Say What? with Michele Norris

Say What? with Michele Norris

Michele Norris on culture, news, art, cuisine... & all the things in between. It's a BIG world. Lotta Stories. I'm Listening. michelenorris.substack.com

Episodes

  1. 6d ago

    A Rare Recording and A Reckoning

    I could not sit on this story any longer. 🤎 I have released a special audio episode on my Substack about a rare recording and a reckoning on the anniversary of the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. We need to know more about this troubling chapter of American history. On June 1, 1921, the Greenwood community of Tulsa woke up to ash and rubble. The entire community, a Black neighborhood so prosperous it was known as Black Wall Street, had been wiped out by an angry White mob. Thirty-five city blocks were obliterated. Burned. Bombed. Looted. As many as 300 people were killed. And then the erasure began. First, they destroyed the community. Then the act itself was removed from collective memory. Police records went missing. Photographs disappeared. The people responsible for that terror pulled down a veil of communal silence. But one man named Elgon Wilson who witnessed the whole thing kept talking. And his family recorded the stories that he told over and over again at the dinner table. One of his grandsons shared those audio tapes with me, and now I can share the resulting podcast episode with you — a story about a family’s burden of inheriting a history than an entire community tried to hide. Grandpa Elgon always said he did not participate in the mayhem while he was working that night. But the family discovered things about his past that raise questions about his claim of being just a bystander. There are twists and turns and conundrums in this episode. And we also hear from Anneliese Brunner, whose great-grandmother survived the assault on Greenwood, as well as Tulsa native and Historian Scott Ellsworth, author of the book, Death in a Promised Land. This episode was a pilot for a podcast called You People, inspired by The Race Card Project where we collect 6-word stories about race and cultural identity. The genesis for this journey began when Elgon Wilson’s son Zachary shared his 6-word story about the carnage in Tulsa. We listened to the tapes. We did a lot of research. We traveled back to Tulsa with Zachary Wilson for the 100th anniversary of the race massacre in 2021. We produced a powerful episode, but it never got picked up for a full series so we are serving it up here on Substack. Some stories are too important to stay on the shelf collecting dust. And we intend to keep going. We will occasionally dip into the archives of The Race Card Project to serve up interviews, videos, animations, hidden histories, curiosities, courageous conversations and recorded segments. Stay tuned. Hope you will press play and take a listen. Let us know what you think. Take care of each other. Stay safe out there. 🎧 LISTEN HERE Guest: Zachary Wilson, a Presbyterian Pastor in Minnesota, whose grandfather was a witness to the Tulsa Race Massacre as he worked that evening and into the next day, delivering telegrams on his motorcycle for Western Union. Historians say the family audiotapes of Elgon Wilson’s memories from that day are an extremely rare instance where a White witness to the carnage in Tulsa recorded their recollections. Chapters:00:00 Introduction to the Race Card Project00:34 About TRCP01:16 Exploring Inheritance and Identity04:39 Zachary Wilson’s Family History10:21 The Tulsa Massacre: A Historical Context16:05 The Role of Bystanders in History21:32 Zach’s Journey to Tulsa27:09 Confronting Family Legacy32:49 The Complexity of Racial Identity38:29 Reflections on Change and Responsibility SHOW CREDITS:You People is a podcast inspired by The Race Card Project. This episode was produced by Futuro Media, whose commitment to stories that matter made this work possible. Special thanks to Nicole Rothwell, Mike Sargent, Marlon Bishop, Maria Hinojosa and the Futuro Team. There’s a reason that team keeps racking up awards! David Walters served as content editor. Melissa Bear is the coordinating producer for Say What Media and The Race Card Project. A big round of thanks to Mitch Kapor and Freada Kapor Klein who have supported TRCP on this long journey. BIG THANKS to everyone who has supported The Race Card Project over the years. Independent projects like this rely on people who are willing to lend resources, time, ideas and encouragement. About Zachary Wilson:Zachary Wilson grew up in Yakima, Washington, twin brother at his side, apple orchards out the window, which he’ll tell you was more formative than it sounds. He studied Philosophy and Classics at Augustana College, earned his M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary, and has spent his career as a Presbyterian pastor in the Twin Cities, most recently serving as “Acting Co-Executive Presbyter” of the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) It’s a title akin to a Bishop. He and his wife have called St. Paul home for many years. He is also, it turns out, the grandson of a man who was riding a motorcycle through Tulsa, Oklahoma on the night of May 31st, 1921 — and then talked about it for the rest of his life. That inheritance is what brought Zach to The Race Card Project. Say What? Substack is a reader supported project kept alive by reader donations and the generosity of our community. It’s a really exciting model, but I need your help to keep it going. Subscribe so you never miss Say What?. Get full access to Say What? with Michele Norris at michelenorris.substack.com/subscribe

