The Serving Second Podcast

Toussaint Williams, PhD
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The Serving Second Podcast with Dr. Toussaint Williams celebrates the unsung heroes of leadership—the associates, assistants, vice presidents, and right-hand leaders who make vision possible from the second chair. Not everyone wears the top title, but every leader carries weight. Through biblical insight, leadership lessons, and practical takeaways, discover how to win—even when you come in second. Subscribe and be equipped to lead with confidence, clarity, and courage.

  1. Sep 10

    Be Where Your Feet Are - E41

    Be Where Your Feet AreToussaint explores a simple but challenging idea: stop mentally living in the next season and fully engage the one you are in now. He argues that ambition is healthy, but absence is dangerous, because the current assignment is often where leadership, skill, and character are developed. The episode is a practical reminder that where you are today is shaping who you will become next. Timestamps00:18 - The danger of mentally leaving your current season 00:50 - Watching someone else get the opportunity you wanted 01:21 - The core message: be where your feet are 01:52 - Ambition is fine, but absence is dangerous 02:46 - Wanting to go somewhere without losing investment now 03:16 - Current assignments are training rooms, not waiting rooms 03:46 - An early ministry story about comparison and visibility 04:33 - Leaving for a smaller context that looked like a step back 05:15 - How the smaller setting developed hidden gifts 05:42 - You may not be sent backward—you may be being developed 06:14 - The better question: What am I supposed to be learning here? 06:43 - Serving second means maximizing what you already have 07:11 - Five ways to contribute in your current seat 07:53 - The cost of constantly looking at what is next 08:51 - Obsession with the next opportunity can leave you unprepared 09:14 - Stop asking for more and start using what you have 09:46 - The danger of comparing your reality to someone else’s announcement 10:29 - Why comparison hides the pressure behind promotions 11:11 - Question one: What can I learn from here? 11:41 - Question two: What can I contribute here? 12:09 - Question three: What can I become here? 12:32 - Development often looks unimpressive while it is happening 12:58 - It may be time to transition, but while you are here, be here 13:27 - Don’t give next season’s energy to today’s assignment 13:57 - Master this seat and leave it better 14:10 - Where your feet are is where you serve, learn, grow, and add value 14:38 - Final charge to serve well right where you are 15:08 - Closing reminder to subscribe and share Notable quotes“The fastest way to waste your current season is to spend it mentally living in the next one.”“Ambition says, ‘I want to go somewhere.’ Absence says, ‘I want to go somewhere, I’m no longer fully invested right here.’”“Where your feet are is where you serve. Where your feet are is where you learn.”Action itemsIdentify one thing your current season is teaching you about leadership, people, communication, conflict, patience, execution, or yourself.Name one concrete way you can add value where you are right now.Decide what you need to become in this season—more disciplined, prepared, emotionally mature, strategic, or dependable.Stop feeding your future opportunity with energy that belongs to today’s assignment.Look for one hidden skill or responsibility you can strengthen before your next transition.

    Be Where Your Feet Are - E41

  2. Sep 4

    You're Not Starting Over - E40

    Have you ever taken a break, lost your rhythm, or looked around and felt like everyone else was moving forward while you were standing still? After being away from the Serving Second Podcast for two weeks, I felt that pressure myself. I needed to catch up. I had lost momentum. Maybe I was falling behind. Then I realized something: You may be starting again, but you’re not starting over. You’re starting with experience. In this episode, I talk about what happens when life interrupts our plans and how to move forward without allowing guilt, comparison, or imaginary timelines to control us. Sometimes the goal isn’t to get back to where you were. The better question is: What do I know now that should change how I move forward? In this episode:Why trying to “catch up” can actually keep you stuckThe difference between movement and real progressHow interruptions can reveal what you were moving too fast to seeWhy evaluated experience is more valuable than experience aloneThe “pregame” principle from How to Be a Scottie in a Michael Jordan WorldWhy you should stop trying to recreate an old rhythmHow one small action can restart momentumWhy grace for your journey doesn’t remove responsibilityHow to maximize the gifts God has given you right where you areI also share a personal lesson from my fitness journey, a conversation with my therapist that challenged how I viewed progress, and the simple action of setting up a camera that helped me finally get moving again. This Week’s Serving Second ChallengeIdentify ONE thing in front of you that you know it’s time to move on. One assignment. One relationship. One responsibility. One opportunity. Write it down and ask: “What would it look like for me to serve this opportunity with excellence?” Then take the next step. You don’t regain momentum by obsessing over momentum. You regain momentum by doing the next thing well. If this episode encouraged you, LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, and SHARE it with someone who feels like they’ve fallen behind. Then leave a comment: What is the ONE thing you’re starting again? Remember: You’re not starting over. You’re starting from experience. Now serve well right where you are. #ServingSecond #Leadership #YoureNotBehind #PersonalGrowth #LeadershipDevelopment #StartAgain #Motivation #Purpose #Excellence #DrToussaintWilliams

