The Metrics Brothers

Ray Rike & Dave Kellogg

The Metrics Brothers is hosted by Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike. The Metrics Brothers provides unique insights, strategies, tactics, and metrics that are relevant to AI-Native software and SaaS companies. Each 25-30 minute episode will cover a topic critical to leading a B2B software company, and chock-full of practical advice that can be introduced and applied in most Native-AI, Agentic AI, and B2B software and SaaS companies.

  1. 4D AGO

    Segments vs. Cohorts: What’s the Difference?

    One word can reveal a lot about someone's analytical depth, and on this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike break down one of the most commonly misused pair of terms in metrics analysis: segments and cohorts. Dave shares what sparked this topic, a Norwest benchmark report that used the word "cohort" when it clearly meant "segment," and explains why the mix-up matters far more than a simple vocabulary error. In this episode, Ray and Dave cover: Segments vs. Cohorts Defined: A segment is a slice of data defined by a shared attribute such as company size, vertical, or deal size. A cohort is a group anchored to a shared event and tracked over time, such as all opportunities created in Q1 or all customers acquired in a given year. The two are orthogonal concepts, not synonyms, and confusing them can signal a lack of the numerical fluency that sharp operators and investors expect Snapshot vs. Cohort Analysis: Standard dashboard win rates are fast and stable, but they only capture what crossed the finish line in a given period with no visibility into where those deals came from or how long they were in the pipeline. Cohort analysis rides along with a group of opportunities from creation to resolution, revealing how process and personnel changes actually affect outcomes over time Win Rates and Pipeline Coverage: Ray walks through a real example where cohort-based win rate analysis exposed a breakdown in discovery quality after a Q3 process change, something a standard dashboard completely masked. Dave explains why pipeline coverage goals should not simply be calculated as the inverse of a snapshot-based win rate, and how close rate (a cohort-based metric) gives a more accurate picture of both yield and timing NRR, GRR, and Customer Expansion: Dave makes the case that tracking ARR by customer acquisition cohort over time is far more predictive of long-term retention and expansion behavior than NRR alone, which only looks back one year. Ray adds how cohort analysis helped him identify a high-value expansion window between months 18 and 30 of the customer lifecycle, enabling smarter allocation of sales resources towards existing customers Combining Both for Maximum Insight: The most powerful approach is a segmented cohort analysis, tracking time-based behavior across meaningful attribute-based cuts of your customer or pipeline data. Segments tell you what kind of customer. Cohorts tell you what happened over time. Together, they tell the full story. If you use metrics to help inform decisions in your company, and have a goal to help build a culture of numeracy in your company, this is a great listen! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    28 min
  2. MAR 25

    Norwest B2B Sales & Marketing Benchmark Report

    The Metrics Brothers, Dave Kellogg and Ray Rike open with their introductory bit, which this week included Statler and Waldorf, the grumpy old men in the balcony from the Muppets, before diving into a thorough review of the Norwest B2B Sales and Marketing Benchmark Report, a102-page study published in November 2025, that included 177 participants (77 Norwest portfolio, 100 third-party VC/PE-backed). Key Topics Covered: Overall Report Assessment: Praised for its breadth, year-over-year trend data, and even split of marketing (40%), sales (42%), and combined (18%) respondents Marketing Budgets: Smaller companies ($5M–$15M ARR) saw dramatic budget cuts — down from $3.3M to $825K, nearly a 75% decrease Top GTM Challenges in 2025: #1: Positioning product as a "must have" — 44%, up 6% YoY Revenue Re-Forecasting: 66% of respondents changed their revenue plan mid-year; 43% increased it (down from 48% prior year), while 23% decreased (up from 18%) Renewals Ownership Shift: Customer Success owned renewals 56% of the time in 2023 — now just 29% in 2025 MQL Scoring Model Collapse: Use of formal scoring models (demographic fit + engagement) Top Marketing KPIs: #1: Dollar value of opportunities (pipeline) was number one metric at 56% CAC & Cost-Per-Lead Awareness - The "Bonus" Topic: 45% of respondents didn't know their CAC; 41% didn't know their cost per lead Closing Recommendations: Both hosts recommend reading the report, including pages 80–98 covering AI adoption in sales and marketing, that they were not able to cover in this episode If you are a GTM executive leading a software company or the CFO responsible for driving revenue growth and profitability - this episode and the associated report is a great source of insights! See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    32 min
  3. MAR 11

