The Freight Show

Vooma
  • 5.0 (1)
  • Management
  • Updated Weekly

The Freight Show brings stories of freight and logistics leaders who’ve shaped the industry. Through in-depth conversations, we explore their journeys, the challenges they’ve overcome, and the insights that have driven their success. Each episode uncovers the lessons, strategies, and wisdom of these freight leaders.

  1. Oct 13

    Ken Adamo (EASE Logistics) on Why You Can't Price Like a Coward

    The Friday before the Fourth of July this year, nobody could find a truck. By Monday there were trucks everywhere and no loads, and spot conversion at EASE Logistics fell by more than half overnight. What Ken Adamo's pricing team did over the following week says a lot about how a modern brokerage finds the market when it moves out from under them. Ken spent seven years at DAT talking about the freight market from the stage before joining EASE, and now he lives with his own predictions every day. In this conversation he explains why API and bot pricing now show you a competitor's move the same morning instead of a month later, why a "no" teaches a pricing model far less than a "yes," and why he'd rather start a lane low and work up than start high and work down. He also gets into how EASE treats conversion, margin, and model accuracy as one triangle, and why, at a lot of brokerages, bots convert three to four times better than human reps. On the market side, Ken breaks down why this cycle is supply-driven rather than demand-driven, what Delilah's Law and the Montgomery decision could mean for small carriers and offshore dispatch, and why he thinks big asset carriers with brokerage arms come out ahead. What you'll learn: How to price your way out of a cliff: what happened to conversion, margin, and model accuracy at EASE the Monday after the Fourth, and how chasing the market down led to seven straight days of spot recordsWhy you start low and work up: loads bunch between $0 and about $2 a mile with a long tail out to $7 or $8, so pricing high first can leave you losing for days before you find the marketWhy a "no" is a weak signal: brokers don't know their cost when they sell, and only a win tells you what the load actually cost to buyThe pricing triangle: how conversion, margin, and model accuracy fit together, and why rate tools get you in the zone but can't land you inside a 3-5% margin businessWhy bots out-convert humans: people are good at avoiding losers and bad at capturing upside, and what that means for algorithmic pricing at scaleHow to keep humans in the loop: an operator's call to take 5% off the model took a Midwest commodity shipper from 1 in 15 wins to 6 in 15, while a pricing test on light loads got burned on reefersWhat Ken didn't see from the DAT side: drop vs. live load, why the ninth load on a lane prices differently than the first, and the one-month sabbatical he wishes he'd takenWhy capacity is measured in hours and miles, not trucks: how an 8-10% shift reshapes rates, and where English proficiency, non-domiciled CDLs, and Delilah's Law fit inWhat Montgomery means for brokers and carriers: the drift toward a 12-month authority standard, conditional ratings, and why scale winsTime-stamped highlights: (00:00) Intro: Ken on talking about the market for seven years, then having to go live it(01:10) Why demand is the more powerful lever in freight: COVID, fracking, and the busy Omicron February(02:06) The Fourth of July cliff: hair on fire the Friday before, trucks everywhere and no loads on Monday(02:51) How freight reaches a broker through the routing guide, explained as a dinner with no reservation(04:15) A fragmented market: data centers, heavy industrial, and flatbed fracking are strong while retail is soft(05:25) Why retail demand is weak: beverage alcohol, lifestyle shifts, $4.50 gas, and locked-in mortgage rates(07:09) The freight calendar, and why Costco's shelves tell you when freight is about to pick up(08:38) Blitz weeks, hurricanes, and weather as bumps on the curve(09:47) Capacity is measured in hours and miles, and what the ELD mandate taught us about an 8-10% shift(10:44) English proficiency, non-domiciled CDLs, and the crackdown on truck driving schools(13:07) Delilah's Law: proficiency testing at issuance and a ban on offshore dispatch(15:34) What the Montgomery decision means for small and new carriers(16:56) EASE's driver standards, and why more brokers are now fishing in their pond(17:51) Conditional ratings and a heyday for carrier vetting companies(19:57) Why big carriers with brokerage arms win: insurance, compliance, and Schneider's orange boxes(22:37) How recent policy pushes the industry toward bigger brokerages(23:50) What Ken got right after leaving DAT: data is king at any broker size(24:54) Waking up with seven to ten of a shipper's 10 daily Fontana to Sparks loads because a competitor saw the market move first(26:00) The one-month sabbatical he wishes he'd taken, drop vs. live load, and the ninth load on a lane(28:17) "Capital B brokerage" and the triangle of conversion, margin, and pricing accuracy(29:16) After the Fourth: conversion down more than 50%, chasing the market, and seven straight days of spot records(30:56) "You can't price like a coward," and why you start low and work up(32:22) Why a "no" signal is so much less rich than a "yes" in a 3-5% margin business(34:17) Model accuracy, DAT's weekly benchmark report, and why an 11 AM same-day pickup isn't a 3 PM one(36:11) The problem of operating too well, and brokers who hand back loads that go against them(37:46) Sales, ops, and pricing as three functions, and managing to gross margin dollars(40:08) Ken's contrarian view: algorithmic pricing and strong relationships can coexist at scale(43:02) Bots vs. humans: why bots convert three to four times better(45:06) Keeping humans in the loop, and the 5% test that took a shipper from 1 in 15 wins to 6 in 15(47:03) Experimentation, and the light-load pricing test that failed on reefers(48:55) What Uber teaches about price, and what $100 more on every load would mean for a brokerage(50:38) Shipments per employee per day, and running EASE with under 200 people(55:20) Can boutique brokers compete? Incumbency in RFPs and brokers built around one shipper(57:00) What Ken is excited about over the next 12 monthsGuest:Ken Adamo, Chief Strategy Officer, EASE Logistics Ken spent seven years at DAT Freight & Analytics, where he talked to brokers about freight market data and pricing from the stage. Before DAT, he worked inside a brokerage doing several hundred million dollars a year. As Chief Strategy Officer at EASE Logistics, he's back on the operating side, working with the company's pricing and operations teams on spot and algorithmic pricing.