    You're Not Starting Over - E40

  3. Aug 14

    Journal Your Journey - E39

    This solo episode to speaks directly to anyone serving in a season they did not choose. It names the tension of being faithful and frustrated at the same time, then reframes journaling as a tool for tracking God’s work, spotting patterns, and keeping perspective. Key topics You have permission to admit disappointment instead of pretending serving second never hurts.You can be faithful and frustrated at the same time, and still serve with excellence.Challenge: Serve anyway.Journaling helps you capture the season before you understand it, not after.He reflects on journals dating back to 1999 and explains how old entries now reveal growth, prayers answered, and seasons that only made sense later.He says journaling shows four things clearly: patterns, progress, providence, and perspective.He uses personal examples, including marriage, parenting, career transitions, and the launch of the Serving Second Podcast, to show how painful seasons often become meaningful later.He warns against obsessing over the next assignment so much that you miss the value of the current one.He closes with a practical writing challenge: take five minutes, date the entry, write what you feel, what you’re praying about, and what you’re hoping happens next.He emphasizes that your current chapter is not your whole story.Timestamps00:00 - Permission to skip this chapter if you need to 03:06 - Serving second does not mean pretending 04:15 - Serve anyway and write the season down 05:44 - Why decades of journals became valuable 08:33 - Be honest on the page about anger, jealousy, and disappointment 11:04 - Journals should also record victories and unexpected wins 12:02 - Why pain is easier to remember than progress 14:01 - A 2003 journal entry about marriage and “He’s Preparing Me” 16:31 - Looking back, what felt random was actually guidance 17:48 - The younger you can only see one day at a time 19:15 - A chapter is not the whole story 20:04 - Being pushed out can develop hidden gifts 21:22 - Don’t get so focused on your next assignment that you miss this one 22:48 - Four things journaling reveals: patterns, progress, providence, perspective 24:03 - When repeated frustration points to something deeper 25:23 - Slow growth, real receipts, and visible maturity 26:40 - Seeing God’s fingerprints in old entries 27:53 - How the podcast began in a season of frustration 29:42 - What God planted in pain becomes clear later 30:19 - Why perspective shrinks huge moments down to size 31:44 - Living in the middle of a journal entry 33:23 - Serve anyway, even if you believe you should be leading 34:34 - Don’t let disappointment in your position neglect your assignment 35:47 - Not every hard journal entry ends happily, but growth is still real 37:57 - Journaling as proof that you are still moving 39:12 - The writing challenge: date it, name it, write it 40:35 - Live, serve, work, and love your people while you journal 42:03 - Why the podcast exists: years of honest writing 42:30 - Detour, rejection, and waiting can all be development 46:40 - Five minutes to write where you are right now 48:27 - Final charge: serve anyway, write your journey, trust God ACTION ITEMS Take five minutes today and write where you are right now.Date the entry and include the time.Write honestly about what hurt, what you feared, and what you are praying for.Record wins, breakthroughs, unexpected calls, and signs of progress too.If needed, use a notebook, binder, or notes app, but get it written down.Share the episode with someone who is struggling in a current season of service.

