Called to the Bar: International Law over Drinks

Douglas Guilfoyle

A podcast of informal conversation about topical issues in international law, life in academia and whatever else is on our mind. Hosted by Douglas Guilfoyle, Juliette McIntyre, Tamsin Paige, Imogen Saunders, and Nitna Tzouvala. Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of Au Lait

  1. 78. Rembering Sir Kenneth Keith

    6d ago

    78. Rembering Sir Kenneth Keith

    In this special episode, the panel reflects on the life, career, and enduring legacy of Sir Kenneth James Keith ONZ KBE KC PC , one of the most influential international lawyers of his generation. Dr Juliette McIntyre is joined by Bill Campbell, Dr Penelope Ridings, and Anne Hertogen to share personal memories of Sir Kenneth and to explore the qualities that made him such a respected figure across academia, government service, law reform, and international adjudication. Through a series of stories—ranging from his generosity towards students and junior colleagues to his intellectual leadership on some of the most significant legal questions of the twentieth and twenty-first centuries—the discussion paints a portrait of a lawyer whose influence extended far beyond his many formal appointments. The conversation examines Sir Kenneth’s remarkable career, including his service on the International Court of Justice, the New Zealand Court of Appeal, the New Zealand Law Commission, and numerous international tribunals and arbitral bodies. The panel considers the distinctive perspective he brought to international adjudication through his combination of scholarly expertise, practical government experience, and judicial service. As always, these are informal conversations, reflecting the personal views of the participants and not those of their institutions. Recommendations: Sir Kenneth's liber amicorum https://teherengawakapress.co.nz/products/seeing-the-world-whole-essays-in-honour-of-sir-kenneth-keith?srsltid=AfmBOorOKjAEkNpCpx8TKB8KsJ2_3lZX1quZiDE4iRpaHVfSCX0-jeR_ His biography: https://www.amazon.com.au/Without-Fear-Favour-Life-Law/dp/1776922190 And here is an image that goes with the whakataukī (proverb) mentioned in discussion: https://natlib.govt.nz/records/22703273. Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of Au Lait

    51 min
  2. 77. International Law in Domestic Courts

    May 26

    77. International Law in Domestic Courts

    In this episode of Called to the Bar: International Law Over Drinks, Imogen Saunders is joined by the Honourable Michael Kirby AC and Christopher Ward SC to discuss the role of international law in Australian domestic courts. Prompted by several recent Australian legal developments involving alleged international crimes and climate litigation, the conversation steps back from the specific cases to ask a broader question: how, and how much, does international law matter in domestic legal systems such as Australia’s? Michael Kirby explains Australia’s dualist tradition, under which international law generally requires domestic incorporation before it becomes directly enforceable in Australian courts. He reflects on the Bangalore Principles, his judicial use of international human rights law, and the continuing debate over whether courts may use international law as a contextual guide when interpreting domestic law. The discussion ranges across cases including Mabo, Al-Kateb, Jago, and Muir, and considers the role of courts in developing the common law in light of international legal principles. Christopher Ward SC brings the perspective of both scholar and practitioner. Drawing on his forthcoming book, International Law and the High Court of Australia, he traces the growing normalisation of international law references in Australian superior courts. He explains how international law informs statutory interpretation, particularly where legislation gives effect to treaty obligations, and discusses the practical implications for lawyers working on matters involving international crimes, foreign state immunity, refugee law, pandemic regulation, and human rights. The episode also considers the interaction between international law and Australian law during the COVID-19 pandemic, including border closures, maritime obligations, aviation rules, and the right of Australian citizens to return to Australia. The guests reflect on the importance of international consistency, the limits of dualism, and the areas where international law may yet play a greater role in Australian domestic law, including human rights, climate change, and juvenile justice. Recommendations and materials discussed include: Christopher Ward, ‘International Law and the High Court of Australia’ (forthcoming June 2026, Melrose Publishing) https://melroselegalpublishers.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/05/ward-978-90-834075-6-2.pdf Al-Kateb v Godwin [2004] HCA 37 with particular reference to the judgments of Kirby J and McHugh J https://www.hcourt.gov.au/sites/default/files/eresources/2004/HCA/37.pdf Muir v The Queen [2004] HCA 21 https://www.hcourt.gov.au/cases-and-judgments/judgments/judgments-1998-current/muir-v-queen Michael Kirby, 'The Road from Bangalore: The First Ten Years of the Bangalore Principles on the Domestic Application of International Human Rights Norms’ https://www.hcourt.gov.au/sites/default/files/assets/publications/speeches/former-justices/kirbyj/kirbyj_bang11.htm Michael Kirby, 'The Australian Use of International Human Rights Norms' (1993) 16(2) UNSW Law Journal 363: https://www.michaelkirby.com.au/images/stories/speeches/1990s/vol28/994-UNSWLJ_-_The_Aus_Use_of_Int_Human_Rights_Norms_-_From_Bangalore_to_Balliol_-_A_View_from_the_Antipodes.pdf Gradidge v Grace Bros (1988) 93 FLR 414 per Kirby P Mabo v Qld [No 2] (1972) 175 CLR 1 Michael Kirby, ’Transnational Judicial Dialogue, Internationalisation of Law and Australian Judges’ (2008) 9 Melbourne Journal of International Law https://law.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/1683186/Kirby.pdf Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of au Lait

