Fabric Podcast

Fabric - Minneapolis

Welcome to the Fabric podcast! Fabric is a thoughtful, progressive experiment in being church, based in South Minneapolis. We love hosting space where curiosity, connection, and inclusive belonging have space to stretch out and get comfy. Take the time you need to explore what we’re about, and when you’re ready, connect however feels best. The conversation is always fresh! Fabric is church, for the rest of us. #FabricMpls

  1. Jun 14

    The Book of Forgiving | Truth Before Reconciliation

    Reconciliation isn't the same thing as forgiveness. We've probably been confusing the two for too long, and it’s had real consequences for real people. In this episode, let’s look honestly at what genuine repair actually requires, who's responsible for what, and why it's worth the hard work of getting it right.    LINKS: Book of Forgiving  |  Connect  |  YouTube  |  Coming Up TRANSCRIPT: Ian calls kids up and shares puppets (all the animal characters from Wally and Freya) Setup: We've been talking about Wally and Freya for a few weeks now. But there were other animals in this story— a whole community. And when something happens between two people, the whole community has to figure out how to respond. I need some helpers. Each of you gets a character. Facilitate a short, lively role play — you narrate, kids voice their characters: Wally did something that hurt Freya. Now everybody has to decide what to do.Name each option clearly as kids play them out: Get even — someone decides to do something mean back to Wally. Throw a tantrum — someone just explodes with feelings. Ask for help — someone goes to a trusted adult. Forgive — someone decides to let it go and move forward. Choose the relationship — someone decides whether they even want to keep being Wally's friend. Wally & Freya book Here's what I want you to notice: in any situation where someone gets hurt, everybody has choices. Not just one choice, but a whole menu of them. Some of those choices help. Some of them make things worse. And some of them are really, really hard. The hardest one (and the most interesting one) is what we're talking about today. The word you are going to hear me use is called “reconciliation,” and it means making a relationship better. It's not the same thing as forgiveness. They're related, but they're different. Here's the difference: Forgiveness is something YOU do, inside yourself. Reconciliation is something that happens BETWEEN PEOPLE. It takes both people showing up. Painting rocks… what are words we could use? The Distinction We Were Not Taught We have spent this whole series untangling forgiveness from the myths we inherited about it. Today we untangle one more, and it might be the most practically important one. Forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. We use them interchangeably. We shouldn't. Collapsing them into one action creates real damage: It pressures the wounded person to restore a relationship before they feel safe. It lets the person who caused harm off the hook for the actual work of repair. It produces what we might call false reconciliation, a surface-level "we're fine" that buries the wound rather than healing it. The Tutus: "The preference is always to renew unless there is a question of safety." But — and this is important — reconciliation is the fourth step of the Fourfold Path, not the first. You cannot skip to it. And sometimes, honestly, you never get there. To be clear: not reaching reconciliation is not s sign of failure either. That's reality. Lessons from the TRC In 1995, Nelson Mandela appointed Archbishop Desmond Tutu to chair South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission… a body tasked with the nearly impossible: helping a nation begin to heal from decades of apartheid-era atrocity. The TRC was empowered to grant amnesty to perpetrators who confessed their crimes truthfully and completely to the commission. Not automatically. Not cheaply. Truth first. Tutu's final remarks after submitting the report were: "We have looked the beast in the eye. Our past will no longer keep us hostage." Notice what the commission was called. Not the Reconciliation Commission. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Truth comes first. Always. What Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the TRC understood, and what we so often get backwards, is that healing actually does have an order. You cannot reconcile what you have not first actually named. You cannot repair what no one has acknowledged was broken. Skipping truth in the name of peace doesn't produce peace. It produces a ceasefire. Those are different things. The TRC also knew its limits. The commission's final report recommended prosecution in cases where amnesty was not sought or was denied. Reconciliation and accountability were held together, not traded against each other. That's the model. The Asymmetry of Reconciliation Here's something the Tutus make explicit that almost nobody else does: the person who was hurt and the person who caused harm have fundamentally different work to do in reconciliation. The path is not the same for both. For the person who was hurt: Your work is the Fourfold Path: telling the story, naming the hurt, granting forgiveness, and then deciding whether to renew or release the relationship. You do not owe anyone reconciliation. Forgiveness is yours to give on your own timeline. Reconciliation requires the other person to show up. The Tutus: "Ask for what you need from the perpetrator in order to renew or release the relationship." That's your right. An apology. An explanation. A changed behavior. To never see them again. All of these are legitimate. For the person who caused harm— the Tutus' framework from Chapter 8 is equally clear: ADMIT the wrong. Witness the ANGUISH Don't argue, don't cross-examine, don't justify. Just listen to what your actions cost the other person… APOLOGIZE genuinely… When you apologize, you are restoring the dignity that you have violated, and acknowledging that the offense has happened. ASK for forgiveness… and honor whatever answer you receive. Make AMENDS or restitution wherever possible. This asymmetry matters because we almost never name it. We treat reconciliation as if both parties are equally responsible for making it happen. But if someone caused harm and hasn't done their work— hasn't admitted it, hasn't witnessed the anguish, hasn't asked for forgiveness— placing the burden of reconciliation equally on the wounded person is just another form of harm. What Gets in teh Way Why is our culture so bad at this? A few honest reasons: Cheap accountability. "I said sorry, what more do you want?" An apology that doesn't include witnessing the other person's pain, or making any effort toward repair, isn't accountability. It's a bid to end the discomfort of being the one who caused harm. Forced and premature reconciliation. Especially in families, churches, and workplaces (read: systems with power dynamics!) pressure to reconcile before the wounded person is ready, or before the person who caused harm has done their work, is coercion masked as grace. No shared vocabulary or ritual. This is a distinctly American problem. We have almost no cultural practices around genuine repair. We have legal settlements. We have awkward apologies. We don't have a process. The Tutus give us one. Most of us were never taught it. The fear that accountability and restoration can't coexist. They can. The TRC proved it — imperfectly, controversially, but really. Truth and healing are not enemies. They need each other. Sometimes, Reconciliation isn’t Possible or Appropriate. Some people may be carrying experiences of abuse, violence, or sustained harm Some relationships should not be restored. The Tutus themselves say the preference is always to renew… unless there is a question of safety. Safety is not a small caveat. It is the first question. Releasing a relationship— choosing not to restore it— is not a failure of forgiveness. It is sometimes the most brave thing a person can do. You can forgive someone and never speak to them again… it’s totally not a contradiction. Reconciliation requires two willing, honest, accountable people. If only one person is doing the work, what you have is not reconciliation. It's one person carrying everything alone… again. The Reconciliation Map Here's a practice to take into this week... Think of a relationship in your life where there has been harm… either harm done to you, or harm you caused. Ask yourself honestly: Where are we actually in this process? Has the story been told — honestly, out loud, to someone? Has the hurt been named — the feelings underneath the facts? Has forgiveness been granted — or is it still in process? Has there been any movement toward renewing or releasing the relationship? You don't have to be further along than you are. This isn't a checklist for shame. It's just a snapshot, and an honest look at where you actually stand, so you can take the next step that's actually yours to take. Wrap-up Next week is our last week together in this series. We're going to flip the question one final time and ask: what does it mean to be forgivable? What's my role in the harm I've caused — and what does it look like to become someone who can be forgiven? This is hard, slow, important work. You're doing it!

