Unboxing It with Lara and Rowan

Lara Wellman
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  • Society & Culture

Lara Wellman and Rowan Jetté Knox are here to unpack all the topics that have us feeling confused, that keep us feeling small or stuck in shame, and that stop us from thriving as our authentic selves. unboxingit.substack.com

  1. Sep 22

    Season 2 Episode 3: Should you forgive them

    Alexander Pope once said: “To err is human, to forgive, divine.” Humanity places a significant weight on the ability to forgive. We’re told doing so is to be the bigger person, and that it will free us from the shackles of resentment. “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong,” said Gandhi. But what if forgiveness feels… forced? Wrong? What if we don’t believe the person deserves it? Is there a time when holding a grudge is the healthier choice in some cases? In this episode of Unboxing It, Rowan and Lara get real about the push for forgiveness and how it intertwines with people-pleasing, boundary setting, and inner peace. What are your thoughts around resentment and the art of forgiving? We’d love to hear some different perspectives. Let us know by leaving a comment on our Substack or hitting reply if you’re getting this via email. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

  2. Sep 4

    Season 2 Episode 2: Turning 50

    Lara here. Rowan and I both turned 50 this summer. A half-century is nothing to sneeze at, and we’ve both spent time contemplating what it means. Are we over the hill? Just hitting our stride? Maybe a bit of both? On this week’s episode, we talk through all the feelings we have about aging - good and bad - and what milestone birthdays mean to society and to both of us. Our special guest this week is Rowan’s lower back. We’d also love to hear from you: What do milestone birthdays mean to you? Are they a time to celebrate, dread, or reflect? Links Episode 24 - Being an adult Episode 25 - Aging and Pain with Marie Shinmoto Episode 27 - Aging against conformity with Julie Broczkowski This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

    Season 2 Episode 2: Turning 50

  3. Aug 19

    Season 2 Episode 1 - Asking for and accepting help

    Aaaand, we’re back! After a bit of an unexpected summer hiatus, we’re dusting off our mics for season 2 of Unboxing It! And what better way to get started than an update on why we had to step away in the first place? Like many new businesses, Rowan’s cafe has had its share of growing pains. But what happens when your entire air conditioning unit breaks down and you’re left with a bill you can’t cover? And, to make it worse, what if you were taught not to ask for help? That you can and should be able to figure it out on your own? This episode is all about asking for, and accepting, help. Society teaches us that true strength is independence. But what if mutual aid is the right way forward? Swallowing our pride can be hard, but sometimes it’s the best thing we can do. Links Understory This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unboxingit.substack.com/subscribe

  4. Jun 11

    Summer Remix: Is that fair?

