Conversing with Mark Labberton

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Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

  1. 2 days ago

    An Unnecessary War, with Daniel Zoughbie

    Why are we still "kicking the hornet's nest"? The last time Mark Labberton interviewed Daniel Zoughbie (UC Berkeley/UCSF) for his expertise on international diplomacy in the Middle East, there was not yet an Iran war. Regardless of your geographical distance, this war is imminently important as it escalates and impacts not just Iran but the entire Middle East and the entire world economy. "War is really supposed to be a last resort." Taking seriously both the significance and validity of Israel as a nation and the need for appropriate and just treatment of all Jews, Christians, and Muslims during a time of rising anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, this conversation comes at a volatile moment, pregnant with violence and chaos in American foreign policy. Starting the timeline at the 2018 US exit from the "Iran nuclear deal" (the Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) Zoughbie discusses a variety of interconnected issues, including the role of Middle Eastern geography such as the Strait of Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab ("Gate of Tears"), the proliferation cascade a Saudi Arabian nuclear program could set off, and the difference between tactical brilliance and strategic vision. Together, they also consider hopes for improvement, looking at Gerald Ford's unpopular but effective ultimatum that forced Egypt and Israel to talk; the Olmert-Abbas negotiations that almost reached a two-state solution; the role of Christianity in politics; the danger of national pride; wisdom from antiquity in Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus the Great; and a definition of greatness that has nothing to do with force. Episode Highlights Regarding the term "an unnecessary war": "I think the word 'unnecessary' is absolutely the appropriate term, and I might just add another term: unjust. War is really supposed to be a last resort." "Iran has discovered not only that they have this nuclear program, which is incredibly powerful, but they've discovered that they have this power to shut off world's economy [through The Strait of Hormuz]." "Exiting [the JCPOA—Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action] was a really, really big blunder because we did not have anything else to fall back on. The Iranians pointed to this and said, 'Look, we can't trust your word.'" "I feel like the current atmosphere in Washington is really about 'me, mine, and more.' And for us to really have a change in our foreign policy ... we really need to think beyond ourselves as a country." "We'll always try to turn every problem into a nail, right? And we'll use our hammer to deal with that problem. And that's exactly why we're in this mess in the first place." "Greatness is not about testosterone shots. It's about being able to show mercy. It's about being able to see the humanity in others, even your enemy, and ultimately what I would call Herodotus's paradox, which is that the mightiest of the mighty turns an enemy into a friend." About Daniel Zoughbie Daniel E. Zoughbie is a complex-systems scientist, diplomatic historian, and expert on presidential decision-making. He is associate project scientist at the UCSF/UCB Center for Global Health Delivery, Diplomacy, and Economics; principal investigator of Berkeley's Middle East and North Africa Diplomacy, Development, and Defense Initiative; and a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council's