I Don't Know You

Matt Heisler
  • 0.0 (0)
  • Religion & Spirituality
  • Updated Weekly

A series of honest conversations, hosted by Matt Heisler, on exploring creativity and leadership within the faith based non-profit world as he seeks to ask the questions that help him understand his own journey in light of the perspectives and experiences his share. mattheisler.substack.com

  1. Jul 22

    How Saying Yes to Open Doors Led Arian Ghiacy from a Filing Cabinet to Nearly Two Decades in Nonprofit Leadership

    Description Today I’m joined by Arian Ghiacy. He grew up in a single-parent home in a rough part of Anaheim, and from a young age he clung to the idea that even though his earthly father had failed him, he had a Heavenly Father who never would. That conviction ends up threading through almost every decision in his life — a part-time bookstore job at Insight for Living, a season writing thank-you letters at Orange County Rescue Mission, an unplanned four-year run at an investment firm through the 2008 crash, and — almost by accident — becoming the interim pastor of a small Afghan Christian church in LA while working full-time in the corporate world. We talk about what it actually looks like to hear God’s voice at every turn of a career that never really had a five-year plan attached to it. Arian walks through building a development department and volunteer program from the ground up at Friendly Center over 13 years, why he believes relationships — not tactics — are what actually move fundraising, and what it cost him to keep saying yes to open doors while also building a marriage and raising kids. He also gets honest about the season he got caught up chasing certifications and credentials, and the question from his pastor that reframed his whole relationship to ambition. We close on his new role as Director of Advancement at a classical school, and what it means to finally stop trying to plan his own life. Most of the doors that shape your life don’t look like much when you’re standing in front of them — looking back is often the only way you ever really see how God was driving the whole time. Enjoy. 10 Lessons from Arian 1. A failed earthly father doesn’t disqualify you from a faithful Heavenly one. Arian’s story starts with a wound that could have become a lifelong excuse: a dad who wasn’t there in the way a father is meant to be. But instead of letting that absence define him, he let it drive him toward God — not as a concept, but as Father. That single shift becomes a thread through everything else in his life: the courage to step into responsibility early, the ability to keep showing up without needing perfect conditions, and the steady belief that he isn’t ultimately orphaned in the world. A lot of people spend years trying to “outwork” a father wound. Arian did something rarer: he let it become the place where trust in God got forged. (2:00–6:00) 2. God’s leading is usually only visible in hindsight. Over and over, Arian describes a life that didn’t feel like a master plan while it was happening. It felt like doors opening, seasons changing, and him doing the next faithful thing without knowing what it would add up to. Only later could he see the through-line — how one strange job, one unexpected relationship, one “this will be temporary” season became the training ground for what came next. The lesson isn’t “you should be more strategic.” It’s almost the opposite: don’t demand clarity as the price of obedience. God rarely gives you the full map — but He does give enough light for the next step. (19:00–24:00, 1:08:00) 3. Say yes to the small, unglamorous door in front of you. Arian’s defining opportunities didn’t arrive with a spotlight. They looked like filing cabinets, entry-level tasks, weird scheduling breaks, and roles that sounded unimpressive on paper. But he treated the “small” thing in front of him as meaningful, and that posture kept positioning him for bigger responsibility. There’s a quiet challenge here for anyone waiting for their calling to feel epic: sometimes God hides the next chapter inside a task you’d be tempted to dismiss. Humility and faithfulness with the small door is often the only way you ever get to the bigger one. (6:00–14:00) 4. Discernment grows out of relationship with God, not a formula. When you listen to Arian talk about guidance, he isn’t describing a technique — he’s describing a life with God. “The more you pray and lean into Him, the easier it becomes to recognize those moments.” That’s not a hack; it’s a long obedience. What makes his decisions compelling isn’t that he always knew the perfect answer. It’s that he kept returning to prayer, wise counsel, and a willingness to be led — even when it meant changing direction. If you want clarity, the most practical thing you can do isn’t build a decision spreadsheet. It’s deepen the relationship that produces discernment in the first place. (24:00–35:00) 5. Relationships outperform tactics in fundraising — and in life. Arian has been close enough to development work to see the temptation: lean on tactics because they’re measurable and repeatable. But his conviction is simple: donors don’t give because you found the perfect angle — they give because they trust you, they trust the mission, and they feel personally connected to the story. Strategy matters, but it can’t substitute for credibility and care. That’s true in fundraising, and it’s true in almost every arena: the long-term wins usually come from trust built slowly, not cleverness deployed quickly. (50:00–54:00) 6. Servant leadership means being willing to stay in the background. Arian keeps circling back to a kind of leadership that doesn’t need attention to feel valuable. He talks about serving, supporting, and building — doing work that’s essential but not flashy. In a world that trains us to measure leadership by visibility, his posture is a rebuke: you can carry real influence without the stage. Servant leadership doesn’t mean you have no conviction or direction — it means you’re more committed to the mission than to being seen. And in development and ministry work especially, the person who can lead from the background is often the person who can sustain the work for the long haul. (54:00–1:00:00) 7. Knowing when a season is over matters as much as knowing when to say yes. Most people can relate to the fear of starting something new. Fewer people have the courage to admit when a season has done its work and it’s time to release it. Arian’s story includes several closures that weren’t driven by burnout or disaster — just an internal sense that the assignment was complete. That’s wisdom: being faithful to a season without turning it into an identity. Sometimes staying too long is its own form of disobedience. The holy work is learning to recognize not only the doors God opens, but the doors He’s quietly asking you to walk away from. (13:00–19:00, 24:00–35:00) 8. Credentials and career-climbing can crowd out contentment. One of the sharpest moments in the conversation is that pastor’s question: “Have you needed those things for God to lead you through all of your previous doors?” It’s a gentle but devastating dismantling of the assumption that the next step requires a new badge. Arian isn’t anti-learning; he’s anti-striving. The point is that ambition can disguise itself as stewardship — and suddenly you’re collecting credentials to quiet insecurity, not to serve people better. The reframe is freeing: if God has been faithful to lead you so far, you don’t need to manufacture legitimacy. You need to keep listening and keep showing up. (1:04:00) 9. Trust has to be paired with patience. Arian’s life is a slow story. Not because nothing happened — but because growth, clarity, and answered prayers often took years to come into focus. He keeps pointing out that God’s timing rarely matches our urgency, and that the fruit of a season is often invisible while you’re in it. Patience isn’t passive; it’s active endurance — continuing to do the next right thing while you wait for God to make sense of it. Trust without patience turns into anxiety. Patience without trust turns into resignation. Together, they form a kind of steady faith that can survive long seasons of “not yet.” (1:08:00) 10. Parenting becomes a mirror for your own relationship with God. That pants story is funny because it’s so human — and it lands because it’s so true. Parenting puts you face to face with your own limits: how quickly you get frustrated, how hard it is to release control, how often love gets tested by repetition. And in that pressure, you start seeing yourself in your child — and then seeing God with you in the same frame. Matt’s point isn’t that parenting makes you holy overnight. It’s that it reveals what’s already in you, and it gives you constant opportunities to practice patience, gentleness, and surrender. If you want a daily discipleship lab, you don’t have to go looking for one — it’s already in your house. (1:13:00) Get full access to Matt Heisler at mattheisler.substack.com/subscribe

