We're Not Marketers

Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts
  • 5.0 (10)
  • Marketing
  • Weekly

B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either. What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers. The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door. Stop being overlooked and start listening. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

  1. 2d ago

    IC vs PMM leadership. Is the promotion today still worth it? (with Emily Pick)

    Emily Pick (Director of Product Marketing at Docebo) can do product marketing in her sleep. So when she earned the director title, she took it. Is it still worth it? She tells her side of the story, and if you're asking yourself the same? You might relate with what's she saying below. Notable quotes “I was promoted because I was a good IC, and because I was a good IC, I have opinions about what good looks like.” “Every yes is a no to something else you’ve already promised.” “Great launch, great launch. Here’s everything else that’s wrong that needs to be fixed.” “Can you shoulder the emotions of your team, and can you also have the boundaries that you don’t fully take it home with you every single night?” Thinking about the jump from IC to PMM leadership? Listen to someone who made it, who will tell you what it costs, and who still thinks her team is the best part of her day.Time Stamps 00:00 Welcome: Eric, Zach and Gab 00:49 Meet Emily Pick of Docebo, fresh off Highline 02:25 Gab asks: are product marketers actually marketers? 05:40 Player and coach: from IC to director 06:58 The pat on the back you lose as a manager 07:25 Why she left IC after six or seven years 08:39 Zach asks: is it worth it? 09:42 How your leaders make or break the leap 11:56 Zach's story: the manager who punished candor 12:45 Start every one-on-one with how you are 13:23 Can you shoulder your team's emotions? 14:55 A shout-out to the team 16:07 From 10 hours of meetings a week to 25 17:35 Her review note: say no more 18:00 Every yes is a no to something already promised 20:00 Why PMM means constant context switching 21:39 Gab asks: how do you make yourself easy to work with? 22:21 How to say no without starting a fight 24:25 The about-working-with-me doc 25:43 Bring a problem, bring a proposed solution 26:30 Keeping quality up as a player coach 28:37 Promoted for being a good IC 30:34 The pizza place night that taught her to delegate 32:15 Eric asks: is the director track worth it? 33:29 Could you ask your boss to demote you? 37:08 Bad decisions are what give you the experience 39:06 Zach asks about the weight of a layoff 39:38 A wildfire alert, mid-question 40:32 What helped her after being RIF'd 41:48 Build in public before you need it 44:30 Where to find Emily (and Hank the dog) Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    IC vs PMM leadership. Is the promotion today still worth it? (with Emily Pick)

  2. Oct 22

    Time to pivot? Fractional PMMs reveal.

    Three fractional PMMs (Eric, Gab and Zach), one uncomfortable question: when you pivot your offer, do you actually know what you're doing?In this next episode, Zach opens up about his two business pivots this year. Does he know what he's doing? That's what he asked himself. Nine months passed with ZERO sales. So he asked Eric and Gab the thing he'd been too embarrassed to ask anyone else. Both said "No, you don't know what you're doing." Who does? This is a Misfit episode, just the three of us. We get into how to tell a real signal from a bad month, why differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand, and Gab's four-letter sales audit (leads, appointments, proposals, sales) to run before you blow anything up. There's more we cover without going into too much detail here. If you're having a bad month (or year) as a fractional PMM, hop onto this audio therapy session and feel heard. Show Notes 00:00 Cold open: when your self-worth is tied to your business 00:16 Welcome: Zach, Eric (the Frankenmarketer) and Gab 00:37 A Misfit episode: when you pivot your offer, do you know what you're doing? 01:37 Eric says no: pivoting at 3, 6 or 12 months is too early to know 03:36 Gab: differentiation for its own sake doesn't create demand 03:57 Zach: self-worth, and figuring it out 50/50 as you go 05:07 Gab: be 80% distribution, 20% build 06:32 Eric: you'll know when the wheels come off the train 08:03 The highlight reel: what you see online isn't always what happened 09:51 Zach: is it a business or a hobby? 10:57 Eric: the confidence bucket 13:43 Gab's own pivot: from messaging to message testing 14:11 LAPS: leads, appointments, proposals, sales 15:40 The comparison trap and the "fountain of leads" 18:12 Gab on Dan Koe: darts blindfolded while the target moves 20:29 Six figures, but are you happy? 22:37 Repositioning takes time: "I still don't know what you do" 24:31 Zach: not a fit isn't an indictment 25:27 Closing thoughts. Eric: find people who fill your cup 26:23 Gab: follow the demand. Iteration vs. a hard pivot 29:20 Zach: asking for help isn't being less than 30:48 The Confident Mind: claim your first victory, then audit your feed 33:14 Gab: zoom out, it's a game of longevity 34:26 Zach: chess is a game of patience Books to read The Courage to Be Disliked, Ichiro Kishimi and Fumitake Koga: https://www.betterreading.com.au/book/the-courage-to-be-disliked/ The Confident Mind, Dr. Nate Zinsser: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/441864/the-confident-mind-by-zinsser-nathaniel/9781529159028 Mentioned in the episode Daniel Priestley (LAPS, per Gab): https://www.danielpriestley.com Dan Koe: https://thedankoe.com Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    Time to pivot? Fractional PMMs reveal.