    Ken Adamo (EASE Logistics) on Why You Can't Price Like a Coward

  2. Sep 9

    Tom McLeod (McLeod Software) on Building a Trucking Software Company That Lasts 41 Years

    Forty-one years is a long time to run one software company. Tom McLeod started McLeod Software in 1985, five years after deregulation blew open an industry that had been run like a public utility, and he's still at the helm today with 550 employees, no outside investors, and a product line that just went through a complete revamp. In the mid-80s, dozens of small software companies were all trying to build the operations platform for trucking. McLeod rose above the fray by the mid-90s, and Tom has a clear view of why. That view matters right now because he sees the same pattern playing out again. Dozens of AI companies are springing up to serve transportation, the way dozens of software companies did forty years ago, and Tom's read is that the winners will be decided by the same things: focus, picking the right customers, and not promising more than you can deliver and service. In this conversation he walks through the early years selling the first 50 systems himself, the decision to exit the brokerage software market for several years in order to win trucking first, how a group of 30 to 35 customers shaped the PowerBroker rewrite through biweekly sprint demos, and why he views freight brokers as America's secret weapon for an efficient transportation system. He also gets into why every attempt at a vertical technology stack in freight has failed, how McLeod is using AI inside its own development, testing, and support teams, and the one piece of advice he'd give any founder entering the market today. What you'll learn: - Why deregulation created the software industry for trucking: how the end of franchise rights in 1980 turned manual, utility-style carriers into companies with a reason to get efficient - Why brokers are the secret weapon of US freight: how a shipper's top-20 carrier list runs out and a broker's hundreds of carrier relationships fill the gap - The case for focus over reach: why McLeod stepped away from brokerage software for years to win trucking first, then came back with PowerBroker in 2006 - How to run a customer advisory process that actually steers the roadmap: why one customer's input is a trap, and how 30 to 35 companies watching sprint demos every two weeks reshaped the product - Why fragmentation protects incumbents: how dozens of niche markets inside trucking make it hard for new entrants, and how configurability and an API answer that - Why the vertical stack never works in freight: the mid-90s competitor that fell behind on integrations, and how mobile comm providers started bringing McLeod their customers - How AI fits the 40-year arc of trucking software: why eliminating the manual work behind 40 to 50 percent of ops emails is the same job as automating the freight bill - What building without outside capital made possible: the luxury of time, the long view, and the one loan McLeod ever took - Tom's formula for AI vendors entering freight: focus, pick the right customers, don't outkick your coverage, sell a ton, and build great product Time-stamped highlights: - (00:00) Intro: 41 years of McLeod Software - (01:01) Deregulation, turbulence, and why disruption creates opportunity - (01:31) What trucking looked like under regulation: franchise rights to haul freight and the flood of new carriers after 1980 - (02:28) Dozens of software startups in the mid-80s and the parallel to today's AI field - (04:10) Why incumbents ran manual operations: regulated like a utility, entitled to a 15 percent profit - (05:14) Early customers who ran both trucking and brokerage, and the first two TIA lifetime achievement winners - (06:14) Brokers as America's secret weapon and why shippers keep a top-20 list - (07:38) Exiting the brokerage software market for several years to focus on trucking - (08:36) The complete product rewrite and the launch of PowerBroker in 2006 - (10:44) What trucking and brokerage systems share and why separate teams build the operations tools - (13:25) What separated McLeod from the pack: focus, blocking and tackling, and the long-term view - (14:23) Choosing an industry that couldn't be offshored - (14:52) Building a development feedback loop with customers and an advisory council - (15:50) Growing through the late 90s with zero unemployment in the computer field - (16:49) Why you can't let a single customer drive the roadmap - (17:46) 30 to 35 companies watching sprint demos every two weeks during the PowerBroker rewrite - (18:45) How customers flip McLeod's internal development priorities - (20:27) Niche markets inside trucking and why they make it hard for new players to attack - (22:40) Focusing on flatbed, van, and refrigerated while adding configurability for liquid, heavy haul, and bulk - (26:02) The API and how customers build bolt-on solutions - (28:22) Tom's view on AI: the same job as eliminating the typed freight bill and driver paycheck - (29:48) Why 40 to 50 percent of ops emails require manual work - (30:46) Dozens of AI startups and the greenfield of the mid-80s - (32:31) Why vertical technology stacks haven't worked in freight - (33:01) The mid-90s competitor that fell behind on integrations and how mobile comm providers brought McLeod customers - (35:30) The goal to demonstrate how to best use AI in a transportation operations product - (36:58) How McLeod uses AI internally: developers, cybersecurity, testing, and 300 new knowledge base documents - (39:42) Why McLeod never took venture capital, or as it was called then, vulture capital - (41:07) The luxury of time and how it made long-term decisions easier - (41:36) The one time McLeod borrowed money: the product rewrite during the 2001 recession - (43:04) What keeps Tom energized after 41 years and 550 employees - (44:34) From sales to programming, and selling the first 50 systems himself - (46:57) Tom's advice for AI vendors entering freight: focus and pick the right customers - (48:26) Why PE groups are learning the value of sales orgs, and the problem of overestimated TAMs - (49:24) Don't outkick your coverage: why services matter as much as the product - (49:52) Why getting an AI prompt to 70, 80, 90 percent is easy and the rest takes time - (51:32) See you in Nashville at the 2026 McLeod User Conference Guest: Tom McLeod — President, McLeod Software Tom founded McLeod Software in 1985 and has led it for 41 years, growing it from a startup selling its first systems by hand into a 550-person company with a leading transportation management platform for carriers and brokers. He began his career in sales before moving into programming in the early 80s, and sold McLeod's first 50 systems himself. He has never taken outside investment, and today he is leading the company through a full revamp of its product line and the integration of AI across its products and operations.

