The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics

Kaumudi Goda

How do today's leaders navigate complex ethical dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and driving results? Welcome to The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics, a podcast exploring the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture. Join host Kaumudi Goda as she engages visionary executives, thought leaders, and changemakers in candid conversations about integrity and purpose-driven leadership. You’ll hear perspectives from diverse fields, including business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts. What guiding principles shape a leader’s approach to ethical challenges?How can we foster ethical cultures amid competing priorities?Can ethics and profit coexist? Tune in as we tackle these compelling questions and examine leadership case studies from the latest headlines.

  1. Jul 1

    Human Conversation with Bob Sheard

    Get To Know Our Guest: Bob Sheard Bob Sheard is a leading brand strategist and practitioner, and the author of The Brand New Future: How Brands Can Save the World (LID Publishing), a book shortlisted for the Business Book Awards that sets out a practical roadmap for building successful brands that contribute to a more just and regenerative world.  As the founder of the brand design agency FreshBritain, Bob has designed more than 200 global brands across his career, working with names such as Nike, Levi's, Dr. Martens, Arc'teryx, and New Balance. His approach is defined by going deep to find a brand's truth and the results speak for themselves: FreshBritain helped reposition Dr. Martens around "rebellious self-expression," guiding the brand from €90 million in turnover, amid a double-digit decline, to a €3.5 billion flotation in eleven years. Today, Bob is widely recognized as one of the most influential voices on what brands are for and what they owe the world. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career. A brand strategist, C suite advisor, founder, sustainability advocate, author, educator, mentor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that connects all of this for you? What was the driving force behind all that you do?BOB: The red thread is opportunism, just seeing where I think I can add value and going there. Others would say it's a heavy dose of ADHD, continuously moving on to the next thing. I'd say sort of it's really the product of a restless mind, ambition. It's part restless mind.BOB: For someone who used to work on a market stall in Bradford, it's an exciting prospect to see where that kind of thinking and that the way my brain works and see where that will take me. so that and it has taken me into education, into boardrooms, into publishers and yeah, just that's the red thread really.KG: At some point you must have made a conscious decision that, well, I'm going to do this. I'm going to pursue the curiosity of my mind. When did that happen?BOB: I went to a school, comprehensive school in Halifax, West Yorkshire, which has since been closed down and I was studying for my A levels. I did my A levels and I did four and I did them in economics art, general studies and history and I got three Es, so just about scrape to pass and then one A. And that A along with another guy at the school was the first A our school had ever got at A level. And they were beaming that the school had managed to get this A. And so at that point I realised maybe there's a brain inside there somehow that can, once I know where the goalposts are, I can figure out a way.BOB: Retook my A levels, so I got sufficient N grades to get to the London College of Fashion. And it was a very interesting conversation to go onto the building site to tell the guys I'd got entry into the London College of Fashion, because I kept that secret. So was at that point you kind of realize, I've got the ability to find a way. So then I realized, I didn't quite know, but it's a continuous journey, isn't it? It's just trying to figure out that sometimes your thinking thoughts are the people don't have and they add value.KG: I've always wondered, you're a branding expert, and I always wonder what that does to a child's mind to be categorized or branded, if you'll permit, that they are a certain way, that they should follow a certain path. And for that child to break those shackles and then decide to be creative and pursue and make up a path as they go along?BOB: You've got these three brothers who went to this local primary school, couldn't speak a word of Indian English, didn't have a great time in the industrial North, but managed to find a way to create the most amazing careers and what really struck me was I went to Chicago and the three brothers were there and all their kids were there but for the first time. I said, the really interesting powerful thing is the harvest of your mother's and father's sacrifice in being first generation. I just think that's such a powerful argument for immigration that actually there is a dynamic dynamo type power in a second generation immigrant to not want their parents life to be a sacrifice in vain and therefore they go a bit further, a bit faster to make their lives worthy of the sacrifice of their parents. And so I just don't think anyone makes the case, the economic case for that enough.KG: You're a futurist and you talk about how countries have brands, and those brands can change a people, a cultural ethos of the future itself of the entire planet. When I think about this vision, it comes across to me as very humanist, very universal, a kind and compassionate one. In that context, I was curious about the theme of this podcast being ethics and integrity, what do these terms mean to you?BOB: I think with ethics, that's kind of our moral compass. That's guiding principles and protocols of our life. And integrity is how we deploy our behavior to meet that compass. So that's our moral codes, if you like. So moral compass, ethics, integrity is moral code.BOB: Ethics for me is all about saying what you're going to do and do what you're going to say. There's a level of authenticity and intent around it. Integrity is being transparent, open and honest when you don't match your ethics. It's all about authenticity. It's all about being transparent and open. I think true integrity is like acknowledging we're all human at the end of the day. We all have frailties, vulnerabilities, fragilities, and sometimes you don't match your ethical code. And I suppose being honest and authentic about when you've not met your own standards is where integrity lives.KG: Perhaps an organization or leader may need to make a decision one way, and when it doesn't feel like it's aligned. With ethics, stated ethics, then what you're saying is integrity would help you understand that transparency about that decision, that call between the push and pull between two values or two types of stakeholders, integrity would guide you in being transparent about it. And that's that's the way to manage that kind of complexity.BOB: It's one of the biggest problems in politics right now. The way we've designed politics means that in terms of leadership, they're always seeking perfection. And so it's very, very, very, very difficult for them to make a mistake and admit to the mistake or be inconsistent, but then admit to the inconsistency because they have to present some kind of political perfection. And what they forget is that we don't, we don't love perfection, we respect it, but we don't really love it.BOB: Actually if they just were honest and had integrity about the gap that exists between their moral code and their moral compass, then we're more likely to believe them and more likely to follow them.KG: You've had such a fascinating career. one of the things that holds my attention, I'd love to hear more about your adventures, advising leaders doing spectacular things and creating whole new things that didn't exist before, that changed the course of a country, of a brand, of the story of a particular product in all of these experiences, was there a time when you personally felt challenged by an ethical dilemma? What was the lesson you learned so that we can learn along with you?BOB: For the ethical dilemma, I'm just a little guy in a room asking for my fees, which were agreed, which are basically a rounding error, you know, on a sovereign wealth fund and on a private equity fund. It's just nuts. And I was faced with having to cut costs and we're having to say, we've got to now, look at our headroom and how do we cut costs? Well, in a business like mine, you've got your offices and you've got your people.BOB: I went to a party that night and it was a 54th birthday party and I met a guy there that used to work for me. He runs brands and everything and he's a bit of a name. He just said, you know what, the three years I worked for you were the best three years of my career and your team are amazing, you've got the best team I've ever worked with.BOB: It was a really poignant moment because I was like, I'm having to decide to make these cuts and the easy thing to do is first, know, last in first out kind of thing. And I just thought, I'm not gonna do that. I'm just gonna do everything I can do, whether it's bringing in my own personal money to keep the team together and do what we have to do to keep our team together, to keep our talent together. Cause at the end of the day, without them, we've got nothing. We've got a history, we've got a heritage, but it's without the team, without the people. We don't have anything. And I'm not going to let the bad decisions, I'm being generous there, the bad decisions of my clients forced me to make bad decisions with regard to my people.KG: As a business leader, has this informed your radar for bad clients? Are you now able to discern faster red flags and say, these are the kinds of people I won't work with?BOB: I'm a people pleaser. I don't necessarily see what I should see straight away. The process of having a conversation and dialogue and the intent to pay means everything. And the fact we talk, you know, once a month about it and there's been no angst, there's been no anger. It's just them having to deal with it the way they have to deal with it and we have to deal with it the way we have to deal with it. But we've had continuing conversations. The worst thing that can happen is when, which happened with the fund, they just stop email, they stop being in touch and you're left in a vacuum of knowledge and a vacuum of conversation and you just feel not loved. You feel abused and not loved.BOB: Whereas with the guys in New York, I still felt valued by them even though they couldn't pay me the value of my work in the way I wanted to, but I will get the money. And if it takes another three years, we'll still have, we'll get it eventually, but we'll still have maintained really stron

