Whiteness at Work

Dr. Claire Stewart-Hall

0.0 (0)
Education

A show about the concept of whiteness and how it works. Listen in to notice, reimagine and question the role of whiteness. You will hear collective voices to share in the anti-racism quest to expose and dismantle the dominance of whiteness in our families, institutions and everyday lives.

5d ago

Outcomes, Experiences and Solidarity: What Whiteness Hates, with Paul Gorski (Part 2)

What does whiteness hate? Paul Gorski's answer might surprise you. In the second part of my conversation with Paul Gorski, founder of the Equity Literacy Institute, we turn our attention to what happens inside schools, why good intentions aren't enough, and how we can move beyond performative equity towards meaningful structural change. We discuss how quickly the lens shifts back onto families rather than institutions, and why rising test scores tell us nothing about racism in a school. Paul explains why we need to look at both outcomes and experiences, because a student can achieve top grades and still be marginalised, and why genuinely trauma-informed education starts by asking how people are being harmed in schools themselves. We also reflect on the cycles Paul has seen over his career, as structural approaches gain ground and then give way to "fluffier" versions, the pressure created by accountability systems like Ofsted, and Paul's role as series editor for a Routledge book series that gives a platform to new voices in equity work. Finally, Paul shares why he believes white supremacy hates solidarity, and why community care, preparation and a willingness to disagree without tearing each other down matter so much in anti-racist work. In this episode: Moving the lens from families to institutionsWhy test scores don't measure racismOutcomes versus experiences in schoolsTrauma, racism and what "trauma-informed" should really meanRecurring patterns in equity workSolidarity, community care and the role of white anti-racistsFind out more about Paul's work at equityliteracy.org Interested in exploring these ideas further? The Divest Whiteness UK programmes, developer and advanced, begin in January. Find out more at equitablevision.com
Oct 20

Structural Racism and Deficit Ideology, with Paul Gorski (Part 1)

Why does so much of what we call equity work leave the systems producing inequality completely untouched? In the first of a two-part conversation, I'm joined by Paul Gorski, founder of the Equity Literacy Institute and EdChange. Paul has spent more than 25 years supporting educators and organisations across the United States and internationally to strengthen their equity efforts, and his clear, accessible writing has deeply influenced my own work. We begin by troubling the term whiteness itself, and why Paul often prefers to talk directly about white supremacy and structural racism. Paul shares how he came to this work, and why he believes we should start by imagining what an anti-racist institution looks like, rather than beginning with individual bias reflection and hoping change follows. We also explore the rise of "high optics, low impact" equity work, the challenge of liberal whiteness and the saviour complex, and why deficit ideology, from grit to growth mindset, remains one of the biggest barriers to racial equity in schools. As Paul puts it, so often we try to fix the students rather than fixing the conditions that deny them opportunity. In this episode: Why "whiteness" can be a slippery term, and what it can obscureStarting with institutional change, not individual awarenessHigh optics, low impact: performative equity and political backlashLiberal whiteness, rescue narratives and the saviour complexDeficit ideology, grit and resilience Find out more about Paul's work at equityliteracy.org Interested in exploring these ideas further? The Divest Whiteness UK programmes, Developer and Advanced, begin in January. Find out more at https://equitablevision.com/divest-whiteness/
Aug 24

What Does Whiteness Hate? Dr Kathy Obear on Accountability, Discomfort and Action (Part 2)

In Part Two of my conversation with Dr Kathy Obear, we move from understanding whiteness to exploring what it actually means to take responsibility, build accountability and interrupt racism in practice. We begin with white accountability spaces. What happens when white people are given somewhere to examine racism honestly? How do we work with shame, defensiveness, tears and discomfort without allowing those responses to recentre whiteness? And what happens when people leave those spaces and return to organisations where speaking up may carry consequences? Kathy draws on decades of facilitation and organisational change work to explore how white people can develop the awareness, skills and relationships needed to recognise racism, interrupt harmful dynamics and act differently. Importantly, this isn't about becoming the "best white person in the room". Kathy challenges the idea of the facilitator as the expert who has somehow solved racism. Instead, we discuss the power of honesty, vulnerability, community and being willing to recognise the racism we have been socialised into. Together, we discuss: White accountability groups and what makes them effectiveShame, defensiveness and white women's tearsWhy accountability doesn't have to mean humiliationMoving from individual understandings of racism towards group and organisational analysisHow white people can recognise their own participation in racist dynamicsFacilitation without positioning ourselves as the expertBuilding community as part of anti-racist practiceSpeaking up when there may be organisational consequencesWorking differently in all-white and racially mixed spacesAvoiding reliance on people of colour to educate white people about racismTriggers, hot buttons and emotional responsesEntitlement, power and unmet needsPractical ways of interrupting inequitable dynamicsRepairing harm and taking responsibility for impactWhy organising, connection and truth-telling matterKathy also talks candidly about her own mistakes and learning, including moments when entitlement, competitiveness and racism have shown up in her own thinking. We explore how seemingly small interventions can begin to interrupt organisational patterns: asking a question, slowing a meeting down, noticing whose voice has been missed, examining who benefits from a decision, or simply being willing to name what others would prefer to leave unspoken. And we finish with the question I ask every guest: What does whiteness hate? For Kathy, the answer takes us towards connection, community, truth-telling, organising, speaking up and the willingness to hold a mirror to what is actually happening.
Aug 17