    For the month of June, we are bringing back some of our earlier episodes. These are episodes that we either wish had gotten a few more listens, or that were popular and we want to make sure new listeners have a chance to hear them. We will be back to our regular podcast recording schedule this summer! As Rowan and Lara know all too well, life isn’t always fair. We wish it was, but since it isn’t, we tackled ways we can make the best of situations that don’t feel just. We mostly did this with butter tart and cupboard door examples, though we didn’t always see eye to eye on some key points in said examples (don’t get Rowan started on the importance of the butter tart unless you want a debate on your hands).Let us know in the comments if you have anything to add to the conversation (about fairness OR butter tarts. Just… remember how sensitive Rowan is). Things we referenced in the episode Episode on Unexpected Change Doo Doo’s Bakery Want more of Lara and Rowan? Rowan is available for speaking engagements, and Lara has coaching spots available. Transcript Please note : we don’t edit these automatically generated transcripts carefully so there may be some errors. 00:00:00] Rowan: A lot of life is things that happen to us. And a lot of what kind of joy and happiness and connection and peace that we find is how we choose to deal with those things. . Thanks for joining us on this week’s episode of Unboxing It. I’m Rowan. [00:00:41] Lara: And I’m Lara. [00:00:42] Rowan: And today we’re talking about a topic that it’s a thing that I say all the time and I have to check myself, but fairness, and you know when something happens and you go. That’s not fair. Mm-hmm. That’s not fair. Right? [00:00:58] Lara: Yeah, it’s not fair. It’s a big feeling that can be really crushing or just like veer you off when you feel it. [00:01:10] Rowan: It’s that sense of injustice for me. And I think in part, like, I wanna talk about why we chose this topic. We chose it because there’s this idea when we’re growing up, I think that life should be fair. That everything should be balanced. You know, and, I wanna preface this by saying I’m a human rights advocate, so I am all about equity. I want to see people have the same opportunities as other people, no matter who they are, where they come from. And I will continue to always fight for that, but in my own life. I can feel a sense of injustice, like it is nobody’s business. I do not like injustice when I feel that something isn’t fair. I haven’t been given a fair shake. I’ve been dealt a worse hand than somebody else. I can stew in that for days sometimes. I don’t know about you, Lara. [00:02:12] Lara: Yeah, I think it’s really easy to get into this really angry place where it’s not fair, how come I have to deal with this and you don’t have to deal with this? why am I dealt this hand? And it’s difficult to get through it when you feel like that. That’s one of those things that brings up resentment something that I think just poisons everything. Whenever you’re in a moment of resentment, I think something needs to be fixed, which is, you know, all part and parcel of this conversation. What does it mean when something isn’t fair? What do you do when something isn’t fair? Do you have to accept that life isn’t fair and just like let everybody rumble over you? Or are there solutions, like what is the solution? So I think that’s what we’re gonna get to dig into because. There’s lots of ways to look at this. There’s lots of ways to think about this. There’s a lot of ways to feel about this and I never think there’s just one way through. So we’re gonna talk about the different parts, the different strategies, the different ways to internalize all of this. [00:03:17] Rowan: Where do you think the idea, like did you get your sense of fairness? Do you think It’s taught to us by our parents. Do you think it’s taught to us by school or the media? What do you think? [00:03:29] Lara: Probably all of the above, right? again, just like all kinds of things, what we’re taught in the words and then what we see in action are not always the same, right? So like everything needs to be fair. There’s law, there’s judges, there’s rules. And so we talk about it and I think this is probably one of the ways that we get all messed up about it, is we talk about it as in everything should be fair. Everything has a way of being. Everything has rules and rights and wrongs. And then because in life that actually isn’t true, right? Like there’s so many gray areas, there’s so much wiggle room on all of the sides that what we were told doesn’t play out in real life. And so it feels like we’re making a mistake. It feels like something isn’t working when really. It was never meant to be that black and white. [00:04:23] Rowan: Ooh. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think morals, we’re taught morals, right? The difference between right and wrong, and I. I was raised Catholic, so that was drilled into me this idea. I mean like, look what Eve did with the Apple while she broke that rule. Well, obviously they should be cast out of the Garden of Eden and suffer. Right? and that sort of permeates a lot of my thoughts around fairness. So, Again, I, want to say that privilege is a real thing and that there are people born into or find themselves in situations that are unjust. Like they don’t get, the same starting point as someone else. Like I have very, very fair skin and I do not have to deal with racism, for example. And if somebody has to deal with racism that is truly unjust, that’s not fair. And the fact that they can’t, I. Have the same opportunities sometimes, or not have them as easily as I can because of the color of their skin is not right. but I think what I wanna talk about more than that, because we have to keep fighting for equity. I, I truly believe that I. What I wanna talk about more is like when things happen to us personally, like a job loss or an illness or a breakup, or you know, just something that happens to us that maybe isn’t happening to other people around us and maybe is, nothing to do with any decisions that we have made. Any choices, any actions that can feel. Hugely unfair and I wanna explore how to deal with that. [00:06:06] Lara: Yeah. So first, again, I think you and I are very much on the same page when it comes to privilege and understanding that there are things that should be improved in this world, but when it comes to what we have control over and how we can navigate certain conversations, I think it is a really big. Important conversation and knowing that what feels unfair to us probably doesn’t feel unfair to somebody else is also important, right? Like what feels fair and unfair might not be that black and white thing. So being able to think through what we’re feeling, what other people are feeling, what the stories we’re telling are around it, and how to navigate that is part of this. [00:06:47] Rowan: I would love to know, like, can you think off the top of your head of an example of something that maybe might feel unfair to me, but feels perfectly fine for you?, Not us specifically, obviously, but like what do you have an idea of like what that might feel like? I do, I have one that I can share. And that is, I have somebody who. Talked to me recently about his job loss, and he said, you know, I lost my job and I’ve lost my job before. And I felt that was very unfair. And he lost his job. And he was like, well, that’s just the way business is sometimes. and people downsize. And honestly, I wasn’t very happy there anyway. And so it just created an opportunity for me. And he sort of went on about that, right. But I was like, wow. Like you didn’t have even a moment of being angry and he is like, no, I was more like relieved than anything. So that, I think it just depends on how you look at things sometimes, maybe. [00:07:43] Lara: Yeah. I mean, that’s a really interesting one because part of the reaction to the same situation was based on how. You felt going into it, right? So if you’re like, I didn’t really like this job anyway, what a relief that I don’t have to quit. I don’t have to tell people that I quit a perfectly good job with nothing lined up after because it wasn’t my fault because they downsized me, right? Like it becomes this freedom giving situation, whereas to somebody else who wanted to stay in that job, it does not feel like that at all. And. Is that a fair or unfair thing, or is it just a how you react to a thing that happened to you and you know, is it fair if you were downsized because honestly the company was in, a lot of financial trouble and they truly needed to downsize? Or if they downsized, you just downsized, quote unquote, as an excuse to get rid of somebody that they just. Didn’t want around anymore. And you know that, right? Like there are differences other than just straight they downsized. That would help make you feel fair or unfair. But I also think a lot of people tend to lean one way or the other, like when things happen, it’s unfair, or when things happen. I guess we figure out what comes next, right? Like there are different ways that people tend to feel and think in a common way. Does that make sense? [00:09:10] Rowan: Oh, it makes total sense. I mean, I know I started this by saying that when I feel something’s unfair, I can stew in it for days. And, that is still true to some extent. I can have these situations where I’m like, oh, it’s not fair. It’s not right, and I’m really angry about it, and I can stay there for a while that resentment can build and that’s something that I am working on as a human being. But there also have been plenty of times in my life where I have had something unfair or what I might feel is unfair happen to me and. I recognize fairly quickly that this is something that has pushed me ou