    Human Conversation with Bob Sheard

  2. Jun 2

    Human Conversation with Martin Koek

    Get To Know Our Guest:Martin Koek Martin Koek studied law at the university of Leiden. In 1991 he obtained his master’s degree in tax law. In the same year he started his career as tax advisor with Arthur Andersen. Within Arthur Andersen and later Deloitte he climbed the ranks and in 2002 he became responsible for the corporate income tax compliance practices in the Netherlands. In 2013 Martin relocated to Deloitte in Hyderabad (India) where he managed the compliance practices for Deloitte Netherlands and Deloitte United Kingdom. In 2017 he returned to Deloitte in The Netherlands taking up his role in the Netherlands compliance practice. After his career as tax advisor in 2022, Martin decided to take a break from professional life and focus more on his private life and his hobbies reading and travelling. In 2025 he started his coaching education that he finished in 2026. Currently he is starting up his coaching practice, mainly focusing on career coaching.   HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an incredible international career as a corporate leader, advisor, mentor, just to name a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of this together for you? I wanted to know what's the driving force behind all that you do?MARTIN: One thing is that I like to solve puzzles and find my way or other people's way out of difficult situations. And I like to help people and perhaps not in the altruistic way, but at least in a professional way.MARTIN: In the beginning of my career, it was about helping clients manage their tax burden. Later on, it became also mentoring of younger colleagues. It became the development of the organization as a whole. And then it's rather difficult to find the right threat but it always focused around helping people solving problems or helping organizations solving problems.KG: Knowing that you have a compliance ethics taxation background yourself, what are the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?MARTIN: I think ethics and integrity are the greatest assets that a leader can have. And the difficulty is how to apply those things in the real everyday life of a leader.MARTIN: As a starting leader, where I realized at one time that I was focusing way too much on reliability and responsibility. And I realized that in my vacation, where I received lots of telephone calls from team members who were trying to solve problems but didn't think that they have the authority themselves to solve the problem. So they always came back to me. I sat down with a consultant to make a SWOT analysis and from that SWOT analysis an action plan had to follow. Okay this is the direction that we are taking and the necessary steps that we had to take the practical steps to make that change. We came up with the solution that we should involve the entire team.MARTIN: The action plan that the team made was the same as the plan I made with the consultant. But the action steps that we had to take were much more complete than I had made together with the consultant. So what I learned from that exercise is that by being transparent and honest about the future of the team. The team was actually thinking about solutions and action steps to take together with me. But it made the team less reliable from me. And it also created a much more open atmosphere where everybody could share their ideas, could share their doubts, their concerns. And we solved everything together.KG: What was it do you think that helped the team make that change when you recommended it?MARTIN: Involving the team and knowing that their views and their recommendations are also appreciated and that I by myself also do not know anything creates an atmosphere that we really we're really going together to make the change to make everything happen.KG: In Asia, where I know some of the talent you worked with was, it is very hierarchical. So did you face any resistance or hurdles from others in the environment? who are used to hierarchy and couldn't understand why you're going against the grain and trying to do something different.MARTIN: I learned quite soon that although the society and also lot of corporations in Asia are hierarchical, hierarchy is very important in those countries and those organizations, people hate it. When I came in and started asking input from the team and involving them in the day to day basis, other than just doing their regular job, but also give them an insight in why we were doing things and that we also needed to make changes. They were all quite happy to give me their input.MARTIN: I've learned that integrity from a leader leads also to integrity from the team. and the same for ethics. If you are an ethical leader, you also get ethical team members. And there are always exceptions, but the broader line is that it is a vice versa thing. Ethical leaders lead to ethical teams. Integrity leads to integrity.KG: Is there a need that you feel comfortable sharing so we can learn from what lessons you took away from it? I'm assuming you're referring to mistakes that help you clarify and fine tune what your ethics are, what your values are.MARTIN: In the evaluation process, there's nothing easier than doing an evaluation conversation with a good performer. You always have a nice open atmosphere. But then you have the conversation with the bad performer. And since most leaders are nice people, or at least want to be perceived as a nice person, the evaluation conversations with bad performers are often of a very bad quality.MARTIN: The evaluator wants to soften the blow and the evaluator is certainly not telling the bad performer that the performance is really bad. We try to hide it a little bit and say this is not the end of the world. If you do this and this you can perform better. But what we are actually doing is hiding the message, leave the bad performer hanging, leaving the bad performer with a feeling of uncertainty. So along the way, I've learned that it is much better to not soften the blow and just tell at the beginning of the conversation, your performance is not up to standards.MARTIN: By listening, you can also determine, okay, there is room for growth. And when you listen to the needs of the other person and really help the person taking the next step, the conversation is suddenly not closed and tense anymore, but it's open and you're trying to build on something. And I think that's also a part of ethics. It's morally wrong to soften the blow. It's ethically right to start with the bad message, but also being open to the input of the person in front.KG: What are some of the real world ethical problems that are most relevant to business leaders today? What are your observations around that?MARTIN: I want to focus on one thing. And it has again to do with the people aspect of business. We started measuring a lot of things like output. We started measuring the number of hours spent on the project compared with the projected number. We started modelling a lot, standardising a lot. And although I am the first to recognize that modelling and that standardization and measuring output brought us a lot, it also harms us. And I feel that we focus too much on the standardized models. And we focus too much on output and we focus too little on the uniqueness that every employee brings to the organization.KG: How can we begin to persuade organizations? What's the business case for it?MARTIN: If we listen more to each other about what works on the models and what doesn't work on the models, we eventually get to a situation that the models are not set in stone anymore. Because quite often we design something and that works, but circumstances change. So if circumstances change, you should also redesign the model and then people feel much more at home.KG: There is a Martin Luther King quote that I recently came across, Martin, that I think is appropriate. He advises that “Faith is about taking the first step, even if the staircase is not clear to you yet.”MARTIN: In my time in Asia, we also designed. We implemented it. We think it's a success. But every three months, the project team is coming together and gets input from the team on is it still working or do we need to tweak so that this is not all set in stone. And in that way it becomes much more durable to keep working in that way because everybody feels hurt and when change is needed we make the change.KG: What is your advice to professionals on how to build these cultures of integrity in their teams and organizations as they grapple with competing priorities?MARTIN: First, as a team you have to do is make sure that everybody is included. And that means that you must have open communication lines where people really listen and understand each other's expectations and needs and wishes. And if there is a clear understanding of expectations and wishes, especially on things that work very well but also on things that do not work, then there is an understanding of what needs to change and what can stay the same. And it's also openness leads to openness.MARTIN: Secondly, the team needs to make sure that everybody has a clear understanding of their roles and responsibilities and actually pick up their roles and responsibilities. And that it is clear that everybody knows what they are doing and also monitor that everybody is picking up their roles and responsibilities. Because they understand a disbalance will occur when someone is not picking up their respective roles and responsibilities.MARTIN: Lastly, there should be a balance in the give and take. So by saying that, mean that employees give their time and capabilities to the employer and they want to have something in return, which is basically a salary and some vacation date. Employers may want from time to time, have an increase in productivity because it's a busy season. And as long as there is some reward for the employees, it's okay.MARTIN: If everybody is included, everybody feels included, if everybody takes up their roles and