Understanding Whiteness: Dr Kathy Obear on Race, Power and White Accountability (Part 1)

In Part One of my conversation with Dr Kathy Obear, I explore whiteness, white accountability and the everyday behaviours through which racism and inequity can continue to operate within our organisations. Kathy is an author, facilitator, coach and founder of the Center for Transformation and Change. With more than 40 years of experience in conflict resolution, change management and creating inclusive cultures, her work has been hugely influential in my own learning and practice. In this episode, Kathy reflects candidly on her own journey as a white woman working in equity and social justice, including the moments when others challenged her to recognise where her own understanding of racism was limited. Together, we discuss: what whiteness is and why it can be so difficult (for white people) to see and define how whiteness operates within organisational cultures Kathy's own journey towards understanding race and racism white accountability and the importance of examining our own behaviours power hoarding, hierarchy and expectations within majority white organisations the everyday behaviours and microaggressions that can reproduce racism why good intentions do not necessarily prevent racial harm how white people can recognise the ways we participate in inequitable systems moving beyond shame towards responsibility and action why practical tools can help make whiteness more visible finding our own ways to contribute to dismantling inequitable systems Kathy also talks about the importance of mapping behaviours that can otherwise appear isolated or insignificant. Interrupting, talking over people, questioning competence, demanding additional evidence and deciding whose ideas are taken seriously can all form part of wider organisational patterns. By making these patterns visible, we can begin to recognise whiteness not simply as an abstract concept, but as something reproduced through everyday expectations, relationships, policies and practices. We finish Part One with a deceptively difficult question: how do we actually define whiteness? About my guest Dr Kathy Obear is an author, facilitator, coach and organisational change specialist with more than 40 years of experience. She is the founder of the Center for Transformation and Change and co-founder of the Social Justice Training Institute. Her books include Turn the Tide, In It for the Long Haul, But I'm Not Racist! and Leading White Accountability Spaces. Kathy's work focuses particularly on helping people recognise inequitable dynamics, develop practical skills to interrupt them and create more inclusive and equitable organisations. Coming next... In Part Two, Kathy and I move deeper into white accountability groups, what happens when white people experience discomfort, shame or defensiveness in conversations about racism, and how we can create spaces that move people towards greater accountability and action.
Aug 6

Critical Race Theory, Interest Convergence and What Whiteness Hates - Part 3

In the final part of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore some of the most influential ideas within Critical Race Theory and why they remain so relevant to understanding racism today. Beginning with Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence, David explains why progress towards racial equity is often temporary, how moments of change emerge, and why systems of power frequently adapt to preserve themselves. We also discuss why Critical Race Theory has become so politically contested, what researchers often misunderstand about it, and why returning to the original scholars remains essential. In this episode, we discuss: Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence convergence, divergence and reclamation why anti-racist progress is often temporary how racism adapts to protect existing systems of power why Critical Race Theory is so frequently misunderstood the importance of reading the original CRT scholars storytelling, counter-stories and race scholarship conducting research that begins with the permanence of racism what researchers can learn from Critical Race Theory what whiteness fears, resists and ultimately seeks to protect Throughout our conversation, David reflects on more than three decades of research, sharing practical advice for researchers, educators and leadership practitioners working to challenge institutional racism. He also offers a hopeful reminder that moments of change do happen, but only when people are prepared to recognise them and act. This episode brings our three-part conversation to a close and is essential listening for researchers, teachers, school leaders, policymakers, leadership practitioners and anyone seeking a deeper understanding of Critical Race Theory, education and racial justice. About my guest Professor David Gillborn is Professor of Critical Race Studies and Founding Director of the Centre for Research in Race and Education at the University of Birmingham. He is the former Editor-in-Chief of Race Ethnicity and Education and author of numerous influential books, including White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. David's profile – University of Birminghamhttps://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/education/gillborn-david ResearchGate – Free access to many of David's publicationshttps://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Gillborn/publications Centre for Research in Race and Education (CRRE)https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/centres-institutes/research-in-race-and-education Race Ethnicity and EducationAn international peer-reviewed journal exploring race, racism and education.https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/cree20 Taylor, E., Gillborn, D. & Ladson-Billings, G. (Eds.) (2023). Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education (3rd ed.). Routledge. Parker, L. & Gillborn, D. (Eds.) (2020). Critical Race Theory in Education. Routledge. Gillborn, D. (1995). Racism and Antiracism in Real Schools: Theory, Policy, Practice. Open University Press. Gillborn, D. & Youdell, D. (2000). Rationing Education: Policy, Practice, Reform and Equity. Open University Press. Gillborn, D. (2008). Racism and Education: Coincidence or Conspiracy? Routledge. Rollock, N., Gillborn, D., Vincent, C. & Ball, S.J. (2015). The Colour of Class: The Educational Strategies of the Black Middle Classes. Routledge. Gillborn, D. (2024). White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. Routledge. Thank you for joining me for this special three-part conversation. If you've found these discussions valuable, I'd love you to subscribe to the Whiteness at Work podcast, leave a review, and share this series with colleagues, researchers, educators and leaders committed to creating more equitable organisations. Further Reading & ResourcesCritical Race Theory CollectionsSelected Publications by Professor David Gillborn
Aug 6

