The Hotfix Podcast

The Hotfix Podcast

Stories from product leaders and unfiltered truths about products that failed. 💥 Made with ❤️ by Christoph & Stefan thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

  1. The Optimistic Case for PMs in an Agentic World

    FEB 18

    The Optimistic Case for PMs in an Agentic World

    A few weeks ago, Stefan and I debated whether PMs need to become builders. We agreed. Then we had a heated WhatsApp argument and realized we disagree on something fundamental: Will agents make the PM role obsolete, or will they create the golden age of product management? Stefan believes the 100-person software company will become a one-person company within three to five years. I think the work changes, but the core skill, understanding humans and their problems, stays. We decided to argue it out on the podcast. Here is what we landed on. The case for extinction Stefan joined an AI-first startup three months ago. Everyone there uses AI for 95% of their work. The compounding effect is real: when the entire team operates this way, speed multiplies. When only one person does it, they are bottlenecked by everyone else. His experience with OpenClaw pushed his thinking further. He gave it tasks he assumed it could not complete. It found creative solutions on its own. Research that used to take him hours, such as cross-referencing analytics tools, downloading CSVs, running analysis, now takes a single prompt. His conclusion: if a solo developer can ship a working product from a WhatsApp chat, most of the coordination work PMs do will disappear. Companies that don’t adopt this speed will lose to companies that do. And those fast companies are small by definition. The case for survival I recently built DocReady, an app that helps Austrian doctors categorize tax documents. I built the entire product solo. Website, iOS app, web app, ads. The code part was impressive, sure. But it solved maybe 5% of the problem. The hard part is acquisition and activation. How do I let doctors know this exists? How do I make them use a tax preparation app regularly (for a task they hate)? One of my beta users told me she didn’t see why she should use DocReady instead of her Google Drive. She already had a system. This single conversation changed my product strategy. I realized I needed to extract structured data from documents, not just store them. That insight opens the door to Excel exports, spending dashboards, reminders, summaries. No agent would have made that strategic observation from a user interview. Not yet. Where we actually agree The PM role as defined in 2020 is dead. The person who writes tickets, manages backlogs, and coordinates standups will be replaced. That work is pure overhead in a world where agents handle execution. But the core skill, talking to customers, understanding their real problems, and translating that into product decisions, is more valuable than ever. Execution is cheap now. Context is expensive. We also agree that customer success managers, implementation specialists, and support agents are equally well-equipped for this new world. They’ve had direct customer conversations for years. They just lacked the power to act on what they learned. Agents give them that power. The PM title might survive. The PM job description won’t. The golden age of tiny companies Stefan made a point that stuck with me. If a single person can build and ship a hyper-specialized agent, say, one that handles support for Shopify stores selling sneakers, they could replace a company’s entire support team and their SaaS stack. A company spending 100k a year on humans and tools might happily pay 50k for an agent that handles everything. That is SaaS, just built by one person instead of a hundred. These companies won’t attract VC money. A 10 million ARR ceiling is boring for investors. But for a solo builder, 10 million a year is life-changing. And there will be thousands of these niche opportunities. The interface changes everything Stefan now does half his work through a WhatsApp chat with his agent. He vibe-codes, debugs deployments, and runs research. All from his phone. He took a three-hour bath and felt more productive than any day at his desk. I use multiple AI subscriptions for different tasks. I brainstorm complex strategy through my phone. When I bought a house recently, I resolved hundreds of questions through an LLM. I felt more secure and informed than I ever expected. The medium has changed. The screen-and-keyboard era is ending for many types of knowledge work. Agent monitoring might happen from a chat interface on your phone. People might not need to sit in front of a computer for their entire workday anymore. What PMs should do right now Forget most product frameworks. They were optimized for a world that no longer exists. Rebuilding an entire app was a crazy idea a year ago. Now it’s not anymore. Stay at the frontier. If you know what the latest agent tools can do, you are already ahead of most people in tech. If you tried vibe coding once in early 2024 and gave up, try again. The gap between then and now is enormous. Be the crazy person. Take risks. The likelihood of a positive outcome is higher than it was six months ago. The worst thing you can do is assume that the way you worked for the past ten years will keep working. And most importantly: be curious. This is the first technology shift in years that is not just hype. Everyone can feel how their job is changing. The people who lean into that change will build the next generation of products. It has never been this exciting to be in product. Even if the job title changes. Links Link to Podcast Episode * 🎥 YouTube * 🎧 Spotify * 🎧 Apple Music In case you want to reach out, please do so on LinkedIn: * 🔥 Follow Hotfix: https://pod.link/the-hotfix-podcast * 🔗 Follow Christoph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophbodenstein/ * 🔗 Follow Stefan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefanpernek/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    39 min
  2. #018: Can Legacy Software Companies Become AI-native?