    Human Conversation with Martin Koek

  3. May 4

    Human Conversation with Susan Caesar

    Get To Know Our Guest:Susan Caesar Susan Caesar is a strategist, storyteller, and systems leader working at the intersection of artificial intelligence, human development, and the living world. She serves as the Director of Artificial Intelligence at the International Coaching Federation (ICF), where she leads the responsible integration of AI across a global community of more than 60,000 coaches. Susan guides ICF’s AI strategy for 2026 and beyond, ensuring that emerging technologies strengthen human capability, elevate professional standards, and uphold the dignity, agency, and wellbeing of people worldwide. Susan is also the Founder of humain.org, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit advancing life-centered leadership and innovation. Her work at Humain.org champions two core commitments: women leading with life and innovation that regenerates the natural world. Through applied research, thought leadership, and cross sector partnerships spanning technology and conservation, she is helping to redefine progress in service of both humanity and the planet. She hosts the humainorg podcast, a storytelling platform featuring global voices who are reimagining how technology, nature, and society can flourish together. As a writer and speaker, Susan explores ethical innovation, regenerative futures, and the cultural transformations needed to usher in a truly life centered era. In addition, Susan is the co-founder of the Lead With Purpose movement, created with Donna Potts McKenzie, which delivers leadership programs for community colleges (including Harper College) and future-of-work pathways for organizations navigating rapid transformation. Across her work in strategy, storytelling, and systems change, Susan’s purpose is clear: to help people, organizations, and technologies lead with wisdom, so that human potential, innovation, and the living planet can thrive together.   HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career, customer experience, digital transformation, AI, as a corporate executive, advisor, thought leader, podcaster, to name just a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? I want to know what's the driving force behind all that you do?SUSAN: If I look back when I was a child, I felt that everybody should be having the same opportunities. For me that as a child, I was going, why I want to have equity, equality. So that was a driving force. I think the driving force for me has been around that is people centric, something about treating people equally and with respect and also emotion.SUSAN: Emotion is at the root of action. How we feel affects what we believe and what we then do. I went from being a creative into being operational. I ran customer and employee operations and I was using technology in a way that gave people better experiences to create the environment and the interactions that created positive emotions because if you've got happy customers and happy staff, then you've got a more profitable business. I learned that life and business is all about relationships. And I'm committed to making business and society more humane.SUSAN: I still don't feel that we have equity or equal opportunities for people. That's why I advocate for DEIB. I'm really passionate about having diversity in the room because actually it's better for decision-making. The more diverse people and ideas that you have and voices, the stronger the solutions. Actually there's a good reason why I care about that.KG: What makes you believe so strongly that concepts like equity, emotional intelligence, human-centered design, why do you believe they're so important and to be at the core of all these transformational things that are happening around us?SUSAN: My career has been around that intersection between people and whatever the emerging technology is and using that in a way, because I've worked in global organizations. It’s been about how you leverage that intersection of human connection and technology to do the right thing by customers, employees at scale. And when I think about ethics and integrity in that space, it is all about honoring our shared humanity. When we are thinking about making changes in organizations or deploying these technologies, it should be there to serve the people. It should be there to add more value to what the purpose of that organization is and what the customers or the citizens that they're serving, how they get more of what they're expecting from that organization.SUSAN: I think part of the red thread for me is about ethics and integrity helps us deploy things or make decisions that are good for humanity. I think also acting with empathy, honesty and respect should be happening in every relationship. In every moment I used to talk about when in organizations like every decision, every transaction should be supporting and reinforcing the brand values of that organization. And in the wider context, it should be supporting and reinforcing empathy, honesty and respect, dignity for people.KG: Do you feel that it is feasible for business leaders, brand managers, product managers, innovators of the world to be able to prioritize human dignity, human rights, concepts like these as they are looking at some of the tough trade-offs today, breakthrough innovations, scaling up profitability, shareholder value?SUSAN: I think they have to end that the tide is turning. I think if you think about it right now, I believe in 2025, we have become disconnected from ourselves, disconnected from each other and disconnected from the world that we live in. There's lots of data points to evidence why that statement might be true. If you think about how we've lost trust in all of the institutions, how we, you know, the level of need for wellbeing. Then if you think about the planet, just all of the indices that we track to show how we are treating the world that we live in and the other creatures that we share the world with. I think there's a lot of evidence to say that we need to change.SUSAN: I think with AI coming, I think there is the opportunity to change because now we're going to be able to, I think leaders need to be standing back and really thinking about the long-term sustainability of their organization and how it is treating its people and the world because the younger generations are going to ask those questions.SUSAN: I think it is possible, I think it is happening. I personally am advocating for that in my organization, Humane Org. For me, it's all about helping women leaders, advocating for them, and then helping leaders make choices that are good for the people that work with them, the societies and the communities they're part of and ultimately what we're doing to our planet.KG: In all of your experiences, has there been one that jumps out in your mind that challenged your sense of ethics and integrity. If you could share something and what you learned from that experience because I think it will shine a light for others who are similarly grappling with ethical dilemmas and asking themselves, can I survive this by doing the right thing?SUSAN: In the beginning of my career, women weren't treated fairly, I don't think, and I experienced that. And then more laterally, think organizations really have grown so big and hierarchical and it really doesn't fit what the world needs today. And COVID was a good example of that, how we had to completely pivot what organizations are. Anyway, through all of that, I've chosen not to work in a corporate now. I work for ICF, the International Coaching Federation, and I am helping that organization elevate coaching because I believe coaching is a way to help the future.SUSAN: I've worked in the tech industry and that's often been the first place that layoffs happen. And I mean, I've had to do it or I've done it because I've been a leader in those organizations. I've understood why the business needed to do it. However, the effects that that have has on people, their livelihoods, the families that they have, the communities that they're part of. I found that a difficult ethical dilemma. And it therefore shaped my conviction that we can and must do business differently. And that's why I've set up Humane Org. It is human centered leadership.SUSAN: I'm here because I believe coaching in every walk of life, if people have access to coaching, then it helps us be better people, better leaders. And therefore it's the ripple effects of what that can do in society. That's the consequence of my ethical dilemmas. I believe I'm in a much better space now and feel I'm in flow as a person and I hope to influence other people in those spaces so that they can help organisations heal.KG: As an expert on responsible, humane AI, what are your observations on real world ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to professionals grappling with such situations?SUSAN: I think at the moment we have a power imbalance and I believe that will get resolved. But right now you've got the power of a few impacting the many. I don't see the influences, the governments could be influencing this, but they are not at the moment, but I think there are some signs, some signals that are changing.SUSAN: I mentioned the breakdown of trust, and this is in many aspects of our lives. And, you know, the fact that we, whether it's in a business as lead or in organizations and leaders, whether you're a leader in a community or educational establishment or a business, you're faced with perpetual volatility at the moment and complexity. And we as consumers also feel that. We feel there's a need to act.SUSAN: I advise leaders to help themselves with this. Hire a coach. If you haven't got a coach in your life right now, I would advocate for getting one. I believe coaching is really a human practice. And so you may be using AI tools to spar on ideas around your goals, your life, et cetera, but that is not the same experience as working with a coach.SUSAN: Wha