  5. May 21

    45: It's OK to not be OK

    How many times have you had this exchange? ”Hi, how are you today?” “Good. How are you?” “I’m well, thank you.” We do this largely inauthentic dance every time we’re out in the world. We ask how someone is doing. They’re supposed to answer that they’re good. They ask that question back and our answer is expected to be the same. We don’t generally deviate from the script or things can get awkward. But are you good? I mean, are you even okay with everything happening right now? Probably not. And frankly, neither are we. In this episode, we chat about the importance of not only admitting we’re not okay, but learning to live with that. It might sound pessimistic, but we promise you it isn’t. Because maybe life is about finding some happiness in the midst of all the ick, and that doing so makes it even sweeter when we find it. Links Transcript [00:00:00] Lara: It is not restful to sit on the couch doing nothing, but also worrying about all the things that you were supposed to do and feeling guilty that you’re not doing them. That is not restful. Welcome to Unboxing It. I’m Lara. [00:00:37] Rowan: And I’m Rowan. [00:00:38] Lara: And today, Rowan, I’m wondering, are you okay? [00:00:41] Rowan: No. [00:00:42] Lara: No. [00:00:44] Rowan: No, I’m not okay. It- that’s all right to say, right? Like, No. I mean, am I okay enough to function? Yes. Am I okay overall? No. Yeah. Who is right now? [00:00:54] Lara: Exactly. Who is right now? And so that’s why today we’re gonna talk a little bit about why it’s okay to not be okay, because I don’t think, generally speaking, we think it’s okay to not be okay. And I will always remember having somebody react really negatively to that statement, because they felt like it was giving people permission to give up. And instead, what I think it’s okay to not be okay means is you don’t have to pretend everything’s okay. You get to still feel your feelings. You still get to just admit what’s going on with you and figure out what comes next. It doesn’t mean, permission to crawl into a hole and never come out again. [00:01:44] Rowan: This is built right into our society. . I mean, I know, because I make this exchange with people sometimes hundreds of times a day as a barista, right? People come into my coffee shop, I’m at the counter, and we ask each other how we are. And the correct response, societally speaking, is, “I’m doing well. How are you?” “I’m good. I’m great.” Right? you’re supposed to tell people you’re doing well. That is the expectation. I’ve stopped doing that, by the way. If I am doing well, I say it. And if I’m not, I say, “I’m okay,” or, “It’s been a bit of a day, but here I am,” right? Or whatever. Like, I will actually respond authentically, which I think has given them permission to respond to me authentically, too. I’ve had some really lovely short but meaningful exchanges, just by answering honestly. [00:02:41] Lara: And I don’t know that I always answer honestly, but I’ve stopped saying good, right? “How are you?” “ I’m all right.” Yeah. Which generally means, I’m coping. I think that’s what that means, right? I’m moving through life. I am surviving. We are okay. Not to say- Everything is terrible all of the time, but there is a lot of times where there’s a lot going on, and I don’t feel, quote-unquote, “good,” so I’m not gonna say it. [00:03:08] Rowan: I don’t know a lot of people who feel good right now. It’s not like we haven’t had problems in the world before. Of course, we’ve had problems. We’ve had tons of problems, but I think in our generation at least, and you know, you and I are Gen X, we did have things like the Cold War, and we’ve had wars, we’ve had upsets, we’ve had a lot of things, but we have lived in a relatively stable time, and now w- the world is descending into fascism. and again, I don’t want to say that these things haven’t happened in parts of the world. I’m just saying in Western society in the last little while, it wasn’t awful Mm-hmm until now. Now it’s awful. - and we’re Canadian, and right now, people can feel how they wanna feel about our politics, but we do have a majority government right now that is not a fascist regime. So I’m happy about that. I feel that gives us some level of protection. But there’s so much more happening. so on top of our regular lives and all of the stressors that we all have to some extent, ailing parents, kids, friendship issues, relationship issues, chronic illnesses, all these different things that are going on, job security, whatever might be happening , in our day-to-day lives, we also have this undercurrent of political upheaval that is frankly terrifying. There are parts of the world running out of fuel right now. And I don’t know. I don’t know a single person who has just completely ignored all of that. Even if you try to just shut it