    3 min

  2. May 31

    The Tulsa Tapes: The “Bystander" who saw Black Wall Street Burn

    I have been eager to share this story with all of you for years, and as we hit the 105th anniversary of the 1921 Tulsa Massacre, it’s time to finally pull it off the shelf. What you’re about to hear is the pilot episode of You People, a podcast we created five years ago , inspired by our work at The Race Card Project, where we collect 6-word stories about race and cultural identity. The journey started with a 6-word story about “carnage.” A word like that captures your attention. We dove in and did reporting. We recorded a fantastic episode. We believed in it. We were proud of it. And then, because of the vagaries of legacy media, it was never picked up. That changes today. Some stories are too important to stay on the shelf collecting dust. On May 31st, 1921. A White mob descended on a neighborhood in Tulsa, Oklahoma, called Greenwood. At the time, it was one of the most prosperous Black communities in America — a boomtown known as Black Wall Street. Tensions were running high that night because a 19-year-old Black man who worked as a shoeshiner had been accused of attacking a 17-year-old White elevator operator named Sarah Page the previous day. That accusation led to an incendiary article in the afternoon newspaper under the headline, “Nab Negro for Attacking Girl in Elevator.” By the evening of May 31, a large crowd assembled in front of the courthouse where the shoeshiner, Dick Rowland was being detained. Black residents, worried for his safety, also went to the courthouse to protect Rowland. Several confrontations flared up, and in the chaos, gunfire erupted, and quickly things spiraled out of control. Law enforcement decreed that Black people were the instigators and joined forces with the angry Whites headed toward Greenwood to quell what they called a “Negro Uprising.” What happened next turned into the most destructive act of anti-black violence in modern American history. The mob destroyed everyone and everything in sight. Thirty-five city blocks were obliterated. As many as 300 people were killed. More than 1,200 homes were destroyed. One hundred and ninety-one businesses were wiped out. What was left was stolen and looted. By the morning of June 1st, the once prosperous area of Greenwood had been reduced to rubble and ash. And then, the erasure began. The bodies were buried. The police reports disappeared. Photos were increasingly hard to come by. And the White community in Tulsa moved forward with silence. First, a community was wiped out. Then the act itself was removed from collective memory. What makes this episode so rare and so important is that it spotlights a fragment of history that actually survived — a rare set of first-person audio recordings of a White eyewitness to the massacre. This story revolves around a former White Tulsa resident named Elgon Wilson. He was 18 years old in 1921 and had been working for Western Union as a delivery man. He was delivering telegrams by motorcycle in Greenwood on the night of the massacre and into the next day. He watched the mayhem. His own life was threatened. And he kept working. And then, for the rest of his life, he did something rare. He kept talking about what he saw and experienced. He told the stories to his family members over and over again, often at the dinner table with Sunday supper spread out on the good linen. And the reason I can share this story with you is that his family put a tape recorder on the table. He told the stories over and over, and they recorded those tales over and over. Years later, one of Elgon Wilson’s grandsons sent his 6-word story to The Race Card Project, and it wound up being a portal into this gruesome chapter of American history. Zachary Wilson is a Presbyterian pastor in St. Paul. After listening to those stories throughout his childhood, Zach has been ruminating over deep questions for most of his life. Zach has spent years wondering , not just what his grandfather saw, but what he did beyond driving his motorbike. His grandfather, who left Tulsa soon after the massacre and began a family elsewhere in the Midwest, said he was just a “bystander.” Zach wondered if that was the right word for a witness to carnage? What was his responsibility since he and his brothers hold a piece of history that no one else has? What does it mean to inherit an intimate view of a story that so many people tried to hide? This episode doesn’t offer easy answers. It gets complicated. And messy. And honest in a way that will most certainly cause some discomfort. And there are a few twists and turns that upend easy assumptions. I hope you hit play and take a listen. I hope you share your thoughts about what you hear. And I hope you will come back because we are going to be talking to Zachary Wilson again because so much has happened since we recorded his story five years ago. We will also spend some more time with Anneliese Bruner, whose great-grandmother survived the massacre and then wrote one of the very first books about the terror in Tulsa back in1922. As you listen, remember this episode was recorded years ago, around the 100th anniversary of the Greenwood annihilation. You will hear references to COVID-19 and a time when people were not venturing out to restaurants. At the time we recorded this, historians told us that the Wilson family recordings of Grandpa Elgon represented one of the only incidents where a White witness to the Tulsa massacre recorded an account of what they saw. In recent years, more witnesses may have come forward, but these recorded accounts are still VERY rare. The work of reckoning in Tulsa continues. A Department of Justice investigation produced a 126-page report that found that the terror in Tulsa was triggered by an unfounded allegation. Still, no charges have been filed for crimes committed. The statute of limitations leaves few paths to justice. After all these years, no reparations or restitution. And with recent efforts to use ground-penetrating technology and advanced genealogical tools, bodies that were hastily buried are still being recovered, exhumed, investigated, and identified. It reminds me of the African Proverb I heard Skip Gates reference at a book festival years ago, “the body you tried to bury in the yard years ago has a toe sticking out of the ground today.” I have no idea whether that is a real proverb, but the metaphor certainly applies here.. One more thing before you press play. We are so glad we can finally share this episode. We’d love to hear your thoughts, questions or observations. And if you want to share your own 6-word story, the inbox at The Race Card Project is always open and we will occasionally roll out new episodes of You People in coming months. Stay tuned. Take care of yourself and each other. Stay safe out there. The Tulsa Tapes- Hosted By Michele NorrisYou People Episode 01 Guest: Zachary Wilson Chapters:00:00 Introduction to the Race Card Project00:34 About TRCP01:16 Exploring Inheritance and Identity04:39 Zachary Wilson’s Family History10:21 The Tulsa Massacre: A Historical Context16:05 The Role of Bystanders in History21:32 Zach’s Journey to Tulsa27:09 Confronting Family Legacy32:49 The Complexity of Racial Identity38:29 Reflections on Change and Responsibility SHOW CREDITS:You People is a podcast inspired by The Race Card Project. This episode was produced by Futuro Media, whose commitment to stories that matter made this work possible. Special thanks to Nicole Rothwell, Mike Sargent, Marlon Bishop, Maria Hinojosa and the Futuro Team. There’s a reason that team keeps racking up awards! David Walters served as content editor. Melissa Bear is the coordinating producer for Say What Media and The Race Card Project. A big round of thanks to Mitch Kapor and Freada Kapor Klein who have supported TRCP on this long journey. About Zachary Wilson:Zachary Wilson grew up in Yakima, Washington, twin brother at his side, apple orchards out the window, which he’ll tell you was more formative than it sounds. He studied Philosophy and Classics at Augustana College, earned his M.Div. from Princeton Theological Seminary, and has spent his career as a Presbyterian pastor in the Twin Cities, most recently serving as “Acting Co-Executive Presbyter” of the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) It a title akin to a Bishop. He and his wife have called St. Paul home for many years. He is also, it turns out, the grandson of a man who was riding a motorcycle through Tulsa, Oklahoma on the night of May 31st, 1921 — and talked about it for the rest of his life. That inheritance is what brought Zach to The Race Card Project. Say What? Substack is a reader supported project kept alive by reader donations and the generosity of our community. It’s a really exciting model, but I need your help to keep it going. Subscribe so you never miss Say What?. Get full access to Say What? with Michele Norris at michelenorris.substack.com/subscribe

