It Was What It Was : The Football History Podcast

The Overlap
  • 5.0 (139)
  • Soccer
  • Updated Daily

Welcome to The Overlap's football history podcast, It Was What It Was. Each week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper will be talking about the key episodes in football history that have shaped the footballing world. The show will be discussing the best stories from football's past, giving insights to the personalities involved. the tales from behind the scenes and the impact they left. Join us at Football University! If you enjoy the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

  1. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Four

    11h ago

    Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Four

    To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes. Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson conclude their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win, picking up from the semi-final against Portugal and Eusébio, where Alf Ramsey sticks with Geoff Hurst over the media-favoured Jimmy Greaves and England’s wingless 4-1-3-2 thrives, with Bobby Charlton scoring twice and Jack Charlton’s handball leading to a late penalty. They then set up the final against West Germany, including Ramsey’s instruction for Charlton to sit deeper and nullify Franz Beckenbauer, before revisiting a disjointed 4–2 match shaped by England’s direct play, West Germany’s controversial equaliser, Hurst’s debated goal off the bar, and his hat-trick. The episode also explores Ramsey’s vindication, England’s fitness and planning, and the broader cultural context of Swinging London, post-imperial Britain, and the night of celebrations after victory. 00:00 Doubting Ramsey 00:23 Series Setup 01:04 Semifinal Stakes 02:07 Bobby Charlton Anxiety 05:13 Greaves Or Hurst 07:12 Wingless Wonders Win 08:57 Charlton Double 11:44 Penalty Scare 12:50 Charlton Family Duty 14:53 1966 Life Off Pitch 17:47 Cinema And Trauma 20:13 Final Plan Mark Beckenbauer 22:20 Final Rewatch Context 24:03 Targeting Tilkowski 25:07 Final Goals Breakdown 26:26 German Equaliser Debate 28:13 Ramsey Team Talk Myth 29:26 Ramsey Mind Games 30:08 Fitness Wins Extra Time 30:34 Was It Over The Line 32:52 Pitch Invaders Fourth Goal 33:48 Hurst Becomes Immortal 35:01 Planning Versus Flair 36:52 Ramsey Vindicated 40:19 War Memory And Germany 43:05 Swinging London Soundtrack 45:19 Post Imperial Cool Britannia 50:48 Football Enters Mainstream 54:07 Night Of Celebration 57:05 Legacy And Farewell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    59 min
  2. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Three

    Jun 23

    Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Three

    To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes. Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their series on how England won the 1966 World Cup by focusing on the quarter-final against Argentina, presented as the tournament’s key and most controversial test. They explain Alf Ramsey’s tactical preparation, including hiding his 4-1-3-2 “wingless” system and replacing the injured Jimmy Greaves with the more aerially suited Geoff Hurst. The episode traces Ramsey’s lessons from England’s 1964 South American trip, where Argentina’s pragmatic defensive approach and man-marking shaped his thinking, then sets the fraught 1966 backdrop: referee paranoia, Argentina’s internal chaos and recent coup, and a Wembley training dispute caused by greyhound racing. They dissect Antonio Rattín’s baffling dismissal amid language barriers and unclear bookings, the ugly atmosphere, and England’s 1–0 win through Hurst, before covering the aftermath, including Ramsey’s “animals” remark, protests, bans, fines, and Argentina’s defiant homecoming. 00:00 Setting Up England Argentina 01:23 Ramsey Hides Wingless Wonders 03:16 Hurst Replaces Greaves 05:11 Mundialito Lessons In Brazil 09:47 Argentina Pragmatism And Press Reaction 15:43 Referee Paranoia And FIFA Politics 19:14 Argentina Chaos Before Wembley 22:40 Greyhound Racing And Pre Match Tension 26:32 Match Begins And Footage Limits 29:37 Rattin Booking Sparks Flashpoint 33:57 Booking Confusion Builds 35:06 Rattin Sent Off Mystery 38:40 Interpreter Myth Explained 41:53 Aero Bars and Union Jack 45:25 Who Was Actually Booked 46:06 Press Fury and Fix Claims 51:56 Ten Men Battle On 56:01 England Finally Break Through 57:18 Animals Comment Fallout 01:03:17 Bans Fines and Aftermath Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    1h 5m
  3. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Two