MENA Futures Lab. He wrote Kicking the Hornet's Nest: U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East from Truman to Trump and Indecision Points. He founded Microclinic International, whose model has reached refugee and low-income communities across four continents, and studied at Oxford as a Marshall and Weidenfeld Scholar. Helpful Links and Resources Kicking the Hornet's Nest, Zoughbie's 2025 book on twelve presidents and the Middle East https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Kicking-the-Hornets-Nest/Daniel-E-Zoughbie/9781668085226 "Toxic Foreign Policy and Citizen Diplomacy," Zoughbie's first Conversing conversation: https://comment.org/podcasts/toxic-foreign-policy-and-citizen-diplomacy/ "The Lesson Trump Can Take From Herodotus' Paradox" https://www.theamericanconservative.com/the-lesson-trump-can-take-from-herodotus-paradox/ UN Security Council Resolution 2231, which endorsed the JCPOA https://main.un.org/securitycouncil/en/content/2231/background "World Oil Transit Chokepoints," the US Energy Information Administration on Hormuz and the Bab el-Mandab https://www.eia.gov/international/content/analysis/special_topics/World_Oil_Transit_Chokepoints/ Gerald R. Ford's 1977 Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary commencement address, quoted at length in this episode https://www.christianitytoday.com/2006/12/gerald-r-ford-lessons-from-presidency/ Herodotus, The Histories, Book 1, where Croesus consults the Oracle and Cyrus spares him https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0126:book%3D1 American University of Beirut, Zoughbie's standing example of citizen diplomacy https://aub.edu.lb/ Show Notes The 2018 exit from the Iran Nuclear Deal (the JCPOA, or Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action) as the origin point of the current war P5+1: US, UK, Russia, China, France, plus Germany What the deal never covered: missiles, proxies, regional behavior Nuclear non-proliferation In the wake of the US bombing of Iran: enrichment stockpiles, IAEA detections, inspectors no longer on the ground An unnecessary and unjust war How to work backward from the real goals of American national security Proliferation cascade risk: Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt Leverage the US still holds through China, Russia, India, and Pakistan The Saudi nuclear offer, walked back a day later over Israeli recognition Strait of Hormuz geography: 21 miles wide, shipping lanes two miles each The Red Sea, the Houthis, and the Bab el-Mandab ("The Gate of Tears") Israel's tactical brilliance and strategic blindness Mossad's mottos, drawn from Proverbs, and the danger of self-deception 1967 revisited: not a short war but a nuclear near-miss Gerald Ford as counterexample: the ultimatum that opened Egypt-Israel talks Gerald Ford's 1977 Gordon-Conwell address and his oath on the book of Proverbs Hubris: ancient and current Testosterone shots, lethality, and the inverse of humility Pastors and power in the Oval Office Reinhold Niebuhr, Karl Barth, and Christian nationalism Herodotus, Croesus, and Cyrus: mercy as the measure of greatness The path to Tehran runs through Jerusalem The Olmert-Abbas negotiations as a known formula Citizen diplomacy and the American University of Beirut What listeners can do, including welcoming Middle Eastern neighbors #Conversing #MarkLabberton #DanielZoughbie #IranWar #ForeignPolicy #StraitOfHormuz #NuclearProliferation #MiddleEast #Diplomacy #FaithAndPolitics Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    An Unnecessary War, with Daniel Zoughbie

