Words to the WHYs on Healthcare Podcast

Tina Marsh Dalton

Illuminating the "WHYs" of health care and the economics behind it all- maybe even with optimism and humor! tinamarshdalton.substack.com

Episodes

  1. Apr 10

    Insurance Choices with Aaron Yelowitz: Part 2

    In Part 2 of my conversation with Dr. Aaron Yelowitz, we move beyond asking who can best help consumers with complex health insurance choices and ask instead, “Why are they so darn complex in the first place?!” We discuss how this complexity attempts to fight inherent market failures in insurance offerings, but confusion may also be a strategic financial move by insurers. Would standardization of plan choices help consumers? What other markets have faced the same pressures? How might this hold back consumer-focused innovation in the long run? Dr. Aaron Yelowitz is an Economics professor University of Kentucky, a joint faculty member in the Martin School of Public Policy and Administration, a senior fellow with the Cato Institute, and a research fellow with the Institute of Labor Economics (IZA). Be sure to check out Part I of our conversation, answering the notorious question: “Should we trust consumers or bureaucrats with insurance choices?” Transcript: A Conversation about Consumer Choice and Health Insurance: Part 2 Tina Marsh Dalton I would love to know your opinion on this idea that’s been running in my head about insurance markets. Obviously, enrollees choosing plans that waste their money is bad. But I’ve wondered — why is our question, who’s the best to make this really complex, confusing choice? What if the question was, why is this choice so confusing? Why are plans so complex? I almost wrote a paper on this in grad school. Is it a way to stop adverse selection? Aaron Yelowitz It could be adverse selection, it could be moral hazard. Under the simplest theory of insurance, we would want to fully cover you against bad things happening to you — you pay a premium up front, no coinsurance, no deductibles, no maximum out-of-pockets. But if the bad thing happens to you, it’s like it never even happened — that’s Allstate’s motto. Of course, whenever something bad happens to you and we compensate you for it, then the moral hazard problem — the idea that you would go to the doctor more often for relatively minor things — comes into play. So the idea is maybe cost-sharing, skin in the game, puts discipline on consumers. It’s fundamentally the trade-off between: we don’t want really bad things to happen to you, but we also know that if we make something free or near-free, people will wastefully use it. But try explaining that to consumers. The design of those plans can attract different kinds of people — imagine that I’m old and sick, and you’re young and healthy. I might be attracted to a low-deductible plan. You might prefer greater protection too, but because you don’t go to the doctor that much, you’re fine with a high deductible. You’d still like the protection, but if the pool of people in the more generous plan is more adversely selected, you don’t want to hang out in that neighborhood if you’re a healthy person. Tina Marsh Dalton I view this from the insurer provider side — I want to have really complex plans, because that’s going to make it hard for the old person to know which plan to choose and hard for the young person too, and we’re going to have things smoothed out. I don’t see much policy discussion about, rather than helping people make the complex choices, how can we make the choices less complex? Aaron Yelowitz You know what’s interesting? Amy Finkelstein, of course, has a paper on everything, so it’s no surprise. Medigap plans used to be the Wild West. Prior to Medicare Part D — which provided prescription drug coverage, passed in 2003 and implemented in 2006 — drugs weren’t as big of a deal in the 1960s, but they became a much bigger deal over time. Part of the way seniors would get drug coverage, because Part A and Part B of Medicare didn’t cover it, was through what was called a Medigap plan. These still exist today. And it used to be there was almost zero standardization — so call it too much choice, but more just there was no easy way to comparison shop. At some point, the government came in and put some standardization on, here are the things a plan must have. And if that sounds familiar — when you signed mortgage documents at some point, there was surely a standard bureaucratic form you filled out. Or if you apply for a credit card, they’re required to show APRs, that kind of stuff. We see this kind of standardization pop up in all sorts of areas. Tina Marsh Dalton Those are both complex financial areas, right? And sometimes you have a lawyer helping you in the mortgage case, whereas you don’t have that in the healthcare case. Aaron Yelowitz We could ask, though — how much good does that do? When you put some things as prominent — you’re putting your thumb on the scale and saying the APR matters, or this matters, or that matters. Directionally, that’s probably true. Is it true for everyone all the time? The example I like to give is not a financial product, but imagine you were deciding which cereal to eat this morning. There is standardization that exists today that didn’t always exist — the side of the cereal box with calories per serving, broken out into macronutrients. Those are there so you can be a better shopper. But of course, you can’t adjust what a serving means, and we might be targeting the wrong thing. Those in the longevity space, for example, might say that the view of fat versus carbs in yesteryear versus today is vastly different. Imagine you put your thumb on the scale that carbs are okay and fat is bad, back in the day, and now perhaps we don’t think it’s nearly as obvious. So that’s exactly the idea — the bureaucrat comes in, standardizes something, we might think markets work a little more efficiently because of that. But you are putting your thumb on the scale saying what is important. Tina Marsh Dalton Yeah, it’s true. So we’re still stuck in the same dilemma of somebody’s making a choice. I think it has interesting distributional effects too, because we’re talking about this distribution of consumers, some of whom might be quite sophisticated. So those sophisticated consumers might be very well off in a system where they get to make very individualized choices. What they find in the Medicare literature is that poor plan choice happens more in the 75-to-80 age range, whereas 90-year-olds make great choices — because it’s like their kids or caregivers are making it for them. But then, when you standardize, you’re taking away the benefits for the top of the distribution, while you might be bringing up the bottom of the distribution. Aaron Yelowitz Right, and you alter behavior. Imagine we say carbs, protein, and fat matter, but other things don’t matter to the same degree. People today might say, for example, food dyes matter. You’re putting your thumb on the scale, saying these things matter and these things don’t, and at least for some people — as current conversation would suggest — there are other things that really do matter. And in some ways, it feels like it stifles innovation. Imagine you’re the cereal maker that says I’m not going to use food dyes, but that’s hardly rewarded in this context. Imagine you’re the professor who says, I want to do podcasts as part of my research dissemination. But if the profession rewards boring extensions in peer-reviewed journals rather than anything else, sometimes you get a disruptor through outside funding that can help move things, but not always. So the problem with standards is someone defined them somewhere — directionally, they’re probably not crazy, but could they stifle innovation along other margins that really are important, and perhaps margins we haven’t thought of? Tina Marsh Dalton That is really interesting when I’m thinking about how to make progress in this space. I think in the US, that’s especially important in healthcare, because we’ve hit this rough patch — how do you create a space for innovation? I’m thinking of mortgages now. I’ve had chats with my good friend who’s a realtor. His family actually has a plan that’s outside of the insurance space — it’s a religious-based plan, an international religious-based plan, and I’ve been fascinated by how he found it and how it’s existing outside of our pretty strict structure. How do we get innovative spaces while maintaining the safety net — the health insurance exchanges are still there, Medicaid is still there? Aaron Yelowitz I do think there’s a fundamental tension there. I’m a little bit aware of these collective plans where essentially a group of people, often incorporating religious values, get together. And one-size-fits-all, as an administration changes one way or another, has all the culture wars that exist today feeling like they are, to some extent, at the margin of healthcare decisions, autonomy, and fundamental values — do I have to pay for what you’re doing, and do you have to pay for what I’m doing? There’s a lot of that going on right now, and it’s not new to today — it’s been there all the time. And fundamentally, when I’ve quickly looked over these plans, what I’ve worried about is that they often have a maximum amount they can pay out. The thing that has concerned me is the undermining of coverage for some catastrophic event — the whole idea behind insurance is the small-probability catastrophic event. These plans are relatively small, and imagine they’re kind of under-financed in some ways. If you happen to be on a plan and had a $5 million expense, that is backbreaking for them, so they cap it off. Tina Marsh Dalton They need to get their size, yeah. Aaron Yelowitz Yeah, so you could imagine that this is just life — people make choices, and basically, do people want to buy plans that accord with their fundamental values, even if they potentially have existential risk to them? Free market people would say, that’s life, people will do that. T