    30 min
  2. Jun 9

    The Book of Forgiving | Getting Free

    Here's the uncomfortable truth: forgiveness isn't primarily for the other person… it's for you. (Ugh, we know.) This week we explore what it might mean to stop letting a past wound have the final word over your present life.   LINKS: Book of Forgiving  |  Connect  |  YouTube  |  Coming Up TRANSCRIPT:   Retell from Freya's perspective — what was she feeling as Wally spoke? Name those feelings out loud and mark a stone with washable marker for each one as you name them: Angry. (mark) Sad. (mark) Embarrassed. (mark) Lonely. (mark) "Look at this stone now. Pretty marked up. That's what it looks like when we've been carrying a lot." Watch the video — Freya bringing Wally back, returning him to their community. Unpack: What did Freya choose? She didn't pretend it didn't happen. She didn't say it was okay. But she chose something — and whatever she chose, it changed things. We're going to do something with these stones in a little while. Hold onto yours. Hand out stones and washable markers to kids. Send them back to seats to mark up their stones and work on kids Sunday Papers. Adults — I want to talk to you now. But kids, you're welcome to listen in! Where We’ve Been Brief catch-up for anyone new or returning: We're in The Book of Forgiving — drawing from Desmond and Mpho Tutu's framework for how forgiveness actually works. The Fourfold Path: Tell the Story → Name the Hurt → Grant Forgiveness → Renew or Release the Relationship. In the first week: We told our stories. Last week: We named the hurt: the feelings underneath the facts. Today: we take the hardest step. We talk about what it actually means to grant forgiveness. The Uncomfortable Truth Here's where we have to say something that cuts against almost everything our culture tells us about forgiveness: Forgiveness is not primarily for the other person. It's FOR YOU. (ugh, I know.) That feels wrong at first. It can even feel like a betrayal of the seriousness of what was done. If I forgive, doesn't that let them off the hook? No. And we'll come back to that. But first… someone wise once put it this way: "Forgiveness is the act of giving up all hope of a better past." Sit with that for a second. Forgiveness isn’t giving up on justice. Or saying that what happened was okay. Its not pretending it didn't happen. But instead, forgiveness is releasing the white-knuckled grip on the belief (conscious or not) that somehow, if we hold on tight enough, stay angry enough, rehearse it enough, the past will change. It won't. And the holding on costs us. What the Holding Costs Us This isn't just spiritual intuition. There’s reliable research proving it. When we hold onto unresolved hurt— ruminating, replaying, rehearsing— our bodies respond as if the threat is still happening. Cortisol stays elevated. The nervous system stays on alert. Over time this contributes to measurable increases in anxiety, depression, cardiovascular stress, and immune suppression, among other truly serious health issues. We are not built to carry this indefinitely. The body keeps the score, and it charges interest. If we want to “make America healthy again,” it turns out denial just isn’t actually gonna do it. Developing cultural practices around forgiving and healing, though? That’s the ticket. The Tutus frame the alternative this way: in the Revenge Cycle, we reject our pain and try to make it go away by hurting the person who hurt us. In the Forgiveness Cycle, we face our pain. We don't deny it or minimize it. And we choose to move toward healing instead. The Tutus: "In the Revenge Cycle, we reject our pain and suffering and believe that by hurting the person who hurt us our pain will go away." It doesn't. It never has. It simply multiplies…  There’s all sorts of bumper sticker opportunities here: “hurt people hurt people” The trap: waiting to forgive until the other person apologizes. They may never. They might not even know or appreciate what they did. They may never. But if your freedom is contingent on their remorse, they hold a lot of unearned power over you. It lives rent-free in your head. What Forgiveness is Not… Clearing the Ground Again Because this step gets misused more than any other, it's worth naming clearly what granting forgiveness does NOT mean (this is a real “sorry not sorry” moment for repeating this pretty much every week, but we’re untangling a real knot here): It does not mean what was done to you was okay. It does not mean you forget. It does not mean you reconcile. (Forgiveness and reconciliation are separate acts — we'll talk about that next week.) It does not mean the other person deserves it or has earned it. It does not mean you have to tell them. The Tutus: "Forgiveness is a choice. Forgiving is how we move from victim to hero in our own story."  And honestly, I love being the hero of my own story, but when it comes to pain, I don’t need to be a hero, I just want agency… And this is key: you can pursue justice and forgiveness at the same time. One does not cancel the other. You can hold someone accountable AND release the stranglehold their actions have on your inner life. These are not in competition. It’s not one or the other. GRANTING FORGIVENESS… WHAT IT ACTUALLY IS So what IS it then? At its core, the Tutus describe granting forgiveness as an act of RECLAIMING YOUR HUMANITY— and in doing so, recognizing the humanity of the person who hurt you. Not excusing them. Not elevating them. But refusing to reduce either of you to the worst moment between you. This is where the Tutu framework gets genuinely hard. Because recognizing the humanity of someone who hurt you; someone who may have done something terrible… it can feel like a betrayal. But here's what Desmond Tutu learned in the shadow of apartheid, sitting across from perpetrators of atrocity: to call someone a monster is actually to let them OFF THE HOOK. Monsters can't help what they do. Humans can. Naming someone's humanity–  their capacity to choose, and to have chosen badly— is what makes them accountable. And it's what releases you from defining yourself by what they did. The Tutus write: "We know we are healing when we are able to tell a new story." Not a story in which the wound never happened. A story in which the wound is no longer the main character. This is what it looks like in practice: You stop organizing your life around the person who hurt you. You stop letting their actions have veto power over your contentment or joy, your relationships, or your sense of self. You begin— slowly, imperfectly— to live forward instead of backward. It starts feeling less like a feeling and more like a direction. You turn your face toward something other than the wound. Again. And again. That's the practice. Kids Back Up to Close Invite kids back up… talk about those marks on stones. Forgiveness is the process of remembering that “I am not the things that happened to me.” I am not this mark… or that mark…” Those things hurt, and I have feelings about the person that did that thing to me… but I’m going to choose to be confident in who I am, how I treat others, and I get to make choices about my own self… that person doesn’t get to make decisions about me for me.” Dip stones in water.  We’ll talk more about what happens in our relationships next week, and we’ll learn about how Wally & Freya figured that out for themselves and their community of friends. Closing Invitation Now we do something together. "If you've been marking up your stone — kids, adults, anyone — I want to invite you to come forward in a moment and dip it in the water." Brief explanation of what this means and doesn't mean: "This isn't a magic trick. Dipping your stone doesn't mean you're over it. It doesn't mean what happened was okay. It doesn't mean you've completed something." "It's a gesture. A small act of intention. You're saying: I don't want to be defined by this forever. I want to begin to get free." "The Tutus write that we wash the stone — and it's a cleansing, not an erasing. The stone is still the stone. You are still you. But something has been released." Invite people forward — quietly, no pressure, in their own time — to dip their stones in water. Let the room breathe. Music underneath if possible. Closing Next week: reconciliation. What does it actually look like to renew or release a relationship? What's required? What's possible? Come back. A simple benediction: You are more than what was done to you. Go live like it.

