Melanie Cave speaks with Dr. Jared Neusch about the hard parts of the Moses story—the plagues, the death of the Egyptian firstborn, and the parting of the sea resulting in the death of the Egyptian army—and how to approach these passages with children and congregations, without flattening its tension. Jared explains why he starts with Jesus as the clearest revelation of God, then works back into the Old Testament with that lens in place. They also unpack how Passover foreshadows Jesus, why modern readers get stuck on historicity, and how to talk with kids honestly about troubling Bible stories without giving them a shallow or deceptive faith. Key topics In this episode, Jared shares how his view of God changed through rethinking the cross, especially moving away from a penal substitution framework and toward the cross as revelation of God’s love and humanity’s violence. Melanie and Jared discuss why Exodus still grips Christian imagination, since it is a foundational liberation story that the New Testament keeps echoing. They wrestle with the hardest part of Exodus for modern readers—the divine violence, especially the death of the firstborn and the drowning of the Egyptian army. Jared argues that Jesus must be the interpretive starting point, not a later add-on, if we want to read Exodus faithfully. They explore several ways Christians try to make sense of these texts, including progressive revelation, allegory, genre awareness, and ancient war rhetoric. Melanie raises the concern that many modern readers demand historical precision in a way ancient storytelling did not always intend. Jared explains why he thinks it is important not to smooth over the text’s brutality, especially when teaching children. They discuss how to avoid setting kids up for future deconstruction by giving them overly neat answers too early. Jared describes a simple child-friendly approach: ask whether a story sounds like Jesus, and if not, use Jesus as the lens for interpretation. They connect Passover to Jesus through images of blood, deliverance, crossing waters, the defeat of evil, and Moses as a partial Christ figure. Melanie and Jared reflect on how the story of deliverance still requires participation—the Israelites have to walk through the sea, just as Christians still participate in discipleship. They close by contrasting the instinct to want God to destroy enemies with Jesus’ way of enemy-love, suffering, and radical inclusion. Chapters 00:00 – Introducing the challenge of Exodus violence for adults and children 01:04 – Jared’s background and how he came to peacemaking and enemy love 02:14 – Rethinking the cross as the turning point in theology 03:38 – The Sermon on the Mount and the cross as the same way of life 04:53 – Why the Exodus story still matters in Christian imagination 05:57 – Exodus as a critical part of the biblical story of deliverance 08:03 – Why Exodus becomes harder when Jesus is the interpretive center 09:38 – The problem of Pharaoh’s oppression and God’s judgment on Egypt 11:15 – Divine hardening and the drowning of the Egyptian army 12:35 – Why the violence in Exodus clashes with the cross 14:31 – Owning what the text actually says instead of smoothing it over 16:43 – Starting with Christ rather than building theology elsewhere first 19:13 – Scripture as a journey of learning what God is like 21:11 – Allegorical readings and the church fathers 23:12 – Why modern readers struggle with story, fact, and historical proof 24:51 – Genre, ancient context, and war rhetoric 28:10 – Why divine command theory does not persuade Jared 29:04 – Bringing the question back to children and the Passover story 30:32 – Why some children will notice the moral problem immediately 32:01 – Not pretending troubling stories are harmless 34:47 – Telling kids “I don’t know” and leaving room for mystery 36:47 – Passover as a foreshadowing of Jesus 38:17 – Symbols in blood, baptism, and the defeat of evil 41:08 – Moses as insider and outsider, like a Christ figure 42:31 – Foreshadowing, motifs, and narrative echoes across Scripture 43:13 – Deliverance that still requires participation 44:42 – Wanting God to fight our enemies, and Jesus flipping the script 46:41 – Christian nationalism and the instinct to put God on our side 48:22 – The answer is reading Jesus and testing every ethic by his life 51:32 – Teaching Exodus in conversation with Jesus, not in isolation 52:53 – A simple child-friendly method: “Does that sound like God to you?” 55:44 – The danger of imagining Jesus has an angry father 56:54 – How the cross shapes the way people read the Old Testament 58:41 – A shorter account of a different reading of the cross 59:21 – Penal substitution versus the cross as human violence and divine revelation 62:43 – Moses as a partial, imperfect foretaste of Christ 64:21 – Wrapping up the wrestling and the need to keep asking questions 65:08 – Jared’s children’s books and why they spark real conversations Notable quotes “How do we know what God is like? Jesus.” “On the cross, it is not primarily appeasing God, it is revealing God.” “If I pretend it isn’t there, I’m setting them up to undo it later.” Key frameworks Jesus as the interpretive center for all Scripture Progressive revelation Allegorical reading Ancient war rhetoric and genre awareness The cross as revelation rather than appeasement Passover as pattern and foreshadowing Show Notes