    The Rule of 40 Becomes the Rule of 60

    For more than a decade, the Rule of 40 has been the gold standard for measuring SaaS performance: Growth Rate + Profit Margin ≥ 40 But in today’s environment of higher interest rates, multiple compression, private equity leverage, and AI-driven cost pressures, that benchmark may no longer be enough. In this episode of the Metrics Brothers, Ray “Growth” Rike and Dave “CAC” Kellogg explore why many investors and operators are now targeting something far more ambitious: The Rule of 60. Dave walks through the history of SaaS economics, from the growth-at-all-costs era, to the rise of balanced metrics after 2015, to the capital reset that began in 2022. The discussion then shifts to the math driving today’s expectations: if private equity firms buy companies at high multiples but must sell them later at lower multiples, Rule-of-40 performance simply doesn’t always generate acceptable returns. In many leveraged SaaS deals today, hitting Rule of 60 can be the difference between a 1.1x return and a 3x outcome. Ray and Dave also dig into how the Rule of 40 is evolving in practice, including: Why growth still matters far more than margin in valuation modelsHow companies organically converged on the “20/20” Rule-of-40 profileWhy PE investors increasingly expect Rule-of-60 performanceThe impact of debt service, CAC inflation, and AI cost structuresWhy achieving Rule of 60 often requires radical operational changes The takeaway: this isn’t a temporary metric trend. For many SaaS companies, the math of modern software investing now demands it. One interesting comment that reflects the reality of the Rule of 60, especially for companies that have been funded with leverage debt is: “This isn’t a fad. The math of the deal breaks without it.” See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    26 min
  4. MAR 5

    A Tale of Two AI Futures - Citrini vs Citadel

    In this episode, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike go point-counterpoint on two high-profile articles making waves across Wall Street and Silicon Valley: Citrini's provocative February 2025 report, The 2028 Global Intelligence Crisis, and Citadel's rebuttal, The 2026 Global Intelligence Crisis. Dave and Ray unpack whether AI is truly triggering an unprecedented economic collapse or whether Citrini's dark simulation is, as one economist put it, just "a scary bedtime story." They dig into the SaaS private credit contagion theory, the historic parallels of labor displacement, the role of government regulation, and why this particular AI scare hits closer to home than any previous tech disruption. As always, the brothers bring the receipts, including nearly 20 sources and 20 hours of research - so you don't have to. Full Episode Summary: Dave Kellogg and Ray Rike open by framing the episode as a tale of two AI futures: Citrini's alarming speculative simulation versus Citadel's data-driven rebuttal. The Citrini Case (Bear Case): Published February 22nd, Citrini's report simulates a scenario in which rapid AI agent adoption triggers a global intelligence crisis by mid-2028 featuring 10.2% unemployment and a 38% drop in the S&P 500. The report argues AI is categorically different from prior technology waves because it displaces cognitive workers, who represent roughly 75% of U.S. labor income. Citrini further warns that SaaS, already accounting for 23% - 25% of the $3 trillion U.S. private credit market could become the chip in the windshield that cracks the broader financial system, with ripple effects into insurance and the broader economy. Dave and Ray note that Citrini's word choices ran 3.4-to-1 negative, and flag that the firm may hold short positions — characterizing the piece as well-crafted "bear porn." The Citadel Rebuttal (Bull Case): Two days later, Citadel, a $65B AUM asset manager with 35 years of credibility responded with a data-driven defense. Software engineering jobs are up since January 2024, AI CapEx is 2% of GDP and AI-adjacent commodity pricing is up 65%. Citadel argues AI follows historical S-curve adoption patterns, that "recursive capability doesn't equal recursive adoption," and that technology has always complemented rather than replaced labor - pointing to Microsoft Office as a historical analogue. Dave and Ray's Take: Both hosts find Citadel more credible, but acknowledge real displacement risks ahead. Their key insight: the reason this particular AI scare is generating 10x more fear than past labor disruptions (auto workers, telephone operators, elevator operators) is that this time it's us — white-collar knowledge workers facing displacement. Ray adds that blue-collar jobs (truck drivers, Uber drivers, warehouse workers) face equal or greater long-term risk from AI plus robotics, but those disruptions don't generate the same visceral fear in the media and investor class. Both agree the timing of adoption is the biggest unknown. Long-term, history favors the Citadel view. Short-term, the transition could be painful. On Government Response: Dave and Ray agree that political and regulatory intervention is inevitable if unemployment spikes materially, whether through labor protections, AI regulation, or fiscal stimulus. On Economists' Reactions: Real economists, including Noah Smith (Noahpinion) and Wharton's Jeremy Siegel, largely dismissed the Citrini piece, wi Siegel arguing that productivity gains generate new income and demand, Smith calling it a "scary bedtime story." Dave's takeaway for operators: let the Metrics Brothers do the 20 hours of reading so you don't have to. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    28 min
  5. MAR 2