  2. 28 Jul

    What Forms a Christian Disciple?, with Tod Bolsinger

    What is it that actually forms our inner reality? Our values, our perspective, our judgment, our understanding of wisdom about the issues that really matter? What difference does that make in Christian character formation? The American church consistently produces fruit that many of its own leaders either don't recognize, don't want, or disapprove of. Under- and malformed Christian people reflect a grounding in the surrounding culture rather than the character and love and gospel of Jesus Christ. In this episode, author, professor, and consultant Tod Bolsinger argues that culture is the thing that forms you before you ever realize it, let alone consent to it. He suggests that the soil of community and belonging—rooted in attachment, vulnerability, trust, and joy—is what makes sense of exemplary models of Christian formation. "If you wanna grow good fruit—abundant harvests of good fruit—you don't focus on the fruit, you focus on the soil." With Mark Labberton, Tod reflects on the agricultural model of spiritual formation; regenerative farming and the impact of soil health on the quality of the fruit; the example of Andre Trocme and the French Huguenots of Le Chambon-sur-Lignon, village whose radical hospitality saved thousands of Jews during the Holocaust; trust, pain, and care The intentionally formative community: joyful belonging, shared values, vulnerable self-reflection, care that isn't comfort. Episode Highlights "There are no dysfunctional systems. They all produce." "These people just lived out their faith." "The precognitive and the unconscious realities of our life are stronger than our words." "Nothing is as formative as the organizational culture you're in." About Tod Bolsinger Tod Bolsinger is co-founder and principal of AE Sloan Leadership, a coaching and consulting firm working with churches, nonprofits, universities, and businesses in seasons of change. He is associate professor of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he earned an MDiv and PhD and served six years as a vice president. His books include "Canoeing the Mountains," "Tempered Resilience," "It Takes a Church to Raise a Christian," and the four-volume Practicing Change Series. He was a Presbyterian pastor for 27 years, most recently in San Clemente, California. Helpful Links and Resources Tod's current project, Good Soil, Holy Ground: Preparing Your People for Facing Change https://www.aesloanleadership.com/good-soil-holy-ground  AE Sloan Leadership, Tod Bolsinger's coaching and consulting firm: https://www.aesloanleadership.com/ Canoeing the Mountains, Bolsinger's best-known book: https://www.ivpress.com/canoeing-the-mountains Tempered Resilience: How Leaders Are Formed in the Crucible of Change: https://www.ivpress.com/tempered-resilience The Practicing Change Series, Bolsinger's four most recent books: https://www.ivpress.com/practicing-change-serie The Biggest Little Farm: https://www.apricotlanefarms.com/biggest-little-farm/ Weapons of the Spirit, Pierre Sauvage's documentary on Le Chambon-sur-Lignon (from the Chambon Foundation): https://www.chambon.org/weapons_en.htm The Patient Ferment of the Early Church by Alan Kreider: https://bakerpublishinggroup.com/books/the-patient-ferment-of-the-early-church/339350 An Everyone Culture by Robert Kegan and Lisa Laskow Lahey, on deliberately developmental organizations: https://store.hbr.org/product/an-everyone-culture-becoming-a-deliberately-developmental-organization/14259 Show Notes Dallas Willard's worry: that spiritual formation would become commoditized—"a cottage industry instead of rooted deeply in the life of the church" "We take on the terroir of the soil, like the way a grape does for wine." "The Biggest Little Farm" documentary: how regenerative agriculture transformed a soil-depleted farm north of Los Angeles "If you wanna grow good fruit—abundant harvests of good fruit—you don't focus on the fruit, you focus on the soil" Rereading the parable of the sower "Jesus literally says that more powerful than his preaching is the soil that the word falls into." Systems perfectly designed for the results they get: "There are no dysfunctional systems. they all produce." No church ever started a program in Christian nationalism, no associate pastor, no strategic plan. "It just came up out of the soil." "Weapons of the Spirit" documentary: Le Chambon-sur-Lignon: How French pastor Andre Trocme led a small village of Huguenots to save thousands of Jewish refugees during the Holocaust. The pastors daughter, at age 93, on being told her parents were heroes: "You're very romantic about this. These people just lived out their faith." Counter-cultural cultivation Examples of radical communal formation: Amish forgiveness, Mother Emanuel AME Cultural competency vs. cultural humility Hospitality as the village economy Mother Teresa and entering East Beirut to save children because of (not in spite of) the bombing Brain scientists reaching for a word: "It is to be in a room with people who are happy to see you." "God, please make me the kind of person my dog thinks I am" The intentionally formative community, which "begins in joy, it ends in death" "Trust, pain, and care": Kegan and Lahey's deliberately developmental organizations, and the three words in the word cloud Are university theology faculty equipped to provide pastoral care to hurting, traumatized students? #SpiritualFormation #Discipleship #ChristianLeadership #LeChambon #AdaptiveLeadership #ChurchLeadership #ChristianNationalism #Fuller Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    What Forms a Christian Disciple?, with Tod Bolsinger