off, it’s there in the background, and frankly, not that I wanna get too woo-woo about this, but the energy is there. You can feel it in people. You can feel it when you’re in a crowd. We know what’s going on, and we have that common understanding of it, and I think it is weighing a lot of us down. [00:05:10] Lara: For sure. I think it wasn’t just at COVID, because there were a few years before COVID where it wasn’t fantastic, but I feel like since COVID in particular, there’s just always something. There’s always something stressful to ponder, to think, “What’s gonna happen next?” To think, “ What’s going on?” And there’s a lot of people Who have had COVID, who have long COVID, who are struggling with more health problems than they had before. there’s just a lot. There’s just a lot, and I think that if we pretend that there’s not a lot, we’re not doing ourselves any service. And I will say this because I also like to say to people like, “Why are you being so negative,” right? So there’s a balance between pretending everything’s okay and only thinking about what’s negative and focusing on the negative. I think that things can be not particularly okay, but you can still look for the positive side of things, and that’s where I think this balance of saying I’m not okay doesn’t mean I’m giving up, but it does acknowledge that things are not fantastic for me right now, right? That I am having a hard time, and it’s easier to get support when you admit that to yourself and when the people around you know that’s true. [00:06:30] Rowan: And I think that some of us deal with some mental health issues that are pervasive and are activated. They flare up like any other kind of chronic illness, if you wanna look at it that way. I do kinda look at my CPTSD and anxiety disorder as chronic illnesses. I’ve had them my whole life. I manage them like any other illness. I have tools at my disposal. But there are times when they really do flare up, like an autoimmune disorder or something like that, where there’s a few days or a few weeks or a few months where it’s particularly bad, and it makes it harder to function. So, I don’t need to explain what generalized anxiety disorder is. But, it is basically that your anxiety is to a point where it really does affect your daily life, and it can take various forms. I’ve had it flip more towards OCD. I’ve had it flip more towards health anxiety or somatic health anxiety, somatic anxiety. So something’s wrong with my body. I have to check all my symptoms. I’ve talked about that before. And then I also have CPTSD, which is complex post-traumatic stress disorder, and that is brought on from what were years of trauma. So- Repeated trauma. We know about PTSD, where PTSD is, maybe you had one frightening, one really traumatic incident where you feared for your life or a short burst of incidences inside of, a short time, say you were at war for a few months or whatever it might be, right? And then you develop PTSD. So it’s like that, but it’s more repeat traumatic events over time, usually spanning years. And so that’s what I have had since childhood, and, that is what I have to manage on a daily basis. Some days I barely notice it’s there, and other days something will happen and it throws my nervous system into chaos. It’s gotten a lot better. I’ve done a lot of therapy for it, but the nervous system is the nervous system, and mine is constantly on higher alert than the average nervous system, and it is, lately I would say on much higher alert. Some of that has to do with my own life, things that have happened in my own life over the last little while, including starting a new business and all of the stress that comes with that. But also just the world, right? It’s hard to feel safe when it feels like we’re in danger all the time, where things can just flip over into terrible at any moment. so some of us who already have those issues, they get worse. And yet, I still have to function. I’m a business owner, so I can’t just nope out, right? if I need to go to work, I have to go to work. I can’t just call in sick. If I need to go run an errand, I have to go run an errand. It doesn’t matter how I’m feeling. And that is not the best way to be, but it is something that I’ve had to tell myself so many times, “It’s okay that you don’t feel 100% right now. It’s okay that you don’t feel great right now, but you still have to get this done.” And there’s a balance, right? Because I think we went from when we were younger, Lara, as Gen Xers, I think we went from, you know, you don’t talk about this stuff. You don’t talk about your feelings. Mental health’s not really a thing. ... You know, people who had mental health issues, those are the people that got, locked up in hospitals. that was a mental health issue. You can’t function at all. Anybody else, just push through it. Just push thr