    JAN 22

    #018: Can Legacy Software Companies Become AI-native?

    A few months ago, we talked about how AI would change the way software gets built, and at the time it still felt like something slightly abstract, interesting to think about but not yet forcing immediate decisions. That has changed. AI-native companies are now shipping faster, with fewer people, and at a fundamentally different cost structure, and they are no longer operating in a separate experimental space but competing head-on with established SaaS companies. The question is no longer whether this matters, but whether existing organizations can adapt fast enough. What AI-native actually means AI-native does not mean that a company has added AI features to an existing product or sprinkled AI into a few workflows. It means the company could not have been founded before this wave of AI, because the way work gets done would simply not have been possible. In these companies, the first line of code is written by an agent, documentation and contracts start with AI drafts, research and support replies are generated by default, and humans mainly step in to review, correct, and provide direction. Using AI is not a strategic decision anymore; avoiding it requires justification. Why this is hard for legacy companies Most legacy software companies are not badly run, and the structures they operate with were rational responses to the constraints of the past. They hired large engineering teams because building software was slow and expensive, they introduced product managers to translate customer needs into specifications, and they added layers of coordination because that was the only way to scale delivery reliably. AI changes one thing fundamentally: the cost and speed of translating customer intent into working software. What used to require weeks of alignment, handoffs, and planning now often happens within hours, but organizations are still optimized for the old reality. The people problem AI-native companies hire very differently from traditional SaaS organizations. They delay hiring for as long as possible, prioritize people who can both think and build, and try to avoid roles whose primary purpose is coordination rather than value creation. Legacy companies already have many of those roles in place. As a result, pushing AI adoption often means questioning why certain jobs exist at all, which is uncomfortable, politically difficult, and often avoided, leading transformation efforts to slow down or stall entirely. Distribution isn’t enough anymore Established companies often argue that their main advantage lies in distribution, and historically that has been true. However, AI-native companies operate with a cost structure that allows them to price their products very differently, because a team of ten can now compete with what previously required a team of one hundred. That pricing flexibility itself becomes a powerful distribution mechanism, and it is extremely difficult to out-market a product that is cheaper, improves faster, and is built by a much leaner organization. Product management changes the most The role that changes most visibly in AI-native companies is product management. Product managers are no longer primarily facilitators or coordinators, but builders who combine customer understanding with the ability to turn insights directly into working software. They talk to customers in the morning, prototype during the day, and often ship something meaningful by the evening, which causes discovery and delivery to collapse into a single continuous motion. This strongly favors people who deeply understand customers and can act immediately, while it puts pressure on roles that exist mainly to coordinate work between others. Fewer people, more context As execution becomes cheaper, context becomes more valuable. The most important assets of future software companies are the codebase itself, rich and ongoing customer conversations, and clearly written strategy, constraints, and decision principles that guide both humans and AI systems. AI systems need this context to act well, and humans do too, which creates a new leadership responsibility focused less on managing output and more on maintaining shared clarity. Can legacy companies win? In theory, legacy companies have everything they need to compete. They have distribution, long-standing customer relationships, and people with deep domain knowledge who understand the problems better than any newcomer. If they manage to radically reduce coordination overhead, turn product managers and engineers into customer-centric builders, and accept smaller, more empowered teams, they can remain competitive. In practice, this is rare, not because leaders are incompetent, but because the organizations they built were optimized for constraints that no longer exist. What stays true Despite all the change, some fundamentals remain. Customer understanding still compounds over time, clear strategy still matters, and good judgment is still scarce. What disappears is the need to scale through headcount. Software companies will likely become smaller again, not simpler, but leaner, and very different from what most of us are used to. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    38 min
  3. #017: Product Management in 2025: What Broke, What Stayed, What Matters

