The Great Careers Program

Liv Pennie and Marian Wright
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You know that one great careers program your school has been searching for? The one that will prepare your students for the future, solve your engagement problems and finally show students there's a point to all this learning they're doing? That one single solution was never going to come in a box. It can't be handed to one person, and it definitely isn't something that starts in Year 10. A great careers program is not something you find on a shelf. It is something you build into the conditions and architecture of the way you do schooling. Marian Wright is a systems thinker working at the intersection of school design and student futures through Coherence Co-Lab. Liv Pennie is the CEO and Co-Founder of BECOME Education and genuinely optimistic about what young people are capable of when schools design the right conditions. Each episode they tackle one big question, dig into the evidence, and leave you with something you can actually use. This is a show for the entire school staff room. Because preparing young people for their futures was never just one person's job.

Episodes

  1. Aug 10

    Episode 3: How do we talk to students about AI and the future of work without the doom (or the hype!)?

    For decades, we've told students in school that the formula to a good future is relatively simple: work hard, get good grades, study, get a good job. It's the sequence that most schools, parents and the media anchor their narratives about the future in. But with AI reshaping how people enter and grow in a profession, is that promise even true anymore? But we're here to ask: was that promise ever even true to begin with?  In their first ever episode with a guest appearance, Marian and Liv are joined by UK career consultant Chris Webb, creator of The Week in Careers newsletter, to pull apart the headlines about AI and entry-level jobs. Chris explains why the "entry level jobs are down a third" story got misread, what it actually means for a job or industry to be "exposed" to AI, and why the 'good-grades-degree-good-job promise' was never the guarantee it was made out to be. Liv and Marian zoom out to the wider labour market with Chris, then zoom back into what it means for teachers standing in front of a disengaged classroom right now and the conversations we should be having with students about uncertainty.  You'll leave with a simple way to separate the myths from what we actually know, and a reminder that curiosity and agency are still the two things worth protecting in every conversation we have with young people. Plus: this episode's "I Didn't Know That Was a Thing" is a job that we reckon even football fans have never heard of, courtesy of Chris. Research and resources mentioned in this episode.  Chris mentioned these people and reports: Anthropic Economic Index — quarterly data on how businesses use Claude across industries → anthropic.com/economic-index Sarah O'Connor, Financial Times — on what "AI exposure" actually means for a job → ft.com/sarah-o-connor Creative Industries Policy and Evidence Centre — Creative Industries Skills Audits, across 11 creative sub-sectors → pec.ac.uk Chris's skills dashboard, built from the Creative PEC data → creative-skill-map.lovable.app Chris recommended these sources/people for balanced reporting on AI: Charlie Ball and Jisc  → jisc.ac.uk Lightcast for labour market analytics on AI's impact across occupations → lightcast.io Sign up to Chris newsletter! #TheWeekInCareers by Chris Webb → theweekincareers.substack.com Marian mentioned these: Audrey Watters, "'Robots Are Coming For Your Children'" (hackeducation.com, 2017) — where the "jobs that don't exist yet" claim tracing started → hackeducation.com/2017/12/20/top-ed-tech-trends-robots-kids Benjamin Doxtdator, "A Field Guide to 'Jobs that Don't Exist Yet'" (2017) — traces the claim back through Clinton (1996) to Devereux C. Josephs (1957) → edtechbooks.org Professor Joel Pearson — "the world's first neuro-futurist," on cortisol and uncertainty → The Imperfects – "I Think, Therefore AI" Professor Jane McGonigal — Imaginable: How to See the Future Coming and Feel Ready for Anything → janemcgonigal.com UNESCO — futures thinking resources → unesdoc.unesco.org OECD Career Readiness Project  — the "porous walls" line about connecting classroom and workplace → oecd.org/career-readiness Liv mentioned: The Rest Is Politics Podcast — series on Gen Z, link to one episode in the series → Lucky or Left Behind? The Gen Z Money Story Plus, don't forget to head to the Substack for this episode's "Take This To The Meeting" resource where you can unpack the concepts of this episode with your school team.  Get in touch Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. Credits The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

  2. Jul 19 ·  Bonus

    One more thing! Bias, power, and knowing when to get out of the way.

    Liv and Marian have a lot to say, and One more thing! is where some of that overflow ends up. These are bonus, bite-sized pieces of conversation that don't end up making it into the final episode, but they are too good to leave on the cutting room floor.  In this one: A five-year-old's fascination with submersibles is easy to get curious about. As a parent, it's much harder not to turn it into a career plan. And with senior subject selection season unfolding in schools right now, this bite-sized bonus is a timely one. Marian and Liv pick up from Marian's "I Didn't Know That Was a Thing" conversation with her son Hugo, and dig into what it takes for adults, whether that's a parent, a teacher, or a school system, to hold their own bias so a young person's own sense of who they are gets room to surface.  They get into what actually sits underneath a career "choice" once you push past the first answer of money, why kids so often read what impresses the adults around them rather than what genuinely interests them, and a telling moment from a PD session where a science teacher admitted they didn't want students exploring too freely, in case it meant fewer of them chose science. It's all emphasised by a line from Patty McCord's book Powerful: power doesn't need to be granted. It just needs the conditions to be exercised. Get in touch Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. Credits The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

  3. Jul 2

    Episode 2: Where does a great careers program live in K-12 schooling?

