing, how much they were growing, pests, water use, tools and techniques, and expected yields across different climate zones. Alongside this, he was involved in a three-year bioregional project. Work already underway included a local seed library, schools and free community workshops. Large Language Models and Permaculture Work The conversation moved into the use of large language models and the difference between accessing information digitally and observing what is actually happening on a site. Michael discussed their limitations in research and education. He described PDC students who had attempted to use large language models to complete design work but found that the resulting designs could be disconnected from the landscape, climate and landform. Graham had used large language models for specific engineering research tasks, including finding research papers that he could then investigate himself. He also tested them for permaculture design and plant selection. When he asked for plants suitable for his Zone 6 climate in Michigan, he said the resulting list contained less than 10% of the plants he already knew could grow there. Cormac also discussed remote design. From his own experience, he said his view had shifted from seeing the completed drawing as the final product towards working with the client and considering installation and the work taking place on the ground. Remote Design and Site Visits Graham discussed his experience completing remote designs and working with installers. In his current local work, an initial consultation may establish what a client wants to achieve, their budget and basic information about the property, but he now places greater emphasis on visiting the site. Looking back at the designs where he had personally visited the property, he said those visits allowed him to see things he would not have identified remotely, including variations in soil that were not visible through soil databases. Michael described a suburban project that demonstrated another part of this process. The initial ideas included a herb garden at the front of the property for a client who was a naturopath. A soil test subsequently showed chromium 6 at a level Michael described as 3,000 times higher than safe limits. The design had to change. Removing the contaminated soil would have been extremely expensive, and its position at the top of a hill also created concerns around disturbance and erosion. Instead, the area was planted with native plants and turned into habitat. The conversation also covered maps and other digital information. Michael described arriving at sites with assumptions based on available data and then discarding those assumptions after observing conditions on the ground. Water Across Different Climates Water became a substantial part of the roundtable as Graham and Michael compared experiences from different locations. Graham described living in Western Australia in an area receiving around six inches, or 150 millimetres, of annual rainfall, sometimes arriving in only three rainstorms. That required different approaches to rainfall and rainwater harvesting. He now lives in Michigan, where annual rainfall is close to 1,000 millimetres, but he still stores rainwater. During his 14 years there, he had experienced periods of six to eight weeks with almost no rainfall. He has around 10,000 litres of stored rainwater and uses it for activities including watering seed trays and newly planted trees. He also has a well but said it was primarily intended to supply the household rather than irrigation. Michael discussed drought conditions in Australia, including a period when an area that normally received around 700 millimetres of rainfall dropped to around 250 millimetres. The conversation then moved into the relationship between water and soil. Michael described the heavy plastic clay at Robin Francis’s property. In those conditions, he said water management was not simply about trying to sink water into the soil but could involve moving it across the landscape and storing it elsewhere for later use. He contrasted this with friable soils and sandy soils where water can drain quickly. Graham’s Michigan property sits on very sandy soil. He had attempted to dig a pond but found that it would not hold water, and he was considering converting the excavation into a subterranean greenhouse. His approach to the sandy soil includes applying six to ten inches of mulch to help hold water above the soil surface. Soil Testing and Contamination The chromium example led into a wider discussion about soil testing. Michael said he encourages clients to organise soil testing because of the history that can be present within a property. He discussed several patterns associated with older Australian suburban properties, including lead paint around house drip lines, possible contamination beside roads and verges, chemicals previously used for termite control and the locations of former incinerators. Graham also encourages soil testing before design work. Sometimes the results show that the soil is better than its appearance suggests. In other cases, the results can change what is planted or how it is grown. He gave the example of clients wanting blueberries where the soil pH was around 7.5 to 8. His own Michigan soil is sandy and alkaline, and he said he had been unable to lower the pH sufficiently for blueberries. As a result, his blueberries are grown in pots. Dandelions, Thistles and Soil Disturbance Cormac had been experimenting with dandelion microgreens, which led into a discussion about dandelions and other plants growing across their properties. Graham described Canadian thistles on his seven acres. He had seen them grow strongly in areas where he had improved the soil with compost, manure and mulch. He had also repeatedly observed Canadian thistles appearing after major soil disturbance. Dandelions, plantains and other broadleaf plants would then follow. The discussion became more directly practical when Cormac explained that he was considering rotavating his front garden to remove the grass. Graham said he had previously used a rotavator but had stopped because it brought weed seeds to the surface and disturbed the soil structure. His current method is to cut the vegetation to ground level and then cover it with six to ten inches of wood chips or mulch. He said this had been about 95% successful at removing grass and most weeds on the sites where he had used it. Cormac then added that his front garden is sloped and needs to be terraced. Because the soil would need to be moved to create the terraces, he said he would probably rotavate it, terrace it and then mulch it. Listening to the Client The discussion about Cormac’s slope moved into the conversations designers have with clients. Michael described working with a client who initially talked about wanting a food forest. During their discussions, something the client said led him to question whether that description matched what they actually wanted. He suggested something closer to a holistic orchard based on monastic traditions and showed the cl

    122. Permaculture Design: Water, Soil, Site Visits & AI
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Ratings & Reviews

3.7
out of 5
3 Ratings

About

We interview permaculture designers, practitioners and educators on how they discovered permaculture, and how they are doing in their permaculture careers and businesses. cormacharkin.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    Cormac - The Permaculture Vine
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    125
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Cormac Harkin
  • Show Website
    The Permaculture Vine

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