  2. Jul 2

    How Making A Documentary Taught Will Tober to Let God Define What Success Looks Like

    Description Will Tober is a Jesus follower, husband, and father whose faith shapes the way he works. His experience spans things like producing the documentary The Drop Box, board member at the Pregnancy Resource Center, and co-founder of 100 Companies That Care. In this conversation, we get into how a random LA Times article led a college kid to South Korea to film a story that ended up changing his life, how that film planted a seed for everything he’s built since in the nonprofit world, and what it actually looks like to be a driven man trying to hold family, faith, career, and calling all at once. Enjoy. Lessons From Will 1. Draw Hard Lines Around What Matters Will is home by 5:30pm. Non-negotiable. He’s learned to maximize the hours he gives to work so he can be fully present for everything else. He acknowledges that in commercial real estate, more hours usually means more money — and he’s made peace with leaving something on the table. Faith makes that easier. The practical boundary is just the output of a deeper conviction about what actually matters. (10:08) 2. Community Isn’t About Having Answers — It’s About Not Being Alone One of the most honest moments in the conversation is when Will talks about how community doesn’t usually hand you solutions. It just reminds you that you’re not the only one who doesn’t have this figured out. We know rationally that parenting and marriage and career and faith have challenged every generation before us — and yet it still feels uniquely impossible when it’s yours. The right people around you don’t fix that. They just make it bearable enough to keep going. (13:56) 3. The Achiever’s Real Enemy Is Fear of Failure Will describes himself as someone who’s always had an achiever mentality — doing every sport, setting long-term goals earlier than most of his peers, carrying a sense of family legacy from grandparents who immigrated from Mexico and a dad who was the first in the family to go to college. But underneath all of it was a pretty intense fear of failure that prevented him from trying things where there was a real risk of not succeeding. He’s been working to break that his whole life. High ambition and deep fear of failure are not opposites — they often travel together. (19:18) 4. Less About What You’re Doing, More About Who You’re Becoming Will talks about work not primarily as a vehicle for income or even impact, but as a classroom. He’s passionate about commercial real estate, believes there’s good in it, and sees opportunities to build relationships and invest in the kingdom through it. But more than any of that, he believes a big piece of why God puts us in the work we’re in is to teach us things we couldn’t learn any other way. That framing changes everything about how you show up when the work is hard. (25:24) 5. Saying Yes Before You Know What It Costs Is the Whole Point When Brian pitched Will on flying to South Korea to make a documentary about a pastor who built a box to receive abandoned babies, Will had no film background and no idea what a producer even did. He said yes anyway. That yes eventually generated $10 million, led to a Netflix deal, and planted seeds for everything he’s built since in the nonprofit world. You don’t need to know what you’re doing. You just need to give your yes. (31:00) 6. God Redefines the Success Metrics The Drop Box got rejected by Sundance, Cannes, and every major film festival they submitted to. The only ones that accepted it were the Christian ones — which was ironic, because they’d set out to make something that would reach beyond the church. They ended up winning $150,000 at a San Antonio Christian film festival that doesn’t even exist anymore, which funded the rest of the film. Will says in its success, God was still refining them by stripping away all the cool factors. Sometimes the door you wanted to walk through isn’t the one that opens. (35:55) 7. The Real Impact Is Usually Hidden 100 Companies That Care has generated unexpected outcomes Will and his co-founder never planned for — nonprofits collaborating with each other, board members joining from the business community, volunteer events, and donations beyond what the format requires. One nonprofit donated their entire literacy curriculum to an orphanage they’d never heard of before meeting them at a quarterly meeting. Will says most of the results from saying yes to God are hidden — seeds you plant and never see sprout. You build anyway. (48:53) 8. On the Other Side of Every No Is a Yes Will’s not naturally good at saying no. But the reframe that’s helped him most is this: every no is a yes to something else. He’s not declining because he doesn’t believe in what he’s being asked to do — he’s saying yes to something that ranks higher. And in this season, that something is almost always family. That turns no from a refusal into a redirection. (52:35) 9. Fatherhood Is the Best Theology Class You’ll Ever Take Will says he lives his faith more than he could ever read it. Becoming a dad has given him a window into who God is that no amount of Bible study could fully open. When he’s frustrated with his son, he catches himself thinking about how God is equally patient with him. When he feels completely unequipped as a parent, he reminds himself that God is his son’s real Father. Fatherhood doesn’t just teach you about love — it teaches you what it feels like to be loved the way God loves you. (57:40) 10. Parenting Is the Biggest Obstacle and the Clearest Calling When asked what’s occupying the most headspace and keeping him up at night, Will doesn’t say business development or nonprofit growth. He says parenting. The tension between feeling utterly unequipped and desperately wanting to get it right. The fear of messing his kids up. The daily work of being comfortable in the uncomfortable. He’s not performing like he has it together — he’s just trying to show up and trust that presence counts for something. (58:36) Get full access to Matt Heisler at mattheisler.substack.com/subscribe