    Everyone agrees careers education matters. So why does it keep ending up on the periphery of school life and one person's responsibility? In this episode Liv and Marian ask a deceptively simple question: what is a great careers program, and whose job is it actually? They zoom into the evidence on best practice, including the Gatsby Benchmarks from the UK and where Australia sits by comparison, and zoom out to a systems view of why this work keeps getting pushed to the edges even when policy and school vision statements say otherwise. Drawing on Donella Meadows' systems thinking framework, they make the case that if careers education is marginalised, that's not an accident. It might be the system working exactly as it was designed. Along the way, Liv unpacks what "career," "career development," and "careers education" actually mean and why the distinction matters, and Marian traces the historical decisions that built the "grammar of schooling" and what Meadows would say about judging a system's purpose by what it actually produces, not what it claims. You'll leave with two simple starting points: a mapping exercise from Liv, and a walk around your own school with fresh eyes from Marian. Plus, this episode's "I Didn't Know That Was a Thing" comes from an unlikely source: Marian's five year old son Hugo, who is keenly interested in deep sea research and isn't that bothered about how one goes to the toilet while on a submersible. Head to the Substack for this episode's "Take This To The Meeting" resource where you can unpack the concepts of this episode with your school team.  Research and thinking referenced in this episode: World Economic Forum (2025) — Future of Jobs Report 2025 https://www.weforum.org/publications/the-future-of-jobs-report-2025/ Career Industry Council of Australia / National Careers Institute (2022) — Australian Blueprint for Career Development(2nd ed.) https://www.yourcareer.gov.au/resources/australian-blueprint-for-career-development Holman, J. (2014, updated 2024) — The Gatsby Benchmarks / Good Career Guidance https://www.gatsby.org.uk/education/activity/good-career-guidance/ OECD (2024–2025) — PISA 2022 Career Readiness Dashboard and The State of Global Teenage Career Preparation https://www.oecd.org/en/data/dashboards/teenage-career-readiness.html https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/the-state-of-global-teenage-career-preparation_d5f8e3f2-en.html Schleicher, A. (2015) — Education in an Uncertain World, Project Syndicate https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/education-technological-skills-more-important-by-andreas-schleicher-2015-12 Career Industry Council of Australia (2025) — Australia's Youth Deserve Better Than a "Curriculum Connection" https://cica.org.au/australias-youth-deserve-better/ Tyack, D. & Cuban, L. (1995) — Tinkering Toward Utopia: A Century of Public School Reform, Harvard University Press https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674892835 Education Council (2019) — Alice Springs (Mparntwe) Education Declaration https://www.education.gov.au/indigenous-education/resources/alice-springs-mparntwe-education-declaration Meadows, D. (2008) — Thinking in Systems: A Primer, Chelsea Green Publishing Get in touch Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. Credits The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

  4. Jun 15 ·  Bonus

    One more thing! Are career tests helpful or harmful to a young person's agency?

    Liv and Marian have a lot to say, and One more thing! is where some of that overflow ends up. These are bonus, bite-sized pieces of conversation that don't end up making it into the final episode, but they are too good to leave on the cutting room floor.  In this one: Career tests have been matching people to jobs since the 1900s. AI is just doing it faster - and taking your data. Marian and Liv dig into why schools keep reaching for career tests and inventories, and why handing a young person a set of results might not be that helpful when it comes to decision-making about the future.  They also get into the AI career matching tools multiplying in the market right now, and Liv explores the idea of collective uncertainty: the particular moment we're in where nobody has a clear map, and designing education for that might mean unlearning almost everything about how we've done it before. Research and articles referenced in this episode: Laing, B. and Pennie, L. (2026) The Scaffolding Illusion: why career tests aren’t the structures students need.  Whiston, S. C., Li, Y., Goodrich Mitts, N., & Wright, L. (2017).  Effectiveness of career choice interventions: A meta-analytic replication and extension. Journal of Vocational Behavior, 100, 175–184. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jvb.2017.03.010  Wong ZY, Quek FYX and Yang H (2026) RIASEC self-assessment tools as career interventions: theory and effectiveness. Front. Organ. Psychol. 4:1792707. doi: 10.3389/forgp.2026.1792707 Get in touch Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. Credits The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

  5. Jun 3

    Episode 1: Whose decision is it anyway?