    49 min

  3. Feb 9

    What the World Needs to Know About Minnesota Right Now

    I was asked a question recently on air that has stayed with me. What does the world need to know about Minnesota right now? It came during a conversation about the aggressive immigration enforcement operations unfolding across the state — a conversation rooted in what I’d seen firsthand as a journalist reporting on the ground. I answered as a Minnesotan. As someone who understands the state’s rhythms. It’s silences. Its pride of place. But the more I thought about the question afterward, the more certain I became: no one person should answer it alone. Minnesota is more than a slogan. It is not a stereotype, though when people hear the word Minnesota, they often think of popular culture or pain points—Prince or plentiful lakes or the flat-oh’d accent in films like Fargo or a city in flames after the murder of George Floyd or the way the killings of Rene Good and Alex Pretti have inflamed the debate over immigration enforcement. Minnesota is now under a global spotlight and in moments like this — when a place is being defined from the outside, often through images of conflict or fear — it matters who gets to speak. So I asked the people who live there, who love it, who chose it, who left and still carry it with them. What does the world need to know about Minnesota right now? What came back wasn’t a rebuttal. It was a values statement. Melissa Rach has lived in Minnesota for 30 years and wants the world to know this : We are stoic but unyielding: We aren’t loud for the sake of noise. We are loud for the sake of justice. We are the North Star State: We consistently lead the nation in voter turnout (nearly 80% in 2020) because we believe our voices are our power. Maybe ICE didn’t realize that civics is a way of life in Minnesota. It is what makes us Minnesota. We carry the Constitution in our pockets. We’re used to the cold, but our hearts don’t freeze. When 3,000 federal agents descend on our streets for “Operation Metro Surge,” we don’t hide. We put on our yellow vests, we grab our cameras, and we stand on the sidewalk to bear witness. They can bring the “largest operation ever” to our doorstep, but they cannot break a city that views civic duty as a sacred oath. SAY WHAT? SUBSTACK is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Steve Ladwig was born and raised in Minnesota, but left for a time when he was in the Navy onboard submarines The one thing you always hear in the sub service is to have the persons to your left and right. You sacrifice everything for those to the left and to the right. That is what makes submarine crews so effective and a brotherhood. Minnesota is the same; it doesn’t matter if your neighbors to the right and left are Asian, Latino, or Somali. You sacrifice everything for your neighbors. We are Minnesota So let’s talk about the word, “Neighbor.” It is a word that echoes through so many of the responses. And people are not talking about folks who live next door. It is a big, elastic, open-armed concept that embraces the idea of beloved community. Lona Dallesandro, who moved to Minnesota in 2008, wrote this: “We’re good neighbors even when we’re not good friends. There is a line we won’t cross as it relates to how we care for each other - generally, people don’t want to see other people do badly here.” Another writer explained it through the patterns of daily life: “Empathy is ingrained in us. You don’t survive a cold winter without a village. Bars are tastier when they are shared. A campfire beer only hits the spot when you can toss one to a neighbor.” Rob Kimm added this; “Born and raised in northern MN, but have been in a lot of other places. It’s the only place I’ve ever heard the word ‘neighbor’ used as a verb. It’s not an accident of proximity, but an obligation to do something. To me, that explains a lot of how MN has responded to our neighbors being attacked.” In Minnesota, community is built for the long haul. Not for applause. For survival. To neighbor someone is to take responsibility for them. That, Kimm suggested, explains a lot about how Minnesotans have responded to seeing their neighbors targeted. Another lifelong Twin Cities resident traced that ethos through generations — from great-grandparents to parents — who taught him to share, to learn from others, to hold out a hand. “We can be a little reserved,” he wrote. “But make no mistake, our convictions run deep.” Several people suggested that the spirit of mutual aid springs from the cold, long winters. The months when survival is collective, whether you like it or not. LaurenWarren explains that surviving the state’s brutal winters is not a solo endeavor. “Every time it snows, you’ll see someone’s car get stuck, and it is your duty to help push them out, no matter what you’re doing, because the same thing will happen to you and you’ll need a stranger to help when it’s your turn. Right now, they are coming for thousands of people, so we have to help however we can because someday we will need help too.” Monta Hayner is a fly fishing guide and says this: “The long history of mutual support begins with farming, then farm co-ops, then food co-ops, then fighting against war (Women leagues for International Peace and Freedom), then accepting and supporting immigrants, especially asylum seekers from war and abuse.” I was born and raised in Minnesota. I grew up on the South Side of Minneapolis. My mother was born in Duluth. My grandmother was raised in Alexandria, MN, where she lived with her grandparents, who came to Minnesota as a black family in the 1800’s and were welcomed by a Catholic Church in Douglas County, that helped them get settled and start a business. I know that is not everyone’s experience. Minnesotans can be insular, and outsiders sometimes struggle to fit in. But there is a strong civic pact in the state, and from experience I know this: Even with that whole Minnesota Nice thing, folks in teh state are not always overtly friendly but they are fiercely loyal. Minnesotans are not performative. They don’t announce their values. They live them quietly — until they are forced into a zone where silence is not longer an option. “For people in Minnesota to be getting this loud,” one person wrote, “there must be something really wrong.” That line really resonates because Minnesota is not a state that rushes to outrage. It prides itself on being temperate and even subdued. Civic attitudes are shaped by consensus and community infrastructure. They are molded by the belief that showing up matters more than being seen. In normal circumstances, the guiding principle is that outward expressions of anger undermine the civic pact. There aer not normal times. “We’re good neighbors even when we’re not good friends. We embrace the outdoors in all its seasons. And we live by ‘we all do better when we all do better.” Minnesota’s population is still overwhelmingly white. About 80 percent of the state’s 5.7 million residents are white. But it has been experiencing a faster rate of diversity than the national average for several reasons. Minnesota’s meatpacking plants and agribusiness rely on diverse workforces. The state is also home to 18 Fortune 500 companies and several more on the Fortune 1000 list and many of those corporations have attracted diverse workers who appreciate the low cost of living, highly-ranked education systems, and world-class theater and musical venues in the Twin Cities. The state’s long tradition of generous social welfare programs is also a factor. The large population of Hmong, Somali, Burmese, Ethiopian, Liberian, Ukrainian and other newcomers is tied to robust resettlement programs, often run by religious groups. There have been tensions around immigration and resettlement to be sure, but Minnesota as a state has decided to embrace resettlement through strong sponsorship programs and job pipelines. That view was reflected in the stream of comments that rolled in from locals. “MN is home to everyone. We believe in community and acceptance, no matter who they are or how they got here.” In the torrent of comments I received, it was clear that this reached beyond belief — into practice and protocols. “We share. We break bread together. We give the coat off our backs so the other person can survive.” That may help explain why Minnesotans recognize each other anywhere. “When we move away, we find each other out in the wild. There’s a magnetic pull.” There was also a lot of humor in the thread. “The best thing I’ve seen,” someone joked, “is that Minnesota is what Texas tells itself it is.” But beneath that wit is steel. “Our diversity is our strength. We’re tough as hell. Creative problem solvers. Generous. Fiercely protective.” And a deep reservoir of pride. There is something I heard over and over again. “I’ve never been more proud to be a Minnesotan than right now.” I hope you will take the time to read through some of these longer statements. It’s worth it, whether you live in Minnesota or not because the residents there are dealing with a form of aggressive policing that could become more commonplace anywhere or everywhere. Damon Dempsey: We live for each other, and we will stand up for our communities. Our way of life is the way of life for all Americans. If we fall, it won’t be because we didn’t fight for us, the people of Minnesota, will fight till the end to protect our part of this nation, our God-given rights, our constitution, our rights as Americans. Take notes for the rest of America. Your state might be next. Don’t be fooled. Prepare yourself because we Minnesotans are holding the line. Wake up, America. Wake up. Juli Kuhne Rasmussen: Life-long Minnesotan. We are an interesting dichotomy. Many friends who have moved here say it can be