  3. Oct 8

    They're Paying $400K for a Job Product Marketers Already Do, w/ Elliott Rayner

    Companies are posting head of storytelling roles at around $400K a year, and Elliott Rayner (Head of Storytelling at OWOW Agency and Creator of The Story Cohort) has the receipts: 25 of those job descriptions, pulled apart in his State of Storytelling 2026 report. His read is that it is a chief product marketing officer under a different name. The skill set they are asking for is a product marketing director's skill set. So why is nobody in product marketing putting their hand up?In this episode, he breaks down his three-question alignment he's run at more than 100 companies, and why the average score is just 19% across orgs. Plus the three chemicals that decide whether a story sells, and why credibility is where most product stories fall apart. Listen now.Show Notes 00:00 Welcome to season six00:19 Introducing Elliott Rayner01:29 Are product marketers actually marketers03:01 The State of Storytelling report and the $400K roles05:19 Owning the narrative is not the same as telling stories07:48 Seven reporting lines across 25 roles08:59 Storytelling is the skill, narrative is what you own10:21 Reason one: products got too complex to explain11:03 Reason two: execution has become cheap, meaning has not13:17 Storytelling is a science, not a talent you are born with14:33 Everyone wants to be better at it, nobody studies it15:54 The three questions every product narrative answers16:14 Only 19% alignment across more than 100 companies17:17 Aristotle's triangle: logic, emotion, credibility18:59 Career paths and where this role fits21:09 Connecting the story to call recordings and CRM data24:37 Where the role sits on the org chart26:02 Nobody hands you $400K without a KPI28:23 Joseph Campbell's story circle29:03 Three chemicals that decide whether a story sells32:07 The gobsmacked problem: rich language now reads as AI34:34 F**k, marry, kill: Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter37:33 The Story Engine and why we get addicted to stories38:21 Where to find Elliott Books and Courses to See 1. The Story Engine by Elliott Rayner, where the addiction-to-stories idea comes from. https://maven.com/productstorytelling/o/3c5611 2. The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell, the story circle Elliott builds on. https://www.jcf.org/learn/joseph-campbell-heros-journey Additional Sources to Explore 1. Product Narratives, Elliott's site and home of the State of Storytelling report. https://productnarratives.com 2. The Product Storytelling Cohort on Maven. Next one runs November 16 to December 13, 2026. https://maven.com/productstorytelling/storytellingcohort 3. Marketing Examples, the site of Harry Dry, who taught Eric "but and so." https://marketingexamples.com Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    They're Paying $400K for a Job Product Marketers Already Do, w/ Elliott Rayner

