Become an Epic Product Engineer

Kent C. Dodds

Become an Epic Product Engineer is Kent C. Dodds's interview podcast about skills that stay valuable as AI takes on more implementation: product engineering - blending technical depth with product judgment, user empathy, and problem clarity. Each episode is a long-form conversation with a guest who has shipped real software and cares about building the right thing before making it right. You get full audio, transcripts, structured show notes, homework (one concrete action to try), and links from the conversation. Canonical home for the show and every episode page: https://www.epicproduct.engineer/become-an-epic-product-engineer-podcast New episodes publish on Wednesdays (America/Denver). Video is added on Transistor for supported podcast apps when available. Complements Better with Kent - Kent's solo series on durable skills for people who ship software.

  1. The technical person in the room - product engineering with Sean Roberts

    2 days ago ·  Video

    The technical person in the room - product engineering with Sean Roberts

    Kent talks with Sean Roberts, engineer at PhotoShelter, about product engineering shaped by agency work and small teams: being the technical person in sales conversations early, planning with product judgment, and knowing when to speak up (and when to listen). They discuss why implementation skill still matters in the AI era, how to avoid "vibes-only" product calls, budgeting and sequencing work with business context, and why striking up real conversations (with customers or anyone) is a trainable muscle. (00:00) - Introduction to Product Engineering (02:11) - Agency work and customer conversations (08:47) - The technical person in the room (16:54) - Determining business goals (26:48) - Planning and the dark forest (35:10) - Relationships and positive feedback (40:21) - Homework: talk to someone new Sean's path is a familiar pattern for this season: years of agency and startup work where engineers sit close to customers, budgets are real, and the person writing code is often in the room when the problem gets defined. He describes learning to ask questions on sales calls as a junior developer, sometimes literally driving the founder to the meeting, and translating needs into feasible software on the spot. The middle of the episode turns toward planning inside a product company: helping teams separate solved problems from "dark forest" work, pushing back on specs that underestimate legacy complexity, and bringing beginner's mind even when you are senior. Sean is honest that much of his product sense today is still conversation-driven, and he wants better analytics to complement that, not replace it. Kent and Sean also touch the emotional side of the job: positive feedback when you save someone tedium, the risk of changing UX too often because *you* are bored, and why relationships matter if you want to hear "you made my life easier." The homework is deliberately low ceremony: talk to someone you do not normally talk to and practice curiosity. Homework Ask someone you do not normally talk to at work for 15 minutes: a salesperson, PM, support lead, or another engineer on a different team.Ask about their job, challenges, and customers; practice translating what you hear into software constraints without jumping to solutions too fast.If work feels awkward, practice the same muscle outside work (cashier, server, neighbor) - the goal is conversation comfort, not a formal interview.Resources PhotoShelterSean Roberts - GitHubGuest: Sean Roberts Company: PhotoShelterGitHub: @seanroberts𝕏: @sean_j_robertsHost: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: Kent C. DoddsPodcast: epicproduct.engineerSee on Epic Product Engineer

    44 min
  2. Software architecture, human judgment, and AI's limits with Grady Booch