    54 min
  3. 76. Intervention before the International Court of Justice

    May 17

    76. Intervention before the International Court of Justice

    In this episode Dr Juliette McIntyre is joined by Professor Beatrice Bonafè (Université Paris Panthéon-Assas) and Dr Matina Papadaki (University of Glasgow) for a lively discussion on one of international law’s most suddenly fashionable procedural topics: intervention before the International Court of Justice. From the once-obscure provisions of Articles 62 and 63 of the ICJ Statute to the recent explosion of intervention requests in contentious proceedings, the conversation explores how and why third states seek to participate in cases before the Court. Along the way, the episode unpacks the distinction between intervention “as of right” and intervention by request, the historical underuse of these mechanisms, and the remarkable procedural shift visible in recent genocide litigation and other high-profile disputes. Beatrice and Matina reflect on the practical and conceptual tensions underpinning intervention practice, including transparency, procedural fairness, judicial administration, and the relationship between procedure and substance in international adjudication. The discussion also turns to academic life and career pathways into international law, with both guests sharing the winding journeys that led them from Athens, Rome, Geneva, Copenhagen and beyond to their current positions in Paris and Glasgow. Recommendations: Juliette McIntyre, ‘Procedural Values in the Intervention Procedure at the International Court of Justice’ [2022] Ukrainian Law Review Beatrice I. Bonafè, ‘Impacts of substance on procedure: Genocide litigation before the ICJ’ [2025] Questions of International Law Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of au Lait

    1h 8m
  4. 75. State Immunity: Sovereignty, Accountability, and the Greek Perspective

    May 9

    75. State Immunity: Sovereignty, Accountability, and the Greek Perspective

    In this episode of Called to the Bar: International Law Over Drinks, Tamsin Phillipa Paige (Deakin) and Imogen Saunders (ANU) are joined by Dimitrios A. Kourtis (Aristotle University of Thessaloniki) to discuss his new book, The Development and Application of the International Law of State Immunity: The Greek Perspective. The conversation begins with a rich reflection on Dimitrios’ intellectual journey into international law - from rural central Greece to the study of genocide, sovereignty, and international criminal law - before turning to the doctrine of state immunity itself. What does it mean for one state to be immune from the jurisdiction of another state’s courts? Why has immunity historically been understood as an expression of sovereign equality? And how have these principles evolved in response to human rights claims, reparations litigation, and contemporary demands for accountability? Drawing on the Greek experience, the episode explores how a so-called “semi-peripheral” state has played an unexpectedly significant role in shaping debates around jurisdictional immunity, enforcement immunity, and the relationship between sovereignty and justice. Along the way, the panel unpacks major doctrinal tensions, historical controversies, and the enduring question of whether immunity protects international order, or shields power from scrutiny. Recommendations: The Development and Application of the International Law of State Immunity: The Greek Perspective, https://www.sakkoulas.gr/en/editions/d-kourtis-the-development-and-application-of-the-international-law-of-state-immunity-2025/ Recipe Tin Eats: https://www.recipetineats.com/ Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of au Lait

    1h 7m
  5. 74. Isis Brides: Children of Nowhere and the Limits of Citizenship

    May 2

    74. Isis Brides: Children of Nowhere and the Limits of Citizenship

    In this episode Associate Professor Imogen Saunders is joined by Dr Rumyana van Ark and Professor Kim Rubenstein to discuss citizenship, security, and the rights of children in the context of Australians held in camps in North East Syria. Prompted by recent debate over the so-called “ISIS brides”, the conversation asks what citizenship means when citizens are abroad, what obligations states owe to their nationals, and how those questions become even more urgent when children are involved. Kim Rubenstein explains the uncertain place of citizenship in Australian constitutional law, the limits of diplomatic protection, and the dangers of using citizenship deprivation as a tool of punishment or security policy. Rumyana van Ark examines the position of children in the camps through the lens of international children’s rights, counter-terrorism law, and the practical consequences of prolonged detention, repatriation delays, and statelessness. Together, they explore the uneasy relationship between national security and human rights; the vulnerability of dual citizens; the gendered and racialised dimensions of citizenship stripping; and the risks of treating children associated with foreign fighters as security threats rather than rights holders. The episode also reflects on “security populism”, the limits of existing international legal frameworks, and why repatriation, prosecution where appropriate, rehabilitation, and reintegration may be not only more rights-compliant, but also better security policy. Recommendations: ‘Security and Human Rights’ (2nd ed.) by Benjamin J Goold and Liora Lazarus (eds.)(https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/security-and-human-rights-9781849467308/) ‘Europe’s Guantanamo: The indefinite detention of European women and children in North East Syria’, Rights & Security International (https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/children-s-rights-foreign-fighters-counter-terrorism-9781800377110.html) ‘Children’s Rights, ‘Foreign Fighters’, Counter-Terrorism: Children of Nowhere’ by Rumyana van Ark, Devyani Prabhat and Faith Gordon (https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/children-s-rights-foreign-fighters-counter-terrorism-9781800377110.html) 'Allegiance and Identity in a Globalised World’ by edited Fiona Jenkins, Mark Nolan and Kim Rubenstein (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/allegiance-and-identity-in-a-globalised-world/allegiance-and-identity-in-a-globalised-world) Kim Rubenstien and Niamh Lenagh-Maguire, 'More or less secure? Nationality questions, deportation and dual nationality’ (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/nationality-and-statelessness-under-international-law/more-or-less-secure-nationality-questions-deportation-and-dual-nationality) 'The vulnerability of dual citizenship in Australia | Kim Rubenstein | TEDxFulbrightCanberra’ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51B8aA1UCWM) Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of au lait