    1 min
  4. COVERAGE "Under Siege: Minneapolis in Crisis"

    Jan 16

    COVERAGE "Under Siege: Minneapolis in Crisis"

    Eric Newmark is a defense attorney based in the Twin Cities, where he has practiced law for 25 years. His work places him at the intersection of legal principle, the rule of law, and lived reality. We wanted to hear from him because he understands Minnesota’s civic and institutional landscape and because he was the defense attorney in an earlier December court case involving Jonathan Ross, the federal immigration agent who shot Rene Good on January 7 in South Minneapolis. In that earlier case, Newmark represented the defendant, who was accused of dragging Jonathan Ross during an immigration traffic stop back in June. Ross was one of the agents who approached a car driven by Carlos Munoz-Guatemala, an undocumented Mexican immigrant, and asked him to lower his window. Munoz-Guatemala allegedly only partially opened his window, and immigration officials used a tool to break a rear window to reach forward and unlock the door. Munoz-Guatemala allegedly put the car in drive and pulled forward with Ross’s arm still inside the vehicle. Ross was reportedly dragged at least 50 yards with his arm pinned inside the car and required 20 stitches. Munoz-Guatemala, who had been charged with sexually abusing a minor in 2022, was found guilty in the dragging case and is in jail. Newmark said he quickly realized that Ross was the same agent involved in that case when Department of Homeland Security Kristi Noem said the federal agent who shot Rene Good was an officer who had been dragged in June. SAY WHAT? Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. In this compelling discussion, Newmark discusses what he learned about Ross in that case, as well as the current tense situation in Minneapolis, where the federal law enforcement presence continues to escalate. Michele and Eric explore the implications of this occupation, the question of whether federal agents actually have “absolute immunity” as the administration suggests, and the broader impact on community trust and safety. The conversation delves into the historical context of policing in the city, highlighting the ongoing struggle for reform and justice in the wake of the George Floyd murder and other high-profile police shootings. This conversation offers a critical examination of the current state of affairs and the challenges faced by residents and local authorities alike. Take a listen and let us know what you think. ~~~ Note: We spoke to Eric Newmark before the Department of Justice decided to file charges against Minnesota Gov Tim Walz and and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey Fridy evening for alleging impeding law enforcement ABOVE “What we’re seeing in Minneapolis is essentially our entire city is under siege, under occupation.” Key Points: * The question of absolute immunity. * How current federal immigration tactics collide with police reforms that followed the killing of George Floyd. * The erosion of community trust when the “official” explanation is undermined by video evidence. “You have the absolute First Amendment right to use your cell phone to record anything you see in public. You have the right to blow your whistle. You have the right to warn your neighbors that ICE is in the area.” Key Points: * The laws that govern peaceful protest and public assembly. * The laws that govern cooperation with federal immigration agents. * The difference in the scope of work for federal immigration agents and local law enforcement. “I think Minneapolis and St Paul and Minnesota are being used as an example for everyone else to see ‘’here’s what happens when you don’t comply. Here’s what happens when you don’t vote for the president in three straight elections, or when your leaders fight back” Key Points: * The parameters for enacting marital law or invoking the Insurrection Act. * The concern that the protest could spill over into violence. * The question of whether Minnesota’s large business community will weigh in on the danger and disruptions throughout the state. (17 Fortune 500 companies are based in Minnesota). “If he was having some issues related to that incident that happened in June, he shouldn’t have been on the street. He shouldn’t have been carrying a weapon.” Key Points: * The intent to file additional motions before sentencing to ask for additional discovery that would explain the federal officer’s training and scope of mission. * Are federal agents trained to de-escalate tense crowd situations? * Concern among state lawyers about the road ahead and upholding the law when the guardrails around constitutional and legal parameters are being warped. Get full access to Say What? with Michele Norris at michelenorris.substack.com/subscribe

    15 min

  5. 11/19/2025

    INTERVIEW: "Guess what? Nobody's gonna be standing after I leave here!"

