Legal Off the Leash

Legal off The Leash

Hi, and welcome to Legal off the Leash, with your hosts, Elizabeth de Stadler and Scott Simmons. Why are we doing this podcast? We want to help create a legal profession filled with successful and happy lawyers. Because we know lawyers are unhappy. And while most firms care about unhappy lawyers who leave, they should be just as worried about the ones who are staying. Presenteeism, or what some people call quiet quitting, costs the global economy about 9% of Global GDP. That is USD8.8 trillion. If the global legal market is USD797 billion, that means lawyers are pissing away [Elizabeth, where’s the calculator!]... ahem, a lot of money. Lawyers are bombarded with information about how to make themselves, their firms and their lives better. At the best of times it is just too earnest, at worst it is bewildering. In Legal Off The Leash we cut through the crap and talk honestly with a vast array of people who are cleverer than us about law, life, laughter and line dancing. We don’t talk about line dancing, but we do talk far too much about Harry Potter. This podcast is about Elizabeth and Scott tearing each other new ***holes and interviewing guests about how to make firms and lawyers better and happier. It is a must-listen for any lawyer who isn’t a malignant narcissist. Actually they’re welcome too.

  1. Episode 14: How to KISS

    1D AGO

    Episode 14: How to KISS

    Welcome to Legal Off The Leash, the podcast where we take the legal profession out of the box and into a happier, more fulfilling future! In this episode, Scott and Elizabeth are joined by plain language expert Colleen Trolove and information designer Liezl van Zyl for a lively, honest conversation about legalese: why it persists, why it frustrates clients, and what it’s really costing the profession. From hostage negotiation to jazz singing, they explore empathy, identity, hierarchy, AI, and the uncomfortable truth: if your client doesn’t understand you, you haven’t communicated. This is a practical and philosophical deep-dive into what clearer legal writing could unlock. 🔑 Key Themes Legalese as Identity: Why lawyers cling to complex language as a badge of expertise. Precision Myth: The flawed belief that legal language is inherently more accurate. Empathy as Strategy: Understanding your reader as the foundation of good drafting. Hierarchy & Habit: How firm culture and precedent entrench poor writing. Litigation Mindset: Why drafting for the worst-case scenario damages relationships. AI & Plain Language: How technology could accelerate—or undermine—clearer communication. 💬 Memorable Quotes “Make sure your reader understand who is doing what to whom.” — Liezl van Zyl “If they don't understand it, you haven't communicated it successfully.” — Colleen Trolove “The most common myth about communication is that it has actually taken place.” — Liezl van Zyl “Legalese is heredatory.” — Elizabeth de Stadler “People have a right to understand the documents they need to actively participate in their own lives.” — Liezl van Zyl 📌 Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways If your client has to ask another lawyer to interpret your advice, you haven’t done your job. Plain language is not about “dumbing down”—it’s about accuracy, structure, and empathy. Legal language often survives because of hierarchy and fear, not because it’s better. Drafting for litigation rather than for relationship-building increases risk rather than reducing it. Start small: replace archaic phrases, use active voice, clarify who is responsible for what. User testing works in law too—observe how real people interact with your documents. AI can help clarify language, but only if you know what you’re trying to say first. Access to justice is fundamentally a communication issue. This episode is a reminder that clarity isn’t cosmetic. It’s ethical. And perhaps the simplest way to take the legal profession off the leash. Connect with the Guests Colleen Trolove 🔗 https://www.colleentrolove.co.nz/ 💬 LinkedIn   Liezl van Zyl 🔗 heyplainjane.com 💬 LinkedIn Resources for you to enjoy https://www.colleentrolove.co.nz/plain-language-resource-library