  3. Jun 24

    How a Monday Night Table and a Sunday Pot of Pasta Shaped Bruce Bartolomeo's Life of Service

    Description Bruce Bartolomeo is an entrepreneur, husband, father, and grandfather who spent over 30 years building a construction company before stepping away to devote himself fully to mentorship and service. He serves on the board of The Barnabas Group and several other non profits I loved getting to chat with Bruce and talk about the power of early mentorship, the cost of being more married to your business than your wife, the paradigm shift from owner to steward, and what it looks like to be an intentional father of daughters. I’m really excited to look at this conversation throughout the years and continue to glean from his wisdom. Enjoy! Lessons from Bruce 1. You can be starving for a mentor without knowing it. (00:43) Bruce opens with a line that landed hard: “I didn’t even know I needed a mentor when I was your age. I think I was internally starving for one.” A lot of men are running hard and empty at the same time, proving something to no one in particular. Naming the hunger is the first step to doing something about it. 2. Grit is an asset and a liability — it depends on what you’re married to. (01:02) Bruce was so driven to succeed that he was, in his words, “more married to his business than his wife.” The grit that built the company also cost his family. He’s honest about the resentment it created and the healing that had to follow. High capacity without self-awareness is just high-speed damage. 3. When your identity shifts from achievement to Christ, everything changes. (01:58) The turning point for Bruce wasn’t a program or a sermon — it was understanding, at a deep level, that his identity was in Christ and not in what he did or what others associated with him. Until that settled, nothing else could. Identity is the foundation. Everything else is built on top of it. 4. The right kind of leader doesn’t drive people — they follow. (05:54) Bruce references the image of Middle Eastern shepherds, where sheep follow the shepherd rather than being driven. Leadership built on trust, shared mission, and genuine care creates followership you don’t have to force. People move with leaders they believe in. That’s not management. That’s discipleship. 5. Some of the most formative mentors teach by contrast. (07:10) Bruce learned how not to lead from a difficult boss early in his career. He made a promise to himself: if I ever have employees, I will never treat them this way. Negative models are still models. The question is whether we let bad experiences make us bitter or better. 6. Trust extended to you builds confidence that lasts decades. (14:16) At 14, a gas station owner handed Bruce the keys and told him to close the place. He’d only been working there a few months. That act of trust — unexpected, unearned, extended freely — built something in Bruce that shaped how he led people for the rest of his life. When someone older trusts you and you don’t betray it, it frames how life works. 7. The best mentors love you back into line. (19:44) Lou Spinelli, Bruce’s cousin’s husband and the man he spent summers with on the farm, never got harsh when Bruce was heading in the wrong direction. He would have “loved him back into line” — honest conversation, relational warmth, no withdrawal of affection. That kind of correction is more powerful than punishment because the relationship is the accountability. 8. Stewardship changes everything. (28:54) In a Convene meeting, something clicked for Bruce. He heard men talking about “my business, my business, my business” — and then realized: we’re not owners. We’re temporary stewards who have to give an account. When you hold your work that way, you’re responsible not just to yourself and your employees, but to the One who gave you every tool, every talent, every opportunity. 9. He doesn’t always call the equipped — and that’s intentional. (31:07) Bruce says he believes God intentionally does not call the equipped, because equipped people tend to rely on their own capacity. The call that comes to someone with nothing is the one where God gets to say, “Watch me.” That’s where the excitement is. That’s the tip of the spear. 10. Your career is what you’re paid for. Your calling is what you’re made for. (34:02) Bruce did Bob Shank’s Priority Living Master’s Program from 2003–2006, still running his business at the time. That three-year journey broke something open. The distinction between career and calling wasn’t just semantic — it fundamentally reoriented how he thought about the years ahead of him. 11. The fruit of fatherhood shows up later than you plant it. (39:02) Bruce’s daughter in Virginia calls him nearly every day. His grandkids sleep over once a week. His daughters are the same hospitable, community-building people he and Becky modeled for years. None of that happens without the seeds planted quietly over decades. Presence compounds. 12. What you allow, you encourage. (01:10:30) Asked about a lesson from his greatest failures, Bruce’s answer was this: what you allow, you encourage. In business, in parenting, in relationships — avoidance of necessary confrontation isn’t kindness. It’s permission. Addressing what needs to be addressed, respectfully and early, is one of the most loving things a leader can do. 13. Your daughters need a father, not another friend. (01:07:28) Bruce is clear: they have enough friends. They need a father. That means meeting the boys, having the garage talk, setting expectations high, and being willing to be the bad guy so she doesn’t have to fight that battle alone. The goal isn’t their approval. It’s their safety and formation. 14. Apologize on your knees. (01:02:15) When Bruce was too harsh with one of his daughters, he didn’t let it pass. He went to her room, got down to her level, looked her in the eye, and said: “I’m sorry. You didn’t deserve that. Will you forgive me?” That teaches children that trust can be restored — and it models the kind of humility and ownership that forms the next generation. 15. Check your wake. (01:20:18) Bruce closes with a metaphor from water skiing: the condition of your wake depends on how you’re driving the boat. When you interact with someone, what’s the condition of your wake? Did you leave them better for having been with you — or did you make the water rough for them? It’s a simple question worth asking after every significant interaction. Get full access to Matt Heisler at mattheisler.substack.com/subscribe