    Insurance Choices with Aaron Yelowitz: Part 2
  2. Apr 9

    Should We Trust Consumers or Bureaucrats with Insurance Choices? With Dr. Aaron Yelowitz

    In this podcast, Dr. Aaron Yelowitz and I talk over our dueling papers concerning the role of the government in health insurance choice. We know that consumers often struggle with complex plans, leading to costly mistakes and inertia, even when better options exist. However, individual choice can lead to better matches to our preferences versus rigid, one-size-fits-all approaches of bureaucratic systems. Centralized choice presents a risk if government agencies have different priorities than constituents, such as budgetary savings or risk-aversion to bad publicity. Dr. Yelowitz walks through a major Medicaid program in Kentucky which shows how default assignments and opaque algorithms created both financial losses and restricted access for inattentive consumers. Can we design systems to allow consumer choice balanced with structured guidance? How might AI help simplify decisions, reducing errors while preserving flexibility to improve healthcare decision-making? Dr. Aaron Yelowitz is an Economics professor University of Kentucky, a joint faculty member in the Martin School of Public Policy and Administration, a senior fellow with the Cato Institute, and a research fellow with the Institute of Labor Economics (IZA). If you’re curious on how we choose insurance wrong (and how to get better at it), check out my accompanying post! Transcript: A Conversation about Consumer Choice and Health Insurance: Should We Trust Consumers or Bureaucrats with Our Health? Tina Marsh Dalton Welcome to Words to the WHYs on Healthcare podcast, Aaron. I’m really glad to have you. Aaron Yelowitz Pleasure to be here. Tina Marsh Dalton So, we were going to talk today — we have these paired chapters where we’re thinking about what’s the role of markets, what’s the role of the government in healthcare. But let’s start with yours. Why don’t I let you tell the title of your paper, because I feel like you’re going to give a better spin. Aaron Yelowitz So, the title of my paper, very provocatively and non-judgmentally, is, Should We Trust Consumers or Bureaucrats? The big idea in it is that one way of thinking about health insurance is that it’s a financial product. It covers uncertain healthcare expenses that may arise, and consumers, generally speaking, are not all that good at making financial decisions. Imagine that there are many health insurance plans out there. Figuring out which one is the correct one, given your circumstances and the forecasting involved, is really challenging. Tina Marsh Dalton But then the question is — you have a lot of choices. Aaron Yelowitz Yes, there could be a lot of choices, even two choices. Tina Marsh Dalton And then there’s all these pieces that are super confusing. Aaron Yelowitz Yes. So, for example, I’m sure the students in your class or in my class can understand distinctions between deductibles and coinsurance rates and maximum out-of-pockets and so forth. Take that to people who haven’t taken a health economics class, yet are economics majors or fairly literate business-wise. It’s not always obvious that they understand those kinds of distinctions, and that is just the first pass, right? Tina Marsh Dalton I actually have a story about that. I saw my cell phone ring right after I started my first job. It was an old friend from grad school, and I was so glad he was calling me. He has a PhD, he did very well, but he was calling because he had to choose his first health plan and wanted some help. And it’s like — oh my gosh, you have a PhD, and this is already complex. Aaron Yelowitz The way I liken it to my students — imagine that we were presenting in class in a language other than English. Basically, no one would be able to understand what we’re saying, and in a way, we could almost think of financial products as having a flavor like that. And that doesn’t even scratch the surface over networks and coverage, things that potentially matter. Where the hook comes in, in my chapter, would be — let’s all agree that plenty of consumers are making real mistakes, leaving money on the table. Tina Marsh Dalton Could we explain how that might be happening? Because both you and I, in both of our chapters, identify that consumers could make mistakes — so what would be an example of a mistake? Aaron Yelowitz Yes. There is a thriving economics literature, including Ben Handel’s excellent work in the American Economic Review, that basically shows a large, anonymous company that offered health plans, and partway through the study period, they updated those plans. Some of those plans no longer worked for employees in the following way: no matter how much you might spend that year, you were worse off being in that plan compared to some other plan because of the cost structure. The way we can simplify this — imagine that I was offering you a hamburger, the same hamburger, for