    Human Conversation with Susan Caesar

  4. Apr 1

    Human Conversation with Jazz Rasool

    Get To Know Our Guest:Jazz Rasool Jazz Rasool is a British-based scientist, executive coach, and researcher recognized for his pioneering work in Industry 5.0, AI coaching, and human–machine collaboration. He is the founder of the AI Coaching Alliance, a global initiative advancing ethical, humanity-first approaches to artificial intelligence in coaching, and the author of Coaching 5.0, a groundbreaking work integrating AI, the metaverse, and biometrics into coaching practice. With more than two decades of coaching experience, Jazz has blended science, technology, and human development to create innovative tools such as the Atmascope Resonance Engine, designed to help individuals discover their life purpose. His collaborations include work with NASA on space training technologies and contributions to future-focused programs on AI ethics, 3D/VR learning, and immersive education. A TEDx speaker, RSA Fellow, and EMCC Senior Practitioner, Jazz serves as an advisor to techUK, the Association for Coaching, the EMCC, and the Association for Business Psychologists. He was recognized as a Top AI Influencer in 2025 for his thought leadership in Coaching 5.0, which continues to shape the future of coaching and human-centric innovation worldwide. HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career as a researcher, innovator, advisor, speaker, coach, mentor in such diverse fields as industry 5.0, innovation, technology, coaching, to name just a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together? What is the driving force behind all that you do?JAZZ: I feel it's a curiosity and a sense of wonder and a desire to, first of all, bring things alive within myself and bring myself to life. And lastly, it's about paying all those things forward to other people, helping other people get curious, cultivate a sense of wonder, work on things that bring them to life. And again, lead them to pay it forward.JAZZ: The reason I'm a polymath and I've been involved in all of those things is because I always had a sense of wonder about things. I never lost my sense of wonder. And wonder and curiosity work very closely with each other.JAZZ: When your curiosity reaches a certain threshold, you start to experience a sense of wonder about things. And it's the same in reverse. If you have a sense of wonder that reaches a certain threshold, you will get curious about things. And it drives you not down a fixed path.KG: You were an astrophysicist working with such esteemed organizations as NASA. What drew you to the things that speak so deeply to me and are such a call of time today? Ethics and psychology and working with human minds. It's a fascinating journey for a scientist to be walking this path well before it was identified as the crisis of the time. Tell me the journey to that?JAZZ: I suppose I've always been drawn to life in all of its different forms, here on Earth, certainly, in the ecosystems that exist out there, in the environment, in jungles and deserts, in the Arctic, for example. And after a while, you take that idea of going beyond your imagination and you start to be interested in life beyond this world.JAZZ: My journey into astronomy and then into astrophysics into space was actually triggered by me being bullied in school because as a kid, I must have been about 11 or 12 years old. And I went to get as far away as I could from the bullies. In my innocent mind, I thought the furthest place I can get is in outer space.JAZZ: I decided to fight back against the bullies because I thought I'm that thing which I'm trying to reach for, I can't reach it if I let these people get to me and I'm crushed here before I get a chance to even fly. So I did put a stop to those things and then the following year my grades went up, I moved up into the highest classes, I got academic awards and you know it sparked something really interesting in me. It made me start to have a sense of this potential in me that I'd never seen.JAZZ: I began to wonder what, if you could put a ruler or some kind of measure against someone and say, right now you have only manifested 20 % of your potential. There's another 80 % to go. If someone told you that, then people would either bend at the knee and just feel crushed. Or they go, wow, there's another four times more potential in me. And one of the first things I did many years ago was I brought together the different models of psychology from other various cultures and integrate them into a single model to help understand human development and potential in the mind. And I encoded the models into an AI platform. And this was in 2008. And one of the first things I wanted to do was identify based on people's skills and their alignment, where are they on that measure?JAZZ: If people could see not just how much potential they haven't realized yet, but they could see specifically where they not realizing their potential and where they might even be going against themselves and not being true to themselves, then that's the target for coaching. That's the target for mentoring. But you've got to do it in a way which is respectful of what that person can take because some people are not ready to grow and they need to acquire certain experiences before they're ready to grow.JAZZ: If you're a man of substance or you're a woman of substance, then that's something that can be shaped, right? But if you're not a person of any substance at all, There's nothing to say, there's nothing to get a grip on, right? So part of the journey in coaching is to help people start to build substance in their character and in their life. And part of that is about being true to themselves and discovering what it is that they need to be true to. What is the potential that they've got to realize? And ethics is fundamentally about that for me. It's about helping people discover what it is that they need to stay true to.JAZZ: When someone does an injustice to themselves and they're not being true to themselves, technically they are being unethical with themselves. The most ethical thing you can ever do is to be true to yourself and true specifically to the humanity within you that you share with other people.JAZZ: So ethics comes into coaching and mentoring because it helps people to connect in to the things that they need to be true to. But it also highlights where the potential is that must be manifested. It's an injustice if someone has potential and for some reason it's suppressed or for some reason it's not resourced. As a result, that individual stays a caterpillar and never becomes a butterfly.KG: This is my running theory and I've noticed many times the most compassionate and caring people are the ones who were harmed themselves. And in that grief and hurt, they found incredible sensitivity and compassion towards others.JAZZ: As soon as you have that awakening, that someone's not who you think they are, then it's you know, kind of duty within you to no longer fuel the fire of the previous prejudice that you actually had. And because of that, I wanted to start working in a world which didn't have prejudices. And the worst kind of prejudice is a prejudice a person has towards themselves. You know, If they believe within themselves that they're not good enough, they've got imposter syndrome, there's all these things going on. And the opposite is true as well. They can have a prejudice where they think too much of themselves too, and they're arrogant and narcissistic. But if you can find a sweet spot, a place of grace between how humble you can be and how noble you can be then I think that's a magical place where you can actually grow because I've crossed the line from humility into humiliation.JAZZ: It turns out in coaching and mentoring in general, development of individuals, if you can help them find a sweet spot between their humility and nobility, that's a state of grace where they start to develop gravitas in terms of their character and balance. And that's always been my life. I'm always looking for that sweet spot in myself on a daily basis. And whoever I can talk to, I ask them, know, today, where's your grace? Where's that sweet spot between your humility and your nobility? We need to recognize our own value and pay it forward and that's what being noble really is about. But we can't afford to lower our opinion of ourselves so much and dig into humility so much that we cross that line. That's a very fine line between humility and humiliation. Who's going to see your value if people are just walking all over you? What difference are you going to make in the world if you lower yourself that much? So getting that balance is really critical and it's proportionate to the kind of life or the activities that you're trying to do.KG: If we define ethics as being true to who you are, what if someone's self-awareness and motivation, sense of fairness is stunted to begin with and therefore what's true to them might not be what's ethical for the rest of humanity, whether that is a person in an ecosystem or a coder or a developer of AI that would amplify everything in the future. How can we use your definition of what ethics is in a way that protects us also in such scenarios?JAZZ: When I first heard that term, let's focus on human beings rather than technology or corporations or whatever. And then it dawned on me, which human beings are we centering on? I realized there are a lot of bad actors out there and maybe being human centric is not the way to go.JAZZ: That deeper humanity that we all share as a species, whenever anybody really connects into it and they genuinely feel that humanity and they respect it and they honor it, it's impossible for them to engage with things that are unethical because it would mean being in a state of disrespect to their own humanity. And the conservation of our humanity is the outcome of living ethically.JAZZ: If you are not doing things that are ethical, you can expect your humanity to star