    45 min
  2. Episode 13: An Ode To Finding Joy with Bridget McNulty

    FEB 3

    Episode 13: An Ode To Finding Joy with Bridget McNulty

    Welcome to Legal Off The Leash, the podcast where we take the legal profession out of the box and into a happier, more fulfilling future! In this beautifully tender and surprisingly funny episode, Elizabeth and Scott sit down with writer and diabetes advocate Bridget McNulty, author of Daily Glimmers. Bridget unpacks the transformative practice of noticing “tiny joys” and how this simple act became a lifeline through profound grief. From the neuroscience of micro-joys to the brutal honesty of living (and working) while heartbroken, Bridget shows why every lawyer needs glimmers: not as toxic positivity, but as a grounded, evidence-backed mental health tool for surviving modern life. 🔑 Key Themes Glimmers vs. Happiness: Why micro-moments of joy matter more than chasing big highs. Grief & Joy Intertwined: How profound loss reshapes attention, perspective and emotional capacity. Nervous System Science: What glimmers do physiologically and why lawyers need this reset. Attention as a Daily Choice: How news, screens and overstimulation steal our inner quiet. Humanity at Work: Why breaks, nature, silliness and softness make us better professionals. 💬 Memorable Quotes “It was so all consuming. It was like a fire that blazed through my life and it just burned everything to the ground.” “Even in those awful days… there were still these tiny little moments… the only chinks of light that I could find.” “Joy comes from inside. Happiness is dependent on outside factors.” “Glimmers calm your nervous system… even if it’s only for a couple of seconds.” “We’ve stepped away from being human to such an extent that we do need to remind ourselves.” “Everyone deserves a life that’s full of the beautiful ordinary.”   📌 Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways Grief destroys your emotional scaffolding, but micro-joys rebuild it. Glimmers act as tiny anchors when everything else feels unrecognisable. Joy is internal, gentle, and sustainable. It stabilises the nervous system in ways happiness can’t. Attention is the real battleground. Without intentional practices, the modern world defaults us into stress, reactivity and emotional depletion. Glimmers aren’t a project; they’re a lens. They don’t add to your to-do list, they shift how you see what’s already there. Lawyers need humanity breaks. High-pressure cultures, billable hours and perfectionism numb us to the very moments that support wellbeing and resilience. Meaningful careers require meandering. The linear “achievement timeline” is a myth; fulfilment comes from permission to explore.   You can find Bridget on Linkedin and Instagram.   And you can buy 'Daily Glimmers: The Art of Finding Tiny Joys Every Day of the Year' here.

    50 min
  3. Episode 12: We still don't know what we're doing!

    JAN 20

    Episode 12: We still don't know what we're doing!

    Welcome to Legal Off The Leash, the podcast where we take the legal profession out of the box and into a happier, more fulfilling future! In episode 12, we’re back—candid, chaotic, and deeply human. After a short break, they reflect on Christmas, the realities of therapy and mental health, and why empathy matters more than ever in law. What begins as a light-hearted catch-up turns into a powerful conversation about catastrophising, client behaviour in the age of AI, and how lawyers can learn from medical professionals when it comes to trust, reassurance, and communication. This episode sets the tone for 2026—and for a profession ready for a do-over. 🔑 Key Themes Returning with intention: pauses, rest, and reflection matter Catastrophising vs clarity—what lawyers can learn from healthcare professionals Therapy, self-awareness, and emotional intelligence as professional skills Clients, AI, and the danger of judgment instead of empathy The shift from “hard skills” to human skills in the age of automation Letting go of rigid goals and holding ambition lightly 💬 Memorable Quotes “Everybody should get therapy. And it's not because you think something's wrong or because there's something wrong. It's for anybody.” — Scott “You don't cure depression, depression cures you.” — Elizabeth “When you catastrophise, you lose like, I think it was 20 IQ points.” — Elizabeth “You can sit there and be frustrated about the fact that people are going online, or you can understand and accept that this is the world we're living in.” — Scott “Hold your goals lightly.” — Elizabeth 📌 Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways Empathy beats expertise alone: Clients who arrive with Google, AI, or half-formed conclusions aren’t being difficult—they’re anxious. Meeting that anxiety with empathy builds trust faster than dismissing clients as diffilcult. Therapy builds better professionals: Self-awareness improves communication, leadership, and resilience—not just personal wellbeing. AI doesn’t remove the human role: Clients often ask the wrong questions. The lawyer’s value lies in diagnosis, framing, and reassurance. Human skills are the differentiator: As technical tasks become automated, connection, confidence, and clarity become core professional assets. Goals are fine, attachment isn’t: Focus on process, not perfection. Growth comes from consistency and kindness, not self-judgment.