  6. May 6

    44: That's Just How I Am

    There is a fine line between “I can’t change” and “I don’t want to change”. We talk about that difference, and the times when it might be worth exploring whether or not change is something you actually want to make. If it is, what mindset shifts can you make to create it? Transcript (please note, these are not edited for accuracy so might be wonky) Rowan: I personally believe the entire reason I’m here is so that I can continue to grow and develop and help others, and et cetera, right? But I can’t do that if I stay stuck and just tell myself, “This is it,” and never push beyond that. [00:00:39] Lara: Welcome to Unboxing It. I’m Lara. [00:00:41] Rowan: And I’m Rowan. [00:00:43] Lara: And we are gonna talk a little bit about who we are and whether or not we should just accept who we are in every given moment, or whether or not there’s room to spend some time thinking about it. [00:00:58] Rowan: It’s a more complicated issue than people realize it is. [00:01:02] Lara: It is. And I think that it comes down to, you know, there’s parts of us that say, “Well, that’s just who I am,” and that means you are digging your heels in and trying to demonstrate that you are empowered and not letting other people change you. And the other side of it is that I think when people say, “That’s just who I am,” it’s because they feel like it’s the opposite of being empowered. It’s where I see people saying, like, “That’s just how it goes.” And, certainly as I just said that, I was like, “Oh, that’s what I do with feeling sick. That’s just who I am, I feel sick.” But there are things that you can do. There are ways that you can look into things. There are times when doing a little reflection means that you could change things. And once you’ve done that reflection and you come up with the end result where you’re back to the same place, “Yes, that is who I am.” I think the reason this conversation is important is the difference between, “That’s just how it is,” and, “I’ve spent time thinking about this, and I have figured out that this is how it is.” And it’s such a small difference ... Like, it’s a small difference when you say it, but it’s a big difference when you think about what went into deciding and embodying and figuring out what works for you as a human being. [00:02:30] Rowan: I have so many examples of this in my personal life, but we can talk about it in a bigger context right now, a more general context. When you kept saying it like that, when you kept going like, “ That’s just who I am,” it made me think of a dad. You know? Like a stubborn middle-aged dad- Yeah ... who’s just like, “No. I, you know, I don’t do that. That’s just who I am. I don’t do that stuff.” and that is, I think we all know a dad like that. We all know a man like that. And we know some women like that. We know a lot of people like that in general. But,I know so many men like that, especially older men, who just say, “Oh, that’s just who I am. I’m not gonna change.” And it’s almost a defiance thing. Like, I think in that particular case- It feels really tied into something else that I was talking about earlier this week on Threads. I think it was yesterday. There was a, man who was talking about how he tried to be vulnerable online, and he deleted the post because he was told by a lot of people, “Women have it worse. Women have it worse.” And so he just, he’s like, “Look, if we wanna change things, we have to leave room for men to be able to be vulnerable, too.” And this led to a much deeper conversation where he got a lot of support, including from me, because I said, “Look, I’m the same person. But I lived as a woman for over 40 years, and I was allowed to express my feelings. I was allowed to grow. I was allowed to be vulnerable. I was allowed to do those things. And then now that the world sees me as a man, Like, same person, same emotions, same everything, same level of vulnerability, and I am often encouraged to keep it to myself.” And I think when we think about a man in that context, but maybe just a lot of people in general,it’s people who have tried to explore things maybe in the past, maybe a long time ago. Maybe when they were kids. Maybe they tried to make a change, and they were shut down. They were shut down really fast. society really loves to keep people in boxes. We’ve talked about this a lot. And so how much of this is learned behavior, and how much of this is maybe fear of pushing back against that learned behavior? [00:04:46] Lara: Yeah. I think it’s probably a lot of them, or all of them. perhaps throughout your life you’ve struggled to have emotional conversations, and it went badly when you tried to. I mean, this is the example you just gave. But,, that gets reinforced to the point where you think it’s not worth trying anymore. And I don’t know that everybody thinks... I don’t even know that this makes sense, but I think that there are times when people are like, “There’s no point.” Right? “So it’s not that I’m not willing to look into it. there’s no point. I’ve tried. This has been hard my whole life. I can’t change it.” And- [00:05:26] Rowan: Mm ... [00:05:26] Lara: maybe, maybe there’s some truth to that, but there’s also the idea that you can look at something in a different way, right? It’s not, that you don’t just have to try harder You don’t have to just push harder. You don’t have to be stricter. You have to think about things and unpack it. You have to ask yourself some questions. You have to ask yourself what you’re willing to do to change it. You have to ask yourself if you believe that an alternative, ending or way of being is possible. because if you don’t believe it’s possible, it’s not gonna happen. [00:06:04] Rowan: Yeah. and also I think we need to really examine the why, right? I think genuinely when we look at changing ourselves as human beings and whether or not it is worth putting the work into making that change, maybe we are pushing against beliefs, maybe we are pushing against,intrinsic behaviors we’ve had for a really long time. Maybe we’re pushing against fear. There has to be a strong reason to do that. So whenever I’m looking at making changes in my own life, I often ask myself, “ Is what I’m doing right now, is the way I’m living right now, is the way I’m behaving right now, is that working for me?” If it’s working for me, then there’s really no reason to examine it. But if it’s not working for me, no matter how difficult it might be for me to make that change, I still have to do it. I still have to at least try to do it. Because I go back to my transness, and I know I do that a lot, but it is a very... I think trans people have a special place in society in which we do something that is very difficult to do, and that a lot of people don’t understand, and we do it anyway because we really need to. we have to. And so that’s why I keep going back to that as an example in a lot of our episodes. But I, in a lot of ways, had it made as a woman, if you will, right? I was a very successful woman in my own right. was a mother. I was a wife. I literally was, like, you know, the keynote speaker multiple times at women’s events, International Women’s Day. I was, and this will only matter to Canadians, but I was a Chatelaine Woman of the Year. I was a 2020 Woman of Influence, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, as far as women go,I was doing really well at womaning. But I was miserable I was absolutely miserable. It was like a suit that never fit me. And transitioning, especially as a public figure, especially with other trans people already in my family, bringing on the whole idea of it being a contagion or something somehow- perpetuating that kind of stereotype,, that misinformation that can really harm our community. I mean, for so many reasons, being middle-aged. I mean, It was extremely challenging to do this. But I also knew that what I was doing before and who I was before wasn’t working. It just wasn’t who I was. And so that I use as an example simply because it is an extreme example, in some ways, of The way that I’m living or who I am right now just isn’t working for me. And so at that point, do I just keep going, “Well, that’s just who I am”? Because you know what? I tried the self-acceptance thing. I tried to just be like, “Well, I’m a woman.” I mean, gosh, I could not get more woman than I was, if you really wanna look at it that way. It didn’t work. So when we are examining the idea of making changes, if it is a really difficult change, it doesn’t mean necessarily that it can’t be done. It just means that we need enough motivation to do it. [00:09:24] Lara: And potentially support. So certainly as a coach, and my work as a business coach, I always leaned a little bit more to mindset and,you know, not quite life coach-y, but, it felt like that with some people, right? Because one of the things that I could often see were mindsets and ways of being that weren’t just about, well, if you just do this thing, change your pricing, and everything will be better. It’s like some of it is you don’t believe it, and that, ... maybe you need to look at that. Some of it is around confidence. I mean, mindset impacts every little, tiny inch of our lives, right? Like, it’s everywhere. And being certain that something can’t change when the result of that thing is ultimately making you unhappy is just giving in, in my opinion, right? so if you are ultimately unhappy because of something that you think is just how you are, then to me it’s worth saying, “ Well- Can we unpack that and figure out what we can do instead? And it doesn’t always mean transitioning, right? It can mean- ... just a little bit of introspection and a little bit of... So a good one for me is what