    Human Conversation with Jazz Rasool

  5. Mar 3

    Human Conversation with Dr. Isabel de Bruin Cardoso

    Get To Know Our Guest:Dr. Isabel de Bruin Cardoso Dr. Isabel de Bruin Cardso is a leading scholar and practitioner in nonprofit ethics, recognized for her pioneering work on the ethical challenges unique to the nonprofit sector. She is the founder of the Gradel Institute of Charity’s Nonprofit Ethics Lab, an initiative born from her doctoral research at the Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University. Her research introduced the concept of the “NGO halo effect”, demonstrating how nonprofits’ missions, moral identities, and people are often idealized in ways that obscure unethical behavior. This groundbreaking work has positioned her as a thought leader in shaping nonprofit ethics as a distinct field of study and practice. Before embarking on her PhD, Isabel accumulated over 15 years of professional experience across a wide range of organizations, including NGOs, religious congregations, philanthropic foundations, the United Nations, and the World Bank. Through this work, she observed that moral missions and strategies such as codes of conduct, safeguarding training, and whistleblowing systems often failed to prevent unethical practices. These insights motivated her to pursue doctoral research and ultimately establish the Nonprofit Ethics Lab, which bridges research and practice to develop approaches to ethics that are fit for purpose in the nonprofit sector. Currently, Isabel serves as a lecturer and coach at the Rotterdam School of Management, Erasmus University, where she teaches organizational ethics and nonprofit management. She is also a visiting lecturer at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, extending her influence to international academic audiences. Alongside her teaching, she consults with NGOs worldwide, helping organizations navigate ethical dilemmas and strengthen their ethical cultures. Isabel also contributes to nonprofit governance as a board member for several NGOs. Her academic contributions include publications in scholarly journals, practitioner outlets, and newspapers, reflecting her commitment to engaging diverse audiences. She is presently co-editing a book on the paradox of nonprofit discrimination, further advancing discourse on the complexities of ethics in the sector. Isabel holds a PhD in Management from Erasmus University, an MA in Human Rights from Columbia University’s School of International and Public Affairs, and a BA in International Affairs from University College Utrecht, Utrecht University.   HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've had such an interesting career, research, education, consulting across the world, to name just a few. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?DR. ISABEL: I think a lot of where I am now was based on always a drive to be involved with human rights, not necessarily only from a legal rights perspective, but more human rights as a principle as well. But the different stages and phases of my life have also been shaped a lot by circumstance, by people, and by opportunity.KG: What are the terms ethics and integrity mean to you?DR. ISABEL: How I look at ethics versus integrity, I think that ethics is like the framework. That's really kind of like the North Star, the moral compass of what we stand for. As individuals, these can be our values or also as an organization. So ethics would be what is incorporated into a code of conduct or let's say safeguarding policy.DR. ISABEL: Integrity is the implementation thereof. So it's really practicing what you preach. So without ethics, you can still have integrity, but you're not necessarily having that North Star guiding you. And without integrity, you can have ethics, but then you're not implementing your ethics.DR. ISABEL: Ethics really kind of as an overarching guiding principle, if you will, and integrity, the implementation of it.KG: What can you share with me about how you make that make personal sense to you? Is there a personal story, for example, when you yourself felt tested on these two issues of ethics or integrity?DR. ISABEL: So I think ethics, especially with respect to dilemmas, is thinking through how will a decision impact on the people or the stakeholders around you. Ethical dilemmas and making decisions around them are tough. It's never win-win. So being very conscious of the so-called moral remainder or the moral impact of our decisions.DR. ISABEL: I think with respect to how I approached ethical dilemmas to the extent that I have the luxury of time is to think about it, to take the time to think about it. Try and get as much information, perspectives as I can in order to make as informed a possible decision as much as possible. And also being very conscious to kind of reflect on what the outcome of that decision is.DR. ISABEL: Several times in some of the organizations that I worked for. But then the dilemma is what do you say? And how do you say it? And to whom do you say it? And yes, I suppose we are talking about whistleblowing now, but that dilemma also of the uncertainty of not knowing how that will impact you. So the ethical dilemma speak up or not?DR. ISABEL: I think that experience led me to also do a PhD in the sense of how can we explain both kind of that goodness of these organizations, as well as the fact that they can behave unethically. The ethical dilemmas that I've seen at work can also encourage me to undertake a PhD on this topic.KG: Let's acknowledge both exist, pick a path after considering all your stakeholders, all of the important factors, and instead of getting paralyzed by it, choose a path and then make that reflect on those decisions. It might sometimes be a wrong decision.DR. ISABEL: So a decision, you have like a good decision, which is different than the right decision, which is different than the fitting decision. And I suppose it also depends on how one perceives what the correct decision is.DR. ISABEL: The right decision could be about following the rules. You know, it's very clear, I have to do this because that's what the rules say. The fitting decision could maybe be thinking about the potential outcome of something. And the right decision could maybe be based more on implementing one's own virtues, what they stand for.KG: I feel that particularly nonprofit sectors in areas of work and life where people are very much giving for the betterment of the planet, betterment of humanity or other species really, there is an even deeper expectation of goodness, of good values, of ethics. And the burnout can be so much higher. The cognitive dissonance can be so much starker when people act. unethically or organizations show lack of integrity or lack of alignment with stated values, they do not walk the talk.KG: So the research that you are doing and your pursuits through your PhD and I know the work that you do now are so pivotal. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.DR. ISABEL: When there is a sense of cognitive dissonance or a sense of an emotional reaction, if you will, when our values are aligned with those of the organization to the extent that one has the privilege of choosing where to work and people work in the nonprofit sector, people tend to work for organizations whose values are very similar to their own.DR. ISABEL: In the sense of your own values can get flamed by the goodness of what your organization is doing. Like it reflects back on you. You think that you become really, really good because your organization is doing so well, creating a Halo effect. And that can also be reinforced even more within the organization itself.DR. ISABEL: If that sense of others' goodness is also idealized, it's easier to turn a blind eye on their unethical behavior. It's easier to give another chance. So people can be prioritized over integrity.DR. ISABEL: You mentioned burnout and that's something that I've also seen within nonprofits. I think one way of also explaining that within nonprofits is if this achievement of the mission is also haloized, that the mission is the end all be all for what the organization does. And if the mission is prioritized above other considerations like staff well-being or whatever else. There can be this tendency indeed for burnout because whatever you're doing, it's not good enough because you still haven't met the mission. So you need to be accessible at all hours of the day. You need to come in on weekends.There is no rest for the hungry, so to speak, because the mission is always there pushing you.KG: One of the problems is also if one is attempting to focus on employee well-being and also diverse perspectives around the board of the nonprofit, it can feel challenging to assess what to focus on. Do you have any advice for non-profits struggling with these kinds of things?DR. ISABEL: That struggle is inherent to nonprofits. Nonprofits are dependent on others for their resources. And this sounds like a paradox, but by excluding, you actually can include more. Because with limited resources, you are forced to make these decisions about what do we focus on. And by focusing on less, but you're able to do one thing arguably better.DR. ISABEL: Is the question too, about do you fundraise based also on what the donor would like you to do? Because there's also an ethical question. If the donor says you were referring to water sanitation, water, washed water sanitation, if the donor says you can do this, but also let's say education, to what extent do you then drift from your intentional mission to accommodate the donor? Or, you know, are you more conscious to fundraise from particular donors who might give you unrestricted funding and allow you to implement as you see best? So these are also decisions that nonprofits have to face. Where do you want to get your money from? Because this has implications too on how that will be used.KG: What are your observations on real world ethical dilemmas most relevant to non-profit boards today and what