    Tom McLeod (McLeod Software) on Building a Trucking Software Company That Lasts 41 Years

  3. Sep 4

    Jacob Benbenek (Magna) on Why His Reps Get Paid on Losing Loads and How He's Gone 14 Years Without Fraud

    Every broker on the phone is pitching service. Jacob Benbenek has a harder proof point than most: Magna has never had a fraud incident in 14 years of business, and his carrier reps get paid on loads that lose money exactly as if they made a hundred dollars. Ask him how a small team stays disciplined on a hard-to-cover load at 4:30 on a Friday, and the answer starts with how people get paid, not with a compliance tool. Jacob spent ten years on big brokerage floors before he started Magna, a Chicago boutique focused on dry van freight in the lower 48 east of the Mississippi. He sat in a parking lot for an hour before he could make himself walk in and resign, took a massive pay cut, and started with three partners, four computers, and a spreadsheet of shippers pulled off Google over the weekend. The first load was Woodchuck hard cider. Fourteen years on he has bought out the last of his partners and built a shop that goes after just-in-time enterprise freight against brokers many times its size. In this conversation, Jacob explains the pay structure that gets a $1,000 losing load worked like a $100 winner, why the preferred carrier at $1,300 beats the unknown carrier at $1,200 every time, and the smell tests his team ran on carriers years before RMIS and Highway existed. He also gets into the rule that every new hire tracks loads for their first three to six months, the check call policy he wrote at the start that still runs alongside the tracking pings, and why the one-to-two-hour gap between a load being sold and a driver being verified is where most shipments actually fail. What you'll learn:- Why Magna pays carrier reps on losing loads: how treating a $1,000 loss like a $100 win removes the incentive to slap a shaky carrier on a load and walk out the door- How incentives connect to fraud: Jacob's view that most fraud and most mistakes come from "pushing sausages through the factory too fast," and why five or ten seconds of qualifying prevents a catastrophe- What fraud prevention looked like before the compliance tools: the running list of red flags, license plate and ID photos, and the smell tests every rep is trained on- Why every new hire tracks loads for three to six months: how the rule teaches internal communication, what to look for, and why Jacob says Magna operates differently from a big floor- Why tracking tech doesn't replace the check call: the policy Jacob wrote at the start, why a ping an hour out doesn't mean on time, and the sold-to-verified gap where shipments fail- How a boutique competes for enterprise freight: the case for just-in-time shippers working with a team that gives the same high-level touch all day and into after hours- Why "be really good at something" beats a hundred offerings: how Magna picked dry van east of the Mississippi and stopped chasing the customers who email 50 brokers at once- What the market transition looks like from a boutique: rebids, spot activity down, and why Jacob says the years of building through the down market are paying off now- Who succeeds at Magna: the Chicago Public Schools teacher who came in through operations and became the best account executive on the floor, and what "take ownership" means day to day Time-stamped highlights:- (00:00) Intro: everything has been rebid, new pricing is in, and spot activity is down across the board- (01:54) Why Jacob says the market transition was necessary and how Magna balanced contract freight against spot- (04:10) The customer Magna wants: sophisticated enterprise accounts, not five or six loads a week- (05:20) What "boutique" means in practice: an owner on the floor every day and the inefficiencies Jacob took out of the big-floor model- (08:48) The decision to leave a stable job, the massive pay cut, and an hour sitting in a parking lot before resigning- (10:29) "There was nothing wrong with my path, but I knew it wasn't my path"- (11:13) Four computers in a small room and calling shippers sourced off Google- (12:23) Three partners, a buyout three years ago, and the first load: Woodchuck hard cider- (12:52) Two or three loads on the board, no carriers willing to work with them, and the Centralia auto-rack account that started the mojo- (14:43) Alone in the office for nine hours on a snowy day, calling off a spreadsheet- (16:02) The pitch that won early freight: knowing the region and the seasonality, not name-dropping former employers- (17:57) Why a just-in-time enterprise shipper is a bad fit for a huge shop- (18:57) Payless versus Gucci, and why the operations team is not data entry- (21:20) Refusing to be on an email with 50 brokers, and picking dry van in the lower 48 east of the Mississippi- (24:00) The rule: every new hire tracks loads for three to six months, no matter their experience- (27:04) What new hires learn: internal notes on every shipper and receiver, and reading between the lines- (29:13) Who does well at Magna: extremely hard-working, hungry people who love teams- (30:19) Low turnover, three or four interviews, and spotting a whatever-it-takes attitude- (31:19) The Chicago Public Schools teacher who became Magna's best account executive- (35:18) Team structure: carrier, operations, tracking, and outsourced night tracking- (36:16) The check call policy Jacob wrote at the start, and why reporting a pickup after the actual time is a failure- (38:17) Qualifying the load properly and the one-to-two-hour gap between sold and verified where shipments fail- (40:17) "Old school stuff" and why understanding the pulse of the market every morning is how you make money- (42:58) Everybody preaches service; how Magna gets the shot to prove it- (45:07) Fourteen years fraud-free: the red-flag list, license plate and ID photos, and smell tests before compliance tools existed- (47:00) "Pushing sausages through the factory too fast" and the five or ten seconds that prevent a catastrophe- (48:38) Why carrier reps get paid on losing loads as if they made $100- (49:38) Every load gets worked like a winner, and why the bottom line is what matters- (50:55) The preferred carrier at $1,300 over the unknown at $1,200, and why cutting corners doesn't go far Guest:Jacob Benbenek — President, Magna Jacob spent ten years at two large brokerages before starting Magna in Chicago with three partners, buying out the last of them three years ago. Magna is a boutique 3PL focused on dry van freight in the lower 48 east of the Mississippi, built around just-in-time enterprise shippers in manufacturing and beverage. Fourteen years in, he is still on the floor every day, and the company has never had a fraud incident.

