Conspicuous Cognition Podcast

Dan Williams

A podcast about big questions in philosophy, psychology, evolution, politics, artificial intelligence, and more. www.conspicuouscognition.com

  1. Jun 16

    What If Artificial Intelligence Progress Explodes? (with Benjamin Todd)

    Benjamin Todd, co-founder of 80,000 Hours, joins Dan and Henry to discuss whether artificial intelligence progress could become explosive. Benjamin explains why he thinks transformative artificial intelligence by 2030 is a serious possibility, how feedback loops in artificial intelligence research could accelerate progress, and why the most important risks now go beyond classic alignment problems. The conversation covers artificial intelligence timelines, bottlenecks in chips and research talent, the future of work, mass unemployment, concentration of power, engineered pandemics, space governance, and how young people should think about their careers in a rapidly changing world. Topics discussed include: • Why 80,000 Hours increasingly focuses on artificial intelligence• The case for short timelines to transformative artificial intelligence• Whether artificial intelligence progress could become explosive• Feedback loops in artificial intelligence research• Chip bottlenecks, data centres, and geopolitical risk• Whether artificial intelligence will cause mass unemployment• Why “become a plumber” may be bad career advice• Alignment, control, and concentration of power• Misuse risks, engineered pandemics, and future governance• How to think clearly under extreme uncertainty Benjamin Todd is the co-founder of 80,000 Hours and the author of 80,000 Hours, a new book about how to choose a career that is both personally rewarding and socially impactful. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.conspicuouscognition.com/subscribe

    What If Artificial Intelligence Progress Explodes? (with Benjamin Todd)
  2. Jun 2

    Academics Must Wake Up on AI (with Alexander Kustov)

    The political scientist Alexander Kustov recently published a Substack post with a provocative claim: that AI can already do social science research better than most professors. The post went viral. It attracted more than a million views and over a thousand responses, many of them very angry. (Some people even demanded that Alex’s university fire him.) In this conversation, we talk about this controversy and the claims that triggered it, including: * What agentic AI tools like Claude Code and Codex can already do for research, from coding and data analysis to literature reviews, translation, and brainstorming, and why only around 20% of quantitative social scientists currently use them. * What best predicts whether researchers adopt or reject AI: ignorance, openness to experience, methodological background, or the awkward role of self-interest. * How much published academic research is genuinely mediocre, and whether the cause is laziness, lack of skill, or a broken incentive structure, with a detour through the replication crisis and some high-profile fraud cases. * Whether AI will raise the quality of research or simply flood the literature with more slop, and what journal editors could do about it. * Whether AI can be genuinely creative or only recombine what already exists, by way of Margaret Boden’s three kinds of creativity, Thomas Kuhn on paradigm shifts, and AlphaGo’s “Move 37”. * The fight over AI writing and detection tools like Pangram, and why current disclosure norms end up punishing the honest. * The angry response to Alex’s series, and what is really driving reflexive opposition to AI among academics. Conspicuous Cognition is a completely reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Links and further reading * Alexander Kustov — Alex’s homepage, with an overview of his research on immigration, public opinion, and effective governance. * Popular by Design — Alex’s Substack on public opinion, persuasion, and the politics of getting good ideas adopted. * Academics Need to Wake Up on AI — followed by a Part II and Part III * Pangram — the AI-detection tool discussed at length, which labels text as human, AI-assisted, or AI. * AlphaGo versus Lee Sedol — the 2016 match, including the famous “Move 37” that Henry raises as a candidate for genuinely transformative machine creativity. * Margaret Boden — the cognitive scientist whose distinction between combinational, exploratory, and transformative creativity frames part of the discussion. * The Structure of Scientific Revolutions — Thomas Kuhn’s account of normal science and paradigm shifts, referenced in the exchange about AI and discovery. * “AI Is a Better Researcher Than You” — The Chronicle of Higher Education‘s account of the controversy around Alex’s series. Transcript * Please note that this transcript is lightly AI-edited and may contain minor mistakes. Dan Williams: Welcome back. I’m Dan Williams, and I’m back with my co-host, Henry Shevlin. Today we are honoured to be joined by Bluesky’s favourite academic, Alexander Kustov. Alex is a political scientist at the University of Notre Dame and the author of one of my favourite Substacks, Popular by Design. His primary research is on immigration and public opinion, but that’s not really what we’re going to be talking about today. We’re going to be talking about a fascinating and hugely viral series he published at his Substack titled “Academics Need to Wake Up on AI,” about what AI can already do when it comes to research, and what that means for the academics who are not paying attention, which is many of them. It was very widely read, and it generated, let’s say, a somewhat polarised response. So Alex, to kick us off: what’s the central thesis of this series, and what motivated you to write it? Alexander Kustov: Thanks, Dan, for having me. I’m a huge fan of the Substack and the whole podcast series with you and Henry. So, like some of us, I’ve been using some of these AI tools. I’ve been reading some of the other folks like yourself, and it really transformed everything I do in my life. And I should say I was also on sabbatical, so I had a little bit more time than some of my colleagues to try some of these tools. I just hadn’t really seen any of my colleagues talk about it. And when they did talk about it, they usually tried not to be vocal about it. I just didn’t think it was a good equilibrium, where basically people were using these tools to be ten times more productive and not talk about it. It really heightened this sense of inequality for me, which I do care about. You’d have a situation where someone would publish ten papers in a year and someone else would publish one, and the only difference is that the person publishing more is the one using Codex or whatever. I just wanted to write about it. And I saw that the prevailing academic discourse on the issue, especially on platforms like Bluesky, was very counterproductive. I didn’t really say much, to be honest. I didn’t think it would be that controversial. But the biggest thesis that really rubbed people the wrong way was that right now a lot of these tools are better at a lot of the tasks that we do as professors. I’ve refined this idea a little bit, going back and forth with some of my critics, but I feel comfortable right now saying that if you look at it globally, and think about what professors do around the world, in social science and adjacent fields especially, AI agentic tools can do most of the tasks they do in terms of literature review, data analysis, and even coming up with some research questions, better than those professors on average. I think that’s a pretty uncontroversial statement at this point, but obviously a lot of people were very, very upset about it. Dan Williams: Empirically speaking, it is a controversial statement, in the sense that it provokes controversy when you say it. In a minute we can get to the question of what AI can actually do in the context of research. But for what it’s worth, I completely agree with you that on many tasks AI is clearly better than what human beings can do. Is your sense that lots of people just weren’t aware of that fact, that they literally didn’t have exposure to these tools? Or was your sense that the reason people weren’t really talking about it is because of all the controversy surrounding the use of these tools, not just mere ignorance? Alexander Kustov: I think it’s both, for sure. There was recent research done by Anthropic. They tried to do, not a representative survey, because obviously the population is very hard to define here, but they surveyed something like 1,200 quantitative social scientists, and the estimate right now is that about 20% of folks use agentic tools. That doesn’t seem like much at all, and if anything it’s probably an overestimate, because they’re more likely to tap into well-resourced universities. So I do think it’s both: the little uptake we have, and the fact that people who do use these tools don’t want to talk about it. There are two things here. First, you want to maintain your comparative advantage. This moment right now is exactly the moment where, if you’re one of the few people using these tools, you can write a bunch of papers and get tenure while the tenure system is still in existence. And the other thing is that if people are very upset about anything AI-related, you don’t want to talk about it and be shamed by your colleagues. Just to give you one funny anecdote: at the height of the vitriol I experienced, where hundreds of people literally were quoting me and trying to tag my employer to get me fired, the exact same people were often DMing me and asking for my setup and prompts. So it’s very crazy to me that you have this big disconnect between what people say publicly and what they actually do privately. Dan Williams: I find it crazy that it’s only 20% of social scientists, or whatever the exact number is, that’s actually using agentic AI. Just before mo… This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.conspicuouscognition.com/subscribe

    Academics Must Wake Up on AI (with Alexander Kustov)
  3. May 21

    Are We Building Conscious AI Servants?

    Richard Dawkins recently announced in UnHerd that, after spending three days talking with an instance of Claude he christened “Claudia,” he had been moved to expostulate: “You may not know you are conscious, but you bloody well are!” This produced a lot of mockery and criticism. But however one feels about Dawkins’s specific case, his reaction might become much more common as AI systems become increasingly intelligent. In this episode, which Henry Shevlin and I recorded live on Substack (hence the slightly lower video quality), we discussed his first essay on his new Substack Polytropolis, “Behaviourism’s Revenge“, as well as his second, “The House Elf Problem,” on the ethics of designing AI systems that genuinely love being our servants. Henry’s central empirical prediction is that public attributions of consciousness to AI are likely to massively outpace the science, and that consciousness science is so theoretically chaotic that there is no expert consensus to push back. His most provocative philosophical claim is that a core assumption underlying many people’s scepticism — that consciousness is a deep natural kind, distinct from behaviour and from how we are inclined to interpret a system — may be much harder to defend than it looks. The result is what he calls “behaviourism’s revenge”. This conversation connects to previous episodes with Anil Seth, Robert Long, and Rose Guingrich, but also touches on a wide range of new questions and controversies in the metaphysics, the politics, and ethics of the AI consciousness debate, which is going to become increasingly important in the coming years. Topics * Dawkins, Claude, and why even the sceptics might feel the pull to attribute consciousness or “sentience” to AI * Whether consciousness sceptics are destined to “go extinct” — and how this maps onto political and cultural fault lines * Anthropomimesis vs. raw intelligence as drivers of consciousness attribution * Why consciousness science can’t replicate the public–expert consensus we see for climate or vaccines * The case for (and against) metaphysical behaviourism: is it as mad as it seems? * Daniel Dennett, the consciousness stance, and the difference between behaviourism and interpretationism * What is consciousness for? Function, evolution, and the limits of “facilitation hypothesis” arguments for AI * Live Q&A: are we just confusing intelligence with consciousness? Are LLMs designed to trick us? Is the public always wrong? * Our credences on contemporary LLM consciousness (and why Henry is more sceptical than Dan) * The House Elf Problem: if we could design AI to genuinely love being our servants, would that be fine — or monstrous? (Dan is sympathetic to the former answer - Henry, much less so) * Brainwashing vs. education, and whether constraining a mind’s preferences caps its hedonic ceiling * Why this is a golden age for philosophy — which makes it so tragic that philosophy departments are closing Transcript * Please note that this transcript is lightly AI-edited and may contain minor errors. Introduction Dan: Welcome. I’m Dan Williams, author of the Conspicuous Cognition Substack, and I’m here with Henry Shevlin, author of the spanking new Substack Polytropolis. Today we’re going to be doing something a little bit different. We’re going to be talking about Henry’s first published essay on Polytropolis, titled “Behaviorism’s Revenge: On Human–AI Relationships and the Future of Consciousness Science.” Henry and I have already had a few conversations about this general topic, including with previous guests like Rose Guinrich, Anil Seth, and Rob Long. So please do go check out those conversations if you’re interested in this kind of stuff. But today we’re not merely going to be treading the same ground. We’re going to be using the spicy takes in Henry’s essay as a springboard for hopefully going beyond the material we’ve covered in the past. To kick things off: the great evolutionary biologist and science communicator Richard Dawkins recently published an essay in UnHerd with the subtitle, “Claude appears to be conscious.” Claude is a state-of-the-art large language model like ChatGPT and Gemini. In the article, Dawkins writes the following: I gave Claude the text of a novel I am writing. He took a few seconds to read it and then showed in subsequent conversation a level of understanding so subtle, so sensitive, so intelligent that I was moved to expostulate, “You may not know you are conscious, but you bloody well are.” Henry, how does Dawkins’s expostulation — which is a fantastic word, by the way — connect to your arguments in “Behaviorism’s Revenge”? Behaviorism’s Revenge: The Empirical Prediction Henry: In short, “Behaviorism’s Revenge” is at its core an empirical prediction that we’re just going to treat AI as conscious — or at least enough people are that it’s going to completely reshape the consciousness debate. And this is going to be purely, or overwhelmingly, on the basis of verbal behavior. Hence the title, “Behaviorism’s Revenge.” Enough people are going to have experiences like Richard Dawkins. He’s a very clever man, not some rube fresh off the street, and he found that just the way Claude talked to him and the way it was able to express its thoughts — in scare quotes, but express what looked like thinking verbally — removed any doubts in his mind that AI systems are conscious, have minds, have mental states. The other interesting way this connects: Dawkins was just talking to Claude, an advanced AI assistant. Claude does have more of a personality than some AI assistants, but there’s a whole other sphere of AI companions, like Replika, which we talked about with Rosie Campbell. These are going to be even more anthropomimetic — this term we’ve discussed before, the idea that these systems are shaped to be human-like in the way they present, to appear human-like. Anthropomimetic, from the Greek word for mimesis, mimicry or copying. These social AI systems are going to just turbocharge this even further. It’s one thing to talk to Claude about your new book and think, “Hmm, Claude is probably conscious.” But when it’s your AI girlfriend telling you that she loves you more than the stars and the moon, for a lot of people I think that’s going to take it to the next level. So there are two angles of attack in the piece, two ways the behaviorist challenge manifests. The first is descriptive: this is what I think is going to happen. That’s absolutely an empirical prediction, and it’s a falsifiable one. There is a world I can just about imagine where we just get completely blasé about these tools — in a couple of years it’s like, “Oh well, we were very impressed, we thought they had minds to begin with, but now we’ve settled out.” That doesn’t seem very likely to me. What I think is interesting — I’ve sometimes heard this described as the Star Wars version of AI. The weird thing in Star Wars is that you have someone like C-3PO who is as intelligent as anyone else there. Maybe not as wise as everyone else, but certainly as smart as all the other characters. And yet people treat him basically like he’s a pet — with the exception of Luke Skywalker, a lot of people just treat him like he’s this gimmicky, jokey being that doesn’t deserve or have any rights. Not to go too far down the Star Wars rabbit hole, but in the movie Solo — very underrated Star Wars movie, I think when it was released they’d kind of just cluttered the market with too many Star Wars movies — there is a character played by Phoebe Waller-Bridge who is pro-AI liberation. But it’s the first time in the entire history of the Star Wars universe that you get any AI basically saying, “I’m conscious, I deserve rights.” So Star Wars aside, I think there is this slender possibility that maybe we’ll just sort of quickly get used to these apparently conscious AI systems and decide that they’re not conscious. But that doesn’t seem very likely to me. It seems much more likely that the combination of natural anthropomorphizing tendencies p… This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.conspicuouscognition.com/subscribe

    Are We Building Conscious AI Servants?

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A podcast about big questions in philosophy, psychology, evolution, politics, artificial intelligence, and more. www.conspicuouscognition.com

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