Not to Forgive, but to Understand

Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte
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A podcast series discussing topics in genocide studies with scholars and individuals deeply involved in understanding the complexities of genocide and its perpetrators. Presented by writer, and scholar of Genocide Studies Sabah Carrim, along with co-host Luis Gonzalez-Aponte. Tune in to this podcast series for insightful discussions on pressing topics in the field.

  1. 2d ago

    Raz Segal: Gaza and the Future of Holocaust Studies

    Dr. Raz Segal is Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies and Endowed Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University in New Jersey. His research focuses on the Holocaust, modern genocide, and state violence, particularly in central and southeastern Europe and in Palestine/Israel. Segal is known for his critical approach to the study of mass violence and is a recipient of the Baron Velge Award by the Free University in Brussels for his work on the history of World War II (2024). His publications include Genocide in the Carpathians: War, Social Breakdown, and Mass Violence, 1914–1945 (Stanford University Press, 2016), which will be published in Ukrainian translation by Academic Studies Press in June 2026. He also co-edited, together with Dr. Dirk Moses, the recent roundtable “Gaza and Genocide Studies” in the Journal of Genocide Research (Vol. 28, Issue 3, 2026), including his introductory article, “Genocide Studies — Coming to Terms with Failure”: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14623528.2025.2557712 Dr. Segal was the first Holocaust and Genocide Studies scholar to warn, already in October 2023, about genocide in Israel’s attack on Gaza, in his Jewish Currents article “A Textbook Case of Genocide”: https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide Dr. Segal was subsequently invited to speak about Israel’s genocide in Palestine at the United Nations in New York in December 2023 and at the European Parliament in Brussels, online, in March 2025. In January 2025, he discussed “Genocide Denial in Holocaust Studies” in Jacobin: https://jacobin.com/2025/01/gaza-genocide-holocaust-studies-germany In November 2025, he wrote in The Guardian that “The Gaza Genocide Is Far From Over”: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/nov/28/the-genocide-in-gaza-is-far-from-over NOTE ON THE UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA This interview was recorded before Dr. Segal reached an agreement with the University of Minnesota to settle his claims against it in mid-June 2026. In the agreement, the University denies any wrongdoing. The University was required to release public documents in the process that served as the basis for Dr. Segal’s claim about the violation of his First Amendment rights and the violation of academic freedom. The public documents are now available on the website of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which represented Dr. Segal. Center for Constitutional Rights briefing guide: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ccrjustice.org_sites_default_files_attach_2026_08_Raz-2520Briefing-2520Guide-2520Final-2520August-25205-25202026.pdf&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=jlDijqVYA6qscmUYkXuXuDjg2JjiwDg4gB81vNolndo&m=OCJu0-AOuE8ZyAGE2KhbGnTJBLlY6qIlGJvx-Zsi1VjZ-LjYy0Slpv9-6opxVQdg&s=VS_D58VTAf2PB0W353tEhWLGJC5EGuTU9r5Js-eKiK0&e= Center for Constitutional Rights press release on the settlement: https://ccrjustice.org/home/press-center/press-releases/victory-academic-freedom-university-minnesota-reaches-settlement The Guardian, August 6, 2026: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2026/aug/06/professor-israel-gaza-university-of-minnesota 0:00 Opening 1:49 Introduction 2:29 The Future of Holocaust Education After Gaza 4:39 The “Permanent Victim” 7:24 Holocaust Survivors, 1948, and the Nakba 9:27 The Genocide Convention and Holocaust Uniqueness 15:35 Victimhood, Israel, and Impunity 19:01 How Should Holocaust Education Change? 23:18 USHMM, “Never Again,” and Holocaust Comparison 28:17 Sarah Hurwitz and the Meaning of Holocaust Education 31:08 Negative Exceptionalism, Decolonization, and the Present Crisis 40:25 Truth, Antisemitism, and a “World Turned Upside Down” 44:11 Holocaust Scholars and the Gaza Genocide Debate 47:13 The “Death” and Transformation of Holocaust Studies 49:18 How Segal Teaches the Holocaust 55:42 Funding, Donors, and Institutional Constraints 1:04:31 University of Minnesota and Academic Freedom 1:07:38 Edward Westermann: Teaching the Shoah and Nakba Together 1:12:47 Reading Recommendations 1:16:54 Outro