    ICONIQ State of AI: Bi-Annual Snapshot Report

    In this episode, the Metrics Brothers, Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike dive deep into the ICONIQ State of AI: Bi-Annual Snapshot Report. Published in January 2026, this 44-page report summarizes insights from ~300 software executives on the front lines of building and scaling AI products. Ray and Dave explore a market transition from experimental model races to the challenge of building durable, economically sound products. Key discussions in this episode include: Differentiation Beyond the Model: Why 69% of builders are focusing on vertical AI applications and why 49% cite the application layer (UX and workflows) as their primary competitive edge over the underlying model. The Gross Margin "U-Curve": A look at the shifting economics of AI, where aggregated gross margins are projected to climb to 52% by 2026, even as inference and infrastructure costs remain significant hurdles. Pricing Evolution: The rise of outcome and usage-based pricing, with only 23% of companies still relying on seat-based models as customer demand shifts toward value-aligned monetization. AI as an Internal Force Multiplier: How R&D teams are leading internal adoption, with 83% of companies now measuring success through productivity gains and 59% through direct cost savings. Whether you are a CEO or CFO navigating AI product gross margin concerns or a GTM leader rethinking your proof-of-concept strategy, this episode provides the benchmarks you need to understand the "new phase of maturity" in the AI market. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    30 min
  6. FEB 18

    The SaaSpocalypse and the Avenir Future of SaaS Report

    In this extended episode, the Metrics Brothers tackle the "elephant in the room" - the SaaSpocalypse. With nearly $1 trillion in market value wiped out recently, Ray and Dave go beyond the stock market headlines to analyze the structural shifts hitting the industry. The duo breaks down the three primary drivers of the current market "carnage", including the AI Fear of Being Obsolete (FOBO), Regression to the Mean for SaaS stocks and Changing Valuation Methodologies, before diving into the newly released Aviner report, The Future of SaaS: A Fork in the Road. Using Aviner’s "Red Pill vs. Blue Pill" metaphor, they debate whether SaaS companies must fundamentally pivot to "agentic" systems or accept maturity and financialize by focusing on profitability. Covered in This Episode: The SaaSpocalypse Explained: Why the stock market is currently a "rugby scrum of information" and why stock price is a measure of future expectations rather than current health ServiceNow as a Bellwether: An analysis of how a "Rule of 56" company can beat expectations and still see a 30% stock drop in a single month. FOBO (Fear of Being Obsolete): How the "revenge of build vs. buy" and the collapsing cost of coding are demoting traditional SaaS apps to mere systems of record. The Aviner Report Breakdown: Part 1: The hard data on slowing revenue growth (cut from 40% to 20%) and the "aberration" of 2019–2021 multiples.Part 2: The binary choice between embracing AI "Systems of Context" or financializing for net income. The "Architect Strategy": Ray’s argument for a third path where SaaS companies coexist with AI by providing the governance and orchestration layer Buyer Sentiment vs. Market Narrative: Why 63% of software buyers believe existing vendors will be the beneficiaries of AI, contradicting the current "SaaS is dead" stock market trend. Key Metrics & Concepts Mentioned Rule of 40 vs. Rule of 60: How the standard for SaaS health is shiftingStock-Based Compensation (SBC): Why excluding this from profitability metrics is no longer passing the "financialization" testThe Three-Layer Taxonomy: Systems of Record, Systems of Engagement, and Systems of ContextMultiple Compression: The shift from 15x revenue multiples back to the historical 5x mean Resources Mentioned Report: The Future of SaaS: A Fork in the Road by Aviner Growth (Jan 2026).Book: The Reckoning by David Halberstam.Book: Profit Pools by Orit Gadiesh and James L. Gilbert. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    49 min
  7. FEB 11