    Human Conversation with Dr. Isabel de Bruin Cardoso

  6. Feb 2

    Human Conversation with Leah JM Dean

    Guest: Leah JM Dean She is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of Conduit International Ltd a professional and personal development solutions company dedicated to helping organizations, leaders and women work smarter, live well, and foster meaningful connections.   With over two decades of experience, Leah has shaped leading HR strategies and served as a trusted coach and advisor to thousands of leaders, employees, and women across the globe. Leah has also led teams and has experience in Strategy Development, Mergers & Acquisitions, Boards & Governance, Professional Speaking, Facilitation, Executive Search, Corporate Communications, Facilities, Administration, and Corporate Social Responsibility.   As the CEO of Conduit International LTD, Leah and her team have worked across diverse industries, including insurance, reinsurance, education, non-profit, faith-based, financial services, food and beverage, and business consulting.   Leah holds an MBA from St. John’s University and is a certified strengths coach. She is also the author of two books Be Different & Assemble the Tribe, which was named Bermuda’s most popular book of the year in 2021.   A self-proclaimed recovering workaholic, Leah is passionate about helping women and organizations to find strategies to optimize their work, invest in their wellbeing and make a lasting impact on the lives of those they touch.   When she is not working, Leah enjoys reading, writing, walking in nature, and spending quality time with family and friends. She lives in Bermuda with her husband Terrance and two children.   HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG: You've done so many different things. You've had an impactful career in corporate leadership, speaking, training, coaching, writing, mentoring all over the world. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? I was curious about the driving force behind all that you do.LEAH: I had to say that there was a thread, I think the thread that weaves, that has woven its way through everything for me, it really comes back to my mind.LEAH: I guess if I had to sum it all up, my why in this season and my why for my work and my business is about helping organizations and leaders and women to work smart, to live well and connect with people.LEAH: I'm a strengths coach, so I believe we all have strengths and talents that we can develop into strengths and we should look to unleash that unlock it, the live well piece it's I think we're whole people and so there's the part of us that shows up at work. There's a bus that are leaders there's a gift that we have to give to the organization. But so many leaders do that at the sacrifice of themselves and so how can we live well? And then the connect people has just been my work for the last seven years or so, how do we build community? We need community to live our healthiest, happiest lives. And so all the work that I'm doing every day kind of plays.KG: What a beautiful thought. It makes space for varying focus areas and varying needs in different stages of life, but also enables people to identify core values that drive a person forward.LEAH: My experience is that your purpose, or purpose by definition, is the reason you exist. You are literally your purpose when you walk into the room and how that purpose is delivered or resonates or shows up in different seasons will change.LEAH: When you leave yourself open to the possibility of change, like the world just opens up in a much bigger way than if we put ourselves in these boxes.KG: What is your idea of ethics and leadership? What do those stumps mean to you?LEAH: Ethics are the principles of conduct that govern an individual or group. They're the principles that drive us as individuals or groups of people. Integrity is really about adherence to a code of values.LEAH: Values is like the anchor. It's the thing that, they're the things that keep you grounded in what matters. And then ethics is like the chain connected to the anchor. They connect to your anchor, your daily decisions, they give structure and tension. And then integrity is like the steadiness of the vessel. It shows if your anchor and your chain are keeping you from drifting when the current shifts.LEAH: Values are what you believe is important. Ethics create the rule to honor those beliefs. And then integrity is how you live them out when they're watching.KG: Do you have a personal story of a time when you had to navigate a different difficult ethical dilemma? But how would the outcome of that incident might have been?LEAH: Values, there's deep fundamental beliefs. They're both actual and aspirational. I've learned is that as we grow and as we develop, if we accept that we each have the capacity for change, then it's also possible that our beliefs are going to change, which means the chain and the tension is also going to change over time as well.LEAH: When we're navigating these issues, I think it's really important that we leave some room to grow, that we leave some room for grace. And then we also have to remember that a lot of the deep work that we're going to do is actually in the gray.KG: A lot of dilemmas and leadership is around the fact that there is no one true clear answer. It's so contextual and you're saying what's important is to maintain a sense of agility and fluidity instead of brittleness and rigidity around looking at things with the binary lens.LEAH: Shortly into my tenure I was asked to do something from a values and ethics perspective. I just thought it was unethical. And so my answer has to be that under no circumstance can I do that thing that you're asking me to do. And so at the end of the day, this is the decision that you have to make.LEAH: Sometimes when we think that there are these values and ethics that we stand on, we think that we should know the right answers all of the time. Sometimes what we really need to do is take a step back and as you said, give ourselves space to consider all of the options.LEAH: These issues that we navigate are never one dimensional. They're often complicated. These issues are going to come up again and again and again. And in some ways it feels like we even more increasing frequency right now and I think if we give ourselves the space to say what's the right answer for this moment I think that we will find ourselves in a better place.KG: These days, taking a stance seems like a dangerous thing to do. That you'll alienate some people, that you'll figure out this is what you care about and being seen and being authentic can sometimes feel dangerous because of public scrutiny, because leaders can be cancelled and they are quite often.KG: In all of this, what gave you the strength and the clarity to say this is important and I'm okay to take a stance? How can someone evaluate for themselves and make a timely decision on whether or not to take a stance? Can you share a little bit about how you thought it through?LEAH: I think there's two deciding factors. One is value. So for me, one of my values is trust. And the definition that I use for trust for me, for my trust value, is trust is where your intent and your behavior line up.LEAH: I want to lean into the work smart part of my mission. The other thing that I think helps me is some of my strengths can be very, some of them have a force to them. There's part of me that says, how can I turn the strength on myself to make sure I do the right thing? And so that's part of how I kind of processed how I was going to show up. Like, yes, it's uncomfortable. Yes, you don't really like it, but you have the strengths of responsibility and command and activator.LEAH: If the goal is for the organization to achieve results, if the goal is to bring people together, then we owe it to ourselves and the organizations and the situations to have these conversations. And for me, my value said I had to give back.KG: Do you have any observations on ethical dilemmas most relevant today? And what would your advice be to professionals, leaders, organizations?LEAH: How do we deal with the divisiveness that we see as people pick a spot and then dig in and entrench into those corners? And so the dilemma that a leader often has is do I then couple that with my own beliefs and values and then double down in that space? Or is there something else that I should be doing?LEAH: My reflections come from my last piece of work, which is a book that I wrote. It's more of a faith-based book. It's called Be Different.LEAH: I often take a piece of work and I say, how could I apply that in a leadership context? And so there is a model that is embedded in this whole idea of being different in that book. And when I apply that from a leadership context, it pushes me to ask leaders to first ask the question, how can I be different? LEAH: There's five pillars. 1) Listen Different 2) Trust Different 3) Think Different 4) Talk Different 5) Live DifferentLEAH: The simple definition that I use for that is leadership is about unlocking the greatness in others to achieve results, right? And so if I want to unlock the greatness in my team that has very different views, then what is it that I need to do in order to get to that place that allows us to move forward together?And I would contend that the answer that every leader has to challenge themselves with is how can I be different in the gray.KG: How does that work in a rapidly evolving world with so much uncertainty, so much accelerated change, and with a lot of uncertainty also in how do we create an AI-empowered, fair world and not an AI-driven chaos where we can't quite control these very systems that we half-bakedly built. Can you help me understand how this framework that you're recommending will fit the leaders operating in this level of uncertainty too?LEAH: I watched this TED Talk on emotion and stress. And the particular speaker, she said, often we are afraid of certain things, but actually we need to use that stress and discomfort as a b