    32 min
  3. May 31

    The Book of Forgiving | Permission Granted

    Forgiveness has a pace of its own, and sometimes the most honest thing we can do is admit we're not there yet. This episode explores what it means to give ourselves (and each other) permission to be in process, without the pressure to be further along than we actually are.    LINKS: Book of Forgiving  |  Connect  |  YouTube  |  Coming Up   TRANSCRIPT: Brief framing before reading: We're talking about forgiveness in this series. About what happens when someone hurts us — or when we hurt someone else. And about the choices we have when that happens. I'm going to read you the first half of a book today. We're going to stop in the middle on purpose because the most important part of the story for TODAY is actually what happens right... here. And we're going to finish it next week. Read first half of Wally and Freya. Brief unpack after reading: What's happening in the story: someone got hurt. Both of them, actually. And now they have a choice. Two roads: get even, stay hurt… OR something harder, and maybe even braver. Forgiveness doesn't always happen right away. It takes practice. And the very first steps are: tell somebody you trust what happened, and then tell about what it felt like. When somebody does something that hurts me, I feel sad, and kind of mad. Sometimes it feels like I don’t matter much to them. Just saying that out loud is an important thing to do! In the story, Wally and Freya are both sad. Both hurt. And now they have a choice to make. So do we. We'll find out what they choose next week. The Stone — Kids Practice Give each child a stone. This stone is like the hurt we carry when someone has hurt our feelings, or our bodies, or our hearts. It has some weight to it, just like the hurt does. You can return to your seats and work in their special kids Sunday Paper: Trace the stone on the paper. Inside the tracing, write or draw what the hurt is. Hold onto your stone. We're going to do something with it in a few minutes, everybody together. You can also listen in to what I’m saying, if you want to hear more about forgiving! Catching Everybody Up//Recap Welcome anyone who is new or wasn't here Week 1. I want to do a brief recap: We're in a series called The Book of Forgiving, drawing from Archbishop Desmond Tutu and his daughter Mpho's important work on what forgiveness actually is, and how to do it. The Tutus aren't theorists. Desmond Tutu chaired South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Mpho lost her husband to violent crime. These are people who have earned the right to talk about this. Their framework is called the Fourfold Path: Telling the Story → Naming the Hurt → Granting Forgiveness → Renewing or Releasing the Relationship. In wk 1 we looked at the first step: Telling the Story. Today: Naming the Hurt. The big idea underneath all of it: We desperately need an imagination bigger than the revenge cycle we live inside culturally. That cycle is everywhere— in our politics, our entertainment, our instincts. The Tutus show us a different road. The Problem with How We Do Forgiveness Let's be honest about why forgiveness is so hard to practice, even for people who believe in it. We've collapsed forgiveness into remorse. Someone says "sorry!"— maybe genuinely, maybe not— and suddenly the pressure shifts entirely to the person who was hurt: Now you have to forgive. We skip the whole middle. That's not forgiveness. That's cruel urgency dressed up as something kind. We've made forgetting the goal. But the Tutus are clear: forgetting is not only impossible, it's actually counterproductive. Memory is part of how we protect ourselves. Part of how we stay honest. Forgiveness is not amnesia. We've weaponized it. In religious spaces especially, "forgive" has been used to protect people who caused harm and to silence people who were hurt. When forgiveness gets wielded as a command that bypasses accountability — when it becomes "Jesus says you have to forgive, so stop talking about what happened" — that is not sacred or faithful. That is abusive. And yet — Jesus does make forgiveness an ultimate, limitless command. Seventy times seven. God forgives without limit; our response is gratitude and extending that same grace. So how do we hold both? How do we take forgiveness seriously without letting it become a weapon? The answer is: we stop skipping the important steps. Forgiveness Cannot Be Rushed The Fourfold Path is a path…  it has an order for a reason. You cannot get to granting forgiveness without first telling the story and naming the hurt. Trying to skip there is what creates the toxic, pressured, performative version of forgiveness we've all experienced. And we’ll get into this later in the series, but granting forgiveness has nothing to do with the decision to either renegotiate or release that relationship.  Forgiveness needs to be as slow as it needs to be. It has a pace of its own. That pace deserves to be honored. (Callback to the stone practice from Week 1): Did anybody actually hold that stone in their non-dominant hand for six hours this week? What was that like? [[funny?]] That's the point. Six hours felt like a lot. Some of us have been carrying something for six years. Or sixty. It deserves time. The Second Step: Naming the Hurt  So what does it actually mean to name the hurt? It starts with telling your story… to yourself? To God? To people you trust. Not to everyone. Not on social media. Not to the first person who will listen. To the right people, in a safe space. The Tutus: Tell your story first to a friend, loved one, or trusted person. That’s a good place to start. There is a reason confession exists across almost every spiritual tradition. Not as a transaction, but as the practice of being heard without being fixed. What naming the hurt does: It begins to move what happened from something that is happening to you — constantly, on loop — into something that happened, that you can now begin to look at. Bessel van der Kolk: the body keeps what the mind won't name. When we give language to an experience, we move it from the body's alarm system into the part of the brain that can begin to process it. The Tutus frame it this way: Identify the feelings within the facts. The facts are WHAT HAPPENED. The feelings are what it COST you. What naming the hurt does NOT do: It does not mean what was done to you was okay. It does not mean you've forgiven anything yet. It does not mean you owe anyone resolution. But there is something that begins to shift. There is relief– which to be clear, is not the same as justice, and not the same as healing, but real relief— when the hurt stops being the main character in your story because you finally named it out loud. The Tutus again: No feeling is wrong, bad, or invalid. Move forward when you are ready. We Are Only Human With Other Humans This is why we do this together. Not because community is always safe — sometimes it isn't. But because we cannot become fully human alone. The Tutus: We do not heal in isolation. Connecting with others is how we develop compassion for others and for ourselves. What makes a good witness to someone naming their hurt? The Tutus give us a short, countercultural list: Listen. Do not try to fix the pain. Do not minimize the loss. Do not offer advice. Offer your love and your caring. That's it. Stay in the room. Don't flinch. Don't fix. That is one of the most profound gifts one human can offer another. Invitation: The Stone Practice Now we're all going to do something together— kids and adults. Invite everyone to pick up or find their stone. Walk them through the Tutus' "Clenching the Stone" practice (Book of Forgiving, Chapter 5): Take your stone in your dominant hand. Think of a hurt you are carrying right now. Name it… silently, or under your breath. As you name it, clench the stone in your fist. Now open your hand. As you release your fist, release the hurt — not forever, not resolved, just... set down for a moment. You can clench and release again for each thing you're carrying. Breathe… We're not asking you to be over it. We're not asking you to forgive it yet. We're just asking you to name it, and take the permission you can give yourself to walk the path of forgiving, at a pace that is right for you. That's enough for today. That's the work.