    Jun 16

    Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part Two

    To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes. Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson continue their four-part series on England’s 1966 World Cup win by tracing how Alf Ramsey’s team took shape amid low expectations and press criticism after a 3–2 Wembley loss to Austria. They discuss doubts over the 4-2-4, Bobby Charlton’s role, and growing concerns about Jimmy Greaves’ form, before key friendlies reveal Ramsey’s “wingless wonders” approach: a 4-1-3-2/4-3-3 hybrid showcased in Spain and then unveiled dramatically in Poland with the surprise inclusion of Martin Peters. At the World Cup, Ramsey initially reverts to wingers, drawing 0–0 with Uruguay, then beating Mexico 2–0 via a standout Bobby Charlton strike and France 2–0 with Roger Hunt’s goals. Two shadows emerge: Nobby Stiles’ violent conduct against France and Greaves’ shin injury that rules him out of the quarterfinal, opening the door for Geoff Hurst. 00:00 England Written Off 01:48 Austria Defeat Fallout 04:17 Ramsey Rethinks Tactics 07:47 Greaves Under Scrutiny 10:24 Spain Reveals Wingless Plan 15:08 Poland Test and Peters Shock 20:43 Hiding the System 22:21 World Cup Opener Uruguay 25:49 Uruguay Stalemate Fallout 26:49 Meet J L Manning 28:58 Tactics Jargon Backlash 32:24 Mexico Magic Moment 33:15 Charlton Screamer Breakdown 36:18 France Win And Rotation 39:04 Stiles Controversy And FA Row 42:36 Greaves Injury Hurst Opportunity 44:50 Greaves Debate Luxury Player 50:05 Next Episode And Patreon Plug Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    51 min
  4. Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part One

    Jun 9

    Football's Coming Home: How England Won The 1966 World Cup | Part One

    To listen to the full four-part series instantly, subscribe to our Patreon where listeners can enjoy ad-free listening, our World Cup Wednesdays, bonus editions and live Q&A episodes. Rob Draper and Jonathan Wilson begin a four-part series revisiting England’s 1966 World Cup win by focusing on Sir Alf Ramsey’s background and the conservative England setup he inherited, including the FA selection committee and a poor early World Cup record. They argue Ramsey, often caricatured as dour, was socially conservative and xenophobic but tactically radical, demanding control of selection and modernizing England with a system-focused approach influenced by his Ipswich success, zonal marking, and experiments that questioned traditional wingers. They discuss his reserved personality, class and heritage issues, a reported instance of backing a player convicted of gross indecency, and why blaming 1966 for later English insularity is misguided. Ramsey’s early England results are mixed, but a 1964 Brazil trip helps crystallize his shift away from 4-2-4, and by April 1965 the emerging core includes Banks, Moore, Jack Charlton, and Nobby Stiles. 00:00 Meet Alf Ramsey 01:49 Ipswich Miracle Title 03:28 Ending Selection Committees 05:20 England World Cup Woes 06:50 Dour Yet Radical 09:23 Xenophobia And Origins 14:14 Was 1966 A Curse 17:28 Ramsey Playing Roots 20:36 Ipswich Tactical Experiments 24:38 Brutalism And Football 27:27 Brutalism Meets Football 31:21 Ramsey Blueprint Emerges 33:02 First Camp Shock Therapy 36:43 Early Results and Doubts 40:05 Brazil Trip Reality Check 40:43 Curfew Crackdown 46:16 Tactics Shift and New Spine 47:51 Jack Charlton and Stiles Debut 53:19 Foundations of 1966 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    55 min

  5. Jun 2

    Brazil at the World Cup with Tim Vickery: Pelé, Maracanazo and Ancelotti's New Era

    Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Tim Vickery to discuss the extraordinary story of Brazil at the World Cup. From the ultra-nationalism and hysteria of 1938, to the trauma of the Maracanazo in 1950, and the glorious Pelé years that forged a nation's identity between 1958 and 1970. Vickery traces every Brazilian World Cup campaign. Drawing on his new book Mundiales, Vickery offers a uniquely South American perspective on how the beautiful game's most celebrated nation has wrestled with myth, race, politics, and tactical evolution across nearly a century of football. With the 2026 World Cup on the horizon and Carlo Ancelotti now at the helm, can Brazil rediscover their identity, or has the ghost of 1970 become an impossible standard? 00:00 Introduction — Tim Vickery Joins from Rio 06:30 The Myth of Samba Football 13:00 1938, Radio, and Tropical Nationalism 19:30 1950, The Maracanazo and a Nation's Trauma 27:00 1954, The Battle of Bern and Revenge Football 31:30 1958, Meticulous Planning, Pelé, and Redemption 37:20 The Post-1970 Identity Crisis 41:00 1982, Failure and a Lost Midfield Art 47:00 The Domestic Decline of Brazilian Coaching 49:30 Qatar 2022, Were Brazil Really That Far Off? 52:00 Carlo Ancelotti and the 2026 World Cup Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    56 min