    The Impact of AI on Labor Productivity and Growth

    In this episode of the Metrics Brothers podcast, Ray Rike and Dave Kellogg tackle one of the most critical yet misunderstood metrics in the U.S. economy: Labor Productivity. Amidst the rapid rise of Artificial Intelligence, the "Metrics Brothers" break down how productivity is officially measured by the Bureau of Labor Statistics and why historical technology booms, from SaaS to Cloud, haven't always moved productivity growth as much as expected. Key Takeaways: A deep dive into the ratio of economic output per hour worked, including what the BLS excludes (farms and government) and the nuances of white-collar labor tracking. Historical Trends: A comparison of the post-war boom versus the "SaaS era," exploring why the last 20 years have seen a 66% relative decrease in productivity growth despite trillions in tech investment.The AI Impact: Three potential scenarios for the future of work, from "exploding output" to "labor displacement," and why AI might fundamentally remake work in ways the Cloud never did.Global Benchmarking: How the U.S. stacks up against leaders like Ireland and Norway in output per hour. Why Listen? Whether you are a SaaS leader, investor, or white-collar professional, this episode provides a roadmap for staying on the "right side of the divide" in the upcoming AI-driven economic shift. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    25 min
  8. FEB 5

    Brand Measurement Metrics and Techniques

    Brand is one of the most powerful assets a company can build and one of the hardest to measure. In this episode of The Metrics Brothers, Dave “CAC” Kellogg, and Ray "Growth" Rike take on one of marketing’s most persistent challenges: how to measure brand in a world obsessed with direct attribution and near-term ROI. The conversation starts with what a brand really is, originating from literal marks of ownership and evolving into a promise of quality, trust, and differentiation. From there, Ray and Dave explore why strong brands create pricing power, customer loyalty, category leadership, and long-term defensibility, even if those benefits do not always show up cleanly in dashboards. They then break down practical ways to measure brand that align marketing and finance perspectives, including indirect valuation approaches such as brand value and goodwill frameworks, along with comparative metrics like direct and branded web traffic, share of voice, share of search, and inbound pipeline contribution. The episode also covers market research fundamentals including awareness, consideration, trial, and repurchase, and why dedicating a portion of your marketing budget to measurement is essential to sustaining brand investment. Finally, the Metrics Brothers dig into brand measurement techniques that work in practice, including self-reported attribution, lift experiments, and analyzing sales conversations to see how brand shows up late in the buying process, often at the exact moment a deal is won. If you have ever struggled to align brand investment with measurable outcomes, justify brand spend alongside demand generation, or connect long-term brand building to real business results, this episode provides a grounded, metrics-driven framework for doing exactly that. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    27 min
4.5
out of 5
62 Ratings

About

The Metrics Brothers is hosted by Dave "CAC" Kellogg and Ray "Growth" Rike. The Metrics Brothers provides unique insights, strategies, tactics, and metrics that are relevant to AI-Native software and SaaS companies. Each 25-30 minute episode will cover a topic critical to leading a B2B software company, and chock-full of practical advice that can be introduced and applied in most Native-AI, Agentic AI, and B2B software and SaaS companies.

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