    29 min
  4. May 19

    The Book of Forgiving | The Story We Carry

    Before we can forgive anything, we have to be honest about what actually happened without minimizing, over-spiritualizing, or skipping to a resolution. This week we slow down to affirm this first step in the process: naming the hurt with precision. As it turns out, telling the truth about your wound is the first act of healing.   LINKS:  Current Conversations | Connect | YouTube |  Coming Up TRANSCRIPT: The Word We've Been Mishandling Forgiveness might be the most talked-about and least practiced idea in all of spiritual life. Not because some people are hypocrites (I mean aren’t we all a little bit?) but because if we’re honest, we've been given almost no real tools for it. Tension point: most of us are carrying something. And most of us have been told– by religion, culture, entertainment, even well-meaning people– to just... let it go. But letting go of something you haven't fully held yet isn't forgiveness. It's just suppression with fancy vocabulary. Brief series preview: over the next six weeks, we're going to do this differently. We're drawing from Archbishop Desmond Tutu and his daughter Mpho's book The Book of Forgiving– one of the most honest, rigorous, and compassionate treatments of this subject that I’m aware of. We'll talk about what forgiveness actually is, what it isn't, why it gets weaponized, and what it might mean to actually get free. The Tutus give us a four-step framework for genuine forgiveness. If you’re curious about each one of the steps in more detail and want to take the time it takes to really wrestle with that, I’d love to invite you into the Tuesday night book club and Discord server… talk to me after the gathering if you’re interested! There’s an underlying premise that when hurt happens, there’s a cycle of revenge we often get stuck in (marked by the hurt/harm/loss, experiencing pain, choosing to harm, rejecting shared humanity, getting revenge/retaliation/payback, that ultimately leads to some form of violence that creates new or additional harm. What they’ve provided for us– based on their own experiences of injustice and violence (apartheid, violent deaths, etc.) is what they call The Fourfold Path, that similarly starts with hurt/harm/loss, followed by an intentional choice to heal. And if healing is the choice, then the fourfold path can be traveled:  Telling the Story (today) Naming the Hurt Granting Forgiveness (Recognizing Shared Humanity) Renewing or Releasing the Relationship. You don't have to be at every week to get something meaningful from this. But if you can, come back. This is worth doing slowly. The task we’re in today– telling the story– is both simple and challenging: before we can forgive anything, we have to give ourselves space to be honest about what actually happened. Because there are a lot of real, identifiable reasons why we rush past pain and jump straight to resolution. Why We Skip the Hard Part Some of our work today, as we launch this series, is to be honest about why we skip the hard part, and end up missing out on actual forgiveness… For many: religious pressure |  "Jesus said forgive, so I should feel forgiving." The command becomes a performance. We say the words because we're supposed to, not because anything has actually shifted. (Note: forgiveness as a practice you choose vs. a feeling you perform — that distinction matters and we'll return to it.) Toxic positivity/"move on" culture |  American culture is deeply allergic to sitting with pain. We pathologize grief. We celebrate resilience in ways that quietly shame people for still hurting. "Good vibes only" is a spiritual bypass wearing a bumper sticker. Protecting ourselves from further abuse / Not wanting to further upset the person or system that hurt us |  This one deserves weight. Often the pressure to "just forgive" comes from the person or institution that caused harm. The church tells the abuse survivor to forgive the abuser. The family tells the wounded child not to make a scene. This is forgiveness weaponized — and we'll name that plainly throughout this series. The cultural myth of "forgive and forget" |  The Tutus address this directly. You cannot actually forget. And you shouldn't have to. Mpho Tutu writes that the idea of forgetting is not only impossible, it's actually counterproductive — memory is part of how we protect ourselves and stay honest. What happens when we skip to the “end”?? We don't actually move past the hurt. We move it underground. Resentment. Shame. Something that sits in us and ferments. The Tutus describe this as the "fourfold path" — and the first step is not resolution. It's telling the story. You cannot skip to the end. Telling the Story: The First Act of Healing The Tutus write: "The first and most important step in the Fourfold Path is to tell your story." Notice: they didn’t say to resolve it… but to tell it. Why does this matter