  2. Jul 21

    Emilie Caspar: Just Following Orders: The Brain Science of Obedience, and Obedience to Authority

    Emilie Caspar is an associate professor at Ghent University and leader of the Moral and Social Brain Lab. Her book Just Following Orders: Atrocities and the Brain Science of Obedience examines obedience, responsibility, and harm under authority. This conversation discusses neuroscience, perpetrator behavior, rescuer behavior, and the phenomenon of obedience to authority. Not to Forgive, but to Understand, hosted by Sabah Carrim, examines genocide and mass atrocity through discussions with scholars, journalists, artists, and other stakeholders. 00:00 Opening 01:43 Introduction 02:08 Why neuroscience in genocide studies? 04:01 “Just following orders” and obedience to authority 08:45 Neuroscience, psychology, and legal defenses 13:52 Responsibility, explanation, and excuse 17:17 Awareness as prevention 19:51 How neuroscience research is conducted 22:34 Portable EEG and field research in Rwanda 28:44 Neurohype and public misunderstanding 31:49 Caspar’s next book and research on rescuers 34:42 What neuroscience adds to genocide studies 38:11 Neuroscience evidence in court 42:16 Skepticism toward neuroscience explanations 44:47 Phineas Gage and causality 46:25 Understanding as prevention 50:47 Milgram, resistance, and rescuers 52:56 Research access and current political violence 55:14 Closing

  3. Jun 26

    Kate English & Kim Klett: Holocaust Education, Human Rights, and the Right to Learn

    We speak with Kate English and Kim Klett of the Educators Institute for Human Rights (EIHR), an organization that works with teachers internationally to develop resources and training in Holocaust, genocide, human rights, and conflict education. We discuss what responsible genocide education requires in classrooms and post-conflict settings, including teacher training, accessible educational materials, student engagement, Holocaust education mandates in the United States, and EIHR’s work with the Right to Learn Coalition. Kate and Kim also reflect on the challenges educators face when teaching difficult histories and the role education can play in prevention, reconstruction, and civic life. Learn more about EIHR: https://eihr.org/ Not to Forgive, but to Understand, Hosted by Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte examines genocide, mass violence, and their aftermath through conversations with scholars, practitioners, survivors, and others working to understand how these events occur and what their legacies demand of us. 00:00 Opening 02:00 Introducing Kate English and Kim Klett 03:10 EIHR’s Work in Rwanda and the Teacher Corps 09:42 Creating Resources for Educators 14:30 Why Genocide Education Matters After Conflict 19:39 Teacher Constraints and Teaching Difficult Histories 25:07 Holocaust Education Mandates in Arizona 28:12 The Right to Learn Coalition 33:42 Teacher Restrictions, Book Bans, and Classroom Climate 38:01 Fear and Access to Inclusive Education 40:01 EIHR’s Current Work in the Democratic Republic of Congo 42:00 Webinars, Literature, and Learning From Young People in Conflict

  4. Jun 8

    Judi Rever: Rwanda, Congo, Burundi, and Politically Protected Violence

    Investigative journalist Judi Rever joins us to discuss her work on Rwanda, Congo, and the Great Lakes region. Drawing from her books *In Praise of Blood: The Crimes of the Rwandan Patriotic Front* and *Rwanda’s 30-Year Assault on Congo: The Crimes, the Criminals and the Cover-Up*, Rever examines contested histories of violence, regional war, impunity, and international complicity. The conversation also reflects on her career investigating politically protected violence and the risks involved in pursuing difficult historical truths. Judi Rever’s new book, *Rwanda’s 30-Year Assault on Congo*: https://www.barakabooks.com/catalogue/rwandas-30-year-assault-on-congo/ References on African Rights and the construction of the post-1994 Rwanda narrative: https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/10/04/rwanda-the-danger-of-a-sanitized-narrative/ https://www.jstor.org/stable/24738036 Timestamps: 00:00:00 Opening 00:01:59 Introduction: Judi Rever and the Great Lakes Region 00:02:28 Rwanda, Burundi, Congo, and the Regional Conflict 00:08:55 Rethinking the Rwandan Genocide Narrative 00:16:25 How Rever First Questioned the Post-1994 Rwanda Story 00:25:13 Why RPF Crimes Were Not Acknowledged Internationally 00:31:33 U.S. Interests, Kagame, and Congo’s Minerals 00:38:05 Impunity and Diplomatic Protection for Kagame 00:43:49 RPF Military Strategy and Bait-and-Kill Operations 00:50:29 Mass Graves, Victim Categories, and Historical Memory 00:57:24 Victoire Ingabire and Political Repression in Rwanda 01:04:20 RPF Insiders, Sources, and the Risks of Speaking 01:11:59 When the Risks of the Investigation Became Personal 01:17:45 Advice for Scholars and Journalists Investigating Atrocity 01:22:01 Justice and Accountability for Congo 01:24:50 Public Response, Safety, and Continuing the Work 01:30:37 Closing 01:30:48 Outro