  4. Oct 1

    Death to Sameness w/ Nina Churchill

    Nina Churchill quit her corporate PMM job effective immediately. She then wrote a series of posts on LinkedIn that reached about half a million people. She's a fellow product marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts, where she helps B2B companies stop sounding like everyone else. We get into the post, the burnout and the 11 weeks of FMLA before it, and why we put up with behavior at work that we'd call abuse at home. Then the useful stuff. Why your manager is the top reason you stay or go. The questions to ask a hiring manager before you take the job. And oh yeah, by the way? She's also coming to Death to Marketing in October. Timestamps 00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves 00:29 Meet Nina Churchill, recovering performance marketer and founder of Fresh View Concepts 01:27 Nina's coming to Death to Marketing (and Saugatuck) 02:06 Gab's question: are product marketers ultimately marketers? 03:42 The LinkedIn post that made Eric want to run through a wall 04:18 A new manager, a burnout, and 11 weeks of FMLA 06:44 "Effective immediately" 07:06 Half a million people and a flood of DMs 07:46 Why do we accept at work what we'd call abuse at home? 10:32 Any backlash? "I can't like this, but I respect it" 11:09 "Your LinkedIn is your LinkedIn" 12:25 Jumping without a parachute: therapy, ADHD, and deleting the apps 15:34 Blood pressure, cortisol, and life after quitting 17:59 Boundaries: bad at them, or never practiced? 18:59 Fresh View Concepts, 2011, and some questionable age math 19:32 Running her business differently this time around 20:20 "Oh, you look stable" 21:15 Productive in two hours, not eight 23:06 The moment she decided she was the boss 23:29 The agency that always had her back 25:10 From bartending to product marketing in HR tech 26:07 How much your manager really matters 27:59 Interview the hiring manager too 30:38 The coworker who gave her name to recruiters 32:04 Why she signed up for Death to Marketing 34:50 Do we need to hide the booze? Mocktails for everybody 35:58 Death to sameness 37:31 Payroll, and why nobody trusts your AI 39:40 Where to find Nina: the Sameness Report and Whirl Additional sources 1. Fresh View Concepts, Nina's positioning consultancy https://freshviewconcepts.com 2. Whirl, Nina's AI mock interview tool (free if you were recently laid off) https://whirlinterview.com 3. Nina Churchill on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/ninachurchill/ 4. Nina's writing at 3Sixty Insights https://3sixtyinsights.com/author/ninachurchill/ 5. PostHog, Nina's example of a brand that's actually different https://posthog.com 6. Death to Marketing, October 2026 https://www.death-to-marketing.com Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    Death to Sameness w/ Nina Churchill

  5. Sep 24

    Your CEO Just Handed You an Event. Now What? w/ Maggie Arai

    Your CEO just said you're hosting an event. You've never run one. Now what? Maggie Arai is the Founder of IRL Studios, where she designs in-person events for online brands. She's run more than 70 of them. She's also the person keeping Death to Marketing, our own conference, out of a ballroom with fluorescent lighting. We asked her what a product marketer needs to know before their first event lands on their desk. Where the budget quietly disappears (food and bev, every time). Why every event needs a 10 to 15% contingency line. And her take on open networking (heads up: not the answer none of us expected). She also tells us, on the record, where we already messed up planning our own event. If you've been handed an event with no budget, no team, and a note to "do something like that happy hour," start here.What and who was mentioned in today's episodeIRL Studios, Maggie's company: https://irlstudios.ca Maggie Arai on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maggie-arai/ Above the Fold: https://www.spiralyze.com/abovethefold Highline by UserEvidence: https://userevidence.com/highline/ Toronto Tech Week: https://www.torontotechweek.com/ Death to Marketing: https://www.death-to-marketing.comIn this episode 00:00 Welcome, and the hosts introduce themselves 00:29 Meet Maggie Arai, Founder of IRL Studios and our event planner 01:31 Why would anyone sign up to run something this insane? 02:18 Nobody wants another ballroom with fluorescent lighting 03:26 What scared her about taking on her first B2B event 04:29 Event number 71, and still intimidated 05:44 You don't have to be a product marketer to have imposter syndrome 06:01 Are the rules different for B2B and consumer events? 09:21 Her first real exposure to a room full of product marketers 11:04 The IRL Studios thesis: getting online people into one room 13:31 Zach wants his lawyer in a suit 14:19 Be honest: where did we mess up? 14:50 The budget line nobody scoped: venue visits 16:32 Get more detailed in your budget than you think you need 17:57 Why every event budget needs a 10 to 15% contingency line 18:58 Your CEO says you're hosting an event. What catches you off guard? 19:23 Food and bev will eat your budget 21:13 Skydiving, whitewater rafting, and the insurance question 22:46 Why we killed the roast, and what replaced it 26:23 How Maggie designs events people actually want to attend 27:57 Easy to host an event, hard to host one that moves the needle 28:45 Why Death to Marketing ends with a field trip 30:23 The one event practice that has to die 31:05 Open networking has to die 33:18 The invisible hierarchy in every networking room 36:16 Drink tickets are not a designed experience 37:22 Toronto Tech Week: two DJs and nowhere to talk 38:27 Go see the room for yourself 39:20 Where to find Maggie Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    Your CEO Just Handed You an Event. Now What? w/ Maggie Arai