    Human Conversation with Leah JM Dean

  7. 12/02/2025

    Human Conversation with Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan

    Guest: Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan Prof. Saman works at the intersection of Technology, Education, and Business, driving Digital & Responsible Innovation and Transformation. As the COO and Vice Dean of Ecole des Ponts Business School of ecole nationale des ponts et chaussées (ENPC) and Founding Director of ReTech Center, he is a global thought leader helping entrepreneurs, executives, and decision makers navigate the Responsible Transition toward Industry 5.0. HIGHLIGHTS/TAKEAWAYS: KG:  You've had such an interesting career since 2000 in technology, in academia and business, how do you interconnect these domains and what drives you through all of this?DR. SAMAN: Since I was riding the tip of a very nice wave of technological transformation that I was lucky, of course, but that's how this store was remained open. You get to the point that, you would like to get engaged with more organizational and leadership aspects beyond the technology as a tool, as an enabler, but rather in terms of how decisions are made organizationally and everything else.DR. SAMAN: As you're working in technology, you're always using all the tools that you're very much informed about the reality of things, whether it be, metrics and measures for sustainability or socioeconomic, sort of implications of digital transformation up to governance and leadership aspects, which are very, very broad. So that's the way that I carved my way through was through the convergence of digital transformation with the responsible transition, which includes sustainability, circular economy, ESG, SDGs, and all the elements of responsible transition.DR. SAMAN: I'm actually really lucky because what we do here, especially at this school, working with executives, that's very enriching for me personally, but also for the work that we do. You know, with our community of alumni and participants. Because that is how we make sense of things. We bring something more meaningful than just studying or getting a degree or investing in something just for financial growth. We really look beyond that because we have that common interest and that's the value that gathers us all around what we do collectively.KG: How would you describe ethics and integrity in your context of the digitally empowered responsible transformation?DR. SAMAN: This from retrospective to foresight driven sort of ethics is one very important pillar that I can share. The other could be like the move from rule-based compliance to value aligned design in which, the move from as seen as external rules or legal requirements to be followed, this move from that side to the internalized sort of purpose-driven design that we have for our businesses and economies. Again, the angle is the desirable emerging futures, where organizations align the operations and supply chains and technologies and business models all around an embedded sort of ethics and integrity.DR. SAMAN: We can also think about from a binary trade between right and wrong to navigating like tensions and paradoxes and trade-offs because now the economies and markets that we engage with today increasingly are interconnected and over complex.KG: Are you noticing any pattern, as you're working with corporates and companies tackling the very cutting edge of technology? Are you noticing one particular stream more relevant to companies over the others as they're thinking about responsible technology?DR. SAMAN: Like the retrospective one to foresight driven and, embedding ethics and integrity into foresight. Industry leaders and also purpose-driven innovators that understand the implications of this digitally empowered economy that must be responsible because digital transformation is not going to slow down and every day we see more innovative ways of integrating technology in our personal professional lives.DR. SAMAN: These forces are coming together, those who are leading markets and industries and those innovators who are shaping the emerging futures of markets and societies, they work with it very directly. Those who are more receiving the consequences of this shift from rule-based compliance to value-aligned design. Those are companies who integrate ethics and integrity in the operation and leadership structures of not only their own organizations, but also they provide the tools for others as well to do so.DR. SAMAN: The one that about like from binary ethics to the complex tradeoffs, this is mostly I think well perceived and understood by all those who are engaging with the digital economy either directly or they are impacted by the shifts in the digital economy and also they interact with socioeconomic, socio-environmental dimension of their industry which means that they have a more sort of proactive engagement with their stakeholders either through investors and policy makers or through users and partners and clients.KG: What's your observation with Big Tech and how do you work with them to create that vision you have for a responsible future and ethical future in technology?DR. SAMAN: The pressure is there and that's one of the drivers of this transition to the responsible economy. So the driver for the digital transformation is of course competitiveness. There are many drivers for digital transformation like driving innovation, remaining competitiveness. But for the responsible transition,the pressure is coming from stakeholders, from policy and regulatory bodies, from investors, from consumers, from partners.DR. SAMAN: These pressures are very productive and of course they sort of push our markets and industries towards a more responsible sort of way of leveraging the capital and their assets. So what happens is that now increasingly we are collaborating with international organizations from businesses to government bodies.DR. SAMAN: So I think for me, it's like you need to embrace this pressure that comes. Of course, it's not easy, especially for larger organizations, like this is like a very strong competitive advantage for startups because you work on the cultural dimensions and a lot around change management and transformation.DR. SAMAN: The whole dynamic that is created around this move towards the digitally empowered responsible economy is making it very interesting to watch. Of course, it's like watching a dance floor. You get bored if you don't dance. So those who don't want to engage with the change, they won't enjoy it as much as those who are engaging with the change and transformation either receiving or, providing services and by any means that they can, they do something.KG: Do you have any perspective or take you want to share on those kinds of environments where digital transformation is inevitable and it's going to be everywhere? Some states perhaps are not there yet in terms of capability to partner well and to monitor and then delegating governance. Would you share some perspectives or advice on such environments?DR. SAMAN: If you contrast like this model of delegating governance versus too much of centralization as we see in advanced economies, which mostly are not yet at the capacity that they could be, the common element in both models that is contributing to this inefficiency, is the gap of skills. It's the gap of skills that touches all domains, like gap of skills in leadership and governance by itself, gap of skills.DR. SAMAN: Why does it matter? Because now moving forward, it's like the digitally empowered responsible transition requires our leadership and governance models to reflect both the digital transformation what can be done with it, what are their impacts, how would it change the way we do things and also the responsible transition like for example, depending on the region but generally speaking like circular economy and SDGs and SDGs.DR. SAMAN: This skills, the gap of skills in leadership and governance, the gap of skills in technology, operational aspects of the responsible transition like sustainable practices, regenerative practices, like all industries, from fashion, agriculture, energy, manufacturing, of course, all of them are impacted.KG: Have you come across any examples where perhaps they come close to what you're describing in either model and they're doing it well?DR. SAMAN: One of the contributions that we have is with the European Commission's community of practice of Industry 5.0 which ReTech Center is an official member of and there with other partners under the leadership of the EU Commission we drive practical aspects of the transition to Industry 5.0, is sustainability and technology together. So they represent a good role model for driving this. The EU Commission by itself is a great example.KG: Have you had a personal experience where you had to navigate a difficult ethical dilemma? I'm curious about how such experiences have shaped your own approach moving forward because you're so deeply involved in creating a sustainable ethical future. Would you have an example you'd like to share?DR. SAMAN: When I was working on more hands-on sort of keyboard as we say. It was, we knew the potentials of the market. We could see the potentials of the market because we were developing solutions. And over time you start thinking about the socioeconomic and socio-environmental value of what is being you know, sort of delivered, sold, bought, you know. And then, you start questioning like, how else could it be done? How could it, you know, technology can be great tool? Why not focusing more on like enabling aspects of it rather than just driving the financial gains?DR. SAMAN: I have to step up and if I believe that something can be done and if I know how to do it, I need to share it and academia is a great platform to share.KG: Did you face any hurdles in making your vision come true? That it's not just the economic drivers around profitability, but we could think about a sustainable future too.DR. SAMAN: The type of challenges and hurdles that I observed and worked with. So I brought them together

