In the mood for wine: The Business of Wine

Sara Danese
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Conversations with the people shaping the world of wine—from renowned winemakers, critics and merchants to finance professors, economists and industry pioneers. In each episode The Business of Wine explores the ideas, trends and decisions driving the global wine industry.

Episodes

  1. 5d ago

    EP. 12: Can You Really Start a Winery With Just $10,000?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * Can you start a winery with just $10,000? That’s just ludicrous! But Mallorca’s 4Kilos offers an intriguing starting point. Founded in 2006 by Francesc Grimalt and Sergio Caballero with an initial investment of just €24,000 — four million pesetas, or 4 kilos, as the amount was colloquially expressed in Spain — the winery takes its name from a modest sum that helped launch something distinctive. Is that proof that vision and ingenuity can matter more than money?  Or is it just a romantic notion? I put the question to Charles Outhwaite, who co-founded Ambriel, an English sparkling wine producer in Sussex, with his wife Wendy. We met in Bordeaux at the European Economics Association, where we were both invited to contribute to a panel discussion on the wine business. Charles’s perspective was particularly interesting: before becoming a winemaker, he spent three decades as an investment banker at Evercore. He kindly agreed to humour me in this episode of The Business of Wine by exploring whether it’s possible to start a winery with $10,000. My original challenge, admittedly, was even more absurd: could he do it with just $1,000? We work through the economics line by line, examining the costs, trade-offs and creative choices involved in building a wine business from the ground up — and whether you can make it work without deep pockets.  Because making great wine is one thing but building a business around it is quite another. Happy listening!

  2. Oct 1

    EP. 11: Who Is Bordeaux Pricing For?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * To understand Bordeaux, one needs to understand La Place.  And who better to tell its story than Jean-Christophe Mau? Few people can explain how Bordeaux really works from so many angles: château owner, négociant family, operator, insider. Today he is focused on Château Brown in Pessac-Léognan. Before that, he ran Château Preuillac for his family and was part of the Yvon Mau négociant business. I am genuinely grateful Jean-Christophe Mau agreed to do this. Bordeaux does not like explaining itself, especially to outsiders. I have approached plenty of people over time. The usual answer is: “We don’t speak to journalists.”  But I am not a journalist!—I protest. Others will talk, but only off the record. Which is precisely why Bordeaux so often remains misunderstood. More than two decades ago, a young Jean-Christophe told Margaret Rand, in Inheritance: Heirs Apparent, that “too many people in Bordeaux don’t understand what the consumer wants. In the past, there wasn’t the same competition – wine drinkers had no choice but to buy Bordeaux.” That concern still hangs over Bordeaux. It certainly hung over this conversation. We spoke about release prices, speculation, oversupply, critics, the gap between châteaux and final consumers, and the strain now showing across the en primeur system. In particular, we covered: Why Bordeaux’s problem may be bigger than simply “prices are too high” [00:53], and why release prices have drifted away from the secondary market [01:56] How Bordeaux actually sets en primeur release prices [03:02] Whether Bordeaux has lost touch with the final consumer [06:18] Why volume matters, and why Bordeaux cannot behave like Burgundy [08:43] Whether châteaux have tried to take too much of the margin [13:08] The strengths and weaknesses of La Place today [19:23] The pricing practices that distort the market [28:54] What Jean-Christophe Mau expects from the 2025 campaign [38:19]

  3. Sep 24

    EP. 10: Why are Wineries and Merchants Tapping Wine-Backed Credit for Financing?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * Bloomberg reported that alcohol businesses are being pushed into high-yield private credit as consumption and margins fall. Personally, I’ve heard this sentiment echoed by merchants.  One told me: “There is no consumer crisis. There is a debt crisis.” Another said: “High-street banks have basically become too difficult and expensive to deal with. They have zero appetite for risk and no interest in developing meaningful relationships with start-ups and SMEs. This means start-ups rely on friends and family, crowdfunding and seed investors, and larger and later-stage businesses also look to the diverse world of private credit.” In other words, a new ecosystem is emerging — one that could end up being better tailored to each business’s needs. Lily Feng is the CEO of Jera Wine, the financing arm of Coterie Holding. Jera specialises in lending against blue-chip wine collections, giving restaurants, merchants and private collectors a way to unlock capital without immediately selling stock. Jera is far from the only company offering this — and in this video, Lily explains the dynamics of wine-backed lending: how they value wine as collateral, what they will and won’t lend against, how they think about risk in a softer market, and where wine-backed finance might sit in the industry over the next few years.