    31 min
  4. 10/28/2025

    Episode 11: A Journey Through our First 10 Episodes

    Welcome to Episode 11 of Legal Off The Leash with your hosts Scott Simmons and Elizabeth De Stadler as they take a nostalgic journey through the first 10 episodes of Legal Off the Leash. From funny anecdotes about getting started to deep dives into the challenges of the legal profession, this episode offers a candid reflection on their podcasting journey. Discover the recurring themes, memorable guest insights, and the evolution of their dynamic (and sometimes strange) partnership. Whether you've been listening since episode 1 or new to the show, this retrospective is filled with laughter, learning, and a look at what's next for the podcast. Tune in for a blend of humour, honesty, and heartfelt moments that define Legal Off the Leash. Key Themes A candid look back: how the show started, what surprised Scott & Elizabeth, and how it’s evolving. Billable hour obsession: why it keeps showing up in every episode and why it matters. Editing chaos: pauses, dropped audio, accidental comedy, and finding a rhythm. Authenticity and “power skills”: essential for sustainable legal careers. Overwork ≠ excellence: cultural myths that harm learning and wellbeing. The profession’s problem with “yes culture”: How it shapes behaviours and careers. Legal design uncovered: a structured problem-solving process, not just visuals. Psychological safety takes centre stage: real research on lawyers and burnout. A hopeful future: more joy, better habits, and braver conversations ahead.   Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways  Repetition drives change: key issues need to be challenged often. Don’t glorify exhaustion: clients pay for outcomes and guidance, not fatigue. Protect mentoring: juniors need time to learn, not just to bill. Pause before “yes”: sustainable careers require boundaries. Try pricing the value: unlock better service quality and sanity. Legal design = process: use it widely, not just in contracting. Safety unlocks performance: psychological security fuels retention and innovation. Great communication is crafted: editing improves everything - including podcasts. Connect with your hosts Scott Simmons Elizabeth De Stadler

