NOTE TO READERS: In our maiden episode of Changing America, a podcast all about how America can survive and thrive after Trump’s exit - if not exile - historian Jonathan Alter looks ahead to discuss Iran, ICE, a Wealth Tax, constitutional amendments on campaign finance and pardons...plus comparisons between Trump and Caesar since Jonathan is finishing a biography of the Roman dictator in 2027. Let’s look up to the horizon of hope and not merely wrestle in the mud with MAGA. Episode Transcript: Mark Green: I’m Mark Green, pleased to announce today a new recurring element of our Inflection Zone Substack It’s a podcast called Changing America, named after two large citizen transition books written by progressive experts, agency by agency, that I organized for the presidents-elect, first in 1992 and then again in 2008. Of course, Clinton and then Obama. Now, in 2026, I’ll be interviewing leading public advocates about how to further expose Trump and MAGAism with a special focus on how the next administration can end his corrupt despotism and establish an even better democracy. I’m happy to inaugurate this positive podcast with my longtime friend, and among the leading journalists and biographers in the country, Jonathan Alter. His books on FDR and Carter, and others, plus deeply informed columns and many cable appearances, have helped educate Americans for decades. He’s now completing a biography of Julius Caesar. Welcome, Jonathan. Jonathan Alter: Thanks, Mark. Glad to be here. Thanks for the kind words. Mark Green: Speaking of Caesar, I’ve been fascinated with him because of a shared date. He, of course, was famously assassinated, March 15th, 44 BC. I, less famously, was born on March 15th, 1945, separated by a mere 2090 years. So beyond that small coincidence, why Caesar? Jonathan Alter: Caesar was involved, not solely responsible, but involved in the demise of the Roman Republic. He didn’t live during the Roman Empire. He came at the end of more than 450 years of a republic in Rome. So I think you can understand why the collapse of the Roman Republic is of real interest right now, and it’s a complicated, rich, and I found fascinating story, and Julius Caesar was an utterly fascinating and brilliant individual. Mark Green: So your comment invites this question – I glibly referred to Trump as an American Caesar in 2017 when he first came on the scene presidentially. Was I just being quick, or is that a useful comparison in your view? Jonathan Alter: I think it’s useful to the extent that the word Caesar, after his death, 11 emperors had Caesar as part of their name, and then Kaiser is Caesar in German, and Tsar is Caesar in Russian. And so he came to represent autocracy in the world of the last 2,000 years. So to that extent, I think it’s a valid comparison. But the two individuals had a few things in common, but not a lot, and basically Trump is not worthy of holding Julius Caesar’s toga. I like to say, some of you might remember the beverage that was made of orange juice and milk and can still be consumed in a different form at Dairy Queen called an Orange Julius. And I would just say that Donald Trump is no Orange Julius. Mark Green: (laughs) You lucked out on that one! A couple of Substacks ago, I wrote that Trump’s legacy is largely set in stone because millions of us separately cannot unlearn all his lies, distortions, arrogance, ignorance and crimes. Of course, he has (presumably) 18 months to go. But do you think, however much he may talk about his legacy, it’s pretty fixed by this point? Jonathan Alter: Oh yeah, it’s fixed. I mean he will be seen as the worst president in American history, and it’s not a close contest. And, you know, historians during and after his first term considered him the worst president in American history, and that judgment has been confirmed. But, unfortunately, he’s not gonna be that easy to expunge. You know, I had thought when I wrote a book – called American Reckoning that came out in 2024 – I had some lines from Ozymandias in that book ‘cause I thought there was a chance that there would be nothing left of him. That he wouldn’t be remembered at all if Kamala Harris won the election, that he would just be this really unfortunate blip – you know, he’d quickly enter Millard Fillmore territory. But that is not gonna be the case now. He will be remembered. This era will be, for better and much more often for worse, known as the Trump era. It’s not gonna be the Trump-Biden era. It’s gonna be the Trump era with everything that comes with that. A lot of what he did will be taken down. But some of it can’t be taken down. So if he manages to get an arch built, it’s gonna be kind of hard to take that down. I think he’s a hugely memorable president. In terms of him being a hugely consequential president…now that we’re getting into some irreversible things going on with Iran, he may well be seen as