psychologically? There's substantial research behind this. Narrative therapy and trauma-informed psychology both support the idea that giving language to an experience is not just cathartic — it's neurologically significant. When we name something, we move it from the body's alarm system into the part of the brain that can actually process it. (Reference: Bessel van der Kolk, "The Body Keeps the Score" — the body holds what the mind won't name.) But there's a crucial distinction the Tutus make — and it's worth sitting with: RUMINATING on a story and TELLING it are not the same thing. Rumination is the loop. It's replaying the scene, re-feeling the wound, rehearsing what you should have said. It keeps us stuck in a cycle that actually reinforces the pain rather than processing it. Ruminating is like the broken record “That’s an old tape, time to take it out of the VCR” Telling the story is different. It has a shape. A beginning, middle, and at least a provisional end. It has a witness. It moves outward rather than circling inward. Research on expressive writing (James Pennebaker, University of Texas) shows that people who write about difficult experiences in a structured way— not just venting, but actually narrating— show measurable improvements in psychological and even physical health. The Tutus frame this in deeply human terms: "When we tell our stories, we reclaim our humanity." The act of speaking what was done to us — rather than simply absorbing it — is how we refuse to let the wound become our whole identity. What Kind of Story Are We Telling? As we think perhaps about our own experiences of hurt, harm, or loss, it’s worth asking: what kind of story are we telling? There's a spectrum of harm that's worth naming honestly: Some of what we carry is hurt — disappointment, unmet expectations, misunderstanding, relational friction. Real, worth naming, but perhaps not requiring the full weight of the forgiveness process. Some of what we carry is a genuine wrong — a betrayal, an act of violence, a sustained pattern of harm, an abuse of power. This is different. And treating it the same as ordinary hurt can minimize something that deserves to be named for what it is. The Tutus do not minimize harm. Mpho Tutu lost her husband to violent crime. Desmond Tutu spent his life in proximity to atrocity. This framework was forged in the context of apartheid, genocide, and profound injustice. It is not a self-help framework for minor inconveniences. It takes the weight of real wrong seriously. Part of telling your story is being honest about what actually happened — not inflating it, not minimizing it. Precision in our storytelling is an ACT OF DIGNITY. The Role of a Witness Here's something important: the Tutus don't imagine this as a solo process. Telling the story almost always requires someone to tell it to. What makes a good witness? Not someone who fixes it. Not someone who jumps to advice, or silver linings, or "well, have you thought about their perspective?" A witness is someone who receives your story with enough steadiness that you feel safe to tell it fully. In men’s group: THREE people. The witness to receive the story, and also somebody with permission to ask questions about what they noticed in body language, follow up with questions about what’s happening in the story teller’s body, etc.  This is actually one of the most underrated spiritual gifts a person can offer another: the ministry of staying in the room without flinching. There's a reason confession has existed across almost every spiritual tradition in human history— not as a transaction for the pardon of wrongs, but as the practice of being heard by someone who doesn't run from the truth of what you've lived. Community implication: this is part of why we do this together. Not because church is a place to perform having it together, but because church can be— when we let it— a community of witnesses. People who are trained and willing to hold each other's real stories. (CARE IQ) What Forgiveness is NOT Before we wrap for today, let's clear some ground. The Tutus are direct about this: Forgiveness is not condoning what happened. Forgiveness is not forgetting. Forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. (You can forgive someone and never have a relationship with them again. These are separate acts.) Forgiveness is not necessarily something you do for the other person. And forgiveness is not something you have to feel before you can choose it. Forgiveness is a practice you choose. Not an internal feeling you perform outwardly. We'll build on all of this in the weeks ahead. But naming what it isn't is part of how we clear space for what it actually is. Invitation/PAW Guided prompts: I want to invite you into a few minutes of quiet with a series of prompts. Optional: write it, draw it, sit with it. Hold a stone to represent it…  Think of something you're carrying. You don't have to name it out