The Myth of White Working-Class Victimhood: Professor David Gillborn Explains - Part 2

In Part Two of my conversation with Professor David Gillborn, we explore one of the most enduring and politically influential narratives in education today: the idea that white working-class children have become the forgotten victims of race equality. Drawing on decades of research and evidence from his latest book, White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory, David unpacks how this narrative developed, why it continues to dominate public debate, and who ultimately benefits from it. Together, we examine how conversations about race are often reframed to shut down anti-racist work, despite there being no evidence that improving racial equity comes at the expense of white children living in poverty. In this episode, we discuss: the myth of white working-class victimhood why Free School Meals are an unreliable measure of social class poverty, race and educational inequality how political narratives shape public understanding of education the relationship between racism, education policy and the media why anti-racist work benefits all children institutional racism and policy-making how racism becomes embedded within educational systems what schools can do to challenge structural inequity the evidence that continues to be ignored in public debate Throughout our conversation, David explains why racism should not be understood as separate from wider questions of poverty and inequality, but why neither should discussions of poverty be used to silence conversations about race. This episode is essential listening for teachers, school leaders, trust leaders, governors, policymakers, researchers, teacher educators and anyone interested in education, social justice and racial equity. About my guest Professor David Gillborn is Professor of Critical Race Studies and Founding Director of the Centre for Research in Race and Education at the University of Birmingham. He is the former Editor-in-Chief of Race Ethnicity and Education and author of numerous influential books, including White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. David's profile – University of Birminghamhttps://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/education/gillborn-david ResearchGate – Free access to many of David's publicationshttps://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Gillborn/publications Centre for Research in Race and Education (CRRE)https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/centres-institutes/research-in-race-and-education Race Ethnicity and EducationAn international peer-reviewed journal exploring race, racism and education.https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/cree20 Taylor, E., Gillborn, D. & Ladson-Billings, G. (Eds.) (2023). Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education (3rd ed.). Routledge. Parker, L. & Gillborn, D. (Eds.) (2020). Critical Race Theory in Education. Routledge. Gillborn, D. (1995). Racism and Antiracism in Real Schools: Theory, Policy, Practice. Open University Press. Gillborn, D. & Youdell, D. (2000). Rationing Education: Policy, Practice, Reform and Equity. Open University Press. Gillborn, D. (2008). Racism and Education: Coincidence or Conspiracy? Routledge. Rollock, N., Gillborn, D., Vincent, C. & Ball, S.J. (2015). The Colour of Class: The Educational Strategies of the Black Middle Classes. Routledge. Gillborn, D. (2024). White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. Routledge. Coming next... In the final part of our conversation, we explore Critical Race Theory, Derrick Bell's theory of interest convergence, and why understanding how racism adapts is essential for anyone committed to long-term anti-racist change. Further Reading & ResourcesCritical Race Theory CollectionsSelected Publications by Professor David Gillborn
Aug 6

What Is White Racism? Professor David Gillborn on Whiteness, Education and Critical Race Theory - Part 1