  4. Sep 17

    EP. 9: A Small NY Wine Importer Took On the President of the United States on Tariffs. Guess Who Won.

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * On Friday 20 February, the Supreme Court ruled that President Trump’s use of IEEPA (the International Emergency Economic Powers Act) to impose tariffs was unconstitutional — and wine is right at the centre of this story. A small New York wine importer, VOS Selections, brought the case that helped put new limits on presidential power on tariffs. Despite what Trump administration officials may claim, the ruling is likely to deter any serious attempt to revive “emergency” tariffs in the same way. Tariffs sit with Congress. Congress can lend that authority to the President in specific circumstances — but only through clear statutes and with limits.  Victor Owen Schwartz, founder of VOS Selections, joins me to explain why he felt compelled to act — and why he sees wine as the “canary in the coal mine”, a bellwether for international trade. It was inspiring to hear how he found himself in the eye of the storm.  I think you’ll find a bit of hope — and a lot of resilience — in his story too.

  5. Sep 10

    EP. 8: How can you pay for wine and it still not be yours?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * I asked ChatGPT “How can you pay for something and it still not be yours?”  It replied: “If you pay to buy it and it’s still not yours, it’s a gift.” Not quite.  What I was referring to was a scandal in the wine world that unfolded a week before Christmas, the Oeno Group scandal, that is agitating the wine world and has struck at the roots of one of the most crucial, least regarded issues: ownership.  On 19 December 2025, London-based wine investment firm Oeno Group published a notice at the request of the City of London Corporation’s Trading Standards Service warning that “Oeno has recently ceased trading.” While there is suspicion of foul play, what has left many customers most perplexed is this: despite receiving invoices and certificates of authenticity and ownership, the City of London Trading Standards Service wrote on Oeno’s website that “only 20% of client wine is held in individual customer accounts that the customer will be able to access.” So, how can you pay for wine and it still not be yours? To answer that, I sat down with Vincent O’Brien, Managing Director of Octavian Wine Services, one of the world’s leading fine-wine storage providers.  We discussed what “ownership” actually means in practice; how to verify your wine is held in your name; why unique case identifiers and customer portals matter; what documentation you need if a merchant or investment firm collapses; and how weak record-keeping can blur provenance and destroy value. But I am still left with one question: why does the market have so much faith that the wine is actually there? Is it blind trust, naivety, or ignorance of how custody works? A belief that an invoice equals ownership? Or simply that checking feels like too much effort until something goes wrong? Before visiting Octavian last November, I was the same.

  6. Sep 3

    EP. 7: Can Blockchain Fix Wine?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * David Garrett is one of those rare tech entrepreneurs who can lay out both the “Problem” and the “Vision” with real clarity for a non-technical audience (such as myself). That’s what makes his view of the future of wine so compelling. At dVIN Labs, they are building a “Digital Cork”— a blockchain-based title and tracking system for fine wine that follows each bottle from winery to end drinker. Each bottle is given a provenance tier (blue for ex-château, green for vetted trade partners, white for private cellars) and linked to a unique identifier such as an NFC chip or QR code. Custody changes and any storage or condition data are added when users in the chain actively update the record, and when a bottle is opened, the owner manually marks it as such in the app, which cancels the Digital Cork. Since recording this episode, I’ve been mulling over whether blockchain is really the right “Solution” to the problem David describes. In other words: is a digital deed of ownership what’s been missing from the world of wine?  Hear the case David makes and let me know what you think in the comments or via the survey. I’ve shared my own view in the comments as well.

  7. Aug 27

    EP. 6: Why Auction Houses Are Growing When Merchants Aren’t...