  5. May 25

    Edward Westermann: Thirst, Dehydration, and Water Sanitation in the Holocaust

    Edward Westermann is the Theodore Zev and Alice R. Weiss HEF Chair in Holocaust Studies and Visiting Professor in the Department of History at Northwestern University. He is the author of Drunk on Genocide: Alcohol and Mass Murder in Nazi Germany, which received the 2023 Yad Vashem International Book Prize for Holocaust Research. In this conversation, Professor Westermann discusses his research on thirst, water deprivation, sanitation, disease, and embodied suffering in the Holocaust. The interview considers how dehydration shaped prisoner experience in camps and transports, how water scarcity intersected with starvation and illness, and how control over water functioned within the broader system of domination and dehumanization. We previously spoke with Professor Westermann about Drunk on Genocide. That conversation is linked below. Previous interview: https://youtu.be/z0rLwBDWPXQ?si=nJuJTQld8plp5rdA 00:00 Opening 02:23 Introduction 02:52 Why Study Thirst in the Holocaust? 05:49 “Thirst is Dreadful, Worse Than Hunger” 10:46 Reconstructing Thirst Through Historical and Medical Sources 15:22 Water Sources in Camps and Killing Sites 26:22 SS Access to Water and Prisoner Deprivation 30:33 Latrines, Excrement, and the Lack of Water 37:58 Dehumanization, Disease, and Misattributed Deaths 44:44 Water Deprivation as Control 49:57 Humiliation, Perpetrator Behavior, and the Boger Swing 55:03 Why Has Thirst Been Marginalized in Holocaust Studies? 1:02:37 Charlotte Delbo, Useless Knowledge, and Survivor Testimony 1:03:09 Water, Genocide, and Other Historical Contexts 1:08:04 The Ethical Challenges of Researching Thirst 1:12:52 Book Recommendations 1:14:15 Closing

  6. May 4

    Mahi Ramakrishnan: Refugees, Rights, and the Rohingya in Malaysia

    The plight of the Rohingya remains under-addressed in public discourse, even as the genocide case brought by The Gambia against Myanmar continues before the International Court of Justice. In this interview, we speak with Mahi Ramakrishnan, an investigative journalist, filmmaker, and founder of Beyond Borders Malaysia, about refugees in Malaysia, the legal and political barriers they face, and her use of film, advocacy, and the Festival on Wheels to build public understanding and community connection. 00:00 Opening / Content Note 02:29 Introduction 03:12 Rohingya Refugees in Kuala Lumpur 04:44 From Investigative Journalism to Beyond Borders Malaysia 11:32 Documenting Rohingya Stories and Malaysia’s Response 15:20 Refugees, Race, Religion, and Malaysian Law 20:48 Refugee Communities in Malaysia 26:02 Patriarchy, Toxic Masculinity, and Community Education 28:29 Child Marriage, Trafficking, and Exploitation 34:35 The Origins of the Refugee Festival 38:48 Migrant Workers, Refugees, and Legal Protection 40:51 Community Support for Refugee Advocacy 42:51 From Refugee Fest to Festival on Wheels 46:21 How Festival on Wheels Builds Local Connection 48:30 Future Goals for Refugee Rights in Malaysia 53:36 An Image That Stays with Her 55:08 Documentary Scenes and the Violence Refugees Face 57:14 Closing Remarks

