Four Fs Podcast: World class experts you won’t find anywhere else.

Jeff Cluff

World class experts you won’t find anywhere else. What are the Four Fs? I have four fs in my name. So, when you have no more Fs to give, let me know. I can probably loan you one of mine. This podcast? Expect real conversations with world class experts and real people you won’t find anywhere else. New episodes every week. Every episode is an authentic conversation with hard-earned lessons & honest stories from founders, leaders, experts, and industry executives that you won't find anywhere else. Real people who faced challenges - like the ones you are facing - and found a way to keep moving forward.

  1. We are all going to die anyway. NDEs, Survival School, Secret Missions & Facing Death. With Don Winner

    11H AGO

    We are all going to die anyway. NDEs, Survival School, Secret Missions & Facing Death. With Don Winner

    Don Winner is a former Military Intelligence Officer, Investigative Journalist for 48 Hours, Dateline, Nightline, Discovery Channel, the BBC and more. He's solved countless murders, studied thousands of NDEs (Near Death Experiences) and is on the Four Fs podcast to tell you the full story. To get you started, a little background: At 18 years old, Don Winner left small-town New York and stepped into the United States Air Force. What followed was a 20-year career in signals intelligence during the Cold War — flying reconnaissance missions, preparing for POW capture, training for survival behind enemy lines, and operating in high-risk environments where mistakes could be fatal. This episode dives deep into the moments where survival wasn’t theoretical. From military survival school — where airmen train for capture, interrogation, and escape — to classified reconnaissance missions over volatile regions, Don shares what it’s like to prepare for death… and continue the mission anyway. We talk about: What survival school actually teaches (and why it changes you) POW resistance training and psychological pressure Flying combat-coded missions in Central America Standing on the runway during the capture of Manuel Noriega Holding a TS/SCI clearance and living inside high-stakes intelligence The mental framework required when decisions carry life-or-death consequences How facing mortality reshapes discipline, clarity, and fear This conversation isn’t about heroics — it’s about preparation, structure, and how ordinary people operate in extraordinary danger. If you’ve ever wondered what it feels like to train for captivity… to fly missions that could go wrong… or to live in the shadow of global conflict — this episode delivers. Tags: NDE, NDEs, near death experience, military survival school, POW training, Air Force reconnaissance, Cold War missions, Central America 1980s, Manuel Noriega capture, combat survival training, TS SCI clearance, NSA intelligence analyst, signals intelligence, C130 missions, life and death decisions, military mindset, facing mortality, psychological resilience, escape and evasion training, high risk operations, discipline under pressure, intelligence community, war stories podcast, survival mindset, leadership under stress

    2h 29m
  2. Scaling Human Knowledge: AI, Systems Theory, and the Future of Learning with Alverita AI CEO Laudon Williams

    6D AGO

    Scaling Human Knowledge: AI, Systems Theory, and the Future of Learning with Alverita AI CEO Laudon Williams

