The Non-Billable Podcast

Non-Billable
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The Non-Billable Podcast takes UK legal professionals beyond the billable hour, bringing you interviews with top lawyers, law firm leaders, industry experts and legal tech innovators to uncover actionable insights on the business of law, career growth and the future of the industry. Hosted by Oliver Attinger, a former finance lawyer at a leading City law firm - now asking the questions he wished he had when he was practising. Brought to you by Non-Billable, the legal media platform for City lawyers, in-house counsel, and legal professionals.

  1. How law firms win the AI race: Alex Kardos-Nyheim on data, defensibility and staying power

    1D AGO

    How law firms win the AI race: Alex Kardos-Nyheim on data, defensibility and staying power

    Alex Kardos-Nyheim is the founder of SafeSign Technologies and now co-lead of AI research at Thomson Reuters. Alex built a legal-specific large language model while still a trainee at A&O Shearman, ultimately selling the company in 2024. He explains why Safe Sign focused on building the “engine” rather than the interface and how a legal LLM was able to outperform some of the biggest AI labs on legal tasks. A central thread of the conversation is how the competitive landscape in legal AI has shifted. What began as a wave of “wrapper” products around foundation models is now evolving into a deeper contest over models, data and defensibility. Alex argues that the real moat lies not in user interface features, but in training models on high-quality legal data and building robust retrieval systems that reduce hallucinations and improve reasoning. We also explore how Thomson Reuters is thinking about the full stack: combining proprietary legal data, live market intelligence and a legal-trained model into a cohesive platform.  Finally, Alex shares what he’s seeing inside law firms. Smaller firms should be using AI as a force multiplier to “punch above their weight”, while larger firms face a strategic imperative to convert their institutional know-how into machine-readable data to power their AI tools. His advice to managing partners is direct: hire data engineers, structure your data and lean into expertise.  The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/  Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 Building a legal LLM while at A&O 03:40 Engine vs wrapper: why Safe Sign focused on the model 04:41 Life after the Thomson Reuters acquisition 06:24 Inside Thomson Reuters’ “skunk works” AI team 08:42 From point solutions to platform wars in legal AI 11:49 The perfect stack: models, data and RAG 15:07 Why retrieval engines matter more than you think 18:33 Data as the moat 23:56 Can small data beat big data? 27:14 Making legal AI “market aware” 31:05 The evolution of Co-Counsel 33:57 What law firms are getting right and wrong about AI 36:50 “Hire 30 data engineers tomorrow” 38:22 Productising law firm know-how 43:10 Tips if you started a legal AI company today About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    47 min
  2. Ex-DLA Piper boss Simon Levine on why Europe is the next big opportunity for UK firms

    FEB 10

    Ex-DLA Piper boss Simon Levine on why Europe is the next big opportunity for UK firms

    In this episode, we speak with Simon Levine, former global co-CEO of DLA Piper and now an adviser to Shoosmiths, about leadership, strategy and where Big Law is heading. Simon recounts the move that brought him to DLA Piper in 2005, when he led a 50-person team across to build a global IP, media and technology practice - at the time, one of the largest lateral hires in the UK market. He went on to join the firm’s executive team and was elected managing partner and global co-CEO in 2014. A central theme of the conversation is what it takes to run a truly global law firm. Simon reflects on spending much of his time on the road, and why visibility and regular communication were essential in a partnership of that scale. He explains how town halls, open Q&As and firm-wide vlogs became core to his leadership approach. Looking ahead, Simon shares his view on the current wave of transatlantic mergers, why Europe is being overlooked, and why he believes a gap is opening up in the mid-market - a perspective shaped in part by his current advisory work with Shoosmiths. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 Journey into Big Law 04:25 The move to DLA Piper and building a global practice 07:18 What it’s really like to run a global law firm 09:38 Why communication mattered more than spreadsheets 13:06 Defining DLA Piper’s strategy and market position 17:17 Why not every firm can chase top-tier private equity 19:06 What DLA Piper was really trying to be 21:49 Sector strategy, brand focus and resisting dilution 26:50 What’s driving the current merger wave 30:48 Why Europe is the missed opportunity for UK firms 38:19 M&A, lateral hires and the limits of external capital 42:07 How AI will change what law firms sell About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    47 min
  3. Do law firm mergers actually work?

    JAN 27

    Do law firm mergers actually work?