  4. Jun 17

    How Living in an Unresolved Tension Shaped Russ Cline's Fatherhood

    DescriptionToday I'm joined by one of my mentors, Russ Cline — pastor, family man, and entrepreneur who has started multiple global organizations and currently leads The Barnabas Group and Leader Mundial, a global leadership movement that's spent nearly 20 years training and coaching leaders across the world.We get into one of the biggest questions in my life right now: how to build a sustainable, fruitful career while also being a present father — two things that can feel like they're constantly pulling against each other. Incredibly thankful that he's poured into me so much. Love getting to do life alongside him.Lessons From Russ(5:37) Know what you're great at — and let the rest be good enough. Russ learned early that chasing his weaknesses just pulled his strengths down into mediocrity. The hardest part wasn't identifying his strengths. It was admitting where he was weakest, and getting his ego out of the way long enough to ask for help there instead of pretending he didn't need it. (7:04) Exposure to a bigger world changes how small your own world looks. Moving to Ecuador at 11 gave Russ a posture he's carried his whole life — less critical of any one culture, more aware that no place has it all figured out. He later made the same choice for his own kids, moving the family back to Ecuador so they'd grow up understanding the world is bigger than Southern California. (12:43) Someone has to call out the leader in you before you can see it yourself. Russ didn't set out to be a leader. A high school mentor named Randy, and later a college mentor named Guy, both pushed him into formal leadership roles he wouldn't have chosen on his own. The pattern: someone sees it, names it, and stays close enough to walk through it with you. (17:48) The best mentorship gives freedom with an expectation attached. At 20, a mentor named Carolyn handed Russ a vehicle, a budget, and zero instructions for a summer of partnership-building in Mexico. The freedom wasn't a lack of expectation — it was trust. And because she trusted him, Russ held himself to a standard nobody had to enforce. (20:00) Leader Mundial wasn't built because Russ had the answers. It started in 2007 with 13 leaders from seven or eight countries, paired with coaches from North America. Russ built the community because he wanted a seat at the table himself — and what he learned fast was that the coaches needed the leaders just as much as the leaders needed the coaches. Nobody in the room had it all figured out, including him. (27:02) Leaders quit for one of two reasons: they don't know what to do, or they burn out. A mentor told Russ this decades ago, and he's watched it prove true in every community he's been part of since — including his own life. The fix isn't choosing one or the other to guard against. It's staying a learner and finding rhythm at the same time. (30:00) Confidence is a strength right up until it becomes ego. Russ named confidence as the leadership trait most likely to flip into a liability. Knowing what you're capable of is essential — but the moment you think you can do it all, you've lost the thing that made you effective in the first place. (31:42) Convergence is the moment your past stops feeling random. Russ uses a life-planning process built on two questions: how did I end up here, and where do I want to go. The light comes on when someone realizes something from their childhood is showing up directly in their work today — and that recognition changes how they see their whole story. (35:54) The tension between career and family never resolves. You just learn to live inside it. This is the center of the conversation. Russ's advice wasn't a framework for balancing the two — it was permission to stop expecting the tension to disappear. "You can't sell out to one or the other. You have to live in the tension. And that tension will not go away." (43:23) Looking back, the regret wasn't ambition — it was identity wrapped up in conquering new ground. Russ named travel and the pursuit of growing influence as the one thing he'd change. Not because the work wasn't valuable, but because some of it was driven by ego — by needing to be the guy who goes and conquers — rather than by what his family actually needed from him in that season. (44:20) Wealth isn't what you think it is until you're old enough to measure it correctly. Russ doesn't measure his life in financial terms. He measures it in the depth of relationship with his kids, his grandkids, and his wife Gina — and by that measure, he says he's the wealthiest man you'll find. That reframe came with age, not before it. (46:50) Chase the relationship, not the check. Bob Shank, a Barnabas co-founder, put it bluntly: if you treat donors like a personal checkbook, that's all you'll ever get from them. Russ has lived both sides of that mistake — taking the quick gift and missing the relationship that would have been worth far more. (51:29) God doesn't show up in the balance. He shows up in the extremes. Russ used to teach balance as the goal. He's since landed somewhere different: life is a series of extremes, and trying to stay safely in the middle means missing what God actually has for you on the edges. The goal isn't to live there permanently — it's to find the edge, learn from it, and recenter. (55:55) Joy multiplies when it's not about you. Watching his almost-four-year-old grandson at an art show. Watching a leader finally walk into what God made them for. Russ said it plainly: he used to think joy had to come from something he did. Now he knows he can experience joy just as fully through other people's breakthroughs — whether that's a grandson, a nonprofit leader, or someone in his coaching community. Get full access to Matt Heisler at mattheisler.substack.com/subscribe