    Jacob Benbenek (Magna) on Why His Reps Get Paid on Losing Loads and How He's Gone 14 Years Without Fraud

  4. Aug 28

    Steve Wineriter (American Diamond) on Going From Stuck at $45M to a $100M Run Rate

    Most brokerages that stall in the $40-50M range never get out. The math is unforgiving: growing means hiring, onboarding, and training faster than the volume arrives, but staffing ahead of volume burns cash you don't have yet. American Diamond Logistics sat at $44-45M for three straight years. Then, in a matter of months, its run rate jumped to nearly $100M. Steve Wineriter has been in freight since 2002, when he joined his dad's 3PL out of college. After founding American Diamond, he made a decision that had no business working: in 2016, as a roughly $5M company, he built his own TMS and GPS tracking platform, sketched out on an actual bar napkin after a chance meeting on a shuttle bus. Navigator and Freight Tracer went live January 1, 2017, and within five years the company had scaled past $50M. One of the largest 3PLs on the planet later subcontracted American Diamond on one condition: don't show the client your technology, because it's better than ours. In this conversation, Steve breaks down what it actually takes to break through the revenue ceiling: why the plateau is a staffing math problem rather than a sales problem, how automating carrier calls, load sheets, appointments, and track and trace turned a floor that sounded like the New York Stock Exchange into a quiet one, and why his agent department went from zero to over $20M in three years. He also gives his read on the strangest freight market of his 25-year career. What you'll learn: - Why the $50M ceiling is a staffing math problem: the chicken-or-egg trap where 3PLs wait for volume before hiring, then can't onboard fast enough when it arrives- The bar-napkin TMS: how a $5M brokerage built Navigator and Freight Tracer with outsourced developers and why owning the roadmap became the business model- Why Steve wanted a sales-centric TMS when everything on the market was a back-office data placeholder, and how it changed his reps' first 60 seconds with a prospect- The Starbucks meeting where one of the biggest 3PLs in the world asked American Diamond to hide its technology from a shared client- Why the agent model outpaces hiring salespeople: non-solicits handcuff new hires for 12-24 months while agents bring their book with them- What changed on the floor: 15-20,000 inbound calls a week, now handled without a human picking up, and Steve's motto that AI handles the transactions so staff can manage the relationships- How John Drager, one of the leading figures behind Landstar's agent success, is scaling American Diamond's agent department- Steve's market read: why this is a supply-driven market unlike anything since he started in 2002, and why he thinks demand in 2026-27 could outpace COVID- Why data is currency: how capturing every spot quote gives American Diamond pricing visibility when tools like DAT are going back to the drawing board Time-stamped highlights: - (00:00) Intro and Steve's vision for a technology-centric 3PL- (02:19) The old solicitation model: a salmon swimming upriver- (02:48) Building a TMS at $3.5-5.5M in revenue with no business doing it- (04:39) The trampoline park, the shuttle bus, and the chance meeting that started it all- (05:38) Sketching the TMS on an actual bar napkin in New Orleans- (06:07) Building a GPS platform without knowing Macro Point existed- (07:29) Spinning the technology out as its own company and giving developers equity- (07:58) Why the TMSs of that era were back-office data placeholders, not sales tools- (08:57) Going live January 1, 2017 at $6M and scaling past $50M in five years- (10:34) The mystery call that turned out to be one of the biggest 3PLs on the planet- (11:26) "Do not share your technology with the client, because it's better than what we have"- (13:27) Starting in freight in 2002, when a loaded trailer disappeared around the corner- (14:23) Tracking through the driver's phone, pinging every five to ten minutes- (15:50) Fighting 30-40% driver acceptance in the early days- (18:53) Turning internal lane data into a carrier RFP tool- (19:46) Covering a load at the projected rate in three minutes with a 500-carrier blast- (22:00) Learning the business at his dad's 3PL and discovering the agent concept- (23:25) Why agents scale faster than salespeople stuck under non-solicits- (24:22) Over $20M in agent revenue by the third full year- (25:47) What agents actually care about: the split and the model- (29:16) Change management with traditional agents and the light-bulb moment- (31:17) The floor that sounded like the New York Stock Exchange, now silent- (33:43) John Drager, Landstar, and "I hope you're ready for hundreds of millions of dollars"- (39:22) Three flat years at $44-45M, then a run rate near $100M- (41:19) The chicken-or-egg staffing trap that keeps 3PLs at the ceiling- (42:12) 15-20,000 inbound calls a week and the opportunities that got missed for 15 years- (44:21) "I was not a very good operator back then. We were just printing money."- (45:18) AI handles the transactions so staff can manage the relationships- (48:09) Educating shippers: the first one to find a truck gets the load- (50:37) The strangest market in Steve's 25 years and what makes it supply-driven- (52:58) Why demand in 2026-27 could outpace COVID- (58:49) Data is currency: capturing every spot quote- (59:17) How AI agents should talk to dispatchers, and avoiding carrier fatigue- (01:02:03) What Steve is most excited about for the next 12 months Guest:Steve Wineriter — Founder & CEO, American Diamond Logistics Steve started in freight in 2002 at his father's 3PL and went on to found American Diamond Logistics, where he bet a $5M company on building its own TMS and GPS tracking platform in 2016. That technology became the business model: American Diamond scaled past $50M within five years of launch and now sits at a run rate near $100M, powered by a fast-growing agent department and an operating model where AI handles the transactions and people manage the relationships.