    52 min
  5. Episode 10: Breaking the Cycle: Psychological Safety in Law

    10/14/2025

    Episode 10: Breaking the Cycle: Psychological Safety in Law

    Welcome to Legal Off The Leash, the podcast where we take the legal profession out of the box and into a happier, more fulfilling future! In this episode, hosts Elizabeth de Stadler and Scott Simmons sit down with Dr Emma Clarke, an organisational psychologist based in Amsterdam whose PhD research uncovered the structural and cultural forces driving burnout and turnover in law firms. Emma explains her three-factor model of psychological safety — barriers and blind spots, leadership behaviours, and access to resources — and shares how hierarchy, billable hours and gendered time use reinforce an unsafe culture. She also talks about her AI-powered platform to detect early warning signs of workplace risk before they lead to harm. Key Themes  Psychological Safety Defined: Why it’s the foundation for culture, performance and well-being. Structural Challenges: Hierarchy, billable hours, and gender differences compound stress. The Three-Factor Model: Barriers & blind spots, leader behaviours, and access to resources. Role Modelling Matters: Leaders’ behaviours cascade down, shaping what juniors see as “normal.” Tokenistic Wellbeing: Why individual-focused initiatives fail without systemic change. A Preventative Platform: Using AI and psychology to surface risks before they harm people.   Memorable Quotes  “Psychological safety is a belief or a perception that people have about their environment.” — Emma Clarke “Psychological safety is foundational. It's the foundation to culture. It's a foundation to performance. It's a foundation to well-being, engagement, retention, all of those great things.” — Emma Clarke “There’s three critical factors… barriers and blind spots, the leader behaviours and the resources. These are the three critical factors that are important to build psychological safety.” — Emma Clarke “Leaders think the reason people are leaving is X. When you talk to employees they say Y.” — Emma Clarke “A number of times I heard in my research about leaders just going mental because something had happened… Everybody’s observing this and seeing that this is what happens if we make a mistake.” — Emma Clarke “In my last performance review… you could have been good this year, but because of your health we can’t give you a good score because you didn’t do enough hours.” — Research participant quoted by Scott Simmons “Law firms have to be really brave… if they want to retain talent, improve well-being and reduce burnout.” — Emma Clarke “The hierarchy, this formal hierarchical structure creates a really unsafe environment for people.” — Emma Clarke “This is not a hostage situation.” — Elizabeth de Stadlerish Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways  Audit your blind spots: Leaders often misdiagnose why people leave because staff don’t feel safe to tell the truth. Reward behaviours, not just billables: Promotion criteria should include emotional intelligence, fairness and empathy. Make wellbeing collective, not individual: Stop framing burnout as a personal failure — address the system. Plan long-term: Law firms must look beyond each financial year to invest in future talent and sustainable culture. Challenge definitions of success: The “big law or bust” mindset traps lawyers in unhealthy environments. Leverage transferable skills: Law degrees equip graduates for many careers — it’s not a hostage situation. Connect with Emma Clarke LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmaclarke/ Headspace Consulting: headspaceconsulting.co To take part in the pilot programme, contact Emma at https://helderinsight.com/.

    53 min
  6. Episode 9: WTF is Legal Design

    09/30/2025

    Episode 9: WTF is Legal Design

    Welcome to Legal Off The Leash, the podcast where we take the legal profession out of the box and into a happier, more fulfilling future! In this episode, Scott Simmons and Elizabeth de Stadler dive into the world of legal design — what it really means, why it matters, and how it transforms the client experience. Forget about “slapping some icons on a contract” or “making things pretty.” As Elizabeth explains, legal design is about functionality, empathy, and solving real problems for clients. From the importance of onboarding and websites to the plain language revolution in contracts, this conversation cuts through misconceptions and shows how design thinking can reshape legal services for the 21st century. And yes, there’s even talk of “fast caterpillars” and how bad templates fuel bad AI. Key Themes What Legal Design Really Is: Not decoration — but applying design thinking to law with empathy at its core. Beyond Contracts: Why websites, onboarding, and the entire client journey matter just as much as documents. Plain Language, Real Change: Contracts should preserve relationships, not fuel litigation. The Template Trap: Copy-paste culture has killed critical thinking in law. AI’s Fast Caterpillars: Without transformation, AI just makes bad contracts faster. Human-Centric Law: Practising this way isn’t just better for clients — it makes lawyers happier too. Memorable Quotes “Most people we talk to think that it's a matter of slapping some icons on a document. Or we get a lot of people say, well, you're going to make it pretty, aren't you? And I go, no, we're going to make it functional.” — Elizabeth de Stadler “Transformation is like turning a caterpillar into a butterfly, but if you make changes without the transformation bit, all you get is fast caterpillars.” — Elizabeth de Stadler “Clients are not coming to lawyers to buy their attention in six minute increments. They're coming to lawyers for outcomes and solution and support.” — Elizabeth de Stadler “A contract should be about, not about dispute resolution, but about dispute elimination.” — Elizabeth de Stadler “Good contracts don't get litigated.” — Elizabeth de Stadler “Practicing human centric law is more gratifying and contributes more to your wellness than the old way.” — Elizabeth de Stadler Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways Start with empathy: Map out your users’ needs, frustrations, and expectations before designing processes or documents. Fix the basics: Websites, onboarding, and client communication set the tone long before contracts come into play. Plain language = trust: Contracts should clearly define roles and responsibilities to eliminate disputes, not feed them. Kill the boilerplate habit: Stop clinging to irrelevant or outdated clauses “because they’ve always been there.” AI isn’t magic: If your templates are poor, AI just reproduces poor work faster. Clean up before automating. Lawyer wellbeing matters: Human-centric design improves not only client trust but also lawyers’ mental health and job satisfaction.

    35 min
  7. Episode 8: Breaking Up with the Billable Hour

    09/16/2025

    Episode 8: Breaking Up with the Billable Hour

    The latest episode of Legal Off The Leash is out. And this time, we are giving the billable hour the ol' heave-ho!   In episode 8, we’re talking to Elani Maas—practice manager of Bromfield Family Law and co-director of Recalibrate, a value pricing consultancy helping law firms make the move away from the billable hour. Known as a value pricing whisperer and law firm transformer, Elani has dedicated her career to helping law firms ditch the billable hour and embrace a model that works better for clients, lawyers, and businesses.   From her early days managing accounts to spearheading full-scale value pricing transformations, Elani has seen first-hand the cultural, financial, and human costs of billing by the hour. She shares how value pricing flips client relationships on their head, why lawyers resist change, and why a future beyond the billable hour isn’t just possible—it’s already here.     Key Themes In This Episode   The Core Problem: Why every frustration in law traces back to the billable hour. Clients Want Certainty: Most clients expect fixed pricing everywhere else—why should law be different? Litigation Isn’t an Excuse: Value pricing works in family and civil litigation just as well as commercial law. Changing Culture: From silos and six-minute units to collaboration, trust, and real outcomes. Mental Health Matters: How value pricing supports healthier, more fulfilling careers for lawyers.     Memorable Quotes   “Clients aren't coming to lawyers to buy their attention in six minute increments. They're coming to lawyers for outcomes and solutions and support.” “We think value pricing is somehow revolutionary in the legal profession, but to the consumer, it’s just the norm.”   “That's exactly how I would expect to engage with a professional: I want to know the price upfront; and, if you can give me some different options, even better. I certainly would not be engaging anybody on an hourly rate.” “I absolutely do believe value pricing is better for lawyers. Abolishing the six minute increment allows space for people to redesign what their firm actually looks like.”   “90% of the complaints made to the Australian governing body are about fees and it's because clients don't know how much it is until the end.” “I want upfront fixed pricing to become the norm in the legal profession.”     Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways   Project management beats time recording: Value pricing scopes work in stages, making it flexible, transparent, and client-focused. Resistance is about unlearning: Lawyers’ risk-aversion and habit-forming culture slow adoption, but new generations are more open. Client relationships improve instantly: Fixed fees eliminate awkward billing conversations, replacing them with trust and clarity. Wellbeing shift: Without timesheets as the default measure of performance, firms can celebrate broader contributions and reduce burnout. Change is being led by small law: Agile firms are proving the model works, while larger firms lag behind.   With artificial intelligence primed to cut lawyer workloads by around 50%, pricing on time has no future, so this is an episode you can't afford to ignore.   You can connect with Elani and learn more about Recalibrate Legal Operations here: https://recalibratelegalops.com.au/

    46 min
  8. Episode 7: The PEP Trap - A Dangerous Obsession

    09/02/2025

    Episode 7: The PEP Trap - A Dangerous Obsession

    Former Baker McKenzie partner and ex–Barclays MD of Litigation, Investigations & Enforcement, Jonathan Peddie, joins Scott and Elizabeth to unpack his article, The PEP Trap—The Evolving Law Firm Time Bomb, critiquing the legal industry’s obsession with Profits Per Equity Partner (PEP), why it distorts behaviour, and how better investment in people, strategy, and non-legal functions builds healthier, more sustainable firms and client relationships. Key Themes PEP isn’t the whole picture: It’s a narrow, short-term metric that can hide weakening demand, under-investment, and strategic drift. Invest beyond the fee-earners: Firms thrive when HR, Finance, Compliance, BD, Marketing, and Operations are resourced and respected—not treated as expendable “cost centres.” People > billable hours: Coaching, feedback, and development time compound into quality, loyalty, and profitability—even if they reduce short-term billables. Strategy vs. execution: Year-to-year profit distributions bias firms toward last year’s revenue sources and away from long-horizon investments. Measure what matters: Track demand, revenue quality, matter mix, and relationship depth—not just PEP—over 3–10 year horizons. Memorable Quotes    “It's a very short term method of comparing one law firm with another. And PEP is used by lawyers deciding where to go next, but it's also much more heavily used by law firms to advertise how successful they are against each other for recruitment and publicity purposes.”   “In a law firm the partners and the associates are, they think, the business. My point is no, the whole business is the business, of which the lawyers are the lawyers, And yes, of course, producers are critical. They are the makers of units of cost to time that are sold to clients. But the marketing of them, the management of them, the employee relations, HR, the finance, the doing of all of the things that are not legal services are critical to optimising them.”   “Law firms should be open to the idea that lawyers should sacrifice time that they might be spending fee earning to optimise their business. But they won't do it. They'll do it because they have to, not because they want to. And that's a fundamental problem with the law firm model because the expectation of hours is such that it is really dangerous to spend your time developing others.”   “How do I make you better at what you do? And what do you get wrong? And how can we develop you? And how can we optimise you? And if you do that, the net effect is that all of you, if you're running a law firm, all of those people will be much higher productivity and much more lean and efficient and effective and much more attractive to the client, the profits will look after themselves.” Important Insights & Actionable Takeaways  Red-team your metrics: Keep PEP on the dashboard, but never alone. Pair it with demand trendlines, average matter value, matter count, and % of work that appears on clients’ board risk reports. Fund the “control environment”: Apply to your firm the same governance standards you advise clients on—strengthen Compliance, Risk, Audit, HR, Finance, BD/Marketing. Institutionalise development: Protect recurring 1:1s, coaching, feedback, and skills training as part of partner KPIs; treat non-billable development time as an investment line, not leakage. Succession = access to “gold” work: Maintain senior, board-level relationships and mentor successors early to preserve trust for bet-the-company matters. Stop annual myopia: Ring-fence budget for 3–10 year priorities (tech platforms, data, client experience, leadership pipelines) so execution doesn’t drown strategy. Re-balance partner economics: Don’t hollow out equity so far that you lose senior relationship capital; align remuneration with quality, collaboration, and client outcomes, not just hours and origination. Career design for juniors: Seek variety early, demand feedback, and learn across environments (private practice ↔ in-house) to build judgment and client empathy.   You can read The PEP Trap—The Evolving Law Firm Time Bomb here: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jonathan-peddie-2b4b4215_the-pep-trap-activity-7361048250935566336-5ntT?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAawwUkBitHoNUDvWsruZI0-G2BsPQ6Hs80 You can contact Jonathan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathan-peddie-2b4b4215/

    57 min

About

Hi, and welcome to Legal off the Leash, with your hosts, Elizabeth de Stadler and Scott Simmons. Why are we doing this podcast? We want to help create a legal profession filled with successful and happy lawyers. Because we know lawyers are unhappy. And while most firms care about unhappy lawyers who leave, they should be just as worried about the ones who are staying. Presenteeism, or what some people call quiet quitting, costs the global economy about 9% of Global GDP. That is USD8.8 trillion. If the global legal market is USD797 billion, that means lawyers are pissing away [Elizabeth, where’s the calculator!]... ahem, a lot of money. Lawyers are bombarded with information about how to make themselves, their firms and their lives better. At the best of times it is just too earnest, at worst it is bewildering. In Legal Off The Leash we cut through the crap and talk honestly with a vast array of people who are cleverer than us about law, life, laughter and line dancing. We don’t talk about line dancing, but we do talk far too much about Harry Potter. This podcast is about Elizabeth and Scott tearing each other new ***holes and interviewing guests about how to make firms and lawyers better and happier. It is a must-listen for any lawyer who isn’t a malignant narcissist. Actually they’re welcome too.