either $2 or $3. In principle, everyone should pick the $2 hamburger because it’s the same hamburger. The amount of money that was lost by choosing the wrong hamburger — the same hamburger but more expensive — was often in the hundreds or thousands of dollars per year, and of course, that can compound year after year. This is not some people choosing a plan because they’re sicker, or others making bad forecasts. This is literally, if two hamburgers are right there, choosing the more expensive one, even though they’re the same hamburger. Tina Marsh Dalton Yeah. I’ll be referring listeners to a post that accompanies this, that is going to walk through this paper. But the idea is that the deductibles were all different, but the plan itself was the same, and when they changed premiums, people didn’t notice that they were actually paying way more in premiums than before. They could have saved money and gotten the same thing in a different plan. Other papers sometimes talk about just the number of pieces of the plan confusing the enrollees — they focus on one thing and choose the lowest of that, but the other pieces would have made a different plan better, things like that. Aaron Yelowitz Exactly. And then what Handel shows is — we might think we all make mistakes, right? You pick something and then you say, I didn’t read the terms and conditions, let me get out of that silly choice and make a different choice. What he shows in his paper is that there is a surprising amount of persistence if you home in on the traditional economic model, which says people have perfect information, they respond very quickly, and so forth. Of course, most of us, through introspection, could easily dismiss that kind of thing. How many of us have streaming subscriptions that go from one month to the next where we haven’t used the streaming at all in the last month? Tina Marsh Dalton And where, in principle, if you subscribed on your phone, you could immediately subscribe and then cancel, and it auto-cancels. Aaron Yelowitz But choice architecture — Netflix, Disney, any of those — basically wants you to auto-renew, rather than automatically canceling, where the moment you realize there’s something you want to watch, you could easily renew. So basically, lots of persistence. Tina Marsh Dalton I like that — it’s also just really hard, right? And to throw a bone to people who might be thinking this applies to them: it’s hard, and you’ve just decided there are other things in your life that you have to focus on. So the idea of, how can we make this less hard, so that people can take the extra time to make the good choice? Aaron Yelowitz Yeah, so there’s obviously an issue of rational inattention. For example, should you ponder every day how to drive from home to work? The answer might be — if it’s a particularly important day. I emphasize to my students that perhaps on the day of a midterm, you would map your route, check your phone ahead of time, make sure there are no traffic delays, that kind of thing. But oftentimes, people get stuck in their ways. I can predict after day one where each of my students will sit in their class, even though I don’t have assigned seating and even though attendance tails off after day one. Tina Marsh Dalton There are new seats available they could choose from. Aaron Yelowitz They could re-optimize, and they would all nod their head and agree with me that there is a lot of stickiness to it. So basically, the neat thing about Handel’s AER paper is that there are really two different ideas. One is that you could be asleep at the wheel — which he calls inertia — and the other is you might just have what I might consider a mistake. So imagine I said to you that the $3 hamburger is just the same as the $2 hamburger, and you say, yes, but I just want to buy the $3 hamburger. He would call that perhaps a mental error, but not inertia. And in his paper, he actually tries to tease out how much of it is one versus the other. Tina Marsh Dalton Are you asleep at the wheel versus how much of it is that you like the bright shiny object on the $3 hamburger — or it was presented to you first, and now you just cannot get off that idea? Aaron Yelowitz Yeah, so it’s a hugely influential paper, and it actually matters for the stability of insurance markets. In the canonical model of insurance markets, where you have differently healthy people — some sick people purchasing insurance and some healthy people — if you were to try to charge a premium that averaged over everyone, what we would call a community-rated premium, then the healthy people will often want to escape from the sick people, because basically they’re cross-subsidizing them. That was a big motivation behind the individual mandate in the Affordable Care Act. Tina Marsh Dalton Yeah, I like to say — who likes insurance? Sick people like insurance. Aaron Yelowitz Yes, and it’s a big win for them for community rating. But the typical economic approach would be: well, if people are awake