    12/30/2025

    #017: Product Management in 2025: What Broke, What Stayed, What Matters

    Seven months ago, we talked about how product management was changing. We focused on discovery over delivery and outcomes over outputs. These topics felt urgent then. Now they’ve faded into the background. AI has taken center stage. And this shift is justified. Canva disrupted design. Shopify disrupted e-commerce. AI is doing the same to product management. The way product management was done six months ago will not exist in the future. At least not in most companies. The PM as builder AI coding agents have become so good that every product manager needs to evolve. The shift goes from facilitator and communicator to builder. Not just building prototypes to validate. Actually touching code and shipping features. This was only enabled in the last two or three months. Before that, AI wasn’t capable of it. Now even semi-technical people can ship features on their own. Six months ago, most PMs used AI for writing and discovery. Bouncing ideas back and forth with ChatGPT. Now we spend hours in tools like Lovable or Claude Code. Creating things that go beyond clickable prototypes. The old way: Sit with designers in Figma. Create linear prototypes where only one button works. A yellow highlight shows which element is clickable. This took three weeks. The new way: Have an idea in the morning. By afternoon, have something that feels like production. Everything is clickable. Actions happen in the background. Hand it to a developer and they can turn it into production code in a fraction of the time. The death of the feature delivery pipeline Claude Code blew me away when I started using it. It feels optimized for product managers. Like working with a senior engineer who checks in at the right time. When planning a new feature, it spends 10-15 minutes exploring the code base. Finding out what needs to be touched. Then it launches a planning agent. Comes up with a comprehensive plan for review. This is exactly how great engineers worked before. They surfaced risks. They surfaced increased costs. They suggested what should be a follow-up feature versus what to build now. The old feature delivery pipeline looked like this: PM talks to customers. Forms an idea. Prioritizes it. Does a first check-in with UX. Works on wireframes for two weeks. Checks feasibility with the tech lead. It doesn’t work. Back to the drawing board. Six weeks of coordination overhead. Then six weeks of implementation. This is already outdated. Rethinking the feature delivery pipeline will be one of the biggest challenges for organizations in 2026. Teams have to change In a company with eight engineers per product manager, the PM can only be a facilitator. A communicator. Someone who makes sure everyone works toward the same thing. If engineers get faster with AI tools, this coordination work only increases. Andrew Ng, founder of Coursera, recently suggested his team is moving to two product managers per engineer. More PMs than engineers. Six months ago, this would have sounded insane. But delivery is no longer the bottleneck. Before, there was a clear cut. PMs focused on discovery. Engineers focused on delivery. Sometimes in forward-thinking organizations, engineers did some discovery too. But PMs rarely touched delivery. Now the lines blur. While doing discovery, you can already deliver. Talk to a customer in the morning. Understand an insight. Prototype something during the call. Polish it in the afternoon. Push to production by evening. Discovery and delivery happen in the same motion. The risk of feature soup If everyone can deliver quickly, the risk of Frankenstein platforms increases. Products that don’t make sense anymore. Features piled on features without a clear thread. Organizations without a clear vision will have a hard time if they enable everyone to be builders. Products need to become more specialized. The old economics didn’t justify building a product with an ICP of 10,000 people. Now it does. But this requires discipline. Stick to a strategy. Don’t pivot every quarter. Otherwise you pile up features that become hard to maintain. Not just technically. Also organizationally, contractually, and when onboarding new people. Feature bloat without strategy is one of the biggest risks ahead. Distribution becomes the differentiator Before AI, success required a pyramid. The lowest level: ability to build. You needed engineers or money. This level is completely gone. Second level: having a great product. Simple, solving the right problems, intuitive, accessible. Third level: distribution. This was always there. But it’s becoming the main differentiator. What Shopify did to e-commerce is what AI will do to software. Building a good product is no longer a competitive advantage. It’s the ultimate baseline. A fitness instructor working at 10 different fitness centers has access to 200 potential customers. That’s an unfair advantage. They can test their app. If it’s good, word of mouth spreads. The skills that will matter for product managers: networking, sales, messaging, and marketing. When aligning with engineers about feasibility becomes less relevant, focus shifts to business fundamentals. The ability to create something great is not as valuable anymore. It was very valuable a year ago. What’s next Predicting the future is hard. Seven months ago, the rate of change felt crazy. It was even crazier than expected. Small improvements compound into fundamental shifts. Prompting was the hot topic six months ago. Now the hottest topic is keeping the most relevant context without having to retype it. In six months, we’ll probably laugh about manually attaching screenshots. People overestimate what can be achieved in the short term. They underestimate what can be achieved in the long term. A lot has changed. But it has never been more exciting to work in product and software. Links Link to Podcast Episode * 📹 YouTube * 🔊 Spotify * 🔊 Apple Music In case you want to reach out, please do so on LinkedIn: * ❤️🩹 Follow Hotfix: https://pal.bio/the-hotfix-podcast * 🎙️ Follow Christoph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophbodenstein/ * 🎙️ Follow Stefan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefan-pernek-629901107/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    42 min
  4. #016: What makes a great PM in the era of AI?