    35 min
  5. May 11

    Seeing Things | Show & Tell

    "Show and Tell: Waking Up to Participation" Show and Tell Most of us remember show and tell from elementary school. You brought something from home — something that mattered to you — and you stood up in front of the class and you showed it and you told about it. Why it was special. Where it came from. What it meant. It was a simple practice. But underneath it was something profound: the assumption that what you've experienced, what you've been given, what you've come to love — matters to other people. That your story is worth telling. That the room is changed when you share it. That's the practice we're talking about today. Except the stakes are a little higher than a favorite baseball card. The Viewmaster and the Commissioning For the last month we've been using Easter stories the way you use a ViewMaster — holding them up to the light, letting the depth and color and detail get in us, and then setting them down changed by what we saw. We're not here to relitigate what literally happened two thousand years ago. We're here to ask: what do these stories do to us when we really look at them? What wakes up in us? And here's what's interesting: every single one of the writers of the four gospels — Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John… the life and times of Jesus…  ends their account of these resurrection stories with some version of the same moment, which doesn’t always happen.. Jesus gathers the people he's been walking with, and he says: go. In different words, with different emphases, but the same essential movement. “You've seen something. Now go and live like it.” Four different writers, writing to four different communities, with four different angles on the same moment. And in every single account — the last thing he does is send them out. The word for someone who is sent — the Greek word apostolos, where we get the word "apostle" — literally just means: one who is sent. It’s a word basically used in Christian spaces, so it often sounds like a religious status, but that’s it… someone who has been given something, and is sent to share it. That's it. That's the commission. You've been given something. Go share it. The Whole Series in One Movement So let's trace what we've been given over these five weeks — because I think it forms a single, cumulative movement, and I don't want us to miss it. Week one: Mary at the tomb — waking up to being seen. You are known. You are named. You are not invisible. Even in your grief. Even when you can't see clearly. Someone calls you by name. Week two: Breakfast on the beach — waking up to being fed. There is enough. More than enough. The fire was already burning before you got to shore. And the story of scarcity that tells you there isn't? That story is manufactured, and we don't have to live by it. Week three: Thomas returning to the room — waking up to belonging. The wound is allowed in the room. You don't have to clean yourself up to come in. Saying the true thing is what keeps you connected, not what disqualifies you. Week four: The road to Emmaus — waking up to beauty. The image was already there. The presence was walking beside them the whole time. Soften your gaze. Pay attention. What you've been looking for might be right in front of you. And week five — this week: waking up to participation. You've been seen, fed, welcomed, and awakened to beauty. Now the stories ask: what are you going to do with that? Awakening is Not Private Here's where I want to say something plainly, because I think it matters: Awakening is not a PRIVATE ACHIEVEMENT. It is a COMMUNAL RESPONSIBILITY. There is a version of spiritual growth that becomes a kind of spiritual consumerism — where we collect insights, feel transformed in the room where transformation is happening, and then go back to our regular lives essentially unchanged. Where the ViewMaster stays pressed to our eyes and we never put it down and bring what we saw into the world. The commissioning — in all four versions of its telling — pushes back hard against that. Womanist (womanism: a social and intellectual framework and movement that centers the experiences, struggles, and contributions of Black women.) theologian Emilie Townes writes that authentic spiritual formation cannot be separated from public action. That the personal and communal are not separate tracks. They are the same track. Inner spirituality without an outward “show and tell”  is incomplete. And embodying an inner spirituality without community is unsustainable. You cannot wake up alone and stay awake alone. We wake each other up. We keep each other awake. That's the whole design. What Community is Actually For I think this perspective is pointing toward something that connects directly to what every version of the commissioning is saying. You bring what you have. You share it. And in the sharing, something happens that couldn't happen if you stayed home alone with it. bell hooks takes this further in her writing on beloved community (a community in which everyone is cared for, absent of poverty, hunger, and hate). She writes: "Beloved community is formed not by the eradication of difference but by its affirmation, by each of us claiming the identities and cultural legacies that shape who we are and how we live in the world." Beloved community is not uniformity. It's not everyone arriving at the same conclusions. It's not the erasure of what makes us different from each other. It's the opposite: each person showing up fully as who they are, with what they've been given, with the stories and wounds and gifts and cultural legacies they carry — and the community being made richer and more whole because of it. That is show and tell. That is the commissioning. [[That is, in part, why Fabric exists.]] Think of moments like this in your own life when somebody has a breakthrough moment in their life and brings you into it. Or, when you share honestly within your circles of influence about what's been shifting in you… that's the kind of show and tell we’re talking about. You're saying: Here’s something I’m waking up to, and it matters to me, and I think it might matter to you too. Closing: A Commissioning for Fabric We're living in a strange and charged moment. And part of what makes it strange is that the Jesus being used to justify the hoarding of power, the cruelty toward the vulnerable, even the villanization of empathy — that Jesus is not recognizable in any of the biblical stories about him. The Jesus in the stories we’ve been holding up to the light throughout this series makes breakfast for exhausted people. Says someone's name when they can't see straight. Invites the one with the courage to share their doubts back into the room. Walks seven miles with grieving travelers and stays for dinner. And then — in every account — sends people out. Not to conquer, or exclude, or to try to pass a vaguely religious litmus test for the powerful… but to share what they'd been given, and to make the beloved community larger and more expansive. So here is a commissioning for us — for Fabric — as we leave here today: You have been seen. Go and see others. You have been fed. Go and keep the fire burning. You have been welcomed with your wounds and your doubts. Go and make room. You have been awakened to beauty and goodness. Go and point to it — stubbornly, defiantly, in the middle of everything that tries to make us forget it's there. With all the curiosity, softness, and courage you can muster, show and tell about a different kind of world that is possible. May it be so. Amen.

