The Art of the Zag

Joe Lazer and Shane Snow
  • 5.0 (3)
  • Technology
  • Updated Weekly

Best-selling authors and long-time buddies Shane Snow and Joe Lazer explore how to win by zagging when everyone else is zigging—in business and in life. Learn breakthrough strategies for building trust, telling better stories, and winning the AI Age from the world's most innovative founders, authors, and icons. Have an idea for a guest? Email guest@joelazer.com. storytellingedge.substack.com

  1. AI Is Now Less Popular Than ICE: 5 Stories of the AI Revolt

    4d ago

    AI Is Now Less Popular Than ICE: 5 Stories of the AI Revolt

    AI now polls worse than ICE. Joe and Shane break down five stories of the AI revolt: booed CEOs, Gen Z sabotage, a $500M Claude Code bill, and the parent rebellion nobody’s pricing in.  Chapters:(00:00) The AI backlash is everywhere(03:00) AI now polls worse than ICE(08:15) The real story of the Luddites(17:05) Eric Schmidt gets booed(29:42) Is the jobpocalypse canceled?(48:08) The $500M Claude Code bill(01:02:45) Parents vs. AI in NYC schools(01:08:51) Joe's 2028 election prediction

    1h 13m
  2. Did Google Just Kill the Internet?

    May 21

    Did Google Just Kill the Internet?

    At Google I/O this week, the company revealed that the traditional 10 blue links experience is being replaced with a Gemini-powered AI chat experience. Joe and Shane break down what this means for publishers, creators, and anyone who still thinks of the web as a place you visit. Why would Google detonate its own golden goose? Joe and Shane work through the possibilities: cognitive entrenchment, the race to AGI, an AI delusion gripping Silicon Valley executives, and the very real possibility that Google is making a generational mistake in real time.

    34 min
  3. The AI Reality Gap

    May 19

    The AI Reality Gap

    AI demos look great. AI in real production work? Different story. Last quarter, Shane wrapped a TV show — a hybrid of live action and animation. Going in, the social media hype around AI animation tools suggested they could carry real production work. Shane tested them and was massively disappointed. Every frame of animation in the final show ended up being done by humans. That's the AI reality gap — and it's the topic of this conversation. Where AI did earn its keep on Shane's show: the operational side. Contract management, episode tracking, organizing assets. The admin layer, not the creative one. Joe and Shane unpack Shane's experience on set, then bring in AJ Thomas — founder of Good Trouble Ventures and former head of global talent at Google X's Moonshot Factory — to map where AI actually delivers versus where the hype outpaces reality. AJ's own career arc is the second story of the episode: nine months in a Honda Civic, a T-Mobile mall cart hustle that took her to top 1% of sales, executive recruiting, leadership at the Moonshot Factory, and now running a venture fund at the intersection of creativity and technology. Along the way: 36 job applications that all came back no — and six of those companies who later became her biggest clients. WHAT YOU'LL HEAR What Shane learned testing AI animation tools — and why the social media hype was wrong Where AI actually delivered: admin workflows, contract management, scheduling "We are almost through the beautiful season of garbage" — AJ on AI slop "We are humans, and we decide when AI gets in the loop" — flipping the industry's favorite phrase From a T-Mobile mall cart to Google X to running a venture fund Nine months living in a Honda Civic in the Bay Area The "stupid question" that made AJ a top 1% salesperson 36 job applications, all no — and the six that became clients "AI-native skills are basic manners" — the contrarian take on AI workforce skills "Entry-level CEOs": AJ's reframe for new grads worried about AI Why managers who keep managing will get left behind "If you expect to be managed, you're gonna fail" GUEST AJ Thomas — Founder, Good Trouble Ventures Good Trouble Ventures: [TK] Troublemaker Lab: [TK] LinkedIn: [TK] CHAPTERS (00:00) Joe and Shane on AI on set (01:41) Where AI animation fell short (08:54) AJ Thomas joins (15:22) Nine months in a Honda Civic (26:11) I don't fit into any resume (49:32) We decide when AI gets in the loop (01:00:29) Entry-level CEOs (01:05:26) Expect to be managed, you fail LISTEN / SUBSCRIBE Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245 Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcast ABOUT THE SHOW The Art of the Zag is the podcast about people who win big by zagging when everyone else is zigging. Hosted by Joe Lazer (bestselling author of The Storytelling Edge and Super Skill) and Shane Snow (bestselling author of Smartcuts and Dream Teams). #TheArtOfTheZag #JoeLazer #ShaneSnow #AJThomas #GoodTroubleVentures #AIRealityGap #FutureOfWork #AI #VentureCapital #Storytelling