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * Water is just water — until you are stuck in an airport and it becomes a scarce resource.  Wine is arguably just fermented grape juice — until you put lots of wealthy collectors in the same room and give them a game to play. The game is who-gets-to-take-home-the-bottle-of-wine-for-the-highest-price? And the name of that game is auction. In this episode, I wanted to challenge how we think about wine by looking at it through the very specific lens of the auction house. I speak with Nick Pegna, Global Head of Wine & Spirits at Sotheby’s, who brings a more nuanced view to that caricature. He talks about what happens when wine sits alongside watches, jewellery and art — and how that changes the way we value it.  What fascinated me in this conversation is that auction houses such as Sotheby’s, says Nick, are seeing positive growth at a challenging time for the world of wine. Why is that? Nick argues that the auction world is still driven first and foremost by people who want to drink the bottles they buy. Rarity, provenance and maturity all matter enormously, but the endgame is still pleasure. At the same time, those same factors – rarity, provenance, maturity – are exactly what make wine behave like an asset: they drive pricing, trust and liquidity in the secondary market. One key difference between wine merchants and auction houses is the source of their offerings. Auction houses like Sotheby’s rely on private collections rather than producers, which positions them uniquely in the market — not tied to new releases or even to the conventional secondary market, but to what surfaces at auction. If nothing else, this shows that there are pockets of the market that still excite wine lovers — even if what, exactly, that is can be hard to pin down.  Over the course of the discussion, we move from “wine as something you trade” to “wine as something you drink” and back again. We talk about how auction estimates are set, how provenance and storage history now command a very real premium, why some regions fall in and out of fashion, and why trust and transparency are at the core of any credible view of wine as an asset class. The result, I hope, is a nuanced perspective: wine as an asset only really works if we remember that it is a drink first.

  8. Aug 20

    EP. 5: Can wine be a serious asset class?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. Subscribe to In the mood for wine for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * I sit down with Aaran Ameli-Daniel, Head of Data & Analytics at WineFi, a London-based start-up backed by the likes of Coterie Holdings, SFC Capital and Founders Capital. They’ve also closed a crowdfunding round of over £1m from 360 investors — many of them very young.  Their core business is selling fine-wine-as-investment to people (Gen Z mostly) who want “exposure to the asset class of wine”.  This is the first of three episodes that explore the concept of wine as an asset class, something I strongly believe in (you can read: Wine Is An Asset, Whether You Like It Or Not)—but this may be the most controversial episode, because it treats wine least as a beverage and most as a financial instrument. But what if this is what it takes to turn the head of Gen Z when it comes to wine? That — and radical transparency. That’s what WineFi is betting on with its “build in public” motto and its data-backed tools for investing in wine — still a rarity in this industry. In this interview, Aaran and I discuss all things data: from what counts as an investment-grade wine, to fair-value models, backtesting and market inefficiencies — and what all of this means for the legitimacy of wine as an asset class.

  9. Aug 13

    EP. 4: What’s in a trade war?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. Subscribe to In the mood for wine for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * What’s in a trade war? Well, for starters, uncertainty.  That uncertainty can be about the what, when, or how much of US tariffs — in other words, about their details.  But that came and went quickly. In just six months, we’ve shifted from a world built on free trade to one where protectionism is rampant. Whether tariffs may or may not be the right answer to reshoring lost jobs, or simply the latest political tool in President Trump’s agenda, this economic experiment will shape the future in profound ways. As Mario Draghi, former President of the ECB, put it: “When you start acting unilaterally in trade negotiations, with tariffs and subsudies, it’s very difficult to hamper someone that wants to do the same in two, three years’ time… Everything becomes more arbitrary…” Beyond geopolitics, trade wars have concrete economic consequences: lower margins across supply chains (including for US businesses), higher consumer prices, and weaker demand. Of course, that’s the point—to reduce demand for foreign goods and boost local production. But when it comes to wine, will American producers really benefit? A protected border often means less access to affordable labour—the largest cost input for many Californian and other US wineries. Meanwhile, the dollar has weakened by around 8% year-to-date, according to the DXY. Against the pound and the euro, that translates into roughly an additional 10% increase in the price of a French wine sold via London. Tariffs are complex, but one effect is clear: uncertainty cools demand for dollar assets and, by extension, weakens the currency’s purchasing power. And there’s one thing President Trump might not know—or care about—but it’s arguably the worst possible time to introduce tariffs. The wine industry is already struggling. So the question is: can you really raise wine prices when demand is already weak? To help us answer that, I spoke with David Smydo, CEO of Sokolin, one of the oldest wine merchants in the United States, who offered a characteristically optimistic take on what lies ahead.