  7. Apr 22

    43: Don't Yuck Other People's Yum

    Rowan here, and I have a confession: I love Coldplay. In fact, they’re my favourite band. How do you feel about that? The reaction I get when I tell people varies, but I’m often met with negativity. “I can’t stand their music.” “They’re so overplayed.” “There are tons of indie bands that are way better, you know.” I’m one of those people who likes something popular that is often ridiculed by others. Think of the Twilight fans, Hunger Games stans, or the Swifties (and if you’re Canadian, Nickelback will come to mind, too.) But it’s not just popular things that get that kind of negativity. As humans, we’re quick to dismiss just about anything that doesn’t intrigue or excite us. When you don’t like something that someone else likes, do you tell them? And more importantly: If you do, why do you tell them? Where does that come from? This week, Lara and I talk about yucking other people’s yums and why this is so pervasive in our culture. We remind each other that we don’t all experience the same things the same way, and share some different phrasing we can all use so that we aren’t making someone else feel bad.* Let us know what you think about the judgment we hold for other people’s likes. And now I’m off to listen to Parachutes. (*Exception: Financially supporting JK Rowling. We get into that, too.) Transcript [00:00:00] Lara: you cannot like it, that’s fine, but I will not accept that. You say nobody should like this. Just because you don’t like it. [00:00:33] Rowan: Welcome to this week’s episode of Unboxing It. My name is Rowan. [00:00:36] Lara: And I’m Lara. [00:00:37] Rowan: and this week we’re covering a topic that we have chatted about ourselves just for funsies, and thought we should make this an actual. Episode and that is the concept of, and you’ve all heard this before, probably don’t yuck other people’s. Yum. What does that mean to you, Lara? [00:00:57] Lara: It means that just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it’s bad , or it doesn’t mean somebody else isn’t allowed to like something. [00:01:08] Rowan: Right, right. And then if you take that a step further, you can take that into the kink world, because that’s where I first heard of it. just from the outskirts,as a queer person listening in, when people are describing things like kinks and fetishes, and they’ll say, don’t yuck someone else’s, yum. It just means like everyone’s into different things. Something that you might really, like, somebody else might not really like or vice versa, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong or bad. So you can take that from like the fetish side of things all the way to what we have discussed. you know, books that have been really popular, for example? [00:01:48] Lara: Yeah. No, it’s all kinds of things. obviously it can be used everywhere. Kink, not where I’ve heard of it first, which is fine, but I think you know, , it really comes down to, I think in times past it was quite normalized to think that your way is the right way and that telling everybody that, Was a good idea, right? So, nope, we don’t do it like that. We don’t dress like that. You don’t wear white after Labor Day. Like ? Why is that something that I know as a rule? Because who cares what color you wear when but somehow that was like something people would say, enough that I’ve heard it and people would insist this is how you do things. This is how you dress at certain times. This is how you don’t dress. This is how you, Do your hair. there’s a million things where people are like, this is the correct way and therefore it is fine for me to say that your way if it is not that way, is wrong. [00:02:49] Rowan: I first got introduced to this concept, probably a lot earlier than that, back in, elementary school. I remember that people were wearing Converse or, converse all stars back in the eighties. I couldn’t afford Converse. My parents got me Panthers. It was the Zellers version. And if you’re Canadian, you know exactly what I’m talking about when I say the Zellers version of something. Unless you’re a really young Canadian, in which case. I’m sorry you did not get to experience the amazingness. That was Zellers.. but more so when I got into music and it was almost like you had to pick a lane when it came to music. So you had, I was a head banger as we called them in the day. I liked all the,metal bands, everything from, you know, mega death to the hairbands, like Motley Crewe, that sort of thing. And. That was my yum. And somebody else who was really into pop might have been like. That’s awful. I hate that stuff. No, you have to like this stuff. My music’s the best. and then people who say liked rock would say, ah, pop, it’s all fabricated. It’s synth. It’s,just, recorded one track at a time. or these metal bands, they go in and they all play together, which wasn’t necessarily true, but that’s what we believed. And youwould have this, back and forth of, mine is the best, no, yours is the best. And. We see that now, but almost in a different way too. I remember when speaking of kinks, 50 Shades of Gray came out. I think a lot of us of a certain era of a certain age, remember when that book came out and I never read it. I never read it specifically, not because I had an issue at the time with the content, although there’s been much discussion about the content these days and it’s been really analyzed in different ways and made a lot of people think. But at the time it wasn’t because it was, offensive to me somehow. It was more that a friend of mine whose opinion I really respect. Asked me, have you read this book yet? And I said, no. And she said, don’t read it. it’s terribly written. It’s gonna, as a writer, it’s going to drive you crazy. You’re not gonna be able to handle it. And I will admit that first of all, I do not consider myself a fantastic writer. other people have said that they think I’m a good writer. Thank you. I don’t think I’m terrible. I just don’t think I’m like way up there like a lot of people whose writing I really respect. But I wouldn’t say I’m a bad writer either. But again, that’s debatable. I have an issue with. Poorly edited books more than anything. I think a lot of writers,you know, we write our drafts and then we send them to the editor and then the editor sends them back. And if we’re lucky, we have a really good editor who can kind ofpoint out where we can maybe not repeat the same words or phrases all the time. Maybe we can switch things up, use a different word here, use a, different way of describing this there. And. I find sometimes, and this is what she was telling me with this particular book, she said the thing that would drive me crazy was that it repeated itself a lot. There wasn’t a lot of originality in the wording, and so it would be really hard to get into the story. If you take that, you kind of transpose it into a lot of other things. You have people who have said the same thing about Twilight. You’ve had people who said the same things about, I mean, I could just go on, there’s a lot of books - Shopaholic series. a lot of these books that have been huge for some groups of people have also been completely mocked, ridiculed, and dismissed by others. And there’s definitely a psychological phenomenon going on there. [00:06:33] Lara: Yeah, a bunch of the ones that you mentioned, 50 Shades is one, Twilight is another one. I’ve heard it about Hunger Games. Lots and lots of books get this. It’s not well written, criticism in a way that suggests to me they think you should never read or like that book. It’s not even well written. And I would like to say. Then why have millions and millions of people read the books? Loved the books, shared the books, told other people to read the books, right? I think part of it is that it’s a compelling story to many people and whether or not it is exceptionally well written. It obviously didn’t take away from the story that people are loving. Right. Could it have been written better or more grammatically correct, or edited better? All of those things? Sure. But people still liked it, which tells me that it was good regardless. You know?I guess it depends what. Definition of good you’re using, but if people liked it, then stop acting like they shouldn’t like it because it wasn’t written a certain way. I also think the way that I read. I don’t know that I skim everything, but I do skim sections. I skip sections. If I’m like, just take me to the next dialogue, or like,I’ll just take like the feeling of a paragraph instead of reading it carefully. So I’m very happy with the book, There’s no issue that I have with the writing, and when people are like, this is written so poorly, how could you have read it? I’m like, oh. Okay. I think I’m much better now. I don’t really care if people say that now, but there was a time where I’d be like, oh, it makes you feel like, oh, I shouldn’t have liked it. Or maybe I’m not good enough in English to know when something’s badly written. Right? Like there’s a lot that comes with people saying it’s badly written, you should never read it. It’s different to say as somebody who I know really appreciates, literature of a certain kind, I don’t think you will enjoy this book, which is very different than don’t read it. It’s terrible in every way. And it just really gets me when people act like a book that is as popular as Twilight or 50 shades is just being slammed constantly. just don’t read it. Then [00:08:57] Rowan: as a species, we really enjoy being morally superior. I do know this psychological reasoning and I had to research it for, funny enough, my last book and shaming others for something has. A survival element to it. So hear me out. When we all used to live back in cave days and you had a small group of people you r