  5. Jun 10

    How One Phone Call With a Coroner Shaped Katie Kelly's Hope in the Darkest Season

    Description Katie Kelly is the founder and president of Through It All Foundation, a nonprofit that equips churches and individuals to walk alongside people grieving the loss of a loved one. At 27 years old, Katie's husband Ben was killed in a shark attack while surfing off the coast of California. What followed was one of the most profound journeys of grief, faith, and calling I've heard — and what emerged on the other side is an organization born not from ambition, but from obedience. I encourage you to lean into the wisdom she has to share around how to care for those who are grieving… a topic that our culture is not great at. Lessons from Katie (00:14:59) The vertical and horizontal gospel. Katie describes healing as having two dimensions — a vertical one (God meeting us directly) and a horizontal one (God meeting us through people). She’s found the horizontal to be the most tangible expression of God’s love in her darkest season. (00:17:56) Ben’s lesson: don’t rush out of it. When Ben was going through something hard, he’d resist Katie’s urge to fix it and say, “God has something to teach me in this — why would I want to jump out too quick?” That posture of staying in the difficulty became foundational to who Katie is now. (00:28:27) Grief comes in waves — forever. Katie no longer believes she’ll ever be finished grieving. The love for Ben didn’t stop, so why would the grief? What changes is your ability to carry it. The waves don’t disappear; you just learn to swim a little better. (00:30:03) Validating emotion makes it smaller, not bigger. Before Ben died, Katie used to try to dampen people’s hard emotions, thinking validation would amplify them. She learned the opposite is true — when someone sits with you in your pain, the pain becomes more bearable, not more overwhelming. (00:38:58) C.S. Lewis gave her permission to question. Reading A Grief Observed — and seeing a revered man of faith struggle openly with God — gave Katie the freedom to wrestle with her own faith without shame. She’s convinced that kind of honest lament is something the church desperately needs more of. (00:41:14) “Can God be trusted?” is a different question than “Does God exist?” Katie could never say God didn’t exist — she’d seen him show up too clearly. But in years two and three, the harder question surfaced: do I want to serve you? That distinction is one of the most honest things I’ve heard someone say about faith after suffering. (00:45:44) God is in the details — before you even know you need them. Two years before Through It All had a logo or a name, a coroner collected sea glass from the beach where Ben died and gave it to Katie. She had no idea what it would become. That kind of providence, she says, is what rebuilt her trust in God — small gifts she couldn’t explain away. (00:57:58) God redeems terrible things — but He doesn’t cause them so we’ll have something to do. Katie was very clear on this distinction. She battled the fear that starting a nonprofit would feel like making Ben’s death useful. Her theology: God is in the business of redemption, not orchestrated tragedy. (01:03:28) Bring your bucket — but don’t take theirs home. One of the most useful images from this conversation: everyone brings their own bucket into a hard conversation. It’s not your job to carry their bucket out with yours. A grieving person needs someone healthy walking beside them, not someone equally weighed down. (01:08:04) Job’s friends were great — until they opened their mouths. The Jewish practice of sitting shiva — where no one speaks until the grieving person does — was exactly what Job needed. Katie believes the church has lost this practice of presence. The most loving thing you can do in the wake of loss is often just to be there, silent, without trying to make yourself more comfortable. Get full access to Matt Heisler at mattheisler.substack.com/subscribe