    25 min
  6. May 5

    Seeing Things | The Road is Already There

    Two travelers walk miles with a stranger, their eyes somehow unable to recognize who he is… until suddenly, they do. Like a Magic Eye image, beauty and meaning are often already present; sometimes we just need to soften our gaze to recognize it.   LINKS:  Current Conversations | Connect | YouTube |  Coming Up TRANSCRIPT: "The Road Is Already There: Waking Up to Beauty" Opening:: The Magic Eye Show Magic Eye… bring a couple ppl up to “race”... ask what their “trick” is… Do you all know what this is? Maybe if you’re like me, you also know the particular frustration of standing in front of one of these and seeing absolutely nothing. Just noise. Just chaos. Everyone else around you is gasping and pointing — I see it, I see it — and you're standing there thinking: there is nothing there. This is a scam! And then — maybe — something shifts. You relax your eyes. You soften your gaze. You stop trying so hard to find it. And suddenly, almost against your will: there it is. A dolphin. A spaceship. A whole three-dimensional world that was present the entire time, completely invisible until you stopped straining to see it. The image was always there. You just needed a DIFFERENT WAY OF LOOKING. That's the story we're sitting with today. The Story: Road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13–35) It's the same day as the resurrection. Two of the people who had been learning from Jesus are walking from Jerusalem to Emmaus — about seven miles away (from here to downtown Hopkins, or here to the State Fair). One is named Cleopas, and he’s traveling with another person the author of this book leaves out… They are walking away. Away from the city where everything fell apart. Away from the site of the execution. Away from the tomb and the wild, confusing reports the women brought back that morning that nobody quite knew what to do with. They're processing. Talking through the wreckage. And a stranger falls into step beside them along the road. The stranger asks what they're talking about. And they stop — looking downcast — and say: are you the only person in Jerusalem who doesn't know what happened? There's something almost darkly funny about that. They proceed to explain the whole story to Jesus. He listens. Then he walks them through the scriptures, reframing everything. They reach Emmaus as evening falls. The stranger acts as if he's continuing on — and they say: stay with us. It's getting late. He stays. They sit down to eat. He takes the bread, blesses it, breaks it, gives it to them. And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished. They turn to each other: weren't our hearts burning within us while he talked to us on the road? They had been walking with him the whole time and couldn't see it. Until the bread broke, and their eyes softened, and there it was. What They Were Walking Away From I want to sit with this story and look at it through the lens of liberation for a moment, because it matters who these people are and what they were carrying. Cleopas says to the stranger: we had hoped he was the one who would redeem Israel. The Greek word there — lytrōo — means to liberate from an oppressive situation. To set free. These weren't abstract spiritual hopes. They were political hopes. They had hoped this was the one who would break the power of Rome, dismantle the systems of domination, set the occupied people free. And instead he was executed, in an extremely public, humiliating way Rome had devised specifically to crush movements and make examples of leaders. So they're walking away not just from grief, but from the particular grief of crushed political hope. The grief of people who believed change was possible and watched it get squashed. That is not a distant or unfamiliar grief. Many of us carry some version of it. And the story doesn't say: get over it. Go back. Pretend it didn't happen. The story says: a stranger joins you in it. Listens to you talk through it. And eventually — in the act of sharing a meal with an unexpected guest — something you couldn't see before comes into focus. Paying Attention as a Practice Robin Wall Kimmerer (botanist, writer, member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation) has spent her life arguing that attention is not PASSIVE. It is an act. A PRACTICE. A form of reciprocity. In her framework, drawn from Indigenous ways of knowing, the world is already speaking. Already offering gifts. The question is not whether beauty and meaning are present — they are. The question is whether we have learned, or been willing, to receive them. She writes that paying attention is a form of reciprocity with the living world — receiving its gifts with open eyes and open heart. This is exactly what the Emmaus story is about. The beauty — the presence — was already there on the road. It had been there for seven miles. In this story, the disciples' eyes were, as Luke puts it, kept from recognizing him. Not because the presence was absent. Because something in their grief, their exhaustion, their framework kept them from seeing what was right in front of them. The Magic Eye image was already there. Their gaze just hadn't softened yet. And here's the liberationist move in Kimmerer's thinking that connects directly to this story: the practices that train us to notice beauty, to receive gifts, to recognize interconnection — those practices are not luxuries for people who have the time and leisure to be contemplative. They are, she argues, acts of resistance against systems that profit from our disconnection. A culture that keeps us distracted, anxious, consuming, competing — that culture depends on us not noticing the gifts that are already here. Not recognizing each other. Not seeing the fire that was already burning on the shore. Defiant attention is a revolutionary act. The Meal As the Moment Notice where recognition happens in this story. Not during the stimulating conversation while they were on the road — though something was stirring (weren't our hearts burning?). Not through an argument or a proof. Not through a performance of power. Recognition happens at a table. When food is distributed and shared. When a stranger is invited to stay and then becomes the host. This is how the writer of Luke tells the entire story of Jesus. Over and over, the pivotal moments happen around food. The outcast is seen at a dinner party. The lost son is welcomed home with a feast. The thousands are fed with what seemed like not enough. And now: Jesus, once again in their presence, is recognized in the breaking of bread. From a womanist perspective, [[every table can be a SACRED SPACE.]] It is where bodies gather. Where hunger is acknowledged. Where the work of sustaining life happens. Where people who might otherwise stay strangers become known to each other. And in this story, it's a table in an ordinary house in an ordinary village, with two grieving, exhausted travelers who thought to offer hospitality to someone they didn't yet recognize. The beauty was in the ordinary. The coming back to life was in a meal. The recognition was in the distribution of food. What This Asks of Us… So what does it mean to live with a softened gaze — especially right now, in a world that gives us a thousand reasons every day to harden? Here’s what I think: it doesn't mean ignoring the hard things. These disciples didn't ignore them. They talked about them for seven miles. They named the execution. They named the dashed hope. They named the confusion & chaos. Soft gaze is not the same as averted gaze. You can see the wound clearly and refuse to let the wound be the only thing you see. What Kimmerer points to, and what this story enacts, is something like this: the world is more beautiful and more interconnected than the loudest voices in our culture want us to believe. The story of scarcity, isolation, and meaninglessness is not the whole story — and insisting on that, quietly and stubbornly, in the way we pay attention and share meals and recognize each other, is a form of resistance. What would it mean to be defiant in our insistence that beauty is real? That connection is real? That everything actually is interconnected? That a stranger on the road might be carrying something we need? The disciples had to invite the stranger to stay before their eyes opened. Hospitality preceded recognition. They didn't know who he was when they said come in, stay with us, it's getting late. They just knew the evening was coming and there was room. Closing Practice One practice this week… Soften your gaze once — deliberately — at something you usually rush past on the way to something else. A person. A tree. A meal. A moment with someone you love. A moment with a stranger. The view out a window you stopped noticing. Don't try to extract meaning from it. Don't analyze it. Just let it be there. Let yourself receive it… And notice: was something already present that you hadn't been still enough to see? The road is already there. The stranger is already walking beside you. The bread is about to break. You already have eyes to see it…! May it be so.