    Steve Wineriter (American Diamond) on Going From Stuck at $45M to a $100M Run Rate

  5. Jul 21

    Matthew Leffler (The Armchair Attorney) on Montgomery and the New Era of Broker Liability

    Going into the Montgomery case, everyone expected the brokers to win. The FMCSA and the Department of Transportation both filed on the brokers' side. Matthew Leffler, a supply chain attorney and law professor, called it for the brokers too. The Supreme Court came back unanimous, against them, and wiped out a presumption the entire brokered freight model was built on: that when a motor carrier has a catastrophic accident, the broker isn't the one who pays. Matthew calls Montgomery the most profound Supreme Court decision ever handed down for brokers and 3PLs, and in this conversation he explains why. The ruling leaves two questions nobody can answer, not even the regulator: what makes a motor carrier unsafe, and what counts as a reasonable vetting process? With 94% of carriers carrying no safety rating and 6,000 new ones entering every month, brokers are now held to a standard the FMCSA itself can't define, and the only way answers arrive is through litigation. From there the conversation widens out into the forces that got the industry here: deregulation since 1980, the beacon waiver quietly clearing the road for autonomous trucks, the cargo theft wave and the CORCA bill stalled in the Senate, and the Slaughter decision reshaping who controls the federal agencies that regulate freight. What you'll learn: Why Montgomery matters more than any prior broker case: how it erased the decades-old presumption that a carrier's accident wasn't the broker's liability, across every federal circuit at onceHow the circuit split actually formed: why the Ninth and Seventh Circuits read the same 1994 F4A statute and reached opposite conclusionsThe two unanswerable questions the ruling created: what is an unsafe carrier, and what is a reasonable vetting process, and why only litigation can settle themWhy carriers are effectively judgment-proof: the $750K minimum insurance set in 1985, and why plaintiff attorneys now name the broker in every suitWhat a defensible vetting process looks like in practice: written policy, no deviation, and pressure-testing it with your insurer and outside counselWhy insurance premiums are already up 3 to 5x, and how discovery will pull every big broker's "proprietary" carrier-selection process into the openHow deregulation since 1980 set the stage: 18,000 carriers then versus 600,000 now, the collapse of trucking's union share, and the $8B consumer-savings bet behind the Motor Carrier ActWhy the technology for autonomous trucks is ready and regulation is the only barrier: the beacon waiver, remote-operator questions, and a rulemaking that drew fewer than 400 commentsHow organized cargo theft actually works now: cartels hacking ELDs to reroute trucks, and why CORCA is the tool built to fight itWhat the Slaughter decision changes: the end of for-cause protection at federal agencies and what that means for the regulators over freightTime-stamped highlights: (00:00) Matthew on why he's rooting for the robots(01:32) Why Montgomery is the most profound Supreme Court decision ever for brokers and 3PLs(02:26) How brokers went from moving ~5% of freight to 25-30%(03:17) The circuit split: Ninth Circuit vs Seventh Circuit on the same F4A statute(04:18) The unanimous ruling, Matthew admitting he was wrong, and the two questions with no answers(05:04) Why litigation is now the only path to answers(05:49) The travel-agent analogy for what freight brokers actually do(06:17) The FMCSA's billion-dollar budget against 600,000+ carriers(07:12) How brokers vet on price, route, and service, and where the gap opens(08:09) The $750K insurance minimum set in 1985 and the underinsured-carrier problem(08:35) Why plaintiff attorneys go after brokers, shippers, and leasing companies(09:55) The US Chamber, TIA, FMCSA, and DOT all filing on the brokers' side(10:54) How carrier safety audits actually work, and the conditional-rating problem(11:24) 6,000 carriers a month, and why vetting tools can't tell you if a driver is sleepy(12:18) What Matthew would tell a brokerage to do right now(13:55) No legal requirement to carry contingent auto, and why you need it anyway(14:24) Premiums up 3 to 5x as insurers price in the new liability(16:14) The plaintiff strategy of suing everyone with money left(17:06) Why every broker's confidential vetting process is headed for discovery(21:13) The Wabash case: a $462M Missouri verdict and how tort reform revised it(23:29) Private equity and venture money now backing plaintiffs(23:57) The 22% out-of-service rate: one in five trucks unsafe(25:07) The deregulation story, starting with his father at Roadway in 1976(27:12) Carter, the Motor Carrier Act, and the $8B consumer-savings bet(27:32) Roadway Package Systems to Caliber to FedEx Ground(30:47) Kodiak and Aurora hauling Houston to Dallas every day(31:43) The beacon waiver and the broken-down autonomous truck problem(32:40) The rulemaking that drew fewer than 400 public comments(37:48) Why California has tried to ban driverless trucks twice(40:31) Reported cargo theft near $1B, with estimates as high as $35B(42:35) CORCA explained, and why it's stalled in the Senate(46:34) How cartels hack ELDs and reroute trucks without the driver knowing(50:27) The Slaughter case, Chevron, and the reshaping of federal agencies(58:11) What Matthew is most excited about over the next twelve monthsGuest: Matthew Leffler — supply chain attorney and law professor, known as The Armchair Attorney Matthew has spent 15 years in litigation across the freight and supply chain world and teaches as an adjunct law professor. He grew up in the industry: his father started a company maintaining equipment for Roadway Package Systems, the business that became Caliber and then FedEx Ground. Today he writes and speaks widely on the legal forces reshaping brokerage, from broker liability to autonomous trucking.