    If you’ve been watching The Morning Show on Apple TV+, then you know that the actress, Karen Pittman, has basically stolen the series this season as she transitioned from the loyal producer, willing to sacrifice everything for the network, to the frustrated employee willing to burn the whole place down. It has been a bit surreal to watch the fictional UBN network wrestle with some of the same ripped-from-the-headlines issues playing out in legacy media empires. It has also been delicious to watch the character known as Mia Jordan enter her villain era, as she calls it. Say What? Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. She tossed aside her sensible cardigans and tapped into her inner Anna Wintour with a jaw-dropping wardrobe and a knock-out strut. She has always had a burning gaze that hints at depths beyond the dialogue in the script, but this year those deep-set eyes are thoroughly weaponized. Mia Jordan is willing to put herself first for the first time, and what she is NOT willing to do anymore is avoid talking about the complexities of race or make sacrifices for people who don’t have her best interest in mind. I sat down recently to talk to Karen Pittman about her character’s evolution on The Morning Show, the places and people who provided inspiration for her character, and her other breakout role this year as an over protective mother in the Netflix series Forever that reimagines Judy Blume’s classic story of an ill-fated teenage romance with a Black cast set in modern day Los Angeles and Martha’s Vineyard. Produced by Mara Brock Akil , Forever was a breakout summer hit, exploring family, class, and generational dynamics that we do not see enough on our screens. As a wealthy Black woman raising a neurodivergent son, Karen Pittman brought a ferocity to the role that hovered between protection and weary disdain for anyone who might prevent him from achieving the goal (or perhaps we should say, her goal) of attending college and securing a respectable and financially stable perch in the job market. She fights for her son, but does she fully see him and his dreams? And, much like her role as producer Mia Jordan in The Morning Show, her portrayal of the hard-charging finance exec Dawn Edwards in the series Forever comes with surprising and deeply satisfying twists. She allows herself to be so intense that she is relatable and yet on the edge of unlikable. And then, when life happens, the character unclenches her fists and reveals deep wells of compassion that provoke awe and comfort in the viewer, in part because we see that the evolution is so deeply uncomfortable for the person we are watching on screen. Meeting a teenager’s needs means letting go of the script she had imagined for the boy that is now stepping into his manhood. That will hit home for a lot of people. Karen Pittman signed on for these roles years ago, but they are arriving on screen at a moment where they feel fully of the current moment. Mia Jordan in The Morning Show is passed over for a promotion at a time when more than 350,000 Black women have been ushered out of the workplace in America, and so many of those who remain on the job are standing on shaky ground. And the fictional parents in the series Forever, who are raising brown children in a world that is increasingly hostile to people of color after years of measurable progress, are mirroring the concerns and conversations that real people are wrestling with all over the country right now. I loved this conversation with Karen, and I bet you will too. Listen, and as always, let us know what you think and what you expect from the season finale?!? Let me know whatcha think in the chat. Big world. Lotta stories. Always listening. Michele GET READY for the Season 4 Finale! Say What? Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Say What? with Michele Norris at michelenorris.substack.com/subscribe

    35 min

  6. 11/01/2025

    Baldwin: The Fire They Tried to Extinguish. How James Baldwin learned to love himself. His lost battles. Hidden loves and his enduring legacy.