    In this episode, we’re joined by Robert Millard, founder of Cambridge Strategy Group and one of the leading thinkers on law firm strategy and mergers. Robert’s route into the legal industry is anything but conventional - from running a national park in Namibia, to advising law firms around the world, to spending time in-house as a business strategist at Linklaters - before completing a PhD on large law firm mergers over the past two decades. A big focus of the conversation is what “strategy” actually means in a law firm context and why it’s so often misunderstood. Robert argues that strategy is about diagnosing and solving a real problem, not producing glossy five-year plans or chasing league table positions. They discuss why rigid strategy cycles struggle in a fast-changing world, how AI is reshaping client expectations, and why firms need to become much better at listening to clients and adapting in real time. Robert then unpacks the findings from his doctoral research into 73 major law firm mergers. He explains how he built a data-driven framework to measure success, cutting through the cliché that “most mergers fail” and why roughly three-quarters of the mergers he studied actually delivered real growth. The discussion also covers what makes transatlantic combinations work, why New York still matters, and the risks of merging with firms in decline. Finally, the episode looks ahead. Robert shares practical advice for firm leaders considering a merger, from spotting red flags in due diligence to avoiding nostalgia for a “golden age” of legal practice. The conversation closes with a clear message: the firms that succeed will be those that stay close to their clients, remain agile, and are willing to rethink how they operate as the market continues to change. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/  Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 From conservation to legal strategy 03:09 Why Robert did a PhD on law firm mergers 04:00 What strategy really means in a law firm 06:10 Why traditional strategy cycles no longer work 07:47 Clients, AI and the need for constant adaptation 09:44 The problem with league tables and five-year plans 14:04 When firms are forced to rethink their strategy 19:15 How to measure whether law firm mergers succeed 25:15 What makes transatlantic mergers work and fail 40:22 What law firm leaders should stop doing now About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    42 min
  4. Inside the battle for the City’s best associate talent

    JAN 20

    Inside the battle for the City’s best associate talent

    In this episode, we sit down with Ria Karnik, who leads the associate recruitment team in London at Major, Lindsey & Africa, to unpack what’s really happening in the City talent market, and why the associate level has become the key battleground. Ria shares a recruiter’s-eye view of how US firms have reshaped hiring in London, where demand is strongest right now, and why mid-level lawyers are more sought after than ever. We get into which practice areas are driving growth - from private equity, leveraged finance and private credit through to litigation, tax and competition - and how US firms are quietly building out fuller-service London offices. Ria also explains how partner moves are feeding through to associate hiring, and why firms with a clear strategy and specialism are winning the war for talent. The conversation then turns to pay, progression and pressure points. Ria breaks down the reality behind NQ salary headlines, the growing issue of salary bunching at UK firms, and why transparency around pay, bonuses and career paths has become such a differentiator. She also explores how early US firms are now targeting trainees, and what that means for specialisation, training contracts and junior career decisions. Finally, Ria shares practical advice for both lawyers and firms. For associates thinking about a move in 2026, she explains why understanding your motivations, and exploring a few well-chosen options, matters more than chasing a single name. For firms, she sets out what it really takes to attract and retain talent today, from culture and mentoring to clarity on progression and long-term vision. The Non-Billable Podcast is sponsored by Legora. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 Ria’s legal recruitment experience 02:26 Major, Lindsey & Africa and its global reach 04:19 Where demand for associate talent is strongest 05:50 The practice areas driving hiring in London 09:00 Life beyond US firms – opportunities across the City 10:23 US firms targeting trainees earlier than ever 15:59 Salaries, bonuses and the reality behind the numbers 21:12 What associates really want from their careers 26:10 How law firms can attract and retain top talent 38:29 Ria’s advice for lawyers considering a move in 2026 About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    40 min
  5. Why more Big Law partners are choosing to go it alone