    10 Jun ·  Video

    Software architecture, human judgment, and AI's limits with Grady Booch

    Kent talks with Grady Booch about what software engineering still means in the age of AI agents, why implementation is only one part of the work, and why human judgment remains central to building durable systems. They discuss software architecture, the limits of large language models, computable minds, product engineering across different risk and complexity levels, and the kind of curiosity that helps engineers grow beyond a narrow slice of the field. (00:00) - Introduction to Product Engineering (01:00) - Grady Booch background (06:47) - The Last Software Engineer (09:00) - Will the software industry end? (10:04) - Consciousness and the computable mind (20:13) - What is software engineering? (27:45) - Software architecture and agents (35:30) - The ceiling for LLMs on implementation (39:33) - Durable skills and human judgment (41:39) - Curiosity beyond your domain (45:47) - Homework: read foreign source code Grady brings a rare long-view perspective to the AI and software engineering conversation: early computing, Rational Software, UML, IBM Research, NASA work, software architecture, and current research into computing and the human experience. That background gives this episode a useful tension. Kent and Grady do not agree on every framing, especially around whether the software development industry could eventually "end," but they find common ground around judgment, curiosity, and the responsibility engineers have for what they build. A major theme is that implementation is not the whole of software engineering. Grady breaks the work into a broader journey from imagination to executable artifacts, with computer science, algorithms, architecture, organizational forces, economics, risk, and ethics all shaping the result. Agents and LLMs can help with some of that work, but Grady argues they remain unreliable narrators: useful, fast, and sometimes impressive, while still needing experienced humans who can smell when the work is going off the rails. The episode closes with a practical challenge for engineers: broaden your judgment by studying systems and ideas outside your usual domain. Read unfamiliar source code. Read books outside your lane. Build the curiosity that gives your technical decisions more context. Homework Read the source code for a system that is completely foreign to your usual work.Use historical or open source systems like MacPaint, MediaWiki, or the Linux kernel to study different constraints and architectures.Read a book outside your domain, such as The Sciences of the Artificial, Systemantics, or The Society of Mind. Resources Grady BoochComputing: The Human ExperienceThe Last Software EngineerThe End of History and the Last ManAnil Seth: Why AI is unlikely to become consciousKlugeThe Society of MindWorld ModelsGlobal Workspace TheoryA Robust Layered Control System for a Mobile RobotI Am a Strange LoopThe C++ Programming LanguageD3Victorian Engineering ConnectionsComputer History Museum Software History CenterMacPaint and QuickDraw Source CodeMediaWiki Source CodeLinux Kernel ArchivesThe Sciences of the ArtificialSystemantics Guest: Grady Booch Company: Computing: The Human ExperienceGitHub: @gradybooch𝕏: @grady_booch Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: kentcdodds-plusPodcast: epicproduct.engineer See on Epic Product Engineer

    47 min
  3. User outcomes, workflow design, and biotech software - product engineering with Swizec Teller

    3 Jun

    User outcomes, workflow design, and biotech software - product engineering with Swizec Teller

    Kent talks with Swizec Teller about product engineering for software that serves real businesses and non-developer users: how to learn a domain you did not grow up in, how to spot hidden friction by watching people work, and why the best product work focuses on outcomes, not engineering puzzles. They talk through biotech, internal tooling, habits users build around buggy software, feature placement, success metrics, and how to widen the pit of success for people who are just trying to do their jobs. (00:00) - Intro (01:04) - Swizec's path from startups to biotech (02:18) - Learning a domain you didn't grow up in (05:14) - Widening the pit of success (09:46) - Introducing workflow changes without friction (12:11) - Feature flags and early feedback loops (16:11) - How to find real user needs (20:02) - What support tickets tell you about users (22:55) - Reading friction as a product signal (24:51) - Automation and what it changes for users (26:58) - Where to place new capabilities (29:26) - Breaking big ideas into shippable pieces (33:31) - Defining success before you ship (37:27) - Software is valuable for what users can now do Swizec brings a perspective that broadens the season in a useful way. Instead of developer-facing tools, he has spent years building software that supports biotech, healthcare, and other real-world businesses where the user is trying to get work done, not admire your architecture. That makes the conversation very grounded in observation: shadowing experts, noticing workaround behavior, understanding existing habits, and putting new capabilities exactly where people already look. The second half of the episode turns that into a practical product loop. Swizec and Kent talk about defining success before you ship, measuring whether a workflow actually improved, and balancing long-range vision with the adjacent possible of what today's technology can support. The result is a strong reminder that software is valuable because of the user's new "superpower," not because the implementation was clever. Homework Spend one hour watching users use your software.If you do not have direct access to users, ask your manager or PM to connect you with someone internally, or watch a partner or friend try a real workflow while you take notes.Treat every workaround or confusing step you see as a potential product opportunity. Resources Swizec TellerSwizec newsletterSwizec Teller - GitHub Guest: Swizec Teller GitHub: @Swizec𝕏: @swizec Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: kentcdodds-plusPodcast: epicproduct.engineer See on Epic Product Engineer

    40 min
  4. User empathy, feedback loops, and what not to build - product engineering with Jack Ryan

    27 May

    User empathy, feedback loops, and what not to build - product engineering with Jack Ryan