  6. Sep 17

    We Spent Three Years Hiding From Dave Gerhardt at His Own Event

    Eric Holland and Gab Bujold recorded this one on a deck in Stowe, Vermont, in the middle of Drive, with a cardboard cutout of Zach standing in for the third host. It is the first We're Not Marketers episode made in person, and it is mostly about why the three of them keep showing up to the same conference in fake mustaches. The costumes started as a joke about not being allowed into a marketing event by a podcast called We're Not Marketers. Three years later the bit has produced a real relationship with Dave Gerhardt, a running gag the check-in desk now expects, and enough conviction to go build their own event. Show Notes00:00 Cold open at Drive, and the first We're Not Marketers recorded in person 00:25 Why Zach is on tape as a cardboard cutout 01:02 Why three product marketers keep coming back to the same Vermont conference 01:28 The disguise started as a joke about not being let into a marketing event 02:18 How Drive turned into a family vacation 03:12 Gab's four hour drive from Quebec City with a six month old and a corgi 05:03 Why not San Francisco, and why not Vegas 06:02 Why are we dressing like a bunch of assholes 06:29 The real first reason for the costumes: hiding from Dave 07:03 The clumsy first year, and feeling like a misfit in the room 08:19 Dave Gerhardt walks up: Hey, guy with the hair 11:27 Why the costume works, and the comment from the check-in desk 12:18 Where Zach actually is, and why he still got more selfies than either host 13:33 Why product marketers specifically need to get uncomfortable 13:44 Gab on product marketers being scared to ask for budget 15:22 The survey that got over 10,000 visits, and what belongs on a resume now 16:05 Where the name Mojo came from 17:57 The difference between fear and expecting fear 19:14 Death to Marketing, six weeks before a wedding 20:14 Three guys, no private equity, one event 23:34 Zach's cutout blows over, and Brendan Hufford checks in 24:48 Community with a lowercase c 27:34 What happens when a 200 person event becomes 400 28:16 The boat tour, and what they took for Lake Michigan 29:39 LaShay Lewis, and the line that stuck 30:01 The pain of change is no longer worse than the pain of staying the same 31:16 Go shake hands, go touch grass Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    We Spent Three Years Hiding From Dave Gerhardt at His Own Event

  7. Sep 10

    Why Is Every Product Marketer Suddenly Being Asked to Make Video? w/ Natalie Taylor

    Video landed on every marketer's plate this year. Nobody added headcount for it, and nobody explained how to actually get one made. Natalie Taylor runs marketing at Capsule, where enterprise teams like HubSpot, ServiceNow and Instacart build on-brand video without going through a creative team, and she has spent two years watching product marketers get stuck in the same queue. Her fix runs against the standard playbook. Stop treating the launch video as the last asset. Make it first, because it is the most complex format you own, and once it is right the copy, the visuals and the email GIFs all fall out of it. She also walks through what an agentic video skill actually does, step by step, and says the quiet part out loud about her own category: most AI product demos are not showing you real output. Then the whole thing detours into a pizza tier list that somehow lands the sharpest AI argument in the episode. SHOW NOTES 00:00 Cold open and host introductions 00:41 Natalie joins, and admits she has never held the title of product marketer 01:56 The question the show exists for: are product marketers actually marketers? 02:18 Why marketing labels never made sense to her 03:20 "You're a marketer if you're doing marketing" 03:24 The one exception: why demand gen sits in its own bucket 05:19 The Tuesday afternoon Slack message that says "let's do some product videos" 05:54 Everyone is being asked to make video, job description or not 07:36 The old workflow: ask the creative team, join the queue, wait 08:25 Fully agentic video, without opening an editing tool 09:23 Eric asks whether video is back in fashion or just newly possible 10:17 What Twitter's feed of launch videos says about the format 11:14 Capsule starts with the launch video instead of ending with it 12:58 Anthropic as the model for tier-two launches 14:01 Capacity versus tooling when you are one person 15:19 Video skills, walked through with a Zendesk example 16:36 Why most AI video tools are one shot, and why this one hands you a project 18:39 What a PMM should actually go learn about video 19:52 You should not need to be an expert to make something good 20:43 Gab on developing taste 21:03 The agentic promise versus the learning curve nobody mentions 23:31 Zach on feeling like an idiot yelling into a chatbot 24:07 Smoke and mirrors, and how Natalie is launching against the hype 25:05 The pizza tier list begins 27:34 "An AI agent won't be able to do that for you" 30:03 Zach imagines Natalie as a MasterChef judge 31:03 Pizza is a canvas, and so is AI 33:17 The pizza industry secret, and the oven she and her husband built 35:07 Chicago, New York, or New Haven 35:53 Where to find Natalie SOURCES Capsule, the video platform Natalie runs marketing for: https://capsule.video Modern Pizza Products, the oven she co-founded: https://www.modernpizzaproducts.com Emily Kramer's fuel and engine framework: https://newsletter.mkt1.co/p/fuel-engine Natalie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nataliecstaylor/ Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    Why Is Every Product Marketer Suddenly Being Asked to Make Video? w/ Natalie Taylor