    1h 7m
  4. The Surprising Science of Great Stories

    May 4

    The Surprising Science of Great Stories

    What if a neuroscientist could measure exactly which stories change your brain -- and which ones fall flat? Dr. Paul Zak is the neuroeconomist who spent two decades answering that question. His lab discovered that great stories spike oxytocin -- the neurochemical behind trust -- and built a platform that can predict which messages will change behavior with over 80% accuracy. Joe and Shane have written about his work extensively, and in this conversation, they go deep on the foundational science of storytelling, Zak's response to the critics, and his newest research on the science of happiness. Dr. Zak is a professor at Claremont Graduate University, founder of Immersion Neuroscience, and author of four books including his latest, The Little Book of Happiness. Website: https://pauljzak.com Free SIX App: https://your6.com The Little Book of Happiness: https://www.amazon.com/Little-Book-Happiness-Scientific-Approach/dp/1544547870 Immersion Neuroscience: https://getimmersion.com Chapters: (00:00) The scientist who made Shane cry (01:46) Dr. Paul Zak joins the show (02:28) The DARPA project behind storytelling (08:31) The 15-second rule (20:25) Does oxytocin have a dark side? (29:22) Six peak experiences a day to thrive (38:12) Isolation, Gen Z, and screen time (43:49) A video that reduced racial bias (47:49) Testosterone and political leanings (57:01) You are a weirdo

    59 min
  5. 3,000 Ideas in 30 Days: The Anti-McKinsey Method

    Apr 27

    3,000 Ideas in 30 Days: The Anti-McKinsey Method

    Two ex-McKinsey consultants quit the firm in the early 90s to do the opposite of what McKinsey does. The first time they tried it, one company found $400 million in earnings. Jeremy Eden and Terri Long, co-CEOs of Harvest Earnings Group and authors of the New York Times bestseller "Low-Hanging Fruit," join Joe Lazer and Shane Snow to break down theIdea Harvest methodology — a 100-day process that asks the people closest to the work, not the executives in the boardroom, where the company is broken. The answers, it turns out, are almost always already inside. Get the book "Low-Hanging Fruit: 77 Eye-Opening Ways to Improve Productivity and Profits": https://www.harvestearnings.com/lowhangingfruit More on Harvest Earnings: https://www.harvestearnings.com Jeremy and Terri's podcast "The Elephant in the Boardroom" is on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. CHAPTERS (00:00) Why companies fear edgy ideas (05:08) Jeremy and Terri join the show (11:19) Why Jeremy quit McKinsey (22:34) Why companies still hire McKinsey (24:00) Heinz: 3,000 ideas in 30 days (37:40) The AI desperation trap (1:04:32) "Relax" and the case against benchmarking

    1h 11m
  6. The Fiction Writer Who Built Silicon Valley's Favorite Newsletter | Mario Gabriele

    Apr 13

    The Fiction Writer Who Built Silicon Valley's Favorite Newsletter | Mario Gabriele

    How does a fiction writer build one of the most influential tech publications on the planet – by publishing 15,000-word essays for an audience that everyone says has no time to read? Mario Gabriele, founder of The Generalist (163K+ subscribers, $22/month), broke every conventional rule of media and won. In this episode, Joe and Shane sit down with Mario to steal the secrets behind his unlikely media empire – from his origin story as a VC associate writing fiction before work every morning, to his counterintuitive bet on depth over speed, to why he thinks it’s extremely good to quit things. Guest links: The Generalist: https://www.generalist.com/ Mario on X: https://twitter.com/mariogabriele Mario on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariogabriele/ (00:00) How long should a newsletter be? (03:47) Mario Gabriele joins the show (13:36) The origin story: “the right amount of delusional” (20:04) The under-competed part of the attention stack (28:07) Joe’s $70K bet on The Generalist (38:30) Illogical bets on depth: what’s actually worked (43:31) Can AI replace long-form writers? (49:22) “It’s extremely good to quit things”

    52 min
  7. The Poet Laureate of Corporate America

    Mar 31

    The Poet Laureate of Corporate America

    How does a poet get corporations like Nike, Google, and Toyota to pay $50,000+ per performance? Grammy-nominated spoken word artist Sekou Andrews created "Poetic Voice" — a groundbreaking fusion of spoken word poetry and keynote speaking that has made him what Forbes calls "the de facto poet laureate of corporate America." In this episode of The Art of the Zag, Sekou tells us how a 5th grade teacher in South Central LA accidentally fell in love with poetry, won back-to-back National Slam Poetry championships, and built a seven-figure business on what he calls "a dead art form you hated in high school." He also breaks down why corporations chronically undervalue art and storytelling — and why that's about to change in the age of AI. ABOUT SEKOU ANDREWS: Website: https://sekouandrews.com Stage Might Training: https://getstagemight.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sekou KOUMAMI album: Available on all streaming platforms WSB profile: https://www.wsb.com/speakers/sekou-andrews/ (00:00) Intro (02:50) Sekou Andrews joins the show (05:00) How hip-hop led to spoken word (07:00) The moment he knew he could do this (08:00) Becoming a "full-time mermaid" (09:50) Quitting teaching (11:00) Making rent in CD sales (12:00) The echoes of confirmation (12:52) How Shane discovered Sekou (14:42) The decade of survival (19:00) The Nike analyst meeting (22:30) The "Consumer 2.0" performance (26:00) Poetry has business value (29:00) Information over inspiration (33:08) The neuroscience of storytelling (35:50) Storytelling is collecting dust (37:00) "Get rid of the word poetry" (42:00) Art as the vehicle for content (43:00) The one thing AI can't touch (48:00) Singer vs. rapper vs. poet (51:00) AI wants to give us goosebumps (53:51) Upgrade your human operating system (57:30) The stage collapse story (58:53) Closing Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

    1h 2m
  8. 62% of Americans use this app. It secretly sabotages trust.