    Stop chasing the "next big thing" and start mastering the systems that actually run the world. Join us as tech veteran Laudon Williams reveals how to measure organizational complexity and scale human expertise using AI. In this episode, host Jeff Cluff sits down with Laudon Williams, a visionary technologist whose career spans from Army Intelligence in Korea to building mission-critical systems at Microsoft and RSA. Laudon shares his unique journey, emphasizing the roles of discipline, systems theory, and "morning triage" in driving peak performance. We dive deep into his latest venture, Alverita AI, a platform designed to scale human knowledge without the pitfalls of AI hallucinations or generated filler. Whether you're an engineering leader dealing with "tool sprawl" or a creator looking to clone your expertise, this conversation offers a masterclass in navigating the complexities of modern tech. Key Topics Covered: The discipline of creativity and the myth of the "muse." Lessons from Army Intelligence and international roles in 64 countries. The history of Kerberos and building 5.9 mission-critical systems. The dangers of "desire paths" and organizational fragmentation. Alverita AI: Structuring knowledge and scaling expertise through voice and avatars. Measuring and predicting systems complexity for better governance. Chapter Timestamps 00:00 - Introduction and Laudon’s Alabama Roots 02:51 - Lessons from Army Intelligence and Korean Linguistics 08:00 - Cultural Awareness: Traveling to 64 Countries and Worldview Shifts 09:45 - The Trap of Consumer Culture and Never-Ending Growth 13:11 - The Discipline of Creativity and "Morning Triage" 19:53 - Sleep Optimization and the Data-Driven Life 24:12 - Why I Quit Social Media (Except LinkedIn) 35:00 - The Early Days of CyberSafe and Kerberos 42:03 - AI vs. the Dot-Com Boom: A Different Kind of Disruption 56:02 - Human Capital and Removing System Inefficiencies 1:10:27 - Scaling Global Events: Dancing with the Stars and ESPN Fantasy 1:20:32 - Career Regrets and the Importance of Professional Relationships 1:43:52 - The Problem with Hyperscalers and Economic Interests 1:49:00 - Introducing Alverita AI: Scaling Knowledge Without Hallucinations 1:53:49 - How Alverita AI Identifies Content Gaps 2:08:02 - Systems Theory and the Danger of "Desire Paths" 2:13:48 - Tool Sprawl and Fragmentation in Organizations 2:15:33 - Measuring, Modeling, and Predicting Complexity 2:25:00 - Public-Private Partnerships and the Future of Research If you like, The Tim Ferriss Show, The Diary of a CEO, The Knowledge Project(Shane Parrish), Deep Questions (Can Newport), Hidden Brain, The Daily Stoic, Lex Fridman Podcast, or Modern Wisdom you'll love this episode. Tags: AI, Artificial Intelligence, Alverita AI, Laudon Williams, Systems Theory, Organizational Complexity, Technical Debt, Microsoft, Kerberos, Cybersecurity, Scale Knowledge, Professional Development, Machine Learning, Tool Sprawl, Systems Engineering, stillness, discipline, creativity, AI, attention, productivity, deep work, morning routine, military leadership, global perspective, intentional living, dopamine detox, focus, tech leadership, personal growth, mindfulness, distraction, social media, worldview, travel, culture, habits, self‑improvement, podcast interview

    2h 33m
  3. Bev McCoy: From Mammoth Mountain to Montana Rancher

    FEB 13

    Bev McCoy: From Mammoth Mountain to Montana Rancher

    What does it take to walk away from security, status, and legacy — and start over again and again? In this bonus episode of the Four Fs Podcast, Bev McCoy shares her extraordinary journey from working in corporate law in Los Angeles to becoming a ski instructor at Mammoth Mountain — where she met and married Olympic downhill skier Dennis “Pancho” McCoy, son of Mammoth founder Dave McCoy. Together, they made a bold decision: walk away from the mountain and build a cattle ranch from scratch in Dillon, Montana. What followed was 30+ years of ranching, raising cattle, diversifying into fly fishing, duck hunting, and land stewardship — and learning hard lessons about commodity markets, immigration labor, resilience, and reinvention. Bev reflects on: Teaching skiing during Mammoth’s golden era (with celebrities like Paul Newman and Wilt Chamberlain) Building a home from a log cabin kit with no roadmap Creating a private fly-fishing paradise from spring creeks The economics of ranching and diversification Marriage, partnership, and shared risk Reinventing life in your 30s… and again in your 60s This is a story about courage, grit, stewardship, and the confidence to say, “Why not?” ⏱ Chapter Timestamps 00:00 – From Pittsburgh to California 04:30 – Leaving Corporate Law for Ski Life 09:15 – Teaching at Mammoth’s Golden Era 14:40 – Meeting Pancho McCoy 20:10 – Olympic Skiing & the McCoy Legacy 26:30 – Walking Away from Mammoth 31:45 – Building a Montana Ranch from Scratch 39:20 – Commodity Markets & Ranch Economics 45:15 – Creating a Fly-Fishing Destination 52:10 – Diversification: Ducks, Deer & Sustainability 58:40 – Selling the Ranch & A Surprise Buyer 1:05:30 – Retirement, Bend, Oregon & Final Reflections 1:12:00 – The Courage to Reinvent If you enjoy How I Built This, The Tim Ferriss Show, Founders, or Modern Wisdom, you’ll love this episode — especially if you’re drawn to stories of reinvention, entrepreneurship, legacy, and bold life pivots. Tags: Bev McCoy, Mammoth Mountain, Dennis Pancho McCoy, Dave McCoy, Olympic skiing, ski instructor, Montana ranching, cattle ranch, fly fishing, entrepreneurship, reinvention, second act, rural business, western lifestyle, land stewardship, agriculture business, diversification strategy, immigration labor, leadership lessons, bold decisions, legacy families, Bend Oregon, ski culture, outdoor industry, building from scratch