    Journal Your Journey - E39

  4. Jul 30

    Surrounded! - What do I do now? E-38

    What Do I Do Now?You went to bed thinking everything was fine. You woke up surrounded. In this solo episode, Dr. Toussaint Williams walks through 2 Kings 6, the story of Elisha's unnamed servant, to answer the question every second-chair leader eventually asks out loud: what am I supposed to do now? This week Toussaint steps away from the interview chair for a solo teaching episode built around one of the most overlooked figures in scripture, the unnamed servant who serves the prophet Elisha. When a Syrian army surrounds the city hunting for Elisha, the servant is the first one to see it and the first one to panic. Toussaint uses that moment to unpack what it feels like to carry pressure you did not create, a reality every second-chair leader knows well. He also opens up about a difficult season his own family has walked through over the past few months, and the leadership lessons he is still working through in real time. The episode closes with a practical three-step framework for leading through a crisis without losing your footing. In This EpisodeWhy the story of an unnamed servant in 2 Kings 6 says more to second-chair leaders than the story of the prophet doesWhat it means to carry pressure you did not create and did not ask forA personal update on a season of family challenge Toussaint and his wife have been navigatingThe difference between fear knocking on the door and fear getting a seat at the decision-making tableWhy Elisha's first prayer was not for the problem to disappear, but for eyes to see clearlyA three-step framework for leading through a crisis: see clearly, seek perspective, move without panicTimestamps0:00 - The moment everything changes overnight1:49 - The story behind the story: 2 Kings 6 and the unnamed servant3:32 - The international crisis: the king of Syria hunts down Elisha6:37 - The servant wakes up surrounded9:47 - The most honest question in scripture: "What are we going to do?"10:23 - Toussaint's personal story: a season of major family challenges14:18 - What Elisha does not do, and why it matters16:36 - Fear counts what is against you. Faith remembers who is for you.19:04 - Elisha's prayer: "Open his eyes that he may see"21:03 - The mountain was already full of horses and chariots of fire22:16 - Calm is contagious. So is panic.24:13 - The ending nobody expects: grace over violence26:22 - Three steps for when you feel surrounded28:37 - Closing encouragementThe Framework: When You Feel SurroundedSee clearly. Don't exaggerate the problem. Don't minimize it either. Call it what it is.Seek perspective. Pause and pray. Invite wise counsel. Ask yourself what you might not be seeing right now.Move without panic. Not without caution, not without prayer, but without panic. Take the next faithful step, then trust God with the one after that.Connect with Dr. Toussaint WilliamsServing Second Podcast, helping leaders maximize the gifts in their hands and master the seat they currently occupy. Website: servingsecond.com If this episode met you where you are, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a second-chair leader who needs to hear it this week.

    Surrounded! - What do I do now? E-38

  5. Jul 24

    He Left Work at 5 PM Every Day for 34 Years and Still Got Promoted - E37

    Your boss walks the floor at 5:15 checking who's still at their desk. Kevin Wayne Johnson made sure his chair was already empty, every single day, for over three decades in federal government leadership. He still made director. Here's how leading from the second chair taught him that presence at home builds the same trust presence at work does. Episode SummaryKevin Wayne Johnson spent 34 years in federal acquisition and contract management, rising to a director-level role overseeing teams in New York, Los Angeles, and London. He is also the author or co-author of 24 books on faith, leadership, and the writing craft, and he leads the Johnson Leadership Group today. In this episode, Kevin traces his leadership foundation back to fatherhood, specifically to a father who served in Vietnam and stayed connected through recorded voice tapes mailed home. That model of presence became the standard Kevin held himself to with his own two hour daily commute and his own kids. He explains the choice he made to leave work at 5 PM without exception, why his leadership earned him the room to do it, and how that same discipline shaped his writing career. This conversation is for the leader who feels like showing up for family and showing up for the mission are in competition. Kevin's story is proof they are not. What You'll LearnWhy presence, not perfection, is the trait that shapes the next generation of leadersHow to set a hard boundary at work without losing your boss's trust or your next promotionWhat earns you the credibility to protect your personal life when everyone else is staying lateHow to build a writing or coaching practice around your life instead of sacrificing your life for itThe mindset shift from doing impressive work to making a positive impact on the people around youTimestamps00:00 Welcome to Kevin Wayne Johnson 00:21 The one thing that shaped his leadership: fatherhood 01:07 What his own father modeled growing up 03:12 Voice tapes from Vietnam and why presence matters to a child 04:23 The difference in proximity: his commute versus his father's absence 06:31 Telling his bosses that family comes first 08:08 Earning the trust to leave at 5 PM every day 09:47 What his director-level role actually involved 11:41 From federal career to 24 published books 14:44 Why he never pigeonholes his writing schedule 15:13 Making a positive impact without needing the spotlight 16:34 Where to find Kevin and the Johnson Leadership Group Connect with Kevin Wayne JohnsonWebsite: https://www.thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com Email: kevin@thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com About the HostDr. Toussaint Williams is a pastor, author, and leadership consultant, and the host of the Serving Second Podcast, the show for the leaders behind the leaders. Second-chair leadership is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership. Keywordsleadership development, second-chair leadership, leading from the second chair, work life balance for leaders, federal government leadership, executive leadership, influence without authority, faith-based leadership, associate pastor leadership, Serving Second Podcast