    07/08/2025

    #016: What makes a great PM in the era of AI?

    Product management has never been an easy job. But the rise of AI has changed the rules and raised the bar. In this post, we unpack what separates good PMs from great ones today, and why AI will amplify that gap even further. The 6 Core Traits of Great PMs We started the conversation by listing the timeless traits we’ve seen in standout product managers. * They own problems, not features.Great PMs don’t stop when something is shipped. They stop when the underlying problem is solved. * They think in outcomes, not outputs.Great PMs don’t care too much about building the thing right. They care about building the right thing and they know how to measure its impact. * They think beyond the sprint.Strong PMs can zoom out. They hold a strategic roadmap in their head and adjust it as they learn more. * They collaborate across the product trio.They work deeply with UX and engineering to manage the four product risks: value, usability, feasibility, and viability. * They ship.Strategy without execution is just a deck. Great PMs reliably get things into users’ hand. * They’re curious.Curiosity is what drives the best PMs to go beyond the backlog. They explore ideas no one asked for. They chase problems no one sees yet. The Hard Skills That Can’t Be Skipped We also added some harder skills that separate truly high-performing PMs: * Data literacy.Not just reading dashboards, but understanding bias, false positives, and what your metrics really mean. * Business acumen.Knowing how your company makes money, what gross vs. net revenue retention is, and how to influence key drivers. * Being easy to work with.Saying no without creating drama. Collaborating with sales and CS without becoming a feature factory. This isn’t “fluffy”, it’s critical. So What’s Changing with AI? Here’s the big shift: AI lowers the floor but raises the ceiling. What gets easier: * Writing specs * Generating test cases * Creating dashboards * Synthesizing user interviews What becomes more dangerous: * Jumping to conclusions from data you don’t really understand * Delegating product sense to a prompt * Acting “strategic” without doing the hard thinking What AI can’t do: * Understand the messy reality of your customers * Discover the root of a real problem * Own a business outcome and make it move As Stefan put it: “AI won’t replace PMs. But it will replace the ones who were never really doing the job.” Why Thinking in Outcomes Is Still Rare One of our favorite heuristics: If you haven’t thought about something you launched in the past 2 weeks, you’re probably not outcome-driven. Most PMs live in the future and about what’s next on the roadmap, what’s being released. But very few revisit the past.They treat launches as finish lines. Great PMs treat them as checkpoints. The New Bar for Entry (and Why Juniors Will Struggle) One hard truth we discussed: AI may kill the junior PM role. Entry-level PMs often relied on manual tasks writing tickets, transcribing interviews, summarizing feedback. But those can now be done by AI. This raises the bar for getting into product. But it also creates new adjacent roles: * Setting up AI tools for discovery and prototyping * Creating the infrastructure for prompt-driven interfaces * Curating and structuring data that AI can use Final Thoughts PMs who want to thrive in this new era need to embrace one big idea: You can’t outsource product sense. AI will accelerate your work. But it won’t do the work for you. In fact, it will expose anyone faking it. If you want to stay great: * Stay close to customers * Learn how your business makes money * Think in problems, not projects * Use AI—but don’t hide behind it And most of all: stay curious. Links Link to Podcast Episode * 📹 YouTube * 🔊 Spotify * 🔊 Apple Music In case you want to reach out, please do so on LinkedIn: * ❤️🩹 Follow Hotfix: https://pal.bio/the-hotfix-podcast * 🎙️ Follow Christoph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophbodenstein/ * 🎙️ Follow Stefan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefan-pernek-629901107/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    38 min
  5. 06/10/2025

    #015: Will PMs, Designers, and Engineers All Merge Into One?