an enormously consequential president. In that sense, he can be like more odious, more menacing Nixon. So Gerald Ford becomes president and he brings in a new attorney general, former University of Chicago president named Edward Levi, and it takes Levi about 18 months to restore the integrity and credibility of the Department of Justice with the help of some new laws, and we will need some new laws. We’ll need to not just reverse these executive orders, but actually codify [changes]. The way he becomes an enormously consequential president, Mark, is if J.D. Vance or even Marco Rubio gets elected in 2028. Then we’re truly living in a different country because a lot of this terrible stuff that he’s done will become entrenched and very hard to reverse Mark Green: You just mentioned Iran. The President and Pentagon are right now deciding between two very unenviable options from his point of view - and for America. Either we’ll massively bomb, which he loves threatening to do, or TACO (Trump Always Chickens Out) again, again, again, saying, “Oh, we’re gonna have a ceasefire ‘cause they wanna negotiate.” What do you think he’ll do and why? Jonathan Alter: Well, I think that he will do what he always does, which is one thing on Monday, another thing on Tuesday, a third thing on Wednesday, and you’ll just see this intermittent bombing and then, “No, now we’re gonna negotiate.” Maybe they’ll come back to the table, sign another ceasefire, then they’ll have another bombing and, you know, somebody’ll violate the ceasefire and it’ll just be this for a long time. So it’s already, according to Paul Krugman, close to or already too late for him to get gas prices down before the midterms. The whole world now rightly believes that the Iranians are holding him hostage the way they arguably held Jimmy Carter hostage, as I wrote about in my biography of Carter and that they basically won this war. They’re much more clever negotiators and they have a lot of leverage. Mark Green: I have a question internationally - especially after he humiliated himself after the World Cup. Do you think the world or our allies will ever again trust an American president or America, given how often Trump has been contemptuous of truth and [existing treaties] Jonathan Alter: I don’t believe in that word “ever.” I’ve been around long enough to know. So you get a new American president and a new generation of European leaders, and they develop new relationships. And the other thing to understand is that international relations are not built on trust. Trust is very helpful to coming to agreement. But basically, international relations are more along the line of what Reagan said about dealing with Russia, “Trust but verify,” right? So will you have more skepticism? Yes, but what are they motivated by? Are they motivated by trust, or are they motivated by their interests? If it’s in their interest to deal with the United States, to sign a deal with them on this or that, they will do so, Trump notwithstanding. If it’s not in their interest, they won’t. Mark Green: Let me move on looking ahead, if I can optimistically. This is called Changing America. How can America change? For example, the likely Maine Democratic Senate nominee, after Plattner withdrew, is proposing that we abolish ICE because it’s become almost a personal Gestapo for Trump. [Give it] maybe a new name, slash it three-fourths, with the savings going to a childcare tax credit. Is this a good idea for a candidate to propose and a good idea for the next president to accept? Jonathan Alter: I think it’s a good idea if you’re running in the Democratic primary, but it’s not a great general election issue ‘cause it’s too easily twisted into a variation on “Defund the Police.” Well, border security is very popular, and to say, “in the future, we’ll create a new border agency” is not very smart. So I think it’s much better to say, “We are going to dramatically overhaul ICE. We’re gonna ban the use of masks. We are going to cut its budget because it’s way, way overfunded, and use some of those savings, and we are going to improve eligibility standards.” Mark Green: But as a leading idea, for the next president? Jonathan Alter: Yeah, I think if after he’s elected, [it would be good] to say, “You know, the name ICE has so many negative connotations that I’m gonna do what many presidents have done,” starting with Franklin Roosevelt, who was always opening and then shutting and reopening agencies with different names. And there will be a real opportunity for a new Democratic president to have very aggressive ethics legislation. Some of it should include building support for a constitutional amendment on campaign finance, since the Supreme Court’s not gonna help. But campaign finance, it’s, it’s actually pretty popular. Mark Green: Okay. In that spirit, how about an amendment on not making the pardon power unaccountab