    He Left Work at 5 PM Every Day for 34 Years and Still Got Promoted - E37

  6. Jul 10

    Stop Waiting for Your Turn: The Real Meaning of Serving Second - E36

    What if the seat you are waiting to leave is the very place where your leadership is being developed? In this special solo episode, Toussaint resets and reintroduces the heart of Serving Second. After months of conversations with high-performing leaders, he recognized that the movement had been framed too narrowly. Serving Second is not about accepting a lesser position, becoming comfortable in the background, or waiting for your turn to lead. It is about maximizing your gifts, mastering your current assignment, and creating first-place outcomes from whatever seat you occupy. Drawing from the stories of Jonathan and David, Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan, and CJ Quinney and Eric Thomas, Dr. Williams explores the security required to use your abilities to strengthen someone else. These leaders did not serve second because they lacked talent. They chose to leverage their talent for a mission bigger than personal recognition. Dr. Williams also shares his own struggle with being overlooked for positions he believed should have been his. That disappointment forced him to confront a difficult question: Was he genuinely serving the mission, or was he quietly waiting to be chosen? You will learn the difference between position and posture, service and negotiation, ambition and insecurity, and excellence and performance. You will also discover the four pursuits every leader must develop: character, competence, contribution, and calling. Serving Second is a challenge to become greater in your stewardship, discipline, service, and impact. In this episode: Why Serving Second needed a resetHow titles distort our understanding of leadershipThe difference between serving and waitingWhy disappointment exposes where your identity is rootedHow position differs from postureWhy quiet gifts still carry tremendous valueThe four pursuits of extraordinary stewardshipWhy the greatest leaders make everyone around them betterKey takeaway: You are not powerless because you do not have the title you want. Your opportunity is already here. Your gifts are already enough. Your assignment has already begun. Chapters: 00:16 – The pain of being misunderstood 01:30 – Where Serving Second missed the mark 03:50 – A reset for the movement 05:26 – The dangerous way we measure leadership 06:34 – Stop waiting for a better seat 08:04 – Watching Eric Thomas’s journey 10:35 – Why meeting CJ Quinney mattered 13:00 – Choosing to put someone else first 15:00 – Jonathan’s rightful claim to the throne 17:30 – Strengthening the person God selected 19:32 – Serving Second begins inside you 20:00 – When the position you expected never comes 21:39 – Proximity is not a promise 22:44 – Are you serving or waiting? 24:43 – When excellence becomes a bargaining chip 25:28 – Position versus posture 27:10 – Service, performance, and stewardship 28:17 – Learning to value quiet gifts 30:02 – Stewarding disappointment 31:18 – Becoming valuable right now 33:34 – The new direction of Serving Second 34:40 – Pursuit one: Character 35:58 – Pursuit two: Competence 37:05 – Pursuit three: Contribution 38:05 – Pursuit four: Calling Reflection questions: Am I faithfully serving, or am I quietly waiting to be chosen?Have I confused proximity to a position with a promise of promotion?What gift comes naturally to me that I may be undervaluing? Subscribe to the Serving Second Podcast and share it with someone whose contribution deserves to be recognized. Maximize your gifts. Multiply your impact. Keep Serving Second.