  3. 21 Jul

    Technocracy and Encounter, with Brian Patrick Green

    Can technology be leveraged for the human good? Or will AI technology and its explosive expansion bring about the opposite—a culture that reduces our magnificent humanity to means for technocratic ends? "We can either create the Tower of Babel or we can rebuild the walls of the New Jerusalem." Brian Patrick Green has spent his career asking these difficult questions and seeking to apply ethical theory to real world technological developments. He is director of technology ethics at Santa Clara University's Markkula Center for Applied Ethics, and he is co-author of "Encountering Artificial Intelligence" as well as the newly released "Reclaiming Human Agency in the Age of Artificial Intelligence." In this episode, Green explains the technocratic paradigm—the worldview that reduces people and the created world to raw material, data, and units of production, and sets against it what Pope Francis called a culture of encounter. He and Mark Labberton discuss the argument and impact of Pope Leo XIV's May 2026 encyclical on artificial intelligence, "Magnifica Humanitas", an uplifting moral appeal to troubled people in troubled times. They discuss the Eucharist and the ongoing incarnation as the anchor of Catholic social teaching; how technocratic thinking distorts immigration and war from the Marshall Islands to autonomous drones in Ukraine; just war theory in an age of ever more powerful weapons; the encyclical's principles from human dignity to solidarity; and where AI genuinely serves the vulnerable in medicine, in surfacing hidden bias, and in caring for the Earth. Episode Highlights "It's one thing to have new technology. It's an even bigger question of how we actually use it and how it actually affects people." "If we look at every other human being and we say, "This is an image of God in front of me. This is a person who is loved by God just as much as I am," that really transforms our way of viewing each other. "We can either create the Tower of Babel or we can rebuild the walls of the New Jerusalem. "If one grain of sand says to the other grain of sand, 'I'm better than you are,' that's a weird thing for sand to be saying to each other." "It's an encyclical about AI ostensibly, but really it's an encyclical about humanity … and what our role is here in the universe." About Brian Patrick Green Brian Patrick Green directs technology ethics at the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University, where he teaches engineers to weigh the human stakes of their work. A former genetics major, he turned toward technology's social impact after a year with the Jesuit Volunteers International in the Marshall Islands, a landscape marked by nuclear testing. He earned his doctorate at the Graduate Theological Union and has focused on AI since 2016. He co-authored "Encountering Artificial Intelligence: Ethical and Anthropological Investigations" and the new "Reclaiming Human Agency in the Age of Artificial Intelligence," and advises Catholic and multi-faith AI efforts, including at the Vatican. Helpful Links and Resources "Encountering Artificial Intelligence: Ethical and Anthropological Investigations," a 2023 volume Green contributed to, free online at the Journal of Moral Theology: https://jmt.scholasticahq.com/article/91230-encountering-artificial-intelligence-ethical-and-anthropological-investigations "Reclaiming Human Agency in the Age of Artificial Intelligence," 2025 co-edited by Green, free online: https://jmt.scholasticahq.com/article/154545-reclaiming-human-agency-in-the-age-of-artificial-intelligence "Magnifica Humanitas," Pope Leo XIV's 2026 encyclical on artificial intelligence, on the Vatican site: https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/encyclicals/documents/20260515-magnifica-humanitas.html AI and Faith, led by executive director Greg Cootsona: https://aiandfaith.org/ Notre Dame Institute for Ethics and the Common Good: https://ethics.nd.edu/ "The technocratic paradigm thus involves a double distortion: first, of the human person as reducible to an agent of interventions by which to manipulate life's material conditions; and, second, of the world—including the persons within it—as reducible to a field of raw material to be mastered and manipulated by means of technology. Against such reductions, the Pope urges that we cultivate a "culture of encounter"—a culture that seeks the contact of mind with mind and heart with heart, in a relational sharing of life that embraces the most vulnerable." (from "Encountering Artificial Intelligence: Ethical and Anthropological Investigations", 2023) Show Notes Defining applied ethics and technological ethics Comparing how we use technology versus the technology itself Marshall Islands, Jesuit Volunteers, and a genetics major's turn toward social impact From biotechnology to teaching ethics to engineers, and into AI around 2016 Catholic teaching on Eucharist, communion, and an incarnation that is ongoing and physical Pope Francis and the "culture of encounter" Why the material world and every person carry a sacredness ethics must honor Explaining the technocratic paradigm as a cultural phenomenon and social program Seeing a forest as quantifiable value of lumber; or construing people as cogs, data, units of exploitation Wendell Berry: "There are no unsacred places; / there are only sacred places / and desecrated places." Reducing the sacredness of human life to mere numbers Colonialism, nuclear testing, and islands treated as raw material Immigration read through a technocratic lens on both political sides The opposite of encounter: people as functions to move in or out Just war theory How drones and autonomous weapons turn killing into a problem of mere efficiency Squeezing just war criteria until war becomes nearly impossible Why this moral vision feels preposterous to a de-Christianized culture Culture of encounter, and seeing each other as images of God Romans 12 and the renewing of the mind—in order to transform how we see others Tower of Babel versus rebuilding the New Jerusalem Nehemiah, "synodality," and figuring things out together Dignity, common good, universal destination of goods, subsidiarity, solidarity, social justice Culture of power versus a civilization of love, and Augustine's "City of God" The reach and impact of "Magnifica Humanitas", from tech workers and CEOs to UN ambassadors Embracing the most vulnerable as the measure of encounter AI that serves: medical data, de-biasing loan decisions, watching the Earth from orbit AI that threatens: autonomous warfare, mass surveillance, people reduced to data Human agency, freedom, and the choice ahead #AIEthics #FaithAndTechnology #CatholicSocialTeaching #ArtificialIntelligence #TechnocraticParadigm #PopeLeoXIV #HumanDignity #MagnificaHumanitas #ConversingPodcast Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    Technocracy and Encounter, with Brian Patrick Green