  7. Apr 7

    Christopher Tounsel: Sudan and the Politics of Solidarity

    There are genocides that are neglected and underreported, and Sudan is often sidelined while other conflicts dominate global attention. In this episode, we speak with Christopher Tounsel, historian of modern Sudan and author of “Bounds of Blackness: African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity”. We examine how African Americans have engaged with Sudan across the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, focusing on race, religion, media, and foreign policy, and how these have shaped responses to conflict in Sudan and South Sudan. The conversation also addresses current dynamics, including the war in Sudan, the role of external actors, and how solidarity is formed, limited, and applied across different contexts of violence. Find Tounsel's book, "Bounds of Blackness African Americans, Sudan, and the Politics of Solidarity" below: https://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/book/9781501775628/bounds-of-blackness/ 00:00 — Introduction and Overview 02:22 — Obama, Darfur, and the Limits of Global Solidarity 05:23 — What Would a “Black” Foreign Policy Look Like? 08:29 — South Sudan and the Meaning of Independence 11:42 — Misconceptions About African Politics and Lived Frustrations 16:09 — Black Solidarity, Zionism, and Divided Alignments 21:36 — Identity, Race, and the Boundaries of Solidarity 25:54 — Black Lives Matter and the Contradictions of Solidarity 30:40 — Spivak, Othering, and Who Gets to Speak 36:54 — Black Media and the Mobilization of Sudan 42:22 — Media Figures, BLM, and Shaping Conflict Narratives 46:59 — Media Framing and the Inequality of Attention 53:25 — Why Some Genocides Receive More Attention Than Others 01:03:17 — Media, Academia, and the Political Economy of Genocide Attention 01:11:05 — Social Media, Power, and U.S.–UAE Influence in Sudan 01:11:05 — Book Recommendations

  8. Mar 17

    Saira Hussain: Humanitarian Medical Practice in Gaza: Between Ethics, Anger, and Resilience

    Despite the announcement of a ceasefire, conditions in Gaza remain unstable and violence continues to affect civilian life and medical care. Saira Hussain discusses her most recent medical mission to Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, Gaza. Drawing on her experience working in a severely constrained healthcare system, she reflects on the conditions inside the hospital, the practical limits of medical care under blockade, and the ethical decisions clinicians face when equipment, medication, and evacuation options are restricted. The conversation also addresses the psychological strain experienced by humanitarian medical teams, the challenges of speaking publicly about what they witness, and the broader questions this raises for humanitarian institutions, medical ethics, and international accountability. Courtesy footage provided by Saira Hussain. Watch our previous interview with Saira here: https://youtu.be/Qd0nS28iG3M 00:00:00 Introduction 00:05:21 Third Mission to Gaza: What Changed 00:10:07 How Repeated Missions Shape a Doctor 00:13:53 What Gazans Say vs Outside Narratives 00:16:48 Shared Grief Among Medical Teams 00:19:12 Patients vs Doctors: Emotional Differences 00:23:02 Short-Term vs Long-Term Medical Staff 00:24:26 Why It’s Impossible to Disconnect 00:25:27 Humanitarian Heroism 00:32:31 Medical Evacuations from Gaza 00:32:50 Hidden Trauma Among Medical Workers 00:36:02 Collective Anger Inside the Hospital 00:37:37 Neutrality and Ethics in War Medicine 00:42:07 Anger as a Catalyst for Advocacy 00:44:12 Survivor’s Guilt After Returning Home 00:46:44 A Shared Language of Humanitarian Grief 00:48:59 Risks of Speaking Out About Gaza 00:52:08 The Burden of Witnessing Trauma 00:54:55 Rethinking Humanitarian Institutions 00:58:51 Health of Doctors Working in Gaza 01:00:44 Returning to Gaza: Future Goals

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A podcast series discussing topics in genocide studies with scholars and individuals deeply involved in understanding the complexities of genocide and its perpetrators. Presented by writer, and scholar of Genocide Studies Sabah Carrim, along with co-host Luis Gonzalez-Aponte. Tune in to this podcast series for insightful discussions on pressing topics in the field.

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  • Creator
    Sabah Carrim and Luis Gonzalez-Aponte
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    45
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Not to Forgive, but to Understand
  • Show Website
    Not to Forgive, but to Understand