    Matthew Leffler (The Armchair Attorney) on Montgomery and the New Era of Broker Liability

  6. Jul 9

    Brandon Wolfe (Jordan Partners) on Why Freight Brokerage Is America's Most Underestimated Business

    Look at a freight brokerage P&L the way most investors do and you'll see a 10 to 20% gross margin, a 3 to 8% EBITDA margin, and a business at the mercy of the freight cycle. Brandon Wolfe looks at the same numbers and sees one of the most underestimated business models in the country. The catch, he says, is that the best brokerages stay private, so almost nobody gets to see what the model actually produces. Brandon is Co-founder & Managing Partner of Jordan Partners, a Raleigh-based private equity firm that aims to be the first institutional capital into growing, bootstrapped companies, and the owner of Sage Freight, a brokerage in suburban Nashville. In this conversation he makes the investor's case for brokerage: why gross margin is an accounting artifact rather than a measure of business quality, and how the model produces 20%+ returns on capital "from C.H. Robinson on down." He also explains where the pricing floor comes from when independent drivers exit the market, and why buying near that floor, as Jordan Partners did with Sage, is like buying the equity of a coiled spring. He also gets into the interest-cost math that quietly separates subscale brokers from scaled ones, what the Montgomery decision means for compliant operators, his build-versus-buy framework for technology at Sage, and why he's convinced AI will advance the brokerage model rather than disintermediate it. What you'll learn: Why brokerage is underestimated: booking the full transaction as revenue makes gross margin look thin, when return on capital, not margin, is the real measure of business qualityThe math behind 20%+ returns on capital: how a 2-4% net margin on a 10-20% gross margin business compounds, and why the best brokerages never have to go publicWhy Brandon trusts net income over EBITDA: the games that get played with EBITDA, including capitalizing tech spend, a shell game any future buyer will unwindHow interest costs change with scale: the delta between subscale factoring and an ABL is hundreds of basis points on the entire outstanding balance, and it disappears as you growWhere the pricing floor comes from: independent drivers leave the market below a certain cost per mile, which puts a bound on the downside that most variable-pricing industries don't haveHow to operate through the cycle: keeping your foot on the gas in the downturn, hiring and automating while everyone else cuts, then letting operating leverage flow through in the recoveryWhat business mix he underwrites: stable end markets like CPG and consumer staples, a blend of enterprise and mid-market customers, and no single account dominating the bookHis build-versus-buy framework: integrate the best off-the-shelf technology available, and build in-house only in the specific spots where you can genuinely do it betterWhat the Montgomery decision changes: good actors gain a competitive advantage, insurance costs rise, and fly-by-night operators get pushed outWhy AI won't disintermediate brokerage: if load boards didn't kill the model, automation-first execution with humans on the edge cases won't eitherTime-stamped highlights: (00:00) Intro(00:37) What Jordan Partners does: first institutional capital into growing, bootstrapped, unlevered companies(02:04) Why supply chain: making microeconomic bets in industries that are slow to change(06:57) Sage Freight, Jordan Partners' first supply chain investment(08:04) Why brokerage is one of the most underestimated business models in the country(08:58) The accounting quirk: booking the entire transaction as revenue(09:57) 20%+ return on capital "from C.H. Robinson on down"(10:26) Why Brandon is a net income investor, not an EBITDA investor(12:37) Financing the float: factoring, interest costs, and the sanity check on net income(14:04) The delta between subscale and scaled financing: hundreds of basis points, millions of dollars(15:07) Margins are a function of accounting rules; return on capital is a function of business quality(17:03) Where the pricing floor comes from when independent drivers leave the market(18:02) Keeping your foot on the gas through the downturn(18:31) Buying the equity of a coiled spring(20:26) The microeconomic bet: business mix, end markets, and customer concentration(25:29) Why brokers win by implementing technology, not inventing it(29:52) The Walmart model: dividend efficiencies back to customers and take share(31:06) Low-cost producers in inflationary vs. deflationary markets(34:45) Asset light vs. capital light, and why depreciation is near the top of Brandon's fear list(37:26) The Montgomery decision: good actors win, insurance costs rise(43:57) Why capitalizing R&D to boost EBITDA is a shell game(46:00) Build vs. buy: best-in-class off-the-shelf, integrated well, with selective in-house modules(52:38) Why big brokers build in-house: technical debt, office politics, and "don't break the COBOL"(57:12) "We will never be a tech company. We're a freight brokerage."(58:40) Brokerage as a trading system: when you find an edge, you don't broadcast it(01:01:03) The next five years: automation first, edge cases handed to teammates(01:03:34) If the internet didn't disintermediate brokers, will AI?(01:05:32) Managed transportation and earning the right to expand(01:08:07) What Brandon is excited about: pricing turning positive(01:09:12) The Jordan Mines story behind the firm's nameGuest: Brandon Wolfe — Co-founder & Managing Partner, Jordan Partners Brandon co-founded Jordan Partners, a Raleigh-based lower middle market private equity firm that aims to be the first institutional capital into growing, bootstrapped companies across supply chain, financial services, and compliance. The firm's first supply chain investment is Sage Freight, a brokerage based outside Nashville. Before founding the firm, Brandon spent 15 years investing across public and private markets, starting in payments, where he built his conviction that return on capital, not margin structure, is what reveals business quality.