  4. 14 Jul

    Morality and the Supreme Court, with Yuval Levin

    American history is riddled with collisions between legally defensible rulings and morally costly outcomes. Still, "the purpose of law in any society is to embody a moral framework in practice," says Yuval Levin, who joins Mark Labberton to explore the moral architecture in the foundation of the American legal system, as they review the most recent rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court. The Court has just closed one of the most consequential terms in recent memory, articulating the tension between faithfulness to the Constitution and enacting justice and morality. Together they reflect on why and how a system founded on equality must be both majoritarian and counter-majoritarian at once; why a judge's job is to articulate their legal (rather than their moral) opinion; the rise of Constitutional originalism; why pre-Trump conservative arguments win at this Court while "Trumpy" ones lose; the contemporary relevance of the Federalist Papers; what recourse citizens have when they believe the Court has done wrong; and why the American legal system's worst failures still cluster around race. They explore several of the 2025-26 rulings of the Supreme Court, including imposition of tariffs, immigration enforcement, and birthright citizenship, and the Voting Rights Act. Episode Highlights "The purpose of law in any society is to embody a moral framework in practice." "This is a very good time to get to know The Federalist Papers." "The role of the judge in the American system is to apply the law, not to find the moral answer per se. We hope the law does that, though it doesn't always and we know it." "The American system of government, very much for moral reasons, is expected to be both majoritarian and counter-majoritarian." [Regarding Justice Gorsuch and Justice Kavanaugh] "They grew up in the same place. They literally went to the same high school and had the same history teacher. Their mothers knew each other … They agreed with each other 52% of the time in this last term of the Supreme Court." [Courts to Trump] "You are in charge of the executive branch, but the executive branch is not in charge of the American government." "If you come to this court with a pre-Trump conservative legal argument, you're going to win. If you come to this court with a Trumpy legal argument, you're going to lose." "We experienced the high water mark of executive power about a year ago, and it is now receding." "The areas where it has failed most are concentrated around questions of race. That has been true from the beginning. It is thankfully less true than it used to be, but it is still true, and I think we have to be uniquely sensitive to those questions for that reason." About Yuval Levin Yuval Levin is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, where he holds the Beth and Ravenel Curry Chair in Public Policy and directs Social, Cultural, and Constitutional Studies. He founded and edits National Affairs, and he is a senior editor at The New Atlantis and a contributing editor at National Review. His books include "The Great Debate," "The Fractured Republic," "A Time to Build," and most recently, "American Covenant." He served on the White House domestic policy staff under George W. Bush and earned his PhD at the University of Chicago's Committee on Social Thought. Helpful Links and Resources Yuval Levin at the American Enterprise Institute: https://www.aei.org/profile/yuval-levin/ National Affairs, the publication Levin founded and edits: https://nationalaffairs.com/authors/detail/yuval-levin American Covenant, by Yuval Levin: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/american-covenant/9780465040742/?lens=basic-books A Time to Build, by Yuval Levin: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/yuval-levin/a-time-to-build/9781541699281/?lens=basic-books The Federalist Papers, full text at the Library of Congress: https://guides.loc.gov/federalist-papers Trump v. Slaughter, the decision overturning Humphrey's Executor (June 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/25-332_qn12.pdf Learning Resources, Inc. v. Trump, the IEEPA tariffs decision (February 20, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-1287_4gcj.pdf Louisiana v. Callais, the Voting Rights Act decision (April 29, 2026): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/24-109_21o3.pdf Coverage of the birthright citizenship ruling in Trump v. Barbara, SCOTUSblog: https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-trumps-order-ending-birthright-citizenship/ Show Notes Yuval Levin's legal/constitutional frame: The law exists to put a society's moral convictions into workable practice. On "All men are created equal": If no one has natural authority over anyone else, we decide by majority vote—but equality also means the minority keeps its rights no matter who wins The Constitution assigns those two jobs to different institutions and lets them fight: Congress and the president answer to majorities, the courts deliberately do not Life tenure and fixed salaries exist so justices can protect minority rights without fear of majority reprisal A judge's job is to say what the law is, not to reach the most just result; therefore good judges regularly land where they might wish they didn't. What citizens can do when the Court rules wrongly: If it misread a statute, Congress can rewrite it. Constitutional rulings are harder to undo, but examples include the 16th Amendment (re: income tax) and the 14th Amendment (re: black citizenship, answering the Court directly) The pro-life movement's 50-year strategy to overturn Roe v. Wade Levin on the difficulty of simply being in the political minority, and why the system tries to make everyone a winner sometimes Originalism began as a limit on judicial power and judges' preferences Legal originalism looks for original public meaning, not the drafters' intent Parallel to biblical interpretation, where faithful readers reach wildly different conclusions The challenge of interpreting and applying the Constitution to matters of freedom and democracy today With Congress mostly absent, the Court is now deciding questions of executive power the Federalist Papers were written about Justices Kavanaugh and Gorsuch: Same age, same hometown, same high school history teacher, agreed only 52% of the time this term Trump v. Slaughter ends the independent agency: the Court overturned Humphrey's Executor, and the president can now fire FTC-style commissioners at will 2026 Court rulings also told the president no: on tariffs, on the National Guard in Illinois without the governor's consent, and on birthright citizenship Levin's rule of thumb: Pre-Trump conservative arguments win at this Court, Trumpy arguments lose Yuval Levin: Executive power peaked about a year ago and is now receding. Louisiana v. Callais guts Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act by requiring proof of racial intent A legal bind: Black voters vote Democratic by 90% in the South, so a racist map and a purely partisan map look identical Levin defends the ruling as law and grieves it as outcome—several Black-held Southern seats will likely be redistricted away Why he opposes reauthorizing the VRA with race-based set-aside districts, and where he thinks change should come from instead Software now lets parties gerrymander voter by voter—in New England, Trump won 35% and Republicans hold zero House seats The deceptions of the human heart Does constitutional structure just launder self-interest? The system's deepest failures have always clustered around race Gratitude for the Constitution in America's 250th year #SupremeCourt #Constