The conventional wisdom is that school reform has been dead for about a decade now, for better or worse. But the National Parents Union’s Charlie Barone has a different take, which is that a lot of different things are happen even if they aren’t national and bipartisan. That being said, NPU has just launched an effort to pass a national literacy law, beginning with the bipartisan introduction of a new bill. Watch the interview or read the transcript above (or on YouTube). Listen to the conversation on Spotify or Apple. KEY QUOTES “In the past we’ve gone through periods where there are very predominant policy initiatives going on that are nationwide — that everybody’s debating. This isn’t so much one of those times.” But that doesn’t mean reform isn’t happening — far from it. “There’s a lot of different things going on in different places and not one national zeitgeist. You have in the red states a big push toward choice right now…Another national conversation we’re having that isn’t happening everywhere, but is happening a lot of different places is literacy.” Unlike others, Barone takes a broad view of what constitutes “reform” that includes literacy, choice, and edtech. “I would put in the category of ed reform anything that’s asking people to do something differently than they’re doing now… I always think of reform in terms of give some resources but ask them to do something in return. And that would be my definition of reform. Because almost anything that you ask people to do differently than they’re doing now, you’re going to get resistance.” Based on his own personal experience, Barone gets the sense that tech makes teachers sit back. “I have two kids that are in a public middle school, they’re rising eighth graders, and I do see it in their classrooms. I can tell you from personal experience, there’s a little bit of hangover in their classrooms where there’s a tendency for teachers to wanna give them an assignment at the beginning of the class and then have them work independently at their desks on their Chromebook and complete assignments. And then the teacher just sort of sits back… But then like, what’s the teacher’s role, right?” On the issue of reform, Barone and I agree that the old days aren’t coming back — and that’s a good thing. “I mean on the NCLB question, there is some nostalgia. I think that’s in large part driven when people look back at the data and see a drop off in student achievement beginning around 2013. And that was right after the Obama administration began backing off of accountability and offering offering state waivers… But you know, we’ve learned some things since then.” “What we are seeing working in in some states is addressing capacity and resources tied to some evidence-based policy — particularly around reading and somewhat in math, where it’s basically a tiered system of support. So unlike ESSA, you’re not waiting for schools to fail. You’re saying on a statewide basis, here is Tier One, what we think every school should have access to: high-quality instructional materials, reading coaches, those kinds of things. And then you drill down to to Tiers Two and Three that’s more specialized, where you’re providing extra resources to either schools that are lagging or to students that are lagging, things like high impact tutoring. And so I think we can return to a time where we could see nationwide improvements in student achievement, but I don’t think the way to get there is to go back to NCLB.” “And look, other things are important than student achievement. NCLB was all about student achievement. It was great that we refocused the system on that, but you’ve gotta incentivize other types of outcomes for schools and students.” Asked if the time for a big push is now, Barone demures. “I don’t think we’re at that moment. I think the obstacles are on the right, this push toward choice and this idea that choice solves all your accountability problems.” A few red states have decided not to put all their eggs in the private school choice basket, says Barone — Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee — but others are all in on choice. “On the left, I think the primary obstacle is Democrats don’t have permission from the education establishment to talk about outcomes. They are discouraged from talking about outcomes. If you want to improve outcomes, the first thing you gotta do is start talking honestly about where you are. You know, I still watch a lot of hearings in Congress. I will tell you like Democrats have a really hard time bringing up outcomes because they’re discouraged from doing it because it’s seen as bad-mouthing the current system, and the current system is already under attack. So why do you want to further attack the system with you know negative talk about outcomes when it’s already under attack? That’s a recipe for things never getting any better.” “I have seen that change though, and I think what’s happening with reading is helping change this dynamic. Just over the last six months in watching hearings, I’ve seen more Democrats willing to talk about reading outcomes… My impression is that there’s a higher comfort level because just the level of awareness that’s been raised around student literacy is making it more comfortable for Democrats to bring this up. Now you gotta do something about it, right? Eventually. I think that’s the first step, and I see some progress on that first step being made these days.” “I think one of the things that’s made doing accountability hard is people feel like they’re being blamed or shamed because of the low student outcomes, and it makes them defensive and they feel like they’re working hard — and in most cases they are working hard, right?” “Back when I worked on the Hill for Congressman George Miller, we tried to push teacher prep reform — which I know you did with your boss, Jeff Bingaman — and we worked together on some of those things. And you know, one of Miller’s primary talking points were that students in schools of education were being short-changed. They were being cheated, sold a bill of goods that if they completed these programs, they’d be prepared to teach in a classroom. And then when they arrived in a classroom, most of them will tell you they weren’t. They weren’t taught how to teach reading. They weren’t taught how to manage a classroom. They weren’t taught how to develop a curriculum and a syllabus and those kinds of things. So I think that’s a big part of it.” “I think the coverage overall is pretty good. I I think a lot of people on the national beat are getting the story right. They’re asking the right questions… Sometimes the coverage though is a little simplistic. I brought this up at the EWA, where I feel like the the role of civil rights and disability groups in accountability is being underreported. You know, they they played a big role on ESSA in 2015. I’m not saying ESSA is the pinnacle of accountability, but the fact that ESSA has any accountability at all is largely due to civil rights and disability groups. And I don’t feel that was well covered.” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit alexanderrusso.substack.com/subscribe