    More than half of school leavers choose a pathway to please someone else. That stat alone is worth a conversation. In this episode, Marian and Liv dig into one of the most loaded moments in a student's school life — subject selection — and ask the question that might make us a bit uncomfortable: whose decision is the career decision, really? They unpack what the research says about how schools are (often unintentionally) shaping student choices, why more information nights and expo brochures aren't as helpful as we think, and what it actually looks like when students arrive at that conversation already in the driver's seat. If you're heading into subject selection season — or just starting to think about how your school designs that process — you'll leave practical takeaways to take back to your team.  Plus: the F1 job that sounds amazing until Liv and Marian  actually thought about it, and it turns out there's a growing list of 'career heck no's'. Research referenced in this episode: Gleeson, J., Walsh, L., Gallo Cordoba, B., Mikola, M., Waite, C., & Cutler, B. (2022) — Young Women Choosing Careers: Who Decides?, Monash University https://www.monash.edu/education/cypep/research/young-women-choosing-careers-who-decides Black, B. (2025) — Chances or Choices? The Influences on Subject Choices, University of Glasgowhttps://theses.gla.ac.uk/85338/1/2025BlackPhD.pdf Behavioural Insights Team — Moments of Choice: How Young People Make Career Decisionshttps://www.bi.team/blogs/moments-of-choice-how-young-people-make-career-decisions/ OECD — The State of Global Teenage Career Preparation (PISA 2022 data) https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/the-state-of-global-teenage-career-preparation_d5f8e3f2-en/full-report/component-6.html Anders, J., Henderson, M., Moulton, V., & Sullivan, A. (2017) — The Role of Schools in Explaining Individuals' Subject Choices at Age 14, UCL Centre for Longitudinal Studies https://cls.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/CLS-WP-20179-The-role-of-schools-in-explaining-individuals27-subject-choices-at-age-14.pdf Exploring Career Decision-Making Anxiety Among High School Students (2024), Multidisciplinary Science Journalhttps://malque.pub/ojs/index.php/msj/article/view/3157 Feel free to send us your thoughts, questions, and your own answer to the question we started with today: Whose decision is it anyway? via hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com.  Get in touch Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. Credits The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

  6. Trailer

    Trailer: Introducing The Great Careers Program

    We called the podcast The Great Careers Program. Which raises an obvious question: are we saying schools should stop buying careers programs? No. Not even close. In this short trailer, Marian and Liv address the tension head on. Yes, Liv is the co-founder and CEO of a careers program. Yes, they called the podcast the thing that doesn't exist. Here is what they actually mean by that, and why it matters for every school who cares about the futures of their students.  Get in touch Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. Credits The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

  7. May 13 ·  Bonus

    An introduction: Who we are and what this show is about

    What is the great careers program? And does it actually exist? In this intro episode, Marian and Liv answer the questions you probably have before you commit to a new podcast. What is this show about, who is it for, and why are two people who come at career education from completely different angles doing it together? In this episode, they cover:  What the name actually means and why it is a little bit cheeky. The argument that career education is not one person's job and never was. What a great career actually looks like — and why the answer is more personal and more complex than most schools treat it. Who should be listening (hint: not just the careers lead). Plus surprise questions for each other including what percentage of school leaders switched off the moment they saw the word careers in the title (Marian's answer: around 60%), what a great career actually is, and what they would both do if they were not doing this. Coming up in this series of The Great Careers Program Whose choice is it anyway? Are students really making their own decisions about their futures? AI and student futures: how do we use it for good? What is actually happening to entry level jobs? Beyond curriculum: what schools can do structurally and systemically. Future chaos: how to build hope and optimism through best practice careers education. Find us Search The Great Careers Program on your favourite podcast app and follow so you get notified when new episodes drop. Find us on Substack for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question or a story to share? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. About the hosts Marian Wright is the founder of Coherence Co-Lab, working with school systems on the gap between intent and implementation. Liv Pennie is the CEO of BECOME Education, a careers education program working with schools across Australia. References and links Sir John Holman on the idea that there is 'no single bullet' in careers education. Dr Glenn Savage, Professor of Education Futures, University of Melbourne. JP Michel and The Challenge Mindset. Mike Priddis on AI and the future of work. Young women choosing careers - who decides? Jo Gleeson, Monash University. Get in touch Find us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at hi@thegreatcareersprogram.com. Credits The Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

    An introduction: Who we are and what this show is about

Trailer

About

You know that one great careers program your school has been searching for? The one that will prepare your students for the future, solve your engagement problems and finally show students there's a point to all this learning they're doing? That one single solution was never going to come in a box. It can't be handed to one person, and it definitely isn't something that starts in Year 10. A great careers program is not something you find on a shelf. It is something you build into the conditions and architecture of the way you do schooling. Marian Wright is a systems thinker working at the intersection of school design and student futures through Coherence Co-Lab. Liv Pennie is the CEO and Co-Founder of BECOME Education and genuinely optimistic about what young people are capable of when schools design the right conditions. Each episode they tackle one big question, dig into the evidence, and leave you with something you can actually use. This is a show for the entire school staff room. Because preparing young people for their futures was never just one person's job.

Information

  • Creator
    Liv Pennie and Marian Wright
  • Years Active
    2026
  • Episodes
    7
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 The Great Careers Program
  • Show Website
    The Great Careers Program