    30 min
  7. Apr 27

    Seeing Things | Touch the Wound

    Thomas gets a bad reputation for doubting, but maybe he was just honest — and maybe that honesty is exactly what brought him back into the room. This week we explore how naming what's broken, rather than hiding it, is often the very thing that opens us to belonging.   LINKS:  Current Conversations | Connect | YouTube |  Coming Up TRANSCRIPT: "Touching the Wound: Waking Up to Belonging" Open: Poor Thomas Starting with a little rehab here… Thomas has been getting a bad reputation for about two thousand years. Doubting Thomas. We've turned his name into an insult— something you call someone who won't take your word for it. Someone who needs proof. Someone who's being difficult. But here's what I want to suggest today: Thomas wasn't being difficult. Thomas was being honest. And that honesty — that refusal to pretend he was okay when he wasn't, to perform belief he didn't have — might be exactly what brought him back into the room. The Story: Thomas (John 20:19–29) (Set the scene) It's the evening of the day of resurrection. The disciples are huddled behind locked doors — afraid, bewildered, not sure what to do next. Jesus appears, shows them his hands and his side, breathes peace on them, and sends them out. It's an extraordinary moment. And Thomas isn't there. We don't know why. The text doesn't say. Maybe he needed air, or to put his feet on grass. Maybe grief just does that — sends us off alone sometimes. The others find him and say: we have seen Jesus. And Thomas says — and here the Greek is vivid and visceral, not politely skeptical: unless I put my finger into the wounds in his hands, unless I thrust my hand into his side — I don’t buy it. Not a mild maybe. A raw demand, dripping with grief. Show me the wound. Don't tell me it's okay. Show me. My most recent– and now maybe permanent– memory of this person is intimately tied to his death… A week later, Jesus appears again. And the first thing he does is turn to Thomas and say: here. Put your finger here. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. He doesn't scold Thomas. He doesn't say why couldn't you just trust the others? He shows him exactly what Thomas asked to see. And Thomas says: my Lord and my God. The most complete confession of faith in the entire Gospel of John — spoken by the one who has  been labeled “the doubter,” as if that’s a bad thing. What Thomas Actually Did I want to slow down and look at what Thomas really did here, because I think we've been reading it wrong. Thomas did not hide his doubt. He did not perform belief he didn't have. He did not sit in the back of the room and smile and nod and go through the motions. He said the true thing. The hard thing. The thing that probably felt embarrassing and exposed and maybe even a little dangerous to say in a room full of people who claimed they'd already seen. I need to touch the wound to believe it. That is not a failure of faith. That is an act of extraordinary courage — the courage of honesty. And because he said the true thing, because he named what was real for him, he got to be there when Jesus showed up again. He was in the room. What if the doubt wasn't the obstacle to belonging? What if naming the doubt was the very thing that kept him connected? Mr. Rogers and the Mentionable Fred Rogers understood something about this — and he spent his whole career trying to teach it to children, and really, to the rest of us. His full version of the famous line is this: "Anything that's human is mentionable, and anything that is mentionable can be more manageable. When we can talk about our feelings, they become less overwhelming, less upsetting, and less scary. The people we trust with that important talk can help us know that we are not alone." Not just: if you can say it, you can handle it. But: anything human can be said. And saying it is how we stop being alone in it. Rogers was actually an ordained pastor who believed deeply that the most spiritual thing you could do was tell the truth about how you were actually doing. That naming the wound — whatever it was — was the beginning of healing, not the end of dignity.  And he didn't just preach this. He demonstrated it. In 1969, Rogers testified before the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Communications. Nixon wanted to cut public broadcasting funding in half. Senator John Pastore of Rhode Island was chairing the committee — impatient, skeptical, running behind schedule. He told Rogers he had six minutes and that he'd already read his statement, so Rogers could skip it. And Rogers — gentle, calm, completely unintimidated — said he'd like to share some of it anyway. And for six minutes, he talked about what his show tried to do: help children name their feelings. Anger. Sadness. Fear. The hard stuff. He even recited, quietly, the words to a song from the show about what to do with the mad that you feel. (video clip here) An abrupt, impatient senator… not entirely closed, but not exactly open either… moved not by argument, not by data, but by someone willing to speak honestly and vulnerably about what actually matters to human beings.  What Rogers did in that hearing room is what Thomas did in that locked room. He named the real thing. And the room changed. The Wound Doesn’t Disappear Here's where I want to push into something important, because there's a version of this story that is too easy. The easy version says: Thomas doubted, Jesus showed up, Thomas believed, everything was fine. Transformation as erasure. The wound healed. Clean ending. But look at the text again. Jesus shows Thomas the wounds — and the wounds are still there. His body still carries them. Resurrection doesn't erase the harm. It transforms it into something that can be touched, named, even — in the tradition — venerated. Theologian Shelly Rambo, writing in the feminist and womanist tradition, argues that the wounds of Jesus speak directly to present-day wounds that persist — the wounds of racism, of trauma, of systemic harm — and that theological claim about resurrection must resist what she calls the covering over and erasing of wounds. Pretending the harm didn't happen is not renewal. Resurrection… revival… new life… is the insistence that the wound doesn't have the last word in our lives — while still honoring that the wound is real. It hurts. This matters enormously for us. For people in this room who carry wounds — personal, communal, historical — that some well-meaning religious community has told you to get over, move on from, stop bringing up: that is not what this story is about. Jesus doesn't say to Thomas: you should have believed without seeing. He says: here. Touch it. The wound is the door, not the obstacle. What This Looks Like Here So what does this mean for a community like Fabric? A lot of us came here — or are here exploring — because some other room didn't have space for real questions. Real skepticism or doubts. Real wounds from what religion has done, or what life has done, or what systems have done to us and the people we love.  And what this story says is: that honesty isn't what keeps you out of the room. It's what makes it possible to be in the room in any real way. When you say I don't know if I believe any of this — you're doing what Thomas did. When you say I'm not okay and I'm not going to pretend I am — you're doing what Thomas did. When you say I need to see the wound before I can trust the story — you are in good company. Ancient company. And the invitation this community wants to extend is not: clean yourself up and then come in. It's: come in as you are. Bring the doubt. Bring the wound. There's room. Closing Practice Fred Rogers said that the people we trust with the important talk help us know we are not alone. Thomas needed to touch the wound before he could actually become present to the seemingly impossible thing that was happening in their shared life. Both of them are pointing to the same thing: naming what is real is how we find our way back into connection. So this week, one practice. Just one… Name something true — to yourself, or to one person you trust — that you've been carrying quietly. It doesn't have to be dramatic. It doesn't have to be resolved. It just has to be honest. This is hard for me. I don't know what I believe about this. I'm more tired than I'm letting on. I miss someone. I'm angry, and I haven't said it. Name it. Say the mentionable, human thing. And notice what shifts — even a little — when the wound gets to be in the room. You don't have to have this figured out to belong here. Bring the doubt. Bring the wound. There's room. May it be so.

    34 min
4.5
out of 5
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About

Welcome to the Fabric podcast! Fabric is a thoughtful, progressive experiment in being church, based in South Minneapolis. We love hosting space where curiosity, connection, and inclusive belonging have space to stretch out and get comfy. Take the time you need to explore what we’re about, and when you’re ready, connect however feels best. The conversation is always fresh! Fabric is church, for the rest of us. #FabricMpls

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