    Although James Baldwin died in 1987, he feels very much alive in this fractured moment in America. His writings, his self-aware posture in photographs, his clap-back videos are all fuel for the fire that rages in a culture of memeification on social media. But Baldwin’s true legacy is minimized and flattened when served up in small doses on our hand-held devices. He was a complex man who lived many lives across many cultures and countries, in shifting landscapes. And his books that are still in wide circulation reveal his genius, but the origin story behind a writer’s unique perspective is never spelled out clearly on the page. We see the words. But you don’t fully see the writer. You have to dig deeper to find that. A new book by Nicholas Boggs called Baldwin: A Love Story excavates Baldwin’s life in a New York Times bestselling biography that helps us understand Baldwin in new ways. If you take the time to listen to this interview and read his book (I hope you will do both), you might be amazed at what you learn about Baldwin. He wrote a little-known children’s book. He made three suicide attempts. An early viewing of a Bette Davis film helped him take pride in his own heavy-lidded eyes, which were the source of scorn and constant hazing. SAY WHAT? Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Many will automatically associate Baldwin with Paris, but he also lived in Switzerland and Corsica, and much of his most important work was done in Istanbul. Baldwin walked away from a film project about The Autobiography of Malcom X because a producer considered casting a white man in the lead role. (Sidney Potter, James Earl Jones, and Charlton Heston were under consideration. Heston would have had to be darkened up a bit.) Boggs reports that Billy Dee Williams was the actor Baldwin had in mind. Baldwin was not allowed to speak at the March on Washington for fear that he would be too inflammatory or go off script. Instead, Burt Lancaster read his speech. (Yes, you read that right) Baldwin was pilloried in the latter part of his life and deemed passé by publications like Time Magazine that had only years earlier placed him on the cover. We dive into all of this in our interview. Nick Boggs uses a new and ingenious framing to explore the iconic writer’s life and legacy. Unlike many previous biographies that focus primarily on Baldwin’s public and literary life, Boggs uses both narrative nonfiction and a traditional biography to examine how key relationships in Baldwin’s life shaped his work and outlook. The book looks at family, friendships, and rivalries, but the core tentpoles are four intimate and artistic relationships with men Baldwin loved deeply: The Black American painter Beauford Delaney, the Swiss painter Lucien Happersberger, the Turkish actor Engin Cezzar, and the French artist Yoran Cazac, who co-authored a children’s book with Baldwin. * Mentor/painter Beauford Delaney * Swiss painter-lover Lucien Happersberger * Turkish actor/collaborator Engin Cezzar * French artist/love-figure Yoran Cazac By framing Baldwin’s life through these relationships — emotional, romantic, artistic, sometimes combative — he draws out how Baldwin’s private life and public work intertwine and provide a backdrop to better understand how Baldwin navigated a world that was not always ready to accept or acknowledge his genius, but seemed more than willing to weaponize his longing and vulnerability. Boggs traveled to Harlem, Paris, Switzerland, Istanbul, Africa, the American South, and the South of France, tracing Baldwin’s multi-culti, transnational life. He spent a decade drawing on newly unearthed archival material, original interviews, and rich research. This was a RICH and multi-layered conversation about a man that means so much to so many but is nonetheless still so misunderstood. For some, he’s a civil rights activist who brought A-listers together to interrogate racism. Legions see him as a gifted writer, poet, filmmaker, director, fashion icon, and a clapback king who lives forever in a constant stream of memes online that let us almost speak him in the present tense. He was an early LGBTQ warrior before the world had the language to even talk openly about sexuality and gender agency. He was/is an example of reinvention, a spinner of inspirational prose, and a former childhood street preacher who never fully stepped away from the proverbial pulpit. I hope you will watch and listen to the full interview with Nicholas Boggs here on Substack. I also hope you will take the teen to dive into. his book. It is the first biography of Baldwin in more than 30 years and this work adds much to our understanding of Baldwin’s life and legacy. And finally, I hope you will share your thoughts on the book, Baldwin, and his influence on your own life. THANK YOU, NICK, for making time for this. PS. The Baldwin bit of wisdom that I return to time and time again: “You have to decide who you are and force the world to deal with you, not with its ideal of you” - James Baldwin. My best to all of you, Michele! References and Extras: Debate: James Baldwin v. William F. Buckley (1965) Black Atlantic Accent on Dick Cavett James Baldwin and Nikki Giovanni “A Conversation”. Full Broadcast Video Thanks for reading! This post is public so feel free to share it. ABOUT NICHOLAS BOGGS: Nicholas Boggs is the New York Times bestselling author of Baldwin: A Love Story, the first major biography of the iconic figure in over three decades. He also co-edited a new edition of Baldwin’s collaboration with French artist Yoran Cazac, Little Man, Little Man: A Story of Childhood (2018). He is the recipient of a 2023 Whiting Creative Nonfiction Grant and fellowships from the Leon Levy Center for Biography, the Scholars-in-Residence program at the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, the Gilder Lehrman Center and Beinecke Library at Yale, and the National Endowment for the Humanities, as well as residencies at Yaddo and MacDowell. Most recently he was the 2024-2025 John Hope Franklin Fellow at the National Humanities Center. Born and raised in Washington, D.C., he received his BA from Yale and his PhD from Columbia, both in English, as well as an MFA in Creative Writing from American University. He now resides in New York City. Get full access to Say What? with Michele Norris at michelenorris.substack.com/subscribe

    59 min

  7. 10/24/2025

    The East Wing Was Obliterated in Less Time Than it Takes to Hang the Ornaments in the White House.

    When I first saw those ghastly images of the demolition of the East Wing, one of the first people I thought about was former White House secretary Deesha Dyer. Her work post was in the East Wing, near the suite of offices for First Lady Michelle Obama and her staff. I knew the destruction of that building would hit her hard, and I also knew that she would have a special insight into what was lost in all that rubble, so I invited her to join me for a conversation. We reflect on the emotional gut punch of losing such a historic space —the East Wing’s special role as a public-facing foyer that welcomed thousands of visitors —and what the demolition means for national identity and a democracy under threat. Dyer also shares memories, insights, and insider knowledge, noting the timing of the demolition is particularly galling. The White House would normally be revving up the engines for the Holiday season, a process Dyer describes in our conversation. And yes, the East Wing was obliterated in less time than it takes to hang the ornaments and decorate the White House. It took just four days to erase a structure meant to stand strong into the future both for the building’s residents and for the nation as a whole. It’s all gone, reduced to a tangled mass of brick, concrete and steel. But our memories remain, and so must our steely resolve to hold on to Democracy and the foundational principle that the White House belongs to no one person or one administration. It belongs to the people of this country. All the people of this country. In my conversation with Deesha, we also walked down memory lane and discussed our most cherished memories of our time in the East Wing. So many of us treasure photos from tours, holiday celebrations, work accomplished, and meetings held inside that wing. I raised my kids in DC. I used to cover the White House for ABC News. My Husband worked there in two administrations. Our kids visited the space first in strollers, and then in stride rights as toddlers and eventually as young adults. Our grandson, thankfully got to marvel at the magical, almost other worldly decorations. All those photos from all those visits to the White House, and the East Wing in particular, that sit in boxes, scrapbooks, and on our phones over the years are now historic relics that must be found and preserved for posterity. The East Wing is gone. Our memories are forever. I pray that the art and artifacts inside the building were saved. I hope that the demolition of the East Wing is a North Star of sorts that reminds us that democracy can also be obliterated if Americans don’t stand up and fight for it. It’s a big world. Lotta stories. Michele Do you have an East Wing memory? If you do, we’d love to hear it or see it in the comments below. Say What? Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Thanks for reading! This post is public so feel free to share it. REFERNCES AND NOTES: Behind the Scenes in the East Wing: Social Secretaries to the First Ladies From the archives: Jacqueline Kennedy’s televised tour of the White House in 1962 #InsideTheEastWing: Letters to the First Lady Deesha Dyer: Deesha Dyer is a philanthropist, award-winning strategist and author, on-the-ground community organizer, and executive operations expert. Working her way up from a 31-year old community college student who served as a White House intern for President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama, Deesha ended her government career as the White House social secretary, a highly-coveted senior position. She is currently the founder and president of social impact agency, Hook & Fasten where she coordinates transformational partnerships by utilizing a company’s funds, skills, resources or product to ignite sustainable change in communities. Get full access to Say What? with Michele Norris at michelenorris.substack.com/subscribe

