Church Staff Book Club

Jonathan Malm
  • 5.0 (4)
  • Management
  • Series

A podcast for church leaders who want to grow but don’t have time to read every book. Join authors Jonathan Malm and Jason Young as they break down leadership books chapter by chapter, sharing practical insights and real-life ministry applications along the way. Whether you’re reading along or just listening in, this is your go-to resource for becoming a better leader... One conversation at a time.

  1. Episode 1

    The 4 Ways to Handle Difficult People at Church (Only One Works)

    There are four ways to handle a difficult person at church: avoid them, change them, cancel them, or understand them. Three of those feel easier. Only one actually works. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young kick off a new book, How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and dig into Chapter 1. Everyone has someone in mind when they hear that title. A volunteer who never shows up on time. A pastor who doesn't respect your ideas. A coworker whose voice alone sets you off. But the first chapter has a twist: you're complicated too. 74% of people think they're easier to work with than average, and the math on that doesn't work. Jonathan shares how his dad helped him see that his frustration with a pushy youth pastor was mostly about his own insecurity, and Jason explains why "understand them" feels so unfair even though it's the only option with a real payoff. In this episode we cover: - Why in church world the difficult person is usually a volunteer, not a coworker - The difference between working with complicated people and staying in a toxic environment - Why church isn't the only way to be in ministry - The five traits people associate most with complicated coworkers - How personality, culture, and values (think DISC) make people seem difficult when they're just different - Judge me by my intentions, I'll judge you by your actions: the unfair scale we all use - Why complicated doesn't mean bad - The question to ask yourself: why does this frustrate me so much? - The four options: avoid, change, cancel, or understand - 95% of people think they're self-aware. Research says 10 to 15% are. - Why your default muscle (avoiding, fighting, or fixing) is costing you the same energy as understanding would

  2. Episode 2

    The Most Annoying Person on Your Church Staff Might Be Your Best Teacher

    The person on your church staff who drives you crazy might be the one you have the most to learn from. In this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young dig into Chapter 2 of How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and why it's worth doing the hard work of understanding difficult coworkers instead of writing them off. Jonathan opens with a confession. When he was younger, he learned from everyone because he assumed every adult had it figured out. Now he sees dysfunction faster, dismisses people quicker, and learns less. He shares the story of a college pastor who burned him badly, and why he still carries lessons from that man today. Jason tells the story of a coworker whose voice alone made him cringe, and what he realized years later about why that person was on staff in the first place. Then there's the time Jonathan got fired because his own personality test flagged him as hard to manage. In this episode we cover: • Why we stop learning from people as we get older, and what it costs us • New research: people aren't leaving bad bosses anymore. They're leaving bad coworkers. • Why it's hard to love what you do when you struggle with who you do it with • Empathy: everyone is carrying something into the meeting you can't see • Is this person always difficult, or are they in a season? • Why people operate the way they do (and the lesson they learned that got them there) • The Bachelor lesson: the person you obsess over is the reason you get voted off • Don't answer a fool according to his folly • You can't fix them, but you can control how you show up • Leading with curiosity instead of frustration • Why almost every work problem is partly a people problem • Culture is built one interaction at a time

  3. Episode 3

    Stop Expecting Your Church Staff to Be Someone They’ve Shown You They’re Not

    Stop expecting your church staff to be someone they've shown you they're not. That's the challenge at the center of Chapter 3 of How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak, and in this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young get practical about what it takes to stop being surprised, frustrated, and disappointed by the people you work with. Most of the frustration we feel with a staff member or volunteer lives in the gap between what they did and what we expected them to do. The problem is we rarely know what our expectations are until someone fails to meet them. Jason shares how unspoken expectations nearly derailed the early years of his marriage. Jonathan talks about how a counseling session after a miscarriage revealed that he and his wife were grieving the same loss in completely different ways, and why that lesson applies to every person on your team. In this episode we cover: • Preparing your expectations in advance (and why Ryan does it before rush hour) • How a 30-second pause in the driveway changed Jonathan's evenings with his kids • Are you expecting people to do what the situation requires, or to do it the way you would? • The expectations detox every leader needs • Why you need an outside perspective to see your own unrealistic expectations • Cultural differences: why "different" doesn't mean "wrong" • Your assignment: what did they do, what did I expect, and was it actually wrong? • The ladder of inference and why we leap from one observation to a verdict • Behavior vs. identity: "you are lazy" vs. "you did this" • Why discomfort, the unknown, and a lack of control don't mean someone is wrong • Is this person really the problem, or have I hit a limit in my capacity? • Two questions to ask: what am I responsible for here, and am I managing it well?

  4. Episode 4

    Why Encouragement Is the Cure for an Arrogant Team Member

    The cure for an arrogant team member isn't a reality check. It's encouragement. That sounds backwards, but in this episode of the Church Staff Book Club, Jonathan Malm and Jason Young walk through Chapter 4 of How to Work with Complicated People by Ryan Leak and explain why most arrogance is insecurity in disguise, and why the stories we tell ourselves about difficult people shape how we treat them. Jonathan shares the story of Alex, a moody 16-year-old electric guitarist on his worship team who had an attitude and wasn't even the best player. Jonathan was ready to cut him. Instead he started encouraging him, and the kid who seemed impossible to work with became easy to work with almost overnight. Alex now lives in Nashville, produces music, and still works with Jonathan at Sunday Social. Jason explains the brain science behind why that shift worked, including the reticular activating system and why you find whatever you're looking for in people. In this episode we cover: • Why your brain is a meaning-making machine, and why that's dangerous • The friend Jonathan wrongly labeled as fake for six years • Why we default to the negative label when we can't figure someone out • The red car theory: whatever you look for, you'll find more of • Maybe the person didn't change. Maybe your story about them did. • Everyone thinks they're David. Nobody thinks they're Goliath. • Brené Brown's generous assumption, and why everyone is desperately insecure • How to give someone the benefit of the doubt without being naive • Why benefit of the doubt and accountability aren't opposites • Fundamental attribution error: why we judge others by character and ourselves by circumstance • How a disagreement at the coworking space could have saved Jonathan 400 followers • Why stories are 22 times more memorable, and why that matters for the ones you tell yourself • People rise to their reputation. Give them a good one.

See All Season 5 (4)

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
4 Ratings

About

A podcast for church leaders who want to grow but don’t have time to read every book. Join authors Jonathan Malm and Jason Young as they break down leadership books chapter by chapter, sharing practical insights and real-life ministry applications along the way. Whether you’re reading along or just listening in, this is your go-to resource for becoming a better leader... One conversation at a time.

Information

  • Creator
    Jonathan Malm
  • Episodes
    42
  • Seasons
    5
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Jonathan Malm
  • Show Website
    Church Staff Book Club

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