    Brandon Wolfe (Jordan Partners) on Why Freight Brokerage Is America's Most Underestimated Business

  7. Jun 24

    Shannon Breen on Why FreightVana is a No-Commission Brokerage and Won 150 of the Largest Shippers

    For decades, brokerage has run on two assumptions: pay your reps on commission, and stay asset-light. Shannon Breen built FreightVana by breaking both. What happens when you strip commissions out of a brokerage entirely and own the trailers instead of the trucks? Shannon spent his corporate career inside a large public truckload carrier, where he helped stand up the power-only business after the Knight-Swift merger in 2017. He saw the structural problem up close: inside an asset-based carrier, the company trucks always win, so the partner-carrier network gets suboptimized every time the market turns. He left to build FreightVana on the inverse bet, own the trailers, partner for the power, and pay no commission so the whole team is aligned with the shipper and the carrier instead of the margin on any one load. Today FreightVana runs committed trailer networks for 150 of the largest shippers in the country. He also gives a sharp read on the current market: why the historic four-week spot run is squeezing committed freight networks, why this is not a repeat of COVID, and how rising standards and liability after Montgomery could split brokerage into two tiers. What you'll learn: Why FreightVana runs with no commission structure: how removing per-load incentives keeps the team aligned with shippers and carriers instead of extracting margin on every move"There are no solutions, only trade-offs": the cost Shannon accepted to build a non-commissioned model and why he'd make the same call againWhy he owns the trailers but not the trucks: the "totem pole" problem inside asset-based carriers that makes a true partner network impossibleHow a trailer-led model actually wins shippers: drop-trailer flexibility, interchangeability, and security standards a traditional broker struggles to matchWhy length of haul matters more than raw utilization: how a sub-200-mile drop pool becomes quasi-dedicated, and why FreightVana targets 500-plus-mile lanes to build a real networkWhat the model unlocks for small and mid-size carriers: drop-and-hook efficiency, less dwell time, and access to Fortune 500 networks they can't reach aloneWhy this market is not a repeat of COVID: the difference between a supply-driven run-up and a demand-driven one, and how Shannon navigates the contract squeeze with authenticity and dataHow rising standards could split brokerage into two tiers: why the top 200 brokers separate from the field, and why the broker's role gets more important, not lessTime-stamped highlights: (00:00) Intro and the state of the market: a historic four-week spot run and the pressure it puts on committed freight networks(01:29) What committed (contract) freight actually means and why a rising spot market squeezes it(01:50) Why this disruption is not a repeat of COVID: supply-driven versus demand-driven(02:50) Servicing 150-plus of the largest shippers in the country and the purview that gives him(04:06) Navigating the contract conversation with authenticity and data instead of emotion(06:09) FreightVana's disciplined pricing model and why you price for network connectivity(07:18) The split: roughly 45% on owned equipment, 55% traditional brokerage, and three pricing models(07:50) Why FreightVana has no commission structure and what drove that decision(09:00) Aligning with the customer instead of making margin on every single load(09:52) "There are no solutions, only trade-offs" and flipping the triangle(11:22) Why lofty commission structures are nearly impossible to undo once they're built(12:11) The Knight-Swift merger in 2017 and building power-only inside a large carrier(12:14) The "totem pole" theory: why company trucks always win and the partner network suffers(14:00) Building FreightVana from the ground up: trailers, technology, pricing, and no commission(14:43) Why FreightVana was not built for a freight recession(15:46) Security and insurance standards, and why he won't scrape the bottom of the barrel for capacity(17:36) The shipper value prop: drop-trailer flexibility and the long-tail carrier's truck-to-trailer ratio(18:36) The 15-trailer interchangeability example and why a fungible pool beats single-lane drops(21:45) Why the largest carriers' stock is up 40% in three months, and what pricing power leaves shippers(22:57) The pain points that signal a fit: freeing operations from live-load appointments(25:13) The carrier side of the value stream: access to Fortune 500 networks a small carrier can't reach alone(26:13) Dwell time, ATRI data, and the drop-and-hook efficiency the model gives smaller carriers(27:46) The typical FreightVana carrier: under 50 trucks, roughly 75% of the trucks on the road(30:00) Pricing discipline and why a commission floor undermines network density(31:21) Trucking's driver-first totem pole versus FreightVana's focus on the trailer network(33:21) Why sub-200-mile drop pools run quasi-dedicated, and why FreightVana targets 500-plus-mile lanes(35:10) The proprietary pricing algorithm reading freight flows behind every RFP(36:51) The Supreme Court / Montgomery decision and what it does to insurance and standards(38:58) The two-tier split: approved high-standard carriers versus a persistent lower-standard market(40:51) Shipper liability, the Texas case, and indemnity clauses in Fortune 500 contracts(42:57) Why the top 200 brokers hold roughly 90% of brokered volume(45:12) Does brokerage's structural role change? Why Shannon thinks it gets more important(52:08) What Shannon is watching next year: market stabilization, AI's ROI, and the broader economyGuest: Shannon Breen — Founder & CEO, FreightVana Shannon spent his corporate career in asset-based trucking, helping stand up the power-only business at a large public truckload carrier following the Knight-Swift merger in 2017. He left to found FreightVana, a brokerage built on an inverted model: it owns the trailers rather than the trucks and runs with no commission structure, betting that alignment with shippers and carriers beats per-load margin. Today FreightVana operates committed trailer networks for more than 150 of the largest shippers in the country.