  6. Jun 3

    How a Message He Never Asked For Shaped Steven Lindenfelser's Spiritual Life

    Description Steven Lindenfelser is a graphic designer, musician, voracious reader, and father of two who joined me in his beautifully curated home studio — a space as eclectic and intentional as the man himself. We talked about the origins of his creativity, what it actually means to make something original, how fatherhood is forcing him to rediscover his own childhood, and why AI doesn't scare him at all. Steven also shared one of the most striking spiritual experiences I've ever heard. Lessons 1. Your earliest creative memory matters more than you think. (00:38:38) Steven didn't have a tidy answer about when creativity started — until the question unlocked something: a dinosaur book he made in kindergarten. The pride and wonder he felt after finishing it became a kind of blueprint for what creativity would mean to him for the rest of his life. First memories of making something aren't small — they're seeds. 2. There's a difference between mimicry and original creativity. (00:44:01) Steven and Matt wrestled with what actually makes something "creative." The conversation landed on a meaningful distinction: mimicry is learning the language; original creativity is when you synthesize your influences into something distinctly yours. As Steven put it, we're all branching off the same creative tree — but the branch you grow is your own. 3. Creative process matters more than creative output. (00:55:40) Inspired by the artist CJ Hendry, who spends a week or more on each hyper-realistic colored pencil piece despite the existence of AI that could replicate it in seconds, Steven made the case that the process of creating is the point. The satisfaction doesn't live in the final product — it lives in the hours you put in to get there. 4. Your creative space is a physical map of your inner world. (00:03:55) Steven's studio — stacked with typography books, vintage records, car artifacts, and mid-century design objects — isn't just aesthetic. It's a curated environment built to sustain and prompt creative thought. He noted that even when he ends up on Pinterest anyway, the physical space holds a kind of backup energy he can reach for when he's really stuck. 5. Parenting is a second childhood — with all your baggage. (00:30:51) Both Matt and Steven reflected on how having young kids puts you back in the middle of the very emotional and developmental experiences you lived through yourself — except now you're carrying every lesson, wound, and habit from your own upbringing. The challenge is staying self-aware enough to give your kids something better without overcorrecting. 6. Structure and creativity aren't opposites — but the line is personal. (01:11:46) Steven's mom was a homeschool drill sergeant who pushed piano lessons hard. The result? He plays today. But his friend Levi got the same treatment with tennis — and now won't touch a racket. The takeaway isn't a formula. It's that fostering creativity in your kids requires knowing that specific kid — how much to push, how much to let them wander, and what they'll hold against you later. 7. Sometimes God shows up in the most unexpected vessels. (01:27:18) The most powerful moment of the conversation came at the end: Steven's sister has a seizure disorder that wipes her short-term memory. On two separate occasions, she woke from a seizure and — with complete clarity — looked at Steven and said, "Jesus loves you. He wants you to pursue your passions." Then she'd slip back into disorientation with zero recollection of what she'd said. It became the cornerstone of his faith. Some messages find their way through in ways that defy easy explanation. Get full access to Matt Heisler at mattheisler.substack.com/subscribe

  7. May 26

    How Saying "I Can't Leave Without Doing Something" Shaped Cassie Furnari's Life's Work