    31 min

  8. 08/11/2025

    "My Peggy" Michele Norris talks Season 3 Finale with The Gilded Age Co-Executive Producer, Erica Armstrong Dunbar

    This Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Special thank you to the fans at @wearedagild for their support and questions! ABOUT ERICA ARMSTRONG DUNBAR: Erica Armstrong Dunbar received her B.A. in History and Africana Studies from the University of Pennsylvania and her Ph.D. in History from Columbia University. Her area of expertise centers the lives of eighteenth and nineteenth century Black women who lived in what would become the United States of America. Her work focuses on the history of slavery and freedom, social history, urban history, and women’s history. While Dunbar is committed to the production of scholarly literature, she is deeply invested in more public facing work—scholarship that reaches large general audiences through television, film, radio, and podcasts. Dunbar’s first book, A Fragile Freedom: African American Women and Emancipation in the Antebellum City was published by Yale University in 2008. Her second book, Never Caught: The Washingtons’ Relentless Pursuit of Their Runaway Slave, Ona Judge (Simon & Schuster) was a finalist for the National Book Award in nonfiction and a co-winner of the 2018 Frederick Douglass Book Prize. The young readers version of Never Caught (Aladdin/Simon and Schuster) was published in January 2019. In the fall of 2019, Dunbar published She Came To Slay: The Life and Times of Harriet Tubman, an accessible biography of one of the most remarkable social activists of the 19th century. Dunbar’s op-eds and essays in outlets such as the New York Times, The Nation, TIME, Essence, and the New York Review of Books, her commentary in media outlets such as CNN and the LA Times, and her appearances in documentaries such as “The Abolitionists” an American Experience production on PBS, the History Channel’s biopic of George Washington, Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s Black Patriots, and Ken Burns’ Benjamin Franklin, place her at the center of America’s public history. More recently, Dunbar has expanded her audience by serving as Co-Executive Producer on HBO’s hit television series, “The Gilded Age.” From 2019-2022, Dunbar served as the National Director of the Association of Black Women Historians–the only professional organization focused on Black women’s history. From 2011-2018, she served as the inaugural Director of the Program in African American History at the Library Company of Philadelphia. Get full access to Say What? with Michele Norris at michelenorris.substack.com/subscribe

    58 min

  9. 08/06/2025

    "Gilded Girls" Michele Norris interviews The Gilded Age Co-Executive Producer, Erica Armstrong Dunbar