    1h 15m
  4. From Monastery to Microsoft: A Tech Leader’s Journey from India to Silicon Valley

    FEB 6

    From Monastery to Microsoft: A Tech Leader’s Journey from India to Silicon Valley

    In this episode, Jeff sits down with Aparna Natarajan, a technology leader whose journey spans spiritual education in India, career risk-taking, burnout, meditation, and leadership in big tech. Raised in a spiritually rooted environment and educated at a monastery-based university in India, Aparna shares how early exposure to service, meditation, and global cultures quietly shaped her approach to leadership. From quitting a soul-draining job with no backup plan to navigating burnout, imposter syndrome, and major career pivots, her story is a powerful reminder that growth often comes from discomfort. Now an enterprise tech executive, Aparna opens up about: Leaving the “safe path” to pursue meaning Building resilience through meditation and breathwork Women in tech, mentorship, and confidence Measuring nervous system health (HRV) with mindfulness Why obstacles can be reframed as gifts This conversation bridges spirituality and Silicon Valley, offering a grounded, honest look at how inner work can transform career decisions, leadership style, and long-term fulfillment. If you’re interested in career growth, meditation, burnout recovery, leadership, women in tech, or purpose-driven success, this episode is for you. Chapters: 00:00 – Growing up in India and moving across cultures04:30 – Studying business at a monastery-based university09:00 – Service, spirituality, and early life influences13:20 – Career confidence vs. imposter syndrome17:30 – Mentorship and relationship-driven leadership21:00 – Quitting a job with no backup plan25:40 – Burnout, comparison, and feeling stuck30:50 – Career lessons from the 2008 financial crisis34:45 – Reframing obstacles as gifts38:10 – Meditation, breathwork, and nervous system regulation42:30 – Measuring mindfulness through HRV and data47:20 – Business school, scholarships, and betting on yourself55:10 – From MBA to Microsoft1:01:30 – Sales, consulting, and big-tech leadership1:08:40 – Blockchain vs AI: hype vs reality1:13:50 – Spirituality in modern leadership1:18:30 – Final reflections on purpose and growth Tags: meditation, mindfulness, burnout recovery, career growth, women in tech, leadership development, spirituality, purpose driven career, tech leadership, imposter syndrome, resilience, breathwork, nervous system regulation, HRV, big tech careers, Silicon Valley, Microsoft careers, consulting, career pivots, self discovery, emotional intelligence, personal growth podcast, spirituality and work, inner peace, modern leadership If you like shows that explore personal growth, leadership, spirituality, high-performance careers, and the inner work behind meaningful success such as; Modern Wisdom with Chris Williamson, The Tim Ferriss Show, On Purpose with Jay Shetty, The Knowledge Project, How I Built This, and The Diary of a CEO — you'll love this episode.

    1h 26m
  5. How to Master the Law: AI, Due Diligence, and the Future of Trust with Eric Vogeler

    JAN 29

    How to Master the Law: AI, Due Diligence, and the Future of Trust with Eric Vogeler