    Kent talks with Jack Ryan, Principal Engineer at Intercom, about product engineering at scale: why implementation is only part of the job, how to broaden what you measure as success beyond shipping tickets, and why customer feedback is an input, not a product roadmap. They cover startup lessons from property tech, metrics vs. conversation, AI-era decision-making, performance trade-offs, PM/engineering overlap, and practical ways engineers can tighten feedback loops without outsourcing judgment to users. Jack brings a useful split perspective: early UK proptech startup experience where engineering success and company success were basically the same thing, followed by years of technical leadership at Intercom without people management. That combination shows up throughout the episode in how he talks about responsibility, ambiguity, and what still matters when agents can generate more code faster. A big theme is reframing success. Instead of celebrating "I shipped the ticket on time," Jack argues product engineers look back at whether the thing they shipped is being used, whether customers are happy, and whether the work connected to business outcomes. Metrics help start those conversations, but he is skeptical of sweating small week-to-week movements on a single number when qualitative signals and customer conversations often tell you more. The close is especially practical: engineers can use their craft to improve product judgment, not only implementation - by wiring up real customer feedback channels (Slack feeds, sales-call snippets, forward-deployed engineer patterns) and learning to ask *why* people want something before deciding what to build. Homework Find good sources of customer feedback in your org (support, sales, success, research, or forward-deployed engineers).Use engineering to put that feedback somewhere you will actually see it regularly - wire up a Slack channel, dashboard, or digest so the signal can "wash over you" the way Jack describes.Practice asking *why* a customer wants something before treating their feature request as the spec. Resources Jack Ryan - Intercom BlogIntercomrequisite (Intercom open source) Guest: Jack Ryan Company: IntercomGitHub: @jmfryan𝕏: @jmfryan Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: kentcdodds-plusPodcast: epicproduct.engineer See on Epic Product Engineer

    53 min
  5. Primitives, agent UX, and Executor - product engineering with Rhys Sullivan

    20 May

    Primitives, agent UX, and Executor - product engineering with Rhys Sullivan

    Kent talks with Rhys Sullivan about building Executor and thinking like a product engineer in the AI-agent era: how to design the right primitives, why agent experience is becoming its own product surface, and how to keep quality high when shipping has never been easier. They cover MCP, code mode, approvals, workspace scoping, docs and APIs as user experience, and why slowing down can still be the right move even when agents make speed feel free. Rhys has an unusually current perspective on product engineering because he is working right at the edge of the agent tooling shift. The conversation starts with his recent work on Vercel Domains and then moves into Executor, where the challenge is no longer just implementing integrations, but choosing the abstractions that make a system composable, safe, and pleasant to use over time. What makes the episode strong is how often it comes back to product judgment instead of novelty. Rhys and Kent talk about finding the right primitives, observing how other products solve hard UX problems, resisting the urge to ship every request immediately, and building systems that help agents without letting them become dangerously "helpful." Homework Create a dedicated notes channel or system where you save examples of products doing something well.Use those notes as reusable product input: when you need to build a flow later, pull the examples back up instead of starting from scratch. Resources ExecutorRhys Sullivan - siteExecutor - GitHubOpenCode Guest: Rhys Sullivan Company: ExecutorGitHub: @RhysSullivan𝕏: @RhysSullivan Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: kentcdodds-plusPodcast: epicproduct.engineer See on Epic Product Engineer

    41 min
  6. Customer research, desire, and Sales Safari - product engineering with Alex Hillman

    13 May

    Customer research, desire, and Sales Safari - product engineering with Alex Hillman

    Kent talks with Alex Hillman of Stacking the Bricks about customer research, product fit, and the kind of product engineering that starts before implementation: understanding who you are serving, what they already believe, and how to make people feel understood instead of sold to. They cover audience selection, observational research, helping in public, aligning your work with customer and business priorities, and why AI makes human judgment, trust, and synthesis more important rather than less. Alex brings a product and marketing lens that fits this season perfectly: great products do not just solve technical problems, they help the right people recognize that you understand their world. The conversation starts with finding an audience and quickly turns into a practical way to build product sense inside a company: learn how customers describe themselves, observe where they gather, listen for the language they use, and speak from their priorities instead of your own taste. The second half gets into Sales Safari, Stacking the Bricks' observational research practice. Alex explains why surveys and interviews can miss important signal, what to look for in real conversations, and how notes on jargon, pain, worldview, and recommendations can turn scattered internet conversations into useful product understanding. The through-line is simple and demanding: reduce the distance between you and the people you serve so your software, messaging, and decisions feel anticipated rather than manipulative. Homework The next time coworkers or product teammates disagree about direction, step back and observe the conversation.Ask: who is this disagreement in service of? Is it serving the customer, the decision maker, the loudest person, or someone else?Practice this once a day or once a week, then use the patterns you notice to decide what you should contribute. Resources Stacking the Bricks30x500The Tiny MBAThe Mom TestAlex Hillman on X Guest: Alex Hillman Company: Stacking the BricksGitHub: @alexknowshtml𝕏: @alexhillman Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: kentcdodds-plusPodcast: epicproduct.engineer See on Epic Product Engineer