  8. Sep 3

    PMA Offered Us $200. We Said "No Deal", and Built Our Own Event

    This is the Death to Marketing episode. Zach, Eric and Gab take stock of what it has actually cost to build a conference from nothing: the $200 sponsorship offer that set the whole thing in motion, the $90,000 in sponsors they have since closed, the 48 people who have bought tickets, and the friend who texted to say he wasn't coming. What it does to you when the success of your business becomes the measure of you as a person, why selling tickets turned out to be harder than selling sponsors, and the lesson none of them expected to learn about asking for help. Death to Marketing is October 11 in Holland, Michigan. *Recorded August 10, 2026. Show Notes (00:00) Why the branding scared people off — on purpose(00:39) "It's not an event for everybody"(01:46) Neither of them had ever run an event(02:58) The $200 offer that started all of this(03:23) From a $200 reimbursement to $90,000 in sponsors(04:30) The math that made no sense(05:04) The two events that set the bar(06:46) Are conferences a crutch for the PMM community?(10:28) Enough about PMA(11:02) The real number, said out loud(11:05) "48 people we have to pay to have a good time"(12:24) Someone bought a ticket from Scotland(12:55) What turned out to be easier than expected(13:11) The moment it stopped being a bit and became a real event(14:12) "This is the rollercoaster we're going to be taking"(15:22) Hiring a partner who pushes back on you(16:37) What Eric took on personally(20:05) Why planning it made it easier to say no to sponsors(20:36) Running an event like a product launch(22:05) How this compares to every sales kickoff they've sat through(23:05) The one thing no other event is doing(25:21) The hard stuff starts here(25:49) When your business becomes your identity(26:54) The text from a friend who wasn't coming(27:37) "An event run by these three losers"(29:00) "I want this to be the only event we ever throw"(29:59) Turtle pace: the grind of selling tickets(30:55) The discipline of narrowing the audience mid-sale(34:38) The delegation problem(36:09) "One of the heaviest things you'll ever do"(37:59) Keep, stop, do over(38:47) Keep: the partner(41:42) Do over: the waitlist(43:36) Do over: invite-only?(43:58) The coin flip nobody can call(45:23) If they do it again, it might be a stage play(48:31) The ask, without the false urgency Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

    PMA Offered Us $200. We Said "No Deal", and Built Our Own Event
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About

B2B product marketers in SaaS businesses are feeling misunderstood. Struggling to position what they do internally. Colleagues not having one clear idea what they do either. What if there was a better way? This is We're Not Marketers. The new podcast for SaaSy B2B product marketers who want CEO buy-in on what they do. Get the weekly masterclass without the inflated tuition and entry-level requirements, just to get your foot in the door. Stop being overlooked and start listening. Hosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Information

  • Creator
    Gabriel Bujold, Eric Holland, Zach Roberts
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    83
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 - We're Not Marketers
  • Show Website
    We're Not Marketers

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