In Part One of this special three-part conversation, I sit down with Professor David Gillborn, one of the UK's leading Critical Race Theory scholars and a lifelong researcher of racism in education. We begin by exploring one of the most fundamental questions in race scholarship: what is whiteness? David explains why he increasingly prefers the term white racism over whiteness, arguing that the language we use matters because terms are continually reshaped, politicised and, at times, stripped of their original meaning. Drawing on his own working-class upbringing, his early experiences in education, and decades of research, David reflects on how class, race and institutional power intersect, and how those experiences shaped his career as a sociologist and race scholar. Together, we discuss: Why David prefers the term white racism rather than whiteness How race and class shaped his own educational journey The influence of Professor Michael Apple on his thinking Why language matters in anti-racist work The relationship between Critical Race Theory and education The importance of remaining intellectually humble How White Lies came to be written Why David uses timelines to expose patterns of institutional racism This episode lays the foundations for the rest of our conversation and explores why understanding the systems that sustain white racism remains essential for anyone interested in education, leadership and organisational change. About my guest Professor David Gillborn is Professor of Critical Race Studies and Founding Director of the Centre for Research in Race and Education at the University of Birmingham. He is the former Editor-in-Chief of Race Ethnicity and Education and author of numerous influential books, including White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. David's profile – University of Birminghamhttps://www.birmingham.ac.uk/staff/profiles/education/gillborn-david ResearchGate – Free access to many of David's publicationshttps://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Gillborn/publications Centre for Research in Race and Education (CRRE)https://www.birmingham.ac.uk/research/centres-institutes/research-in-race-and-education Race Ethnicity and EducationAn international peer-reviewed journal exploring race, racism and education.https://www.tandfonline.com/journals/cree20 Taylor, E., Gillborn, D. & Ladson-Billings, G. (Eds.) (2023). Foundations of Critical Race Theory in Education (3rd ed.). Routledge. Parker, L. & Gillborn, D. (Eds.) (2020). Critical Race Theory in Education. Routledge. Gillborn, D. (1995). Racism and Antiracism in Real Schools: Theory, Policy, Practice. Open University Press. Gillborn, D. & Youdell, D. (2000). Rationing Education: Policy, Practice, Reform and Equity. Open University Press. Gillborn, D. (2008). Racism and Education: Coincidence or Conspiracy? Routledge. Rollock, N., Gillborn, D., Vincent, C. & Ball, S.J. (2015). The Colour of Class: The Educational Strategies of the Black Middle Classes. Routledge. Gillborn, D. (2024). White Lies: Racism, Education and Critical Race Theory. Routledge. Coming next... In Part Two, we explore the myth of white working-class victimhood, how political narratives around race are constructed, and why misinformation continues to shape debates about education and inequality. Further Reading & ResourcesCritical Race Theory CollectionsSelected Publications by Professor David Gillborn
Jul 29

Beyond Whiteness: Thriving, Leadership and Building New Futures with Angie Browne

In this episode of the Whiteness at Work podcast, I speak with executive leader, strategist, coach and author Angie Browne about whiteness, leadership, equity, and what becomes possible when we stop allowing whiteness to define the limits of our imagination. Drawing on decades of experience working internationally across education, organisational strategy and leadership, Angie explores whiteness as a manufactured system of power that disconnects people from their humanity while shaping institutions, policies and organisational cultures. Rather than centring whiteness as the destination of our work, Angie invites us to consider what happens when we turn our attention towards flourishing, sovereignty, community, ecology and new ways of leading. Together, we discuss: whiteness as a manufactured system of privilege leadership beyond diversity, equity and inclusion creating organisations where people genuinely flourish international perspectives on race and whiteness British international schools and colonial legacies equity, sovereignty and organisational culture abolitionist thinking and systems change why anti-racist work must move beyond reaction ecologies of thriving and ethical leadership why disinterest may be one of the greatest challenges to whiteness Throughout our conversation, we explore how leadership can move beyond simply responding to injustice towards intentionally creating cultures where people experience belonging, humanity and possibility. This episode will resonate with school leaders, executive leaders, coaches, researchers, policymakers, organisational development practitioners, and anyone interested in leadership, equity, systems change and racial justice. References Browne, A. (2026) Field Notes on Equity. Substack. Browne, A. (2020) Lighting the Way: The Case for Ethical Leadership in Schools. Bloomsbury. Browne, A. (2026) Nothing Without Us podcast. Website: https://www.beingluminary.co.uk/

See All (20)

Creator

Dr. Claire Stewart-Hall
Years Active

2024 - 2026
Episodes

20
Rating

Explicit
Show Website

Whiteness at Work

Whiteness at Work

Episodes

Outcomes, Experiences and Solidarity: What Whiteness Hates, with Paul Gorski (Part 2)

Structural Racism and Deficit Ideology, with Paul Gorski (Part 1)

What Does Whiteness Hate? Dr Kathy Obear on Accountability, Discomfort and Action (Part 2)

Understanding Whiteness: Dr Kathy Obear on Race, Power and White Accountability (Part 1)

Critical Race Theory, Interest Convergence and What Whiteness Hates - Part 3

The Myth of White Working-Class Victimhood: Professor David Gillborn Explains - Part 2

What Is White Racism? Professor David Gillborn on Whiteness, Education and Critical Race Theory - Part 1

Beyond Whiteness: Thriving, Leadership and Building New Futures with Angie Browne

About

Information