    1h 10m
  6. 73. Blockade and the Strait of Hormuz: Do Two Closeds Make an Open?

    Apr 25

    73. Blockade and the Strait of Hormuz: Do Two Closeds Make an Open?

    In this episode Juliette McIntyre (Adelaide University) is joined by Phillip Drew (Queen’s University Centre for International and Defence Policy) alongside in-house maritime law specialists Tamsin Phillipa Paige (Deakin) and Douglas Guilfoyle (UNSW Canberra) to tackle a suddenly urgent topic: naval blockade. What exactly is a blockade in international law, and when is it lawful? The panel traces the doctrine from its historical roots to its modern regulation under the law of naval warfare, where blockades remain a recognised, but tightly constrained, act of war requiring effectiveness, notification, and impartiality toward neutral shipping . From there, the discussion turns to current events, including the US blockade of Iran and Iran's attempt to close the Strait of Hormuz, raising difficult questions about freedom of navigation, the legality of closing international straits, and the broader implications for the global trading system. Recommendations: - Drew, The Law of Maritime Blockade: Past, Present, and Future, https://academic.oup.com/book/11044 - The Newport Manual on the Law of Naval Warfare, https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/ils/vol101/iss1/1/ - The San Remo Manual on Armed Conflicts at Sea, https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/san-remo-manual-1994 - Guilfoyle, The Mavi Marmara Incident and Blockade in Armed Conflict https://doi.org/10.1093/bybil/brr002 Sound editing: Jamie Guilfoyle Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of au lait

    59 min
  7. 72. Assassinations: law, targetting and the changing nature of war

    Apr 19

    72. Assassinations: law, targetting and the changing nature of war

    In this episode of Called to the Bar: International Law Over Drinks, Tamsin Phillipa Paige (Deakin Law School) and Douglas Guilfoyle (UNSW Canberra) are joined by Alonso Gurmendi Dunkelberg (LSE) and Emma Lush (University of Adelaide) to unpack the legal status of assassination in contemporary warfare and statecraft. From Cold War plots to modern drone strikes, the panel explores the apparent resurgence of targeted killing as a tool of state power. What explains this shift? How has the logic of war changed in an era of precision targeting, AI, and pre-identified “target lists”? And does the law meaningfully constrain these practices? The discussion moves across key legal frameworks, including the UN Charter’s prohibition on the use of force, the threshold for armed attack, and the rules of international humanitarian law governing targeting. Along the way, the episode interrogates blurred lines between peace and war, the expansion of lawful targets, and the troubling implications of a model of conflict where violence is increasingly individualized and pre-programmed.

    1h 7m
  8. 71. Prosecuting Aggression: Building a Special Tribunal for Ukraine

    Apr 9

    71. Prosecuting Aggression: Building a Special Tribunal for Ukraine

    In this episode of Called to the Bar: International Law Over Drinks, Dr Juliette McIntyre is joined by Mykola Yurlov (Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs) and Mark Ellis (International Bar Association) to unpack one of the most ambitious current projects in international criminal law: the proposed Special Tribunal for the Crime of Aggression against Ukraine. Blending personal insight with institutional perspective, the conversation traces the rapid emergence of the tribunal idea following Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022, and the legal gap it seeks to fill. While the International Criminal Court remains central to global accountability efforts, its jurisdictional limits over aggression have prompted states and legal practitioners to explore alternative mechanisms—reviving, in many respects, a form of accountability not seen since Nuremberg. The discussion explores how the tribunal is being constructed in practice: from the role of the Council of Europe and the “core group” of states, to difficult negotiations over immunities, jurisdiction, and the possibility of trials in absentia. The episode also addresses institutional tensions, including early resistance from within the ICC system, and the broader political sensitivities of targeting senior state leadership. Recommendations: "An Anxious Generation": https://www.penguin.com.au/books/the-anxious-generation-9781802063271 "UN Charter - 5 Pillars": https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-3-031-94866-4 Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of au lait

    57 min
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About

A podcast of informal conversation about topical issues in international law, life in academia and whatever else is on our mind. Hosted by Douglas Guilfoyle, Juliette McIntyre, Tamsin Paige, Imogen Saunders, and Nitna Tzouvala. Music: Sam Barsh, Oils of Au Lait

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