    This Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. ABOUT ERICA ARMSTRONG DUNBAR: Erica Armstrong Dunbar received her B.A. in History and Africana Studies from the University of Pennsylvania and her Ph.D. in History from Columbia University. Her area of expertise centers the lives of eighteenth and nineteenth century Black women who lived in what would become the United States of America. Her work focuses on the history of slavery and freedom, social history, urban history, and women’s history. While Dunbar is committed to the production of scholarly literature, she is deeply invested in more public facing work—scholarship that reaches large general audiences through television, film, radio, and podcasts. Dunbar’s first book, A Fragile Freedom: African American Women and Emancipation in the Antebellum City was published by Yale University in 2008. Her second book, Never Caught: The Washingtons’ Relentless Pursuit of Their Runaway Slave, Ona Judge (Simon & Schuster) was a finalist for the National Book Award in nonfiction and a co-winner of the 2018 Frederick Douglass Book Prize. The young readers version of Never Caught (Aladdin/Simon and Schuster) was published in January 2019. In the fall of 2019, Dunbar published She Came To Slay: The Life and Times of Harriet Tubman, an accessible biography of one of the most remarkable social activists of the 19th century. Dunbar’s op-eds and essays in outlets such as the New York Times, The Nation, TIME, Essence, and the New York Review of Books, her commentary in media outlets such as CNN and the LA Times, and her appearances in documentaries such as “The Abolitionists” an American Experience production on PBS, the History Channel’s biopic of George Washington, Kareem Abdul Jabbar’s Black Patriots, and Ken Burns’ Benjamin Franklin, place her at the center of America’s public history. More recently, Dunbar has expanded her audience by serving as Co-Executive Producer on HBO’s hit television series, “The Gilded Age.” From 2019-2022, Dunbar served as the National Director of the Association of Black Women Historians–the only professional organization focused on Black women’s history. From 2011-2018, she served as the inaugural Director of the Program in African American History at the Library Company of Philadelphia. TRANSCRIPT WITH LINKS TO RESOURCES Michele Norris (00:08) I hope you have a strong sense of how much people love this show. I mean, they just have gone in deep and hard. And on Sunday nights, I just imagine that people are sitting with their own little cups of tea, talking to the TV, and then everyone spends the entire week talking about it afterwards. So thank you so much for all that you have brought to the show in terms of depth and purpose, and of course, historic accuracy. I mean, the show really does reflect your work and your spirit. Erica Dunbar (00:43) Sunday nights, after about 9.55 PM, my phone goes bananas, like every, every Sunday. You know, I always say the same thing. I know, keep watching. You know, I can't, of course, reveal anything, but it's really, I don't know. It's, this season in particular has struck a chord. with so many viewers. And I think what tickles me the most is that our viewership is growing across demographics, ⁓ interests. People who you think wouldn't necessarily watch the show are totally watching the show. This Substack is reader-supported. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Michele Norris (01:31) Yeah, they're totally watching it. So we are talking to Erica Armstrong Dunbar at a really interesting point in the run of this latest season. If you watched Sunday night show, you know that it ended quite literally with a bang. There is only one more episode left in the season. Is that correct? So we're coming up on the season finale and Erica has brought so much to the show, depth, spirit, historic accuracy. And we're gonna talk to her about all of that. First of all, Erica, how did you get involved in this? Julian Fellows, who writes the show, also wrote Downton Abbey. ⁓ Did you knock on his door? Did he knock on your door? How did this happen? Erica Dunbar (02:14) No, no, I did not knock on Lord fellow's door. I wish that ⁓ I had, you know, had those kinds of connections, but no, ⁓ back in 2019, ⁓ when the show was sort of still in development. And I can talk a little bit about sort of the show originating really with NBC Universal. And then they're becoming a sort of Michele Norris (02:41) You Erica Dunbar (02:43) partnership with HBO, ⁓ one of the executive producers, David Crockett, had reached out to me. And he said, listen, you know, I'm working on a show. It was very sort of not quite cloak and dagger-y, but I didn't know the specifics of the show. ⁓ And he said, ⁓ I understand you're an expert in African-American women's history in the 19th century. And we have a storyline in our show that centers a black woman in the 19th century. And I'm wondering if you'd be willing to take a look at some scripts and to weigh in on historical accuracy and to just sort of give us your thoughts. And I was like, Okay, sure. I had no idea what the show was. I didn't know the title of the show, nor did I know the writer. you know, I signed a million NDAs and then they sent me, I think it was two scripts at first. And, you know, I did what historian professors do, like I marked it up. You know, I just read it and wrote, Erica Dunbar (04:05) sort of notes on the side and did a sort of ⁓ light redlining, red line marks on the scripts. And I returned them. And ⁓ that was that. I sent them to the producer. And shortly afterwards, I don't remember how much time passed, not much, ⁓ I got a call from the producer and he said, hey, listen, we really appreciated your comments. ⁓ and corrections and, the creator of the show would like to meet you. And I said, okay. And he said, Julian fellows is the creator of the show. I was like, wait, freeze. Like Julian fellows as in Downton, like the show that I watch all of the time. And he said, yes, he's the creator of the show. told me. Michele Norris (04:54) Yes. Erica Dunbar (05:03) the title and he said, um, Julian will be up in Newport. We're scouting locations and can we fly you up to meet him? Um, uh, from, was in Philadelphia and, uh, I said, okay, be happy to. And so, you know, it was a quick visit and I showed up and you know, that moment when you think you're just having a meeting. But then you walk into the room and you realize it's a job interview. It was sort of like that ⁓ Julian, as well as several of the other ⁓ creatives, producers, were sitting at this table. It was very kind of like heavily wood paneled in Newport, Rhode Island. And we just started kind of talking about his vision behind the show and his vision in particular. Erica Dunbar (05:58) for ⁓ Peggy Scott and the decision to have to focus on a black family. And he asked me, said, you know, I've read this book called Black Gotham ⁓ that ⁓ follows the life ⁓ of, I said, I know, Philip White. And he said, you know the book? said, yeah. Well, my friend Carla Peterson wrote that book. And he was like, ⁓ OK, so you understand? I said, yes. It really sort of it's a family history that talks about ⁓ kind of Black New York, more specifically Black Brooklyn at that time period. And so we talked, talked. And the next thing I know, ⁓ Julian said, well, we would love to have you join the team. And I said, sure. And I literally walked out and I called my husband. said, I think I just got a job. I don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm assuming I'll be like doing history stuff. And so of course, later on, you know, I came on originally as a historical consultant for, and someone who was, I would argue, doing kind of sensitivity reads for, for now. Michele Norris (06:56) Hahaha! So we should say that every week we see your name prominently as co-executive producer. And every time I see it, I just yelp a little bit. I am so proud of you. Erica Dunbar (07:28) Thank you. I sort of feel a little bit like ⁓ Jack the clockmaker in that I kind of got the promotion where I came in as a consultant, just kind of weighing in on historical accuracy. And then over time, you know, I was kind of working more with the creatives on the show and I was promoted to a consulting producer. And then ⁓ over time, again, I was ⁓ promoted to a co-executive producer. And for anyone who is a historian and academic like me, this is stuff that, just doesn't happen to us at all. Michele Norris (08:14) Well, can I get an interruption for…anybody, even in Hollywood, to make that leap. I executive producer titles, co, full, whatever it is, they are not handed out like candy. It is a rare thing. And so it says so much about the importance of your contributions and your centrality in the show. So when you met Julian Fellows, he had imagined Peggy Scott already. How did you help him? Erica Dunbar (08:32) Thank you. Michele Norris (08:41) fill out her storyline and her family. Where do we see your contributions in her story? Erica Dunbar (08:49) Yeah, I feel comfortable talking about this now in part because Denee Benton, who plays Peggy Scott, has been very vocal and transparent about the changes in Peggy's storyline. And what I'll say and what I said to the creative team back in 2019, 2020 is that it's my job and my mission and my goal to represent black people in ways that are authentic and truthful. ⁓ And to be very honest, it was, I saw this as an opportunity to do television around black people at a certain moment in time with a different kind of storyline that we haven't seen on television. And as someone who focuses on the 19th century, and in particular, the ⁓ sort of stories of slavery and the afterlife of slavery. This just seemed ripe with potential.

    59 min
  • 9 Episodes

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Michele Norris on culture, news, art, cuisine... & all the things in between. It's a BIG world. Lotta Stories. I'm Listening. michelenorris.substack.com

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