  8. Apr 8

    42: Heated Rivalry Part 2

    The first Heated Rivalry Episode became our most downloaded podcast episode ever - and we know we left you hanging when we only got through 3 of Lara’s 8 topics in the first episode (she had so many notes!) Lace up those skates, because we’re back for a second episode on this megahit of a show. Today we dig into themes like consent, bi representation, and parasocial relationships. Have any other topics you’d like to us to cover? Drop us an email or let us know in the comments. And don’t forget to subscribe on Substack or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Our audience is growing and we’d love to have you join us! Transcript [00:00:00] Rowan: we need to show some grace. To any actor, any artist at all, anybody who has any level of fame, to show them some grace and just let them have a little bit of privacy. Welcome to unboxing it. I’m Lara. And I’m Rowan. [00:00:38] Lara: And we are back for more Heated Rivalry, which as everyone who has been listening to the show since the beginning of 2026 knows is something I’m all right with. [00:00:50] Rowan: It’s something I’m all right with too. I mean, I wasn’t going to do two episodes on this, but I love the show since you forced me to watch it. [00:00:59] Lara: Which you’re not the only one. I have, we won’t say forced. We will say strongly encouraged to watch the show because I think it’s great. So we did episode one. It’s one of our most listened to most downloaded episodes ever. We clearly have some people who were just out there, searching for Heated Rivalry content, and I am. Thrilled to have you here and hope that you continue to enjoy the takes that we have on our topics. [00:01:28] Rowan: And like, full disclosure, I have let Lara lead this thing, so I once again do not even know what these topics are that we’re talking about today. I said. Surprise me. just lay it on me and,get my full, unfiltered reaction to whatever it is we’re talking about today. [00:01:48] Lara: Yes. So one of the things that I think I heard most from the first episode we did of Heated Rivalry content was that I announced that I had eight points I wanted to cover during our chat. And we got through three and people are like, what are the other five? So you get to hear, more of those five today and we’ll see how many we can cover this time. [00:02:12] Rowan: I’m hoping for all five, but I don’t think we’re gonna get there. I have a feeling that we’re going to have lots to talk about. So, you know, at worst, what we do, a third episode, I’m all right with that. [00:02:23] Lara: And a lot of these topics, as we did in the first one, we’re using Heated Rivalry as a point of context to talk about topics that I think were important to talk about. But then that becomes a little bit more than a conversation just about the show, right? this isn’t just, let’s pick apart . This show or this book, it’s, these are topics that come up and I’m so glad they came up and this is why, and this is, maybe how they did it, but this is why we need to keep talking about that topic because I think it’s important. So yeah, we may or may not get through them all. I also know, we’ve gotten feedback from people. They’re like, Hey, talk more about queer joy. Talk more about, So many different parts we talked about last time, we could go deeper. So who knows what the future will bring. this is not a Heated Rivalry podcast, but you know, if it’s my special interest this year, it’s gonna come up a lot. [00:03:20] Rowan: And boy has it come up a lot. [00:03:23] Lara: Listen, I try not to make it be all I talk about, but it’s relevant. It is relevant to what we do here. So let’s just bring the things I love together. [00:03:35] Rowan: Perfect. Let’s do it. [00:03:36] Lara: So the next point on my list was about consent. [00:03:42] Rowan: Mm. [00:03:43] Lara: In this show they do such a beautiful job of modeling consent, so it’s not like this conversation where it’s like, consent is important. Do you give consent sign on this line? But I think that as people who grew up in the nineties. Consent was not something we talked about. In fact, I feel like the way that I was taught to deal with relationships was to expect to have my feelings, not always taken into consideration to expect people to try to maybe, bulldoze over my consent and to try to figure out how to make sure. That I knew how to set boundaries and say no, and it was my job to know to say no loudly versus the conversations around consent that have come up since then where we talk about the fact that we have the right to say no to anything that is happening to our bodies. And I think that we need to talk about that more. And in the show. Ilya in particular is very good at consistently asking for consent. Like, is this okay? Do you want to do this? Do you like this? Right? they’re not like these heavy questions. It’s just these little check-ins to make sure that moving forward makes sense. And I think modeling that is not something I’ve seen very much. If we can model that and have everybody take that into consideration in life, it’s just gonna be better for people. [00:05:23] Rowan: I think a lot when we talk