  10. Aug 6

    EP. 3: The Psychology of Investing in a (Fine Wine) Bear Market

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. Subscribe to In the mood for wine for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * Much is said about the psychology of investing in bull markets, and during bubbles. Much less is written about the behavioural traps that stop us from acting in a downturn, like the one fine wine has been experiencing for the third year running.  So, how should we behave when everything’s on sale? To explore this, I spoke with Greg Davies, an applied behavioural scientist who set up the first behavioural finance team in banking at Barclays. He now leads behavioural finance at Oxford Risk, where he helps investors make better decisions. Greg has also been a Visiting Professor of Behavioural Finance at both the University of Oxford and Imperial College — which is where we met, when I chose his course as one of my electives. He’s since distilled that material into an online course, The Art of Behavioural Investing, for 42courses. Alongside Master of Wine John Downes, Greg also co-hosts Pour Better Decisions — live events that blend wine tasting with behavioural science to explore how we make choices under uncertainty. We talk about what really happens when markets fall, why wine is such an emotionally charged asset, and how investors can start to separate emotional satisfaction from financial return. We also look at the idea of optionality in wine, the mismatch between emotional and financial time horizons, and how that can lead to poor decision-making. This is just a conversation about bubbles and booms and it’s a clear-eyed look at what it means to treat wine as an asset, and what sets it apart from other passion investments.

  11. Jul 30

    EP. 2: What Most People Get Wrong About Fine Wine Investing

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. Subscribe to In the mood for wine for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * Fine wine is often sold as a stable, inflation-proof, low-volatility asset. But the data—and the research—tell a different story. In this episode, I speak with Dr Gertjan Verdickt, finance professor at the University of Auckland and co-author of The Passion Portfolio, about what really drives returns in the wine market.  We cover: Why fine wine behaves more like a corporate bond than a luxury goodHow most investors misread volatility, risk, and pricingWhat’s behind the current downturn in wine markets—and why it may be an opportunityAnd how cognitive bias, liquidity constraints, and misplaced trust shape investor decisionsThis conversation is for anyone who wants to understand the fine wine market more clearly—whether you're investing, collecting, or simply trying to cut through the noise of this downturn. I’ve written about some of these topics before (Sterling, Dollar, Euro: How Currencies Shape Fine Wine Prices & Trade, Is Fine Wine Really An Inflation Hedge? & Welcome to a Safe Haven), but it was refreshing to go deeper in this new format.

  12. Jul 22

    EP. 1: Is Wine Going Out Of Fashion?

    The Business of Wine is a podcast brought to you by In the mood for wine, an independent publication for the next generation of wine lovers, collectors and investors. ⁠Subscribe to In the mood for wine ⁠for weekly insights into the business, economics and culture of fine wine. * Last week, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Simon Farr, undoubtedly one of the most influential and successful figures in the wine industry today. Simon’s impressive career spans over five decades—he co-founded Bibendum in 1982, founded and chairs Cru World Wine, is actively involved in innovative ventures such as Wine Owners and Nebbia & Luce, and even owns a vineyard in South Africa. From wine distribution and trading to collection management, Simon has shaped nearly every corner of the fine wine market. Simon brings a depth of understanding that cuts through complexity. His long view, sharpened by experience and strategic thinking, makes him uniquely skilled at filtering signal from noise. So, who better to explore the long-term future of the wine industry — especially following some of the questions I raised in “Is Wine Going Out of Fashion?” In our chat, we covered the forces reshaping the future of wine, including: the resilience of fine wine through economic cycles the rising threat of neo-prohibitionism shifting consumer preferences and the future of authenticity the role of digital platforms in trading and price discovery the economics of En Primeur and who’s left to carry the cost and how global demand is moving beyond traditional markets

  • 12 Episodes

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Conversations with the people shaping the world of wine—from renowned winemakers, critics and merchants to finance professors, economists and industry pioneers. In each episode The Business of Wine explores the ideas, trends and decisions driving the global wine industry.

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