  6. May 26

    The Greatest Champions League Finals of All Time

    Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper pick their six greatest European Cup and Champions League finals of all time. From the 127,000 who stayed to applaud Real Madrid's 7-3 demolition of Eintracht Frankfurt in 1960, to Ajax passing Juventus into submission in 1973 and Pep Guardiola's Barcelona spearheaded by Xavi flying to the title at Wembley in 2011.  Wilson and Draper trace the tactical revolutions, romantic triumphs, and spectacular collapses that defined European football's greatest competition.  With Arsenal facing PSG in this week's Champions League final, will Mikel Arteta join the elite list of managers who have won Europes’s elite competition or will Luis Enrique go back to back with PSG? 00:00 Introduction — Champions League Final Week 06:30 Real Madrid 7-3 Eintracht Frankfurt (1960) 19:20 Ajax 1-0 Juventus (1973) 34:50 AC Milan 4-0 Barcelona (1994)  42:15 Celtic 2-1 Inter Milan (1967)  53:40 Barcelona 3-1 Manchester United (2011)  58:10 Benfica 5-3 Real Madrid (1962)  01:03:20 Why Not 1999 or 2005? — And Can PSG Become an All-Time Great? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    1h 3m
  7. Patreon Bonus Sneak Peek | Inside England: Southgate’s Culture Reset, EPPP and the Tuchel Gamble

    May 22

    Patreon Bonus Sneak Peek | Inside England: Southgate’s Culture Reset, EPPP and the Tuchel Gamble

    Listen to the Full Episode on the IWWIW Patreon here... In this Patreon special of It Was What It Was, Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper speak with Jonathan Northcroft about the updated paperback edition of their Gareth Southgate book, retitled Inside England, which adds four new chapters. They discuss Southgate’s cultural reset, including the Royal Marines camp at Lympstone, and trace the deeper roots of England’s revival through reforms such as EPPP and England DNA, alongside figures like Dan Ashworth, Dave Redding, Trevor Brooking and Greg Dyke’s 2022 World Cup target. They cover how improved youth development, psychology and data-led penalty preparation helped transform England into a resilient tournament team, before assessing Euro 2024’s tactical problems and the FA’s decision to appoint Thomas Tuchel for “wow factor” and elite coaching. They end by weighing concerns about recent friendlies, squad management and camp culture heading into the World Cup. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    16 min

  8. May 19

    Breaking the Old Firm: Fergie's Aberdeen Revolution

    Welcome back to It Was What It Was, the football history podcast. In this week's episode, co-hosts Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper are joined by Michael Grant, Scottish football correspondent for The Times and author of Fergie Rises, to tell the story of how a young Alex Ferguson shattered the Old Firm duopoly and transformed Aberdeen into serial winners. This Episode was recorded before the dramatic showdown on the final day of the SPL season between Celtic and Hearts, but was this just the start of the Hearts story? Will they continue threatening to break the Rangers-Celtic stranglehold for years to come? Wilson, Draper and Grant trace the remarkable parallels with Ferguson's Aberdeen revolution. They explore how a brash 36-year-old manager, fresh from a humiliating tribunal after being sacked by St Mirren, walked into a club that had nearly been relegated two years earlier and forged a dynasty. Along the way, they examine the clashes on the pitch, the psychological scars of Fergie's playing days, the infamous post-cup final rant that still hurts his players 40 years on. Michael Grant reveals the man behind the myth... volatile, funny, manipulative, and utterly relentless. 00:00 Introduction — Hearts, the Old Firm, and Why Fergie Matters Now 06:30 Aberdeen Before Ferguson — Nearly Relegated 12:45 The St Mirren Sacking and the Tribunal 19:20 The Westhill Willy Biters 27:10 Willie Miller and the Power Struggle 34:50 Breaking the Old Firm's Psychological Hold 42:15 Winning the League — 5-0 at Easter Road 48:00 Knocking on Fergie's Door at 3am 53:40 The Liverpool Humiliation 58:10 Fergie's Fury — The Morning After Anfield 01:03:20 Youth Development and Building a Dynasty 01:09:00 The Infamous 1983 Cup Final Rant 01:14:30 Why the Old Firm Were Vulnerable — and can Hearts Can Do It Again? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

    58 min
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Welcome to The Overlap's football history podcast, It Was What It Was. Each week Jonathan Wilson and Rob Draper will be talking about the key episodes in football history that have shaped the footballing world. The show will be discussing the best stories from football's past, giving insights to the personalities involved. the tales from behind the scenes and the impact they left. Join us at Football University! If you enjoy the podcast please hit subscribe to never miss an episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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