    Today I’m joined by Cassie Furnari, founder and president of Milele Home — a rescue and recovery home for homeless young men in Kenya. This is a Barnabas Q&A episode, so it’s a bit different in format: Cassie shared her story with a group of young leaders, and we got to hear some really great questions from the audience. What struck me most is how Cassie didn’t set out to start a nonprofit. She was wrapping up an internship in Kenya when she met twelve boys living on the streets, tried to hand them off to existing organizations, and was told no. So she did something about it herself. That accidental obedience, over fifteen years, has become something extraordinary. If you want to learn more about Milele or Barnabas Group, links are in the show notes below. Links: * Cassie on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/cassie-furnari-60b503102 * Milele Home: milelehome.org * Barnabas Group OC: barnabasgroupoc.org We discuss: * The origin story of Milele and how Cassie stumbled into founding it (0:43) * Growing up in a missions-minded family and how it shaped her heart (5:13) * How Cassie protects herself from burnout leading a demanding nonprofit (5:59) * Addressing root causes — why Milele works with families, not just the boys (8:40) * The “Restore” step: physical, spiritual, and emotional rehabilitation on-site (11:55) * Building and succession planning around key local leaders Joel and Margaret (13:29) * A tour of the new campus: farm, chapel, courts, counseling center, and more (14:34) * Her advice for young professionals wanting to get involved in grassroots work (16:35) * The vision for Milele as a training hub — not just replication (19:14) * The spiritual warfare Cassie felt the moment the campus opened (21:46) 10 lessons from my conversation with Cassie Furnari: * (0:43) The best organizations are often built by accident. Cassie wasn’t trying to start a nonprofit. She was finishing an internship, met twelve boys on the streets, tried to hand them off to other organizations, and was told no. That gap — and her refusal to accept it — is where Milele began. * (2:01) “I can’t leave without doing something” is a calling in disguise. That phrase is one of the most honest descriptions of vocation I’ve heard. Cassie didn’t have a vision statement or a five-year plan. She had a conviction she couldn’t ignore. * (3:17) Locally-led is not just a strategy — it’s a value. From the beginning, Cassie wanted what she was building to be owned by Kenyans. She found Joel and Margaret — a pastor and a trained social worker — who became the true architects of Milele’s culture and impact. That humility has made the work sustainable. * (5:13) The seeds of calling are planted early. Cassie grew up going to Mexico and Kenya with her family through their church. She didn’t manufacture her passion — it was cultivated in her over years of early exposure to global need. Pay attention to where your heart was opened young. * (5:59) Burnout doesn’t announce itself — it accumulates. Cassie shared honestly that this last season has been the closest to burnout she’s felt. It took outside community — not just her own willpower — to recognize it and respond. The people around us often see what we can’t. * (7:42) Empowering your team is the best anti-burnout strategy. Because Cassie trusts her team in Kenya, she can actually step away. Permission to rest only works if you’ve built people who are empowered to run without you. * (9:50) Per one boy served, eight people in his family are impacted. That’s not a statistic — that’s a philosophy. Milele doesn’t just help boys get off the streets. They go into homes, work with mothers, run addiction recovery courses, and partner with local churches. The ripple effect is the point. * (12:21) You can’t go straight from the streets into school. The “Restore” phase exists because there’s a gap — not in resources, but in readiness. Trauma-informed care, physical detox, discipleship, life skills: these create the bridge between where someone is and where they can go. * (17:36) “Your vocation is where the world’s deepest need and your greatest gladness meet.” This quote from Cassie’s college days has stayed with her ever since — and it shows. The advice she gives young people isn’t about résumés or roles. It’s about finding where your specific fire meets a specific need. * (21:46) Big breakthroughs invite spiritual opposition. After four years of planning, designing, and fundraising, the Milele campus finally opened. And almost immediately, Cassie said it felt like everything was coming against them. She framed it simply: “I don’t think we’re making the enemy happy right now.” There’s something worth sitting with in that. About Cassie Furnari: Cassie Furnari is the founder and president of Milele Home, a rescue and recovery nonprofit serving homeless young men in Kenya. What started as an act of stubborn compassion at the end of a college internship has grown into a fully-staffed residential campus offering physical restoration, trauma-informed counseling, faith-based discipleship, vocational training, and family intervention. Cassie is also a member of the Barnabas Group OC’s Emerging Leaders cohort, where she continues to develop alongside other young leaders in ministry and business. She lives in Southern California with her husband and kids. Get full access to Matt Heisler at mattheisler.substack.com/subscribe