    JAN 13

    Why more Big Law partners are choosing to go it alone

    James Hacking and Mike Estill from Kindleworth join the show to unpack one of the more salient shifts in Big Law right now: senior partners leaving large firms to launch specialist practices - and why the market is suddenly making that move feel much more doable. They explain Kindleworth’s model: helping partners with client followings set up boutique or specialist firms “of their design”, then running the day-to-day operational backbone once the doors are open. The conversation digs into some of the best-known projects they’ve been involved in, including Pallas and the rapid Rosenblatt spin-out, and what those launches reveal about how quickly new firms can be stood up when the right pieces are in place. A big theme is friction, and how to remove it. Hacking and Estill argue that better access to capital, dramatically improved tech, and a growing pool of partners who don’t fit neatly inside the strategic priorities of ever-bigger global firms. They talk about conflicts in the broad sense - not just classic conflicts of interest, but conflicts of strategy, pricing and business model - and why that opens space for focused firms built around a portable book of business and a clear vision. The episode also looks ahead: why Burford Capital invested in Kindleworth, what a US expansion could look like, and how technology and outside capital could enable a new breed of “scale specialist” firms. The practical takeaway is simple: if you’ve got the itch to go it alone, don’t be scared of exploring it - because the fastest way to get clarity is to start having the right conversations. To find out more about Legora, visit: https://legora.com/ Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:20 Kindleworth Origins & Founder Backgrounds 02:20 What Kindleworth Does & Who It’s For 03:56 High-Profile Launches & the Rosenblatt Rescue 05:17 Burford Capital & Funding Law Firm Spin-Outs 08:08 Why Kindleworth Is Taking the Model to the US 12:11 Why Starting Fresh Beats Fixing Big Law 14:13 Which Practice Areas Are Ripe for Breakaways 18:18 Advice for Partners Thinking of Leaving 26:03 Pricing Pressure, AI & New Firm Economics 38:53 The Upside: Freedom, Ownership & Building Legacy About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    41 min
  6. Quinn Emanuel co-founder John Quinn on building a global disputes powerhouse

    12/16/2025

    Quinn Emanuel co-founder John Quinn on building a global disputes powerhouse

    John Quinn is one of the most influential figures in modern Big Law. In this episode, he reflects on how Quinn Emanuel grew from a four-lawyer spin-out in Los Angeles into the world’s leading litigation-only firm - which is constantly rated as the the “most feared” firm. Quinn explains that the disputes-only model wasn’t fully formed on day one, but became a powerful differentiator once the firm realised that “we do one thing and we think we’re the best at that,” rather than trying to be everything to everybody. A central theme of the conversation is why specialisation - particularly being willing to act against the world’s largest commercial banks - created an “unmet need in the marketplace” that full-service firms couldn’t fill because of conflicts. Quinn also discusses how that focus helped build internal cohesion: “we’re all litigators,” he says, which avoids the fragmentation he sees inside large full-service partnerships. Quinn offers a candid comparison between litigation in the US and the UK, from the power of depositions and jury trials to the cost structures and role of regulators like the DOJ. He also shares his perspective on the evolution of Big Law, including rising concentration at the top end, the erosion of lockstep, the growth of non-equity partnerships, and why he thinks the business of law itself “hasn’t changed much,” despite constant talk of transformation. The episode closes with Quinn’s views on AI, private equity investment in law firms, and what actually makes a great lawyer. Chapters 00:01 Introduction 00:55 On launching Law Disrupted and staying busy 03:38 Founding Quinn Emanuel and the early years 05:02 Why Quinn Emanuel became a litigation only firm 08:14 Suing the banks and finding an unmet market niche 09:40 Opening London before the financial crisis 10:07 Building the world’s largest patent litigation practice 11:51 US vs UK litigation and the power of depositions 16:04 Costs, risk and why US litigation works differently 20:52 How Big Law has changed and why the strongest firms win 22:23 Why law is a “stupid business” structurally 24:26 Lockstep, partner pay and the rise of superstar compensation 33:14 Private equity, external capital and law firm ownership 35:11 Why AI won’t replace litigators anytime soon 40:26 What makes a great lawyer and why judgment matters most About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    42 min
  7. The US law firm shaking up London - with partner pay Big Law rivals can't match