    Human Conversation with Dr. Saman Sarbazvatan

  8. 11/05/2025

    Human Conversation with Tini Fadzillah

    Guest: Tini Fadzillah Tini Fadzillah is an executive coach and trainer based in Singapore with clients throughout Asia. She specializes in coaching C-suite and senior executives in performance, leadership and change; with a reputation of surfacing and creating sustainable shifts to the underlying conversations needed to unlock a leader’s full potential and drive results. Tini co-founded TWP in South East Asia in 1996 and has worked with thousands of people from diverse cultures on both personal and professional goals. Her passion is working with people to design a compelling future and to translate their goals into reality. Tini is a Newfield Certified Ontological Coach and is an MCC level certified coach with the International Coaching Federation. Her clients include PETRONAS, La-Prairie, Aditya Birla, Prudential, AXA, Singapore Airlines, Mastercard, Save the Children, Eastspring Investment and Afton Chemical. Tini is a passionate advocate for the role of the body in creating a powerful leadership presence. She is certified to use Tension Releasing Exercises™ and Wendy Palmer’s Leadership Embodiment curriculum. She also co-designed and delivered the “Women and Leadership Presence” program and was an active member of the team that designed the Character Building component of the National Service in Malaysia. Tini is also a certified health coach and embeds wellness within her coaching narratives as well.   HIGHLIGHTS & TAKEAWAYS:KG:  You're a leader of one of the eminent coaching, training companies, and education companies out there. You continue to do different kinds of work. I know that you coach, you train, you podcast, you write, you mentor. Is there a red thread that ties all of it together for you? What's the driving force behind all that you do?TINI: Absolutely, and that's people. One of the things I always say is that I absolutely love working with people. I have a firm belief that people wake up in the morning going, how can I do a good job today? And some people hit the mark and some people don't. I get to work with people who have the courage to go, let's try something different. And it's easy for me to say it, but for my clients who really are willing to let go of some of their long-held beliefs is just really courageous. And for them to be able to see the outcome of that is just, it's crazy that I get paid to do what I do. I love people. And that's the thread that runs through everything I do.KG: What was your journey that got you to this version of you, where you said, I love people. This is what I want to do. And here's how I'm going to show up in the world?TINI: I'm going to say the way I was raised was one of the reasons why I'm here. If you can imagine my whole life up to university where I left home was really about and if you read The book, The Purple Book of Coaching, I talk about this, which is from day young, when I was really young. I just remember us always having these conversations around my dad's work, around some challenges he would have, and they're all linked to relating.TINI: One of the things that I learned, which bridges into the work I do today, is that everyone wants to do a good job. I do believe that. Some people hit it, some people don't. And I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and says, okay, today's the day I'm gonna do a really bad job.TINI: My role, and a lot of coaches do this, is our job, if the client wants this, is to support them to create a different future. So to answer your question about where did this come from, I'm going to say it's from my parents, certainly from my dad's work. I still love seeing what's happening in the world platform, in the world stage and just the relationship breakdowns that are happening or the lack of capacity for this or that, or with some people who are doing it really well.KG: Tell me a little bit more about what that book (The Purple Book of Coaching) means to you and what your objectives are in bringing that book to the world?TINI: We have access to some of the great experts in the field of performance in the field of somatics or the body, emotions, language, ontology, which is the umbrella of it all. And we work with them day in, day out, day in, day out. And people who get to access them are the ones who register for a program or have contracted us to do a program in their organization. We wanted to get some of this wisdom together in a book that's accessible to people globally, beyond just when they sign up for a program. And so that's really the objective.TINI: The objective or the drive is to impact human beings. Our objective, I love what I do and it's a tool for people to design the future that they're compelled by, full stop. And so if this is one of the platforms that people can access so that they can, in my chapter, I talk about relationships, that they can really take a look at the distinctions that I'm suggesting impact the quality and effectiveness of relationships and that makes a difference to someone living in the USA, why not? That's really the objective, to collate the wisdom and curate something that everyone can access if they want.KG: If there were a one line summary of what the Purple book stands for, what's the message that you're putting out there?TINI: The book's objective is for people to leave knowing that you can design your future. You really can, regardless of the historical narratives.KG: You create a very positive future, the potential is always positive and uplifted and elevated. How are you able to tie those two things together? What is right in the world?TINI: Relationships are everywhere. The question here is, where are you thriving in the relationships that you are creating? Where do you feel you can improve? Things happen in life that something that looked like it was thriving may plummet. And for a window of time, you're not thriving, such as after the death of a loved one. And so you may plummet a bit and your relationship with death, your relationship with loneliness, et cetera, might surface. And so that's really the link I would start with. Would start with relationships happening everywhere.KG: Ethics and integrity, what do they mean to you?TINI: Someone's capacity to create a fulfilled life, is the link, which is not always about happy. Sometimes it's about what's fulfilling for me. It can include happy. It can include contribution. And so the link to Ethics, integrity is to be in line with what matters to you in my world.KG: Would you feel comfortable sharing a personal example where you felt challenged, but you navigated through it while feeling one, you stayed aligned with your values and two, you were satisfied with how you showed up in that situation?TINI: The story of being a mom and being a mom to a child with special needs. I actually think it was my values that had me and what mattered to me, that really had me get on this journey.TINI: There is that transitional moment and my capacity to have my values align myself to create the clarity and designing my future.TINI: For those who might be starting their journey, it might be like, it's still really gray and cloudy. And that's okay because we become stronger. It could be that there was a breakdown in the organization. It could be that you need to lay off a whole bunch of people and it could be anything that you perceive as a breakdown. I know it's the value of the work that I did, because I was already doing this work and now is my opportunity to live what I'm working with people to live. It's like, I get to be a self-coach and even access my peers.TINI: Relationships, which is no one's expecting you to do this yourself. My point of view is we're actually the worst when we're like, you handle it yourself. This is a solo sport. It isn't. It isn't in my world. And it was with the support of lots of people and the environment of people always asking the question of what is it that matters to you? And then getting aligned with that.TINI: We're all writing chapters. The book doesn't end until it ends.KG: In navigating some of the greatest challenges, focusing inwards on understanding yourself, exploring what's possible within you is what is critical. Would you agree?TINI: There's value in focusing in words. And what I mean by that is the reflective nature of in words.TINI: When I focus inwards and I grow and I learn by self-reflection. I actually become better when I focus out and come from a place of contribution. What's my contribution? And my contribution could be tough love. My contribution could be honesty. My contribution could be listening, whatever it is, but coming from a place of focusing out to be part of a solution. And what came to me is this idea of living with polarities. The power of polarities.TINI: It's actually necessary, us breathing in, inhale, exhale. You can't breathe by just exhaling all the time. It comes in a package. What triggered my thinking when you said inward reflection and then outward focus and I think that's really perfect and relating is like that too right this is all about relating actually where it's where am I relating with self what is my relationship with self and what's my relationship outwards it's a lovely polarity.KG: What are you observing are some of the most demanding ethical dilemmas of the day? Are you observing any patterns of the age right now?TINI: Let me just start with general patterns first. And this has been consistent and it's equally as consistent and present today. And it links with this whole premise of people relating with one another and this idea of ethics, maybe not so much ethics, but just being in alignment with my principles and being in integrity with it.TINI: If you're not working in an organization, then you can start to reflect on what are the organizations that I'm engaged with and how is this relevant? And the one that is consistent is this idea of being honest.TINI: Something that's not in alignment with fill in the blank

    Human Conversation with Tini Fadzillah
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How do today's leaders navigate complex ethical dilemmas while inspiring teams, creating trust, and driving results? Welcome to The Human Conversation Podcast on Leadership and Ethics, a podcast exploring the intersection of leadership, ethics, and organizational culture. Join host Kaumudi Goda as she engages visionary executives, thought leaders, and changemakers in candid conversations about integrity and purpose-driven leadership. You’ll hear perspectives from diverse fields, including business, government, advocacy, academia, and the arts. What guiding principles shape a leader’s approach to ethical challenges?How can we foster ethical cultures amid competing priorities?Can ethics and profit coexist? Tune in as we tackle these compelling questions and examine leadership case studies from the latest headlines.

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