    1hr 12min
  7. Speed, prioritization, and maintainability — product engineering with Julius Marminge

    6 May

    Speed, prioritization, and maintainability — product engineering with Julius Marminge

    Kent talks with Julius Marminge about building T3 Code in the agent-orchestrator wave: why speed still matters, why fast shipping does not mean shipping every possible feature, and how product judgment becomes more important as parallel AI workflows make implementation cheap. They dig into dogfooding, core-product trade-offs, monetization pressure, customization vs defaults, and how to keep agent-built software maintainable over time. Julius is building right in the middle of one of the fastest-moving product categories in software, and that gives this episode a useful tension: everything feels possible, but that does not mean everything belongs in the product. The conversation covers the shift from one-agent-at-a-time coding to orchestration, why T3 Code focuses so much on a fast app layer, and how Julius thinks about what should live in the core product versus forks, plugins, or future work. The deeper lesson is about judgment under speed. Julius and Kent keep returning to the same idea from different angles: when agents can generate a lot of implementation quickly, the real work is deciding what is worth building, what will age well, and what future decisions you might accidentally box yourself out of. Homework Take a step back and look at your product from the whole picture, not just the slice you currently touch.Before prioritizing a feature, ask whether it keeps the product maintainable long-term and whether it fits the job to be done for your users. Resources T3 CodeT3 ChatJulius Marminge — GitHubOpenCode Guest: Julius Marminge GitHub: @juliusmarminge𝕏: @jullerino Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: kentcdodds-plusPodcast: epicproduct.engineer See on Epic Product Engineer

    42 min
  8. Stakeholder empathy, UX, and durable product skills — product engineering with Jamon Holmgren

    29 Apr

    Stakeholder empathy, UX, and durable product skills — product engineering with Jamon Holmgren

    Kent talks with Jamon Holmgren about product engineering from a long-running consultancy lens: how working with clients, stakeholders, and non-technical users sharpens your product sense, and why those skills matter even more as implementation gets cheaper with AI. They cover React Native, consulting, game design, stakeholder failures, feedback loops, and what software builders need to keep learning as the job shifts up the stack. Jamon brings a useful mix to this conversation: founder of Infinite Red, longtime consultant, React Native specialist, and now indie game developer. That perspective makes the episode unusually practical. He has spent years watching where projects go wrong when product thinking is weak: bad requirements, unclear stakeholder alignment, UX details nobody owned, and engineers optimizing the wrong thing too early. The thread through the whole episode is durability. Product engineering is not just about shipping faster with agents or getting better at a specific tool. It is about understanding people, shaping better requirements, recognizing when the human side of the workflow matters more than the code, and making decisions that keep paying off as the technology changes around you. Homework Sit down with a non-technical person and watch them try to use a feature you built.Write down every hesitation, workaround, double-click, or confusing step you notice, then use that list to reprioritize what you fix next. Resources Infinite RedJamon Holmgren — siteNight Shift Agentic WorkflowGunship Origins on Steam Guest: Jamon Holmgren Company: Infinite RedGitHub: @jamonholmgren𝕏: @jamonholmgren Host: Kent C. Dodds Website: kentcdodds.com𝕏: @kentcdoddsGitHub: @kentcdoddsYouTube: kentcdodds-plusPodcast: epicproduct.engineer See on Epic Product Engineer

    56 min
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About

Become an Epic Product Engineer is Kent C. Dodds's interview podcast about skills that stay valuable as AI takes on more implementation: product engineering - blending technical depth with product judgment, user empathy, and problem clarity. Each episode is a long-form conversation with a guest who has shipped real software and cares about building the right thing before making it right. You get full audio, transcripts, structured show notes, homework (one concrete action to try), and links from the conversation. Canonical home for the show and every episode page: https://www.epicproduct.engineer/become-an-epic-product-engineer-podcast New episodes publish on Wednesdays (America/Denver). Video is added on Transistor for supported podcast apps when available. Complements Better with Kent - Kent's solo series on durable skills for people who ship software.

Information

  • Creator
    Kent C. Dodds
  • Years Active
    2k
  • Episodes
    15
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2026 Kent C. Dodds Tech LLC. All rights reserved.
  • Show Website
    Become an Epic Product Engineer

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