  7. Jul 2

    He Built Companies, Then Realized He Was the Problem - E35

    Servant leadership is not soft leadership. It may be the most strategic way to get real results. In this episode Toussaint sits down with Kurt Uhlir for a direct conversation about leadership, humility, business outcomes, and the hard personal work required to become the kind of leader people can trust. Kurt started his first businesses at 14 years old. One was a lawn care company that grew so quickly he had friends and even adults working for him. Early on, he learned how to sell, organize systems, and produce results. But later, he had to face a painful truth. He was getting results, but he was not leading well. Kurt shares the moment his mentor and his mother both told him the truth he did not want to hear. He had become a toxic authoritative leader. He was demanding outcomes, but creating fear. He was pushing people, but not truly developing them. He was leading in a way that caused bad information to stay hidden and good information to be filtered. That wake-up call changed the way he viewed leadership. This episode is not just about being nicer at work. Kurt makes the business case for servant leadership. He explains why fear-based leadership slows organizations down, why leaders miss critical information when people are afraid to speak honestly, and why serving people well can improve performance, trust, retention, and decision-making. Dr. Williams and Kurt also discuss the power of being a second-chair leader, operator, and “kingmaker.” Kurt explains why he finds deep fulfillment in helping other leaders succeed instead of always trying to sit in the top chair himself. He also talks about what it takes to support a leader well, ask better questions, understand organizational outcomes, and serve the whole person, not just the employee. One of the strongest moments in the conversation is Kurt’s reminder that leaders must create space for honest feedback. If people cannot tell you where you are wrong, your organization will eventually pay for it. Healthy conflict is not a threat to leadership. It is one of the ways leadership gets better. This conversation is for executives, entrepreneurs, ministry leaders, second-chair leaders, operators, and anyone who wants to lead with both excellence and humility. In this episode: • Why early success can hide unhealthy leadership patterns • How Kurt moved from toxic authority to servant leadership • Why fear-based cultures block honest information • How servant leadership creates better business outcomes • Why leaders must care about the whole person • What it means to be a kingmaker or queen maker • How second-chair leaders can bring value without chasing the spotlight • Why healthy conflict must be modeled, not just talked about Leadership Challenge: Ask yourself, “What am I wrong about right now that I think I’m right about?” Then ask someone on your team, “What am I missing that I need to know?” Do not defend yourself. Do not explain it away. Ask clarifying questions. Listen. Learn. Then lead better. Guest: Kurt Uhlir Website: kurtuhlir.com About Serving Second: Toussaint helps leaders maximize the gifts they already have in the seat they currently occupy. Second-chair leadership is not lesser leadership. It is strategic leadership. When you serve with clarity, excellence, humility, and skill, you can create first-place outcomes from wherever you lead. Subscribe for more conversations on servant leadership, second-chair leadership, business leadership, ministry leadership, personal growth, and leading well from wherever you are. #ServingSecond #SecondChairLeadership #LeadershipDevelopment #BusinessLeadership #ChristianLeadership #ExecutiveLeadership #TeamLeadership #ToussaintWilliams

  8. Jun 25

    The Science of Yes! - E34

    The Science of Ethical Persuasion Second-chair leaders don't always have the final say — but the most effective ones know how to influence without authority. In this episode, Dr. Toussaint Williams sits down with ethical persuasion expert and keynote speaker Patrick van der Burght (Melbourne, Australia) to unpack the science behind ethical influence and what it means for leaders in every sector. 🎯 What You'll Learn in This Episode: Why persuasion is NOT manipulation — and why the difference matters for leadersHow Dr. Robert Cialdini's 7 Principles of Influence apply to real-world leadershipThe "Unity" principle and why co-creation makes teams more loyal and forgivingHow loss language outperforms gain language when motivating behaviorA real case study: how one question boosted patient case acceptance by 33.5% across four dental clinicsWhy knowledge alone isn't power — and what application skill actually looks like⏱️ Timestamps: 00:00 — Welcome & Introduction02:09 — What is ethical persuasion?04:13 — Patrick's origin story: scuba diving, cassette tapes & Dr. Cialdini13:00 — Cialdini's 7 Principles of Influence explained45:00 — Real-world application for second-chair leaders53:31 — Consistency & Scarcity principles unpacked59:10 — One principle leaders can apply THIS week👤 About the Guest: Patrick van der Burght is an ethical persuasion trainer, keynote speaker, and host of the Ethical Persuasion Unlocked podcast, based in Melbourne, Australia. He is a certified expert in the science of influence rooted in the research of Dr. Robert Cialdini. 📌 Website: ethicalpersuasion.com.au 🎙️ Podcast: Ethical Persuasion Unlocked (start from Episode 1) 📘 Free eBook + Email Challenge: ethicalpersuasion.com.au/free 🎙️ About the Serving Second Podcast: Hosted by Dr. Toussaint Williams — pastor, author, and executive leader — the Serving Second Podcast equips second-chair leaders to create first-place outcomes from wherever they serve. 🌐 servingsecond.com | 📺 YouTube: youtube.com/@servingsecond #ServingSecond #EthicalPersuasion #LeadershipPodcast #InfluenceScience #SecondChairLeadership #Cialdini #LeadershipDevelopment

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About

The Serving Second Podcast with Dr. Toussaint Williams celebrates the unsung heroes of leadership—the associates, assistants, vice presidents, and right-hand leaders who make vision possible from the second chair. Not everyone wears the top title, but every leader carries weight. Through biblical insight, leadership lessons, and practical takeaways, discover how to win—even when you come in second. Subscribe and be equipped to lead with confidence, clarity, and courage.

Information

  • Creator
    Toussaint Williams, PhD
  • Years Active
    2026
  • Episodes
    40
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Toussaint Williams, PhD
  • Show Website
    The Serving Second Podcast

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