    12/09/2025

    The US law firm shaking up London - with partner pay Big Law rivals can't match

    Pierson Ferdinand launched in January 2024 in what it says was the largest law firm debut in US history - starting with around 130 partners and growing to more than 270 in under two years. In this episode, co-founders Michael Pierson and Joel Ferdinand explain the model behind what they call an “AI-native,” fully distributed, partner-only law firm. They break down how the structure works: no physical offices, every lawyer signs a partnership agreement, and compensation is decided by a formula-based algorithm that updates in real time. Partners keep a far greater share of their billings than in Big Law, with Michael noting that most lawyers who join “earn 2 to 3x what they were earning” at traditional firms. Pay is completely transparent: every partner can see every other partner’s earnings inside the firm’s internal app. A big part of the model is technology. The firm mandates firm-wide licences for Harvey AI and uses additional tools across the business to automate both back-office processes and junior-level work - something they say they’ve “replaced almost all of” already. AI is now part of standard workflows: summarising due diligence, producing first drafts, organising deal terms and creating client-ready matrices and charts. Michael and Joel also discuss their London expansion - already more than 20 fee-earners and growing - and their recruitment pitch: a chance to escape the traditional hierarchy, avoid massive infrastructure costs, and build a practice with more autonomy and more upside. “Happy lawyers make better lawyers,” Joel says. “We’ve been purpose-built for people who want something different.” Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:00 Introducing Pierson Ferdinand & the Founders 02:20 How the Firm Launched as the Largest Debut in US History 03:37 Inside the Distributed, Partner-Only Model 04:29 How Partnership, Compensation & the “Pro Algorithm” Work 06:48 Why Remote-First Makes the Economics Work 07:22 Firm vs Partner Clients & How Work Is Shared 08:40 How Matters Are Staffed Without Associates 10:11 Horizontal Integration & Internal Work-Sharing 11:16 The Pitch to Clients: Big-Law Quality at One-Third Less 13:01 The Firm’s AI Strategy - Harvey & Beyond 15:58 Could This Model Work Without AI? 17:13 What Lawyers Want: Frustrations With Traditional Big Law 18:23 London Launch: Practice Areas & Early Momentum 21:14 Competing in London’s Hyper-Competitive Market 22:19 The Pitch to London Laterals 24:17 Can Partners Earn as Much as at Kirkland or Paul Weiss? 27:02 Radical Transparency: Everyone Sees Everyone’s Pay 28:02 The Big Catch - Why This Model Isn’t for Everyone 30:08 Growth Plans for the Next Five Years 31:43 Culture, Community & Why “Happy Lawyers Make Better Lawyers” About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    33 min
  8. Leaving Big Law to start an AI-enabled boutique

    12/02/2025

    Leaving Big Law to start an AI-enabled boutique

    In this episode, we speak with Simon Leaf - a former Mishcon de Reya partner who has launched Three Points Law, a tech-enabled boutique focused on technology, sport and commercial/IP work alongside fellow former Mishcon lawyer Tom Murray. After 15 years in Big Law, Simon left to build a firm that uses AI from day one and is structured for the kind of fast, high-volume commercial work he handles. Simon explains why the traditional model no longer fits. As his hourly rate rose and teams grew around him, he felt further from clients and constrained by incentives tied to billable hours. At Three Points, he’s leaning into value-driven pricing and using AI to cut out most junior-level work so he and co-founder Tom can stay close to clients and move faster. He shares how the firm is using Legora and other AI tools across the workflow - from business development and fee proposals to standardised contract review processes. The tech isn’t perfect, he says, but in the hands of experienced lawyers it’s powerful enough that he’s “100%” confident it replaces the need for junior hires. The early traction has been strong enough that they’re already recruiting senior lawyers instead. Simon also breaks down the mechanics of starting a modern boutique: partnering with Excello for back-office and regulatory support, avoiding external capital to stay client-focused, and building a culture where he can do high-quality work without the pressures of Big Law. His advice to others thinking of making the leap? If you have the relationships and the appetite to do things differently, “go for it.” Chapters 00:01 Introduction 01:00 Simon’s Background 01:56 Why Three Points Law? 03:09 Life at Mishcon & Leading the Sports Group 03:46 Inside Premier League Player Contracts 06:23 Why Big Law No Longer Fit 09:10 The Billable Hour Problem 10:58 Going All-In on AI from Day One 13:23 How AI Replaces Junior Work 16:23 Moving Away from the Billable Hour 19:12 Why Human Lawyers Still Matter 20:18 Will More Boutiques Break Away? 21:58 Three Points’ Vision and Culture 23:18 How They Set Up the Firm 27:41 Advice for Aspiring Boutique Founders About Non-Billable Non-Billable is the media company for modern legal professionals across private practice, in-house and legal tech. Visit our website: ⁠⁠https://www.nonbillable.co.uk

    28 min
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About

The Non-Billable Podcast takes UK legal professionals beyond the billable hour, bringing you interviews with top lawyers, law firm leaders, industry experts and legal tech innovators to uncover actionable insights on the business of law, career growth and the future of the industry. Hosted by Oliver Attinger, a former finance lawyer at a leading City law firm - now asking the questions he wished he had when he was practising. Brought to you by Non-Billable, the legal media platform for City lawyers, in-house counsel, and legal professionals.

Information

  • Creator
    Non-Billable
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    39
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Non-Billable
  • Show Website
    The Non-Billable Podcast

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