    Is the legal profession ready for the AI revolution? In this episode, we sit down with Eric Vogeler, a seasoned attorney and entrepreneur, to pull back the curtain on how high-stakes legal deals actually work. From using ChatGPT for due diligence in multi-million dollar transactions to the "superpower" of issue spotting, Eric shares the insider secrets that every business owner and professional needs to know. We dive deep into: AI & Legal Tech: How tools like large language models are uncovering hidden litigation and changing the way lawyers investigate fraud. The Art of Persuasion: Why the best lawyers are actually storytellers and how to find your "authorial voice" in a world of technical writing. Crypto & Smart Contracts: Eric explains the promise of blockchain technology to "flatten" transactions and potentially eliminate the friction of traditional law. Constitutional Rights: A fascinating look at the 14th Amendment and why due process remains the cornerstone of American justice. Business Partnership Tips: Why 60% of commercial litigation comes down to partnership disputes and how to structure your deals to avoid the "social network" trap. Whether you're interested in legal strategy, entrepreneurship, or the Norwegian traditions that shaped a career, this episode is a masterclass in logic, rhetoric, and modern conflict resolution Chapters 0:00 – Heritage & Norwegian Roots Discover Eric’s family connection to Norway and the traditions that shaped his upbringing in Salt Lake City. 01:19 – Family History & WWII The incredible story of Eric’s grandparents, their separation during the Nazi occupation of Norway, and their eventual reunion. 04:37 – AI in Legal Due DiligenceHow lawyers use AI and ChatGPT to uncover red flags and litigation history in multi-million dollar deals. 05:54 – The Lawyer’s Role in DealsAn inside look at regulatory work, litigation loopholes, and finding the "thread" that can unravel an agreement. 11:28 – Natural Instinct vs. TrainingWas Eric born to be a lawyer? A 5th-grade teacher’s prediction and the formal logic of law school. 18:16 – Norwegian Christmas TraditionsFrom aged lamb (pinnichut) to the "rice cream" almond hunt—traditional holiday customs that endure today. 27:43 – Lessons from Elementary SchoolHow receiving a "C" in the 5th grade taught Eric about the importance of total effort and attention to detail. 30:03 – Parenting & Alexa PranksA humorous look at using smart home tech to convince children who the "best dad" really is. 36:46 – Career Shifts & Family LawThe reality of high-stakes legal work and the intentional transition toward more strategic practice areas. 43:56 – Storytelling & The TruthLawyers as narrators: How to reframe facts to help judges and juries find the "capital T" Truth. 52:49 – Counselor vs. AdvocateThe dual role of an attorney: providing objective risk analysis while fighting zealously in the courtroom. 1:05:59 – Due Process & ConstitutionA deep dive into the 14th Amendment and why the right to be heard is a cornerstone of American law. 1:10:47 – Persuasive Writing & VoiceThe keys to effective communication, the power of two-word sentences, and finding an authentic "authorial voice". 1:48:03 – Crypto & Smart ContractsExploring the promise of blockchain technology to "flatten" transactions and potentially automate legal agreements. 2:10:24 – Conflict & Decision MakingWhy litigating for a living makes you more conflict-avoidant and the value of resolving disputes before they escalate. Tags: lawyer mindset, issue spotting, due diligence, legal career, family traditions, Norwegian Christmas, World War II family story, attorney life, legal humor, parenting stories, cultural identity, personal storytelling, legal insights, pattern recognition, family dynamics, holiday traditions, AI and law, internet never forgets, M&A diligence, childhood lessons, work ethic, podcast interview, Utah stories, World Class Experts You Won't Find Anywhere Else

    2h 23m
  6. Leadership Under Pressure: Armaments Research Company CEO Mike Canty on Military Training, Entrepreneurship & Innovation

    JAN 22

    Leadership Under Pressure: Armaments Research Company CEO Mike Canty on Military Training, Entrepreneurship & Innovation

    Short Description: In this episode, former D1 Basketball Player and West Point Graduate Mike Canty shares his journey from West Point and Army service to becoming the founder of ARC, breaking down how military leadership, discipline, and decision-making translate into entrepreneurship and innovation. Full Description: In this episode, Mike Canty shares an in-depth look at his journey from West Point and Army service to becoming a startup founder building mission-critical defense technology. This is a wide-ranging conversation about leadership under pressure, military decision-making, entrepreneurship, and resilience. Mike reflects on growing up in Massachusetts, competing at a high level in sports, and attending prep school before being recruited to West Point. He walks through the reality of military training, leadership development, and the early moments that test commitment, discipline, and accountability. We explore what it’s really like to lead people in high-stakes environments and how those experiences shape long-term decision making. The conversation moves into Mike’s time in the U.S. Army, including deployment experience, combat leadership, and the operational challenges that ultimately inspired the founding of ARC. Mike explains how gaps in battlefield communication and real-time situational awareness led to the core ideas behind ARC’s technology, and why solving real problems for people on the ground became a driving mission. We also dive deep into the transition from the military to the private sector, including attending Columbia business school, Microsoft, and the leap into entrepreneurship. Mike breaks down the realities of building a defense startup, raising capital in difficult conditions, hiring the right team, and navigating failure, risk, and uncertainty as a founder. This episode covers themes like leadership development, founder mindset, discipline, accountability, mission-driven work, innovation, defense technology, military veterans in business, startup resilience, and high-performance decision making. It’s an honest look at how hard experiences forge leaders — and why clarity of purpose matters more than comfort. Whether you’re interested in entrepreneurship, military leadership, personal growth, defense innovation, or building something meaningful, this conversation offers practical insight and hard-earned perspective. If you like Modern Wisdom with Chris Williamson, Founders Podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, The Diary of a CEO, Lex Fridman Podcast, Jocko Podcast, The Shawn Ryan Show, How I Built This, Mike Drop, Cleared Hot, SOFREP Radio, or Zero Blog Thirty, you’ll love this episode. Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 02:08 Growing Up in Massachusetts 06:25 Sports and Competitive Drive 11:42 Prep School and Recruitment 17:28 Choosing West Point 23:06 First Day and Culture Shock 31:42 Leadership and Attrition 41:28 Transition to the Army 50:37 Combat Experience and Decision Making 58:52 The Problem That Inspired ARC 1:06:38 Military to Business and Microsoft 1:12:08 Starting a Defense Startup 1:20:28 Failure Risk and Founder Mindset 1:28:12 Building Mission Driven Teams 1:35:07 ARC Technology and Real World Impact 1:42:47 Final Leadership Reflections 1:44:28 Closing and Where to Connect Tags: leadership, entrepreneurship, military leadership, West Point, Army mindset, startup founder, business leadership, personal growth, resilience, discipline, decision making, leadership development, innovation, ARC company, veterans in business, mission driven leadership, mindset, high performance, overcoming adversity, founder journey, Columbia Business School Graduates

    1h 11m
  7. From Fighter Pilot to Leadership Coach: Identity, Discipline, and Building a Life That Fits | Lorin Jeppsen

    JAN 15

    From Fighter Pilot to Leadership Coach: Identity, Discipline, and Building a Life That Fits | Lorin Jeppsen

    In this episode, Lorin Jeppsen shares an unfiltered conversation about identity, leadership, discipline, and what it really means to live authentically. From being adopted and growing up in Utah, to flying B-52s in the U.S. Air Force, to transitioning into leadership consulting and personal development work, Lorin reflects on the moments that shaped who he is today. This conversation explores the long road from military structure to self-led growth — including lessons from aviation, special warfare, faith, failure, curiosity, and passion. Lorin opens up about hyper-focus, masculinity, discipline, motorcycles, risk, purpose, and how childhood passions often point directly toward adult fulfillment. Rather than offering surface-level motivation, this episode dives into real experiences: learning through discomfort, choosing responsibility over victimhood, and redefining success outside of titles or expectations. If you’re interested in leadership development, military transition, identity, mindset, personal growth, or building a life aligned with who you actually are — this episode will resonate deeply. Chapters: 00:00 — Introduction & setting the toneAuthenticity, open conversation, and why nothing is off-limits. 02:30 — Leadership, coaching, and current workHow Lorin approaches leadership consulting and personal development. 06:30 — AI, technology, and curiosityUsing tools to build, learn, and simplify creative work. 09:00 — Military roots & long-term relationshipsHow shared experiences shape lifelong connections. 12:45 — Flying, special warfare & disciplineWhat military training teaches about responsibility and performance. 18:00 — Hyper-focus, passion & identityWhy childhood interests often reveal lifelong purpose. 23:00 — Motorcycles, risk & freedomThe balance between passion, danger, and intentional living. 30:15 — Adoption, family & growing up differentIdentity, belonging, and being raised without a victim mindset. 36:00 — Responsibility, mindset & resilienceWhy ownership matters more than labels or excuses. 42:30 — Redefining leadership beyond titlesWhat real leadership looks like in everyday life. 48:00 — Final reflections & life alignmentChoosing growth, curiosity, and intentional direction. If You Like These Podcasts, You’ll Enjoy This Episode The Shawn Ryan Show The Diary of a CEO Lex Fridman Podcast Jocko Podcast The Tim Ferriss Show Tags: leadership, personal development, identity, military transition, air force pilot, b52 bomber, discipline, mindset, masculinity, self leadership, coaching, mental toughness, resilience, adoption stories, purpose driven life, authenticity, growth mindset, life after military, leadership coaching, personal growth podcast

    2h 36m
  8. Somatic Integration & Emotional Regulation Expert Joshua Kahn on Identidy, Trauma, and the Power of Community

    JAN 8

    Somatic Integration & Emotional Regulation Expert Joshua Kahn on Identidy, Trauma, and the Power of Community

    In this deeply honest and wide-ranging conversation, Jeff sits down with Joshua Kahn to explore identity, trauma, purpose, and what it really means to grow when life refuses to follow a straight line. Joshua’s story is shaped by movement — across states, countries, careers, and inner landscapes. Born in Texas, raised on a farm outside Atlanta, and educated through an unconventional mix of experiential learning and global travel, Joshua’s life has been anything but traditional. From spending his freshman year living on a school bus with the Audubon Expedition Institute, to traveling the world on Semester at Sea, to years of nonstop international exploration, his journey is defined by curiosity, discomfort, and deep reflection. At the heart of this episode is a powerful exploration of unprocessed trauma. Joshua shares the story of a life-altering accident at 16, how it was buried for years, and how true healing only became possible when he found himself in a safe, emotionally honest community. This conversation dives into the cost of suppressing pain, the importance of vulnerability, and why growth often shows up in places we least expect. Jeff and Joshua also discuss: Radical community and consensus-based living Near-death experiences and the pressure of “having a purpose” Travel as both seeking and avoidance Fatherhood as a catalyst for change Leaving behind success that no longer aligns Men’s work, emotional leadership, and learning to sit with discomfort This episode is raw, thoughtful, and deeply human. It’s about identity, resilience, emotional maturity, masculinity, healing, and redefining success — not as achievement, but as presence. If you’ve ever felt the tension between who you are and who you think you’re supposed to be, this conversation will resonate. Additional Topics Covered: Healing trauma through emotional honesty Experiential education and alternative learning paths Masculinity, vulnerability, and men’s emotional growth Travel, purpose, and self-discovery Fatherhood and identity shifts Letting go of misaligned success Community, trust, and inner work Contact Joshua: joshua@kahnsultations.com  00:00 – Introduction: Identity, Resilience, and Inner Work 01:25 – Growing Up Between Texas, Atlanta, and Two Worlds 03:30 – Rejecting the Traditional College Path 10:26 – Emotional Honesty, Vulnerability, and Deep Community 13:28 – Growing Up on a Farm and Connection to Nature 19:41 – Trauma, Suppressed Emotion, and the Cost of Not Processing Pain 25:52 – Healing Trauma Through Trust and Shared Experience 33:13 – Near-Death Experiences and the Question of Purpose 36:24 – Travel as Searching, Escaping, and Self-Discovery 41:08 – Seeking vs Avoiding: Learning to Sit With Discomfort 49:37 – Leaving the Program and Wanting a Normal College Life 56:06 – Designing an Unconventional Education and Life Path 59:26 – Semester at Sea and Traveling the World in 100 Days 1:02:48 – Years of Nonstop Travel and Life on the Road 1:05:38 – Settling in Northern California and Entering Agriculture 1:12:34 – Family, Fatherhood, and Moving to New York 1:44:10 – Men’s Work, Emotional Leadership, and Redefining Success If you like, Diary of a CEO you'll love this episode. Tags: trauma healing, emotional healing, men’s mental health, masculinity and vulnerability, emotional intelligence, personal growth podcast, self discovery journey, identity and purpose, healing childhood trauma, near death experience, life purpose, inner work, men’s work, emotional honesty, vulnerability and healing, experiential learning, non traditional education, audubon expedition institute, semester at sea, travel and self discovery, spiritual growth without religion, breaking generational patterns, fatherhood and identity, conscious parenting, redefining success, life transitions, burnout and alignment, sitting with discomfort, resilience and growth, healing through community, personal development podcast deep life stories, meaning and purpose podcast

    2h 14m

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
6 Ratings

About

World class experts you won’t find anywhere else. What are the Four Fs? I have four fs in my name. So, when you have no more Fs to give, let me know. I can probably loan you one of mine. This podcast? Expect real conversations with world class experts and real people you won’t find anywhere else. New episodes every week. Every episode is an authentic conversation with hard-earned lessons & honest stories from founders, leaders, experts, and industry executives that you won't find anywhere else. Real people who faced challenges - like the ones you are facing - and found a way to keep moving forward.