    Should We Trust Consumers or Bureaucrats with Insurance Choices?  With Dr. Aaron Yelowitz
  3. 06/01/2024

    Pharma's Past, Present and Future: Alex Telford and the progress of better health.

    In today’s pocast, we’re continuing our dive into the question “What is holding healthcare back from creating our best health?”  A key sector bringing us this far? Pharmaceuticals. In this episode, I’d like to introduce you to Alex Telford, a Roots of Progress Fellow, expert in biotech and pharma, and fellow philosopher of life, health, and innovation. What have pharmaceuticals done well and what challenges are they not suited to fix?  Where should we look for our next health revolution?  Let’s ask Alex! Some links we discuss in the episode: Liveware - Alex’s Substack Some awesome posts of Alex’s to check out: Super Mario, scientist - What video game speedrunning can teach us about automating scientific discovery For those of you interested in my art and health work, Aesthetic of Progress-Progress art as harmony between technology and nature. My three essays on this question of “What is holding healthcare back from creating our best health? 1. Why isn’t our current healthcare creating health? -a look at the origins of modern healthcare systems 2. Tips to treat sclerosis of your arteries, ahem, healthcare system - how current financial incentives encourage the overuse of medical care 3. Healthcare Goes to Prevention Camp! – how those paying for prevention are often separated from reaping its benefits Music I use: https://www.bensound.com License code: KJTKRGRAPRQRKVF9 This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit tinamarshdalton.substack.com

    Pharma's Past, Present and Future: Alex Telford and the progress of better health.

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Illuminating the "WHYs" of health care and the economics behind it all- maybe even with optimism and humor! tinamarshdalton.substack.com