    Mar 17

    62% of Americans use this app. It secretly sabotages trust.

    Why don't we trust the Terminator? He's strong, smart, and always keeps his word — but nobody would trust him. The answer reveals the hidden psychology of trust that most people never think about. In this episode, Joe Lazer and Shane Snow sit down with Dr. F. David Schoorman, a Purdue University professor whose research on trust has been cited over 50,000 times — including what's widely considered the most influential psychology paper of the 1990s. His new research flips the conventional wisdom on trust: it's often the person doing the trusting, not the person being trusted, who destroys the relationship. We explore why Americans trust strangers far more than any other culture, why your boss probably trusts you more than you trust them, how 85% of Gen Z students track each other's locations without realizing what it signals, and why Tiger Woods' PR team understood the psychology of betrayal better than most psychologists. Key topics: The three pillars of trust — and the hidden one most people miss The Terminator Test: Shane's framework for why we trust (or don't) Why location-sharing apps may be destroying your relationships How the "trustor" — the person doing the trusting — often sabotages trust Why Americans are the most trusting culture in the world The trust gap between bosses and employees How remote work created a trust vacuum Why you should never talk about business in a first meeting Excessive transparency as a "control system" that kills trust The pandemic generation's trust crisis Can trust be repaired after betrayal? A preview of Dr. Schoorman's next research The Tiger Woods case study: reframing betrayal as an ability problem About our guest: Dr. F. David Schoorman is a Professor of Organizational Behavior and Human Resource Management at Purdue University's Daniels School of Business. He received the Academy of Management's "Distinguished Educator" career award in 2007. His foundational 1995 paper "An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (with Mayer and Davis) was recognized as the most influential article published in the Academy of Management Review in the 1990s. Research discussed in this episode: "An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust" (Mayer, Davis, Schoorman, 1995): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.1995.9508080335 "What We Do While Waiting: The Experience of Vulnerability in Trusting Relationships" (Ballinger, Schoorman, Sharma, 2024): https://journals.aom.org/doi/abs/10.5465/amr.2022.0080 "An Integrative Model of Organizational Trust: Past, Present, and Future" (Schoorman, Mayer, Davis, 2007): https://journals.aom.org/doi/10.5465/amr.2007.24348410 Chapters: (00:00) Joe and Shane's trust confessions (01:09) The Terminator Test for trust (03:28) The hidden factor: benevolence (06:37) Dr. David Schoorman joins (07:32) Why emotion was left out of trust research (08:23) The trustor problem explained (09:59) Why Americans trust strangers more (11:15) The laptop-in-a-cafe test (12:18) Why your boss trusts you more (14:07) Should bosses share their story? (14:56) "Multiply the exchanges" (15:28) Has remote work broken trust? (17:43) Virtual teams need in-person time (18:09) Joe's A-Team Portugal offsite story (20:48) Never talk business in meeting one (21:13) ChatGPT emails erode connection (21:32) The pandemic generation's crisis (23:05) 85% of Gen Z track each other (24:18) "You're saying I don't trust you" (25:50) Deleting the tracking app worked (26:34) Workplace surveillance: Mad Men vs now (27:27) Don't use employee monitoring tools (29:19) How boss anxiety sabotages trust (30:03) Prevention vs. promotion focus (31:18) Transparency has a tipping point (32:19) "Transparency becomes control" (33:50) Toddler parenting as management (35:27) Can trust be repaired after betrayal? (37:12) "You're making up the story" (38:02) The Tiger Woods case study Listen and subscribe: Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2230ldzxpy4ghDz2WXCXJk Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-art-of-the-zag/id1873441245 Substack: https://storytellingedge.substack.com/podcast The Art of the Zag is the podcast about people who win big by zagging when everyone else is zigging. Hosted by Joe Lazer (bestselling author of The Storytelling Edge and Super Skill) and Shane Snow (bestselling author of Smartcuts and Dream Teams). Get full access to The Storytelling Edge at storytellingedge.substack.com/subscribe

    40 min
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5
out of 5
3 Ratings

About

Best-selling authors and long-time buddies Shane Snow and Joe Lazer explore how to win by zagging when everyone else is zigging—in business and in life. Learn breakthrough strategies for building trust, telling better stories, and winning the AI Age from the world's most innovative founders, authors, and icons. Have an idea for a guest? Email guest@joelazer.com. storytellingedge.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    Joe Lazer and Shane Snow
  • Years Active
    2K
  • Episodes
    14
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Joe Lazer
  • Show Website
    The Art of the Zag

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