about consent of that picture from the end of World War ii, and we all know this picture where there is a soldier who’s leaning a woman over and kissing her, and a lot of stories were created around that photo. But my understanding, and I’ve yet to fact check this, so take this with a grain of salt, but my understanding is that they did not know each other. That he basically just grabbed her and kissed her, and a photo was taken and this became iconic. And for women especially, and those of us like me, a trans man who were socialized. As girls and women as we were growing up, this was sort of expected that if a man liked you, he would eventually just lean over and kiss you and touch you and yeah. It was your responsibility to tell him no. He would keep going. Until you tell him no. And you had to be very clear about that no. And I first of all, love this new model of asking people if they would like to be kissed. I really don’t like. When older people, and I say older people like me, I really don’t like when older people go, that’s not sexy. It can’t possibly be sexy. And so I applaud Heated Rivalry for having these very erotic, very sexy scenes where consent is a part of it because you are brought right into that scene. It is hot, it is heavy, and consent just in some way just makes it even hotter like It is fantastic how it’s done. I also like that it’s between two men. I like That consent is practiced between two men because a lot of times when we see stories about consent, whether it is asked for and received or not, it is. Around a straight couple. It’ll be a man and a woman, and the man is asking for consent or should be asking for consent, or the woman is pushing him away because he did not have consent. And so this was very cool to see this modeled. I really hope that it changes the conversation around it. [00:07:51] Lara: Yeah. And in the second sexual scene, there is a section where, again, Ilya asks for something Shane isn’t comfortable. Basically says, not this time, and the response is, okay, next time. Right? So it was a very good demonstration of asking. Getting an answer and accepting the answer and moving on. And again, that’s what we need to model. It’s okay to say no. That doesn’t mean everything is terrible, and now the moment is lost. It just means maybe whatever that thing was, we’re not gonna do it today. And I’m okay with that. [00:08:29] Rowan: Yeah, we’re not gonna do it today. Maybe we’re not gonna do whatever. Everybody likes different things. [00:08:33] Lara: [00:08:34] Rowan: It is such a. I wanna use the term wholesome because I think in that moment, even though these, again, these are sex scenes and they’re pretty graphic sex scenes. even in those moments, , there’s this pureness, this real sweetness around consent. Like, it’s like, I’m really into you. I really want you, but I really wanna check in and make sure you’re okay with it. And I don’t know, it just made me really happy as someone who grew up, in the eighties and the nineties, where this was just not a thing. we’re really seeing it now. I mean, obviously we knew things like rape were a thing. we absolutely knew that was wrong, although there were some blurred lines around that too. [00:09:17] Lara: Yeah. [00:09:17] Rowan: but. Seeing that, I don’t know. I just think the youth are okay. The youth are gonna be okay. Gives me a lot of hope for the future. [00:09:26] Lara: Yeah, and I think that something I did with my kids that I think I’m hoping will change some of the conversation and I remember, some of the feedback about something as small as this, which I’ll tell you what it is in a minute, was like, it’s not such a big deal. Why are you making it a big deal? But I think again, it’s. Knowing that you don’t have to accept something that doesn’t feel good to you. So for me, tickling was a big thing, right? So when I was little, there was the whole, somebody would tickle you till you were basically begging for mercy and hoped that begging for mercy would mean that they stopped. [00:10:00] Rowan: Yeah. [00:10:01] Lara: Which. Probably it would, but also maybe it wouldn’t because it was really funny to them. And so,ha ha ha. But to me, and I always said this to my kids. If you don’t want something, say, I do not consent. , You know, I’ve heard kids roughhousing in my house and been like, say I do not consent. And then,I’m just like reinforcing it all the time. I do not consent and, I’ll come in and back you up to the end of the world if you say, I do not want that. We’re done. There’s no ifs, ands, or, but even if you’re playing, even if you’re joking, even if whatever, if they say, I do not want that

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About

Lara Wellman and Rowan Jetté Knox are here to unpack all the topics that have us feeling confused, that keep us feeling small or stuck in shame, and that stop us from thriving as our authentic selves. unboxingit.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    Lara Wellman
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    49
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Lara Wellman and Rowan Jetté Knox
  • Show Website
    Unboxing It with Lara and Rowan