  8. Jun 12

    Harman Cheema on Why Shippers Are Flooding Back to Asset Carriers (Cheema Logistics & Freightlines)

    or three years, asset-based carriers got beaten on price by capacity that hauled freight for half of what a real truck needed to break even. Now the cycle has turned, and the shippers who spent those years chasing the cheapest option are calling back. Harman Cheema is in a rare seat to see all of it: he runs 500 trucks and 2,000 trailers at Cheema Freightlines, plus a brokerage at Cheema Logistics approaching $100M in revenue. He's getting the calls. He's also telling a lot of them to wait their turn. Harman started Cheema Freightlines in 2006 and launched the brokerage three years later, almost by accident, when customers needed more loads covered than he had trucks for. Running both sides through this market has given him a clear read on why rates collapsed, why they're climbing back, and why this correction is different from every other one he's lived through. In this conversation he walks through the zombie capacity that set the market floor, the broker liability ruling and what it means when you do power-only, the 100% driver turnover problem nobody has solved, and why he thinks brokers are about to lose the route-guide seat they've held for a decade. He also gets into the operational reality of running an asset carrier and a brokerage under one roof: when the two businesses present a united front, when they have to be kept completely separate, and how he structures incentives so they aren't fighting each other over the same freight. What you'll learn: - Why his own brokerage was undercutting his own trucks: how the same Seattle-to-LA lane could be covered for $0.50 a mile when his fleet needed $1.25 to break even - How zombie capacity set the floor: why carriers that weren't making truck payments could haul cheaper than anyone, and why the banks let them keep running - What the broker liability ruling actually changes: why it's good news for assets, scary for brokerages, and especially exposed when you run power-only with your own trailer - Why shippers are coming back to asset carriers: how legal teams and falling-off capacity are pushing freight back toward trucks shippers can actually diligence - Why this correction is different from COVID: capacity left and isn't coming back, because the driver pipeline is being cut off rather than refilled - Why trucking has a retention problem, not a driver shortage: the fallback-career dynamic, aging owner-operators, and the dwell time that burns drivers out - Why brokers are about to lose their route-guide seat: how the cheap-capacity era let brokers act like carriers, and why that's reverting to partnership - How to run an asset carrier and a brokerage together: when to present a united front, when to keep them separate, and how diversifying debt load keeps the balance sheet healthy Time-stamped highlights: - (00:00) Intro and why Harman has a rare both-sides vantage point on the market - (00:46) The Supreme Court broker liability ruling: good for assets, scary for brokerages - (01:26) The spookier part of power-only: not knowing who's actually driving your trailer - (03:44) Why the ruling drives more opportunity to asset-based carriers - (04:01) The fleet: 500 trucks and 2,000 trailers across the western half of the country - (04:55) Why shipper legal teams will push transportation managers toward asset solutions - (05:51) Pass-through liability and why everyone is on the hook together now - (07:13) The dinner-table argument: safety-investing fleets vs. cheap capacity - (08:06) The West Coast example: $1.25 a mile to break even vs. $0.50 from the brokerage - (10:02) Zombie capacity: non-domiciled drivers, unsafe carriers, and the bank fiasco - (10:30) Why banks let upside-down trucks keep running instead of repossessing them - (11:00) Locked into cheap contracts while cheap capacity grabs the high spot loads - (11:13) The "why did you bid this in January?" conversations with customers - (13:34) The ski boat vs. the Titanic: why small carriers can pivot and big ones can't - (14:45) Spot now passing contract, renegotiating in real time, just not fast enough - (15:19) Shippers calling back and why partners who stuck around get first refusal - (17:38) Why more spot volume doesn't mean more money: there just aren't enough trucks - (18:05) The same SoCal-to-Northwest load swinging $4,500 to $7,000 in one week - (18:46) How to quote spot freight in a market that moves hour by hour - (20:14) Why this is nothing like COVID: no hope of capacity coming back - (20:51) The 100% driver turnover problem: a retention issue, not a shortage - (22:18) Playing chess with marbles: trailer pools, dwell time, and the driver who pays - (24:56) CNS Grocers vs. Costco: why an 8-10 hour dock destroys a good load - (26:05) The broken bid feedback loop: why the incumbent carrier has the shortest stick - (29:42) Why brokers became "carriers" on route guides and why that's about to reverse - (33:48) Carrier-first identity and how the combined enterprise sales team works - (36:13) The origin story: trucking in 2006, brokerage in 2009, born out of overflow - (37:43) Diversifying debt load: how the brokerage keeps the asset balance sheet healthy - (45:31) His take on autonomous and electric trucks and when they'll pencil - (49:20) What Harman is most excited about over the next twelve months Guest: Harman Cheema — President & CEO, Cheema Freightlines & Cheema Logistics Harman founded Cheema Freightlines in 2006 and launched Cheema Logistics in 2009 after customers began asking him to cover more freight than his trucks could carry. Today he runs an asset fleet of 500 trucks and 2,000 trailers across the western U.S. alongside a brokerage approaching $100M in revenue, giving him a firsthand read on both sides of every market shift.

See All (32)

About

The Freight Show brings stories of freight and logistics leaders who’ve shaped the industry. Through in-depth conversations, we explore their journeys, the challenges they’ve overcome, and the insights that have driven their success. Each episode uncovers the lessons, strategies, and wisdom of these freight leaders.

Information

  • Creator
    Vooma
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    32
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Vooma

You Might Also Like