  8. May 13

    How An Empty Room Shaped Noah Fiegener's Definition of Success

    Description Noah is a pastor, husband, father, and thoughtful friend who spends his mornings making espresso and being present with his daughter before the busyness of the day begins. We begin with a quote from Pierre Teilhard de Chardin about trusting the slow work of God, then discuss how deep thinking comes from reading the ancients, why Jesuits produce such contemplative writers, and Noah's love for early church fathers like Justin Martyr and C.S. Lewis. Noah shares his conviction that character development is the slowest work—looking back and realizing he wasn't nearly as mature as he thought—and opens up about a pivotal youth ministry season when everything seemed to be failing until one girl encountered God in a nearly empty room, teaching him that focusing only on outcomes makes you miss the beauty of the moment. We discuss the humility required to listen to those who've gone before us, why we don't grow alone, how reading ancient writers reveals we're rarely as novel as we think, and Noah's wrestling with atonement theories and the anxiety of wondering where the world is going as a father. I hope this conversation challenges you to trust the slow work of God in your character, read broadly and humbly from those who've come before, and remember that your small daily actions matter even when the problems feel too big to solve. Lessons from Noah Social pressure can be a tool for productivity. (4:40) When asked if social pressure motivates him, Noah responds immediately: “Thousand percent.” He loves coffee shops but has discovered libraries are the most underrated places—free, quiet, and full of social accountability. The presence of others working keeps him from falling into YouTube rabbit holes. Sometimes the constraint of knowing someone might see your screen is exactly what you need to stay focused. Productivity isn’t always about willpower—sometimes it’s about engineering the right environment. Character development is the slowest work you’ll ever do. (19:03) Noah reflects on what he thought would be faster in life: “I think the slowest thing that’s taken a lot of work that I thought would be faster is my character.” At every stage—teenage years, young adult, mid-twenties, now approaching thirties—he thought he was farther along than he really was. “I underestimated the amount of work in discipline and honestly partnership with the Spirit of God to move me into a person replicating the kingdom of God.” Looking back, he sees he wasn’t nearly as patient, loving, or kind as he thought. Character is built slowly, and you only realize how much work remains with time. Busyness is the Americanized metric for success—and it’s backwards. (20:54) Noah critiques the cultural reflex: when you ask someone how they’re doing, the answer is “busy.” Being busy has become a status symbol in Orange County—if you’re busy, you must be doing well. But the actual ideal? “Not doing anything. It’s like chilling and having so much money that you can just do whatever you want.” Both extremes are wrong. Somewhere between hustle culture and idle wealth is the real answer—work as gift, not curse or identity. The Genesis story shows Adam and Eve given work to tend the garden before the fall. Work isn’t evil, and it’s not everything. It’s something God designed us for. Work your youth away, and your character won’t change on a dime. (23:22) Noah observes the modern trap: “I will work and it will be my identity. And it will be my everything. And then after I work my youth away, make enough money, and then in my old age, somehow my character is going to change on a dime.” He points to multi-billionaires who never retire despite having more money and power than they could ever want. There’s an illusion there—of success, of satisfaction. If you build your life around work now, retirement won’t magically fix you. The person you’re becoming in the grind is the person you’ll be at the end. Character doesn’t reset. The days are long, the years are short—and parenting is a practice in patience. (25:45) Every parent knows the saying, but Noah unpacks what it actually means: “Parenting is a tension of patience in multiple ways. It’s the patience of being with your child as they’re throwing a tantrum while also being patient and knowing that you’re present with a child while having to do a hundred other things.” You can’t just drag your kids through life like luggage. They’re more like a garden—stationary, needing tending, requiring you to slow down and put down roots. People who moved around constantly as kids rarely speak of it positively. Deep-rooted, long-term stability matters for children. When everything seems to be failing, you might be missing what God is actually doing. (36:47) Six to eight months into rebuilding a post-COVID youth ministry, Noah and his team were doing everything right—but the numbers kept shrinking. His coordinator said, “We’re doing everything right and it just seems to not be working.” That same week, the ministry was the smallest it had ever been. But that night, a girl and her dad showed up late, encountered God, and she found the friend she’d been praying for. Noah learned: “If I was only focused on the end, I would have missed that.” The 170 kids who eventually came took two years of grinding, gardening, and trusting God does the growth. But the real fruit was in the small, seemingly insignificant moments along the way. You don’t grow alone—there’s no such thing as spiritual formation in isolation. (41:17) Youth ministry taught Noah a fundamental truth: “We do not grow alone. There’s no such thing as growing alone.” As a youth pastor, you realize you’re limited—you need leaders who take time out of their lives to pour into the next generation. Formation happens in community. The African proverb holds: “If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” Noah rejects the myth of the self-made man. Somewhere along the way, someone helped you—whether it was someone cleaning bathrooms so you could focus elsewhere or a business partner investing alongside you. Both had equal benefit. Formation is done together. Reading the ancients reveals you’re rarely as novel as you think. (51:26) Noah’s love for Jesus has made him curious about the church across thousands of years. What he’s found: “There’s very rarely something new under the sun that I’m thinking about, and that I’m not novel.” When he reads ancient writers, they critique him—and they’re dead, which makes it both hard and lovely. Americans think they’re progressive, pushing the timeline forward. But when you read history, you realize: “There are things that they did do wrong and have done wrong, and there are things that we are doing wrong currently, and things that they were actually more enlightened in than we are today.” Humility comes from reading people and realizing you’re not the smartest person who’s ever existed. Humility means listening to those who’ve gone somewhere you haven’t. (31:11) Noah describes his current season: “I’m having to humble myself and learn humility well, and listen to those who have gone before me and to trust that they may actually have gone somewhere that I haven’t gone yet.” There’s something in him that doesn’t always want to listen to someone older—that’s pride. The work is stopping, considering, and taking correction or guidance from an older person who says, “Hey, I’ve been here a little bit longer than you. Press the brakes in your early career.” Not passive, always pouring back in—but humble enough to receive wisdom from those ahead on the path. Children teach you humility—they have nothing to offer but dependence. (34:01) In Jesus’ time, children weren’t elevated like today—they were looked down on because they couldn’t offer society anything. But Jesus says we must come to Him like children. Noah sees it in his daughter: “She’ll stop and she’ll look at something and she’s like amused by it and she’s enjoying it and she’ll like so present.” The humility is stopping with her, sitting in the grass, not rushing her along. “There’s a humility to stop with her and just to sit in the grass and like yeah this is good.” Children model total dependence, openness, presence—exactly what Jesus calls us to. The hard question: where is the world going as a dad? (56:50) Noah wrestles with an existential anxiety that’s intensified since becoming a father: “Where is the world going?” It’s a question that gives him anxiety, burning in the background all the time. He doesn’t have an answer to the future except this: “Jesus will return and Jesus will be victorious and all the things that I’m worrying about right now there will be a coming age of the kingdom of God.” How much control does he have over big tech, governments, wars—or even his own life? He has to run to Jesus multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a night lying in bed. The only anchor is trusting the one who holds the future. * You’re not apathetic just because you can’t change everything. (1:00:39) Matt shares his struggle with indifference in the face of massive problems—if he can’t solve world-scale issues, why try? Noah pushes back: “You do have an ability to make change through your individual life.” There’s a desire in our culture—fueled by social media and overwhelming information—to become apathetic. “I can’t change, so why even try.” But there’s something deeply Christian about saying: “The kingdom of heaven is now. So I should take action. I should be moving as a father, as a brother, as a sister, as somebody in this world who needs to bring righteousness and justice into the world.” Even small individual action matters. Apathy isn’t faithfulness. * Your small daily

See All (18)

About

A series of honest conversations, hosted by Matt Heisler, on exploring creativity and leadership within the faith based non-profit world as he seeks to ask the questions that help him understand his own journey in light of the perspectives and experiences his share. mattheisler.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    Matt Heisler
  • Years Active
    2026
  • Episodes
    18
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Matt Heisler
  • Show Website
    I Don't Know You