    In our latest Hotfix episode, Stefan and I explored an uncomfortable question:Are we entering an era where a single person can do the job of an entire product team? Today’s standard setup looks like this: One PM, one Designer, a few Engineers. Clear swim lanes. Frequent alignment. But with AI-native tools like V0, Lovable, and Cursor, the lines are starting to blur. You can build, design, and ship something functional—in days. Without handovers. Without standups. Without a trio. What We’re Seeing: * PMs are suddenly able to prototype full UIs—without Figma. * Designers are writing front-end code. * Engineers are validating ideas with customers—on their own. And maybe most important: The best teams already don’t care whose job something “officially” is. So… What Changes? Stefan believes we’re moving toward “teams of one.” People who ideate, validate, build, and ship solo—with a swarm of AI agents supporting them. I pushed back. Time—not skill—is still the bottleneck. Especially in product roles. Aligning teams, talking to customers, and managing messy orgs isn’t something AI is good at… yet. But we agreed on this:The strongest teams of the future will be generalists—not specialists. People who can think across UX, code, and business. Not deep experts in one swim lane. Who Should Be Worried? 🛑 If you only know how to execute what others define—your job is at risk.✅ If you’re curious across disciplines and willing to get your hands dirty—you’ll be fine. Better than fine, actually. Because the bar is rising. Fast. 🎧 Full episode: Hotfix 015 – Will PMs, Designers, and Engineers All Merge Into One?Available on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube. Links Link to Podcast Episode * 📹 YouTube * 🔊 Spotify * 🔊 Apple Music In case you want to reach out, please do so on LinkedIn: * ❤️🩹 Follow Hotfix: https://pal.bio/the-hotfix-podcast * 🎙️ Follow Christoph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophbodenstein/ * 🎙️ Follow Stefan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefan-pernek-629901107/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    50 min
  6. 04/29/2025

    #014 w/ Roshan Gupta: Millions of Users. Still a Failure. The Story behind Google Allo.

    Roshan is the founder of AmplifyPM. Prev. he served as PM at Meta and as a Group PM at Google. Roshan Gupta had the kind of job most PMs dream of: Group Product Manager at Google, leading a 300-person org. Then, he gave it all up. He moved to Portugal and started a one-person company, betting everything on a single idea: PMs don’t fail because of their strategy—they fail because they can’t tell a compelling story. This episode is about two things: * The slow, painful death of Google Allo (yes, that failed messaging app). * And what Roshan thinks is the #1 skill every PM should master: persuasive storytelling. The Messaging App That Was Doomed From the Start If you don’t remember Google Allo, you’re not alone. It launched in 2016, promised rich messaging, Google Assistant integration, and sleek features. But it never took off. Roshan, who led Allo’s growth, breaks it down simply: “We had a great product. What we didn’t have was distribution.” Allo was competing with WhatsApp in India—a market where SMS used to cost real money, and WhatsApp had already solved that pain. Meanwhile, Allo had to fight its way into phones one by one, even though Google already had Android Messages pre-installed. They tried everything: * SMS relays from a central number (which confused people) * Bundling with Android manufacturers * Targeting specific markets * Google Assistant baked into the app None of it worked fast enough. And at Google’s scale, millions of users just isn’t enough. “Our growth outpaced Snapchat’s early years. But for Google, it wasn’t fast enough.” In 2018, the team was told to pause development. In 2019, Allo was shut down. Why Storytelling Is the Most Underrated PM Skill Roshan's biggest takeaway wasn’t about messaging apps. It was about people. Specifically, how PMs fail to communicate the value of their work. “There were amazing PMs at Google who didn’t get promoted—not because they didn’t do great work, but because they couldn’t persuade the org.” Roshan says great storytelling comes down to three things: * Clarity – Say one thing, not ten. “Adding more info is like adding water to wine.” * Compelling – Tie your story to something your audience wants. No one changes unless they want to. * Credibility – If people don’t trust you, your story won’t land. Trust is built over time, not in a single meeting. The Spicy Take: PMs Are Bad at Growing PMs Roshan’s new mission is to coach PMs into leadership. And he’s frustrated by how little companies invest in it: “You wouldn’t question an Olympic athlete hiring a coach. But in product, it’s seen as a weakness if you need one.” He argues we’re doing a terrible job building the next generation of leaders. Why? * Most PM skill matrices are vague or unreadable. * There’s no clear roadmap for how to level up. * And storytelling, stakeholder management, and positioning often go completely uncoached. His fix? Amplify PM, a coaching business that helps ICs step into leadership roles—without fluff. The Final Lesson Allo failed. But Roshan didn’t. He moved on to lead Google Messages. Then, he walked away to do something that mattered more to him: teaching others how to lead. And if there’s one thing he hopes more PMs remember, it’s this: “Being comfortable with failure is what lets you take the risks that actually lead to growth.” Links Link to Podcast Episode * 📹 YouTube * 🔊 Spotify * 🔊 Apple Music In case you want to reach out, please do so on LinkedIn: * ❤️🩹 Follow Hotfix: https://pal.bio/the-hotfix-podcast * 🎙️ Follow Christoph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophbodenstein/ * 🎙️ Follow Stefan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefan-pernek-629901107/ * This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    43 min
  7. 04/15/2025

    #013 w/ Nesrine Changuel: The story behind Apple reactions in Google Meet

    Nesrine was a Senior PM at Google, Spotify and Microsoft. She’s now a product coach and will be releasing her first book on how to infuse emotional connections into product design by the end of March! In our conversation, Nesrine shared a surprising “failure story” from her time on the Google Meet team. Nesrine’s failure story Nesrine was working on Google Meet as a PM, when COVID broke out. You sure can imagine how intense that time must have been for the team. One day, suddenly a lot of users started complaining. About a new feature that created fireworks and celebratory effects in inappropriate situations. These could have been triggered by raising a thumb for example. In case you’re an Apple user you might have seen them: What wasn’t clear to all users at that time was that this was not a feature from Google Meet. Google didn’t build this fireworks feature. Apple did. Apple’s operating system update enabled these reactions by default, so users naturally blamed Google Meet. The situation sounds like a small thing, but one shouldn’t forget that Google’s products are reaching 100s of millions of users and this impacted core functionality of Google Meet. That means that these reaction were triggered in very inappropriate situations, such as therapy sessions or high-stakes corporate calls. Triggering random fireworks in such situations was anything but delightful. What started as an innocent attempt to introduce delight (from Apple’s side) turned into a big escalation for the Google Meet product team. As soon as the team realized how intrusive and potentially harmful these auto-reactions could be, they tried to explain that this was not a native Google Meet feature and advised users how to turn it off on their Macs. A lesson in how to create product delight Creating product delight is generally a topic that Nesrine cares deeply about. That’s why she also dedicated a full book to it, that will be out soon! Below are a couple of her key takeaways on product delight: * Product delight creates an emotional connection between users and the product Product delight is created when a product meets its intended purpose (functionality) while exceeding user expectations. * Usually not quantifiable Investing into delightful features is often not measurable or quantifiable. Integrating playful animations or fun features often doesn’t solve a problem and therefore won’t move any needle in the short term. We btw dedicated a full article + podcast on problem-free product work, in which we also covered UX deligthers: https://thehotfixpodcast.substack.com/p/006-does-every-feature-need-to-solve. Nesrine argues though that emotional features often take longer to show a direct impact on revenue or retention. That means that PMs need to be more patient in measuring usage patterns, and watch loyalty indicators (like referrals and advocacy). * Delight = Joy + Surprise In our podcast Nesrine shared a definition of Delight. A truly delightful feature combines surprise and joy. A feature that is only surprising—or only joyful—can end up being distracting or disappointing. * Prioritize with a balance Product teams should ideally aim for a balanced combination of Low, Surface, and Deep Delight features in their product roadmap to ensure both functional needs are met and users are emotionally engaged. Nesrine’s arguments on why it makes sense to invest into delighting customers reminded me of this graphic by Casey Winters, that shows why constant UX investments enable companies to keep product-market fit: The gist is that customer expectations keep increasing as the bar for average software is being raised constantly. And competitors also won’t stay still. That means once companies stop investing into UX work they might lose their product-market fit. What Else We Talked About * Functional vs. Emotional Features Nesrine explains why some top-performing products (e.g., Spotify Wrapped, Duolingo streaks, Slack’s whimsy) thrive because they provide emotional benefits beyond core functionality. * B2B Can—and Should—Delight Even Jira, the quintessential enterprise tool, invests in delight. Users are humans, regardless of the “B2B” label. Emotional touch points in B2B products can be a massive differentiator. * Motivational Interviewing Instead of directly asking users about “problems,” Nesrine recommends deep, open-ended discovery that uncovers hidden emotional drivers. * Start Small and Scale You don’t need to overhaul your product overnight. Dedicate a small percentage of your roadmap each quarter to try simple, delightful additions. Track how your users respond before expanding further. Links Link to Podcast Episode * 📹 YouTube * 🔊 Spotify * 🔊 Apple Music In case you want to reach out, please do so on LinkedIn: * ❤️‍🩹 Follow Hotfix: https://pal.bio/the-hotfix-podcast * 🎙️ Follow Christoph: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christophbodenstein/ * 🎙️ Follow Stefan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefan-pernek-629901107/ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    38 min
  8. 04/01/2025

    #012 w/ Trisha Price: We Spent Years on an AI Feature—And Still Got It Wrong

    Trisha is the CPO of Pendo.io, one of the most widely used product experience platforms. Trisha brought us a gem of a failure story. Her team has been working on a powerful machine learning future for a long time. The feature was aimed at answering one question: What are the features that drive user retention? Trisha’s failure story Over the years, Pendo had gathered mountains of product usage data, such as clicks, sessions, outcomes. They even knew which users stayed and which churned. So the idea was to build a machine learning model that identifies what behaviors drive long-term retention. Early results were promising. Some insights made total sense (“creating shared dashboards” was a big one). Others were… surprisingly boring (“visiting the settings page” meant high retention - obvious for administrators). Still, the team pressed on. They iterated on the interface. They brought in new designers. Even the CEO jumped in. But no matter how much effort they put in, something wasn’t working. “We got it wrong. We got it wrong. We got it wrong again.” —Trisha Price, CPO @ Pendo Eventually, they launched it. And while some users did get value from the feature, adoption was low. Most PMs loved the idea—they just didn’t come back to use it. Trisha and her team were left scratching their heads. Was it the UI? Was it the model? Was it just… too static? Turns out, just knowing which feature drives retention isn’t enough. It needs to be timely, actionable, and trusted. If the insight changes too often, users don’t believe it. If it doesn’t change at all, it’s not useful beyond the first visit. A few things we loved from the conversation 🧠 “AI can’t replace taste.” Trisha talked about what Megan Quinn once called taste—the combination of intuition, signal processing, and experience that defines a great PM. AI can help with execution, but it can’t develop taste. That’s why the best PMs are probably sticking around. 🎯 “There is no such thing as product strategy.” Or rather—your product strategy is your company strategy. Especially in product-led SaaS companies, the two are often inseparable. Trisha emphasized that if your company strategy is to sell more to happy customers, your product strategy better be about creating those happy customers. 💡 “We don’t believe in fixed innovation percentages.” Instead of saying 20% of R&D goes to new ideas, Trisha prefers a more fluid approach: start small, see what sticks, then double down. That’s how they scaled features like Session Replay. It’s also how they’re thinking about future churn prediction features. What else we talked about * Why junior PMs might not actually be PMs yet—and why that’s okay * The changing PM-to-engineer ratio in the age of AI (some teams run on 1:1:1!) * Why product marketing can’t save a weak product, and how PMs sometimes try to offload differentiation Listen to the full episode 🎧 Spotify 📹 YouTube 🍎 Apple Podcasts 🧠 Follow Trisha: LinkedIn 🎙 Follow Christoph: LinkedIn 🎙 Follow Stefan: LinkedIn 🔥 Follow Hotfix: Linktree This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehotfixpodcast.substack.com

    41 min

About

Stories from product leaders and unfiltered truths about products that failed. 💥 Made with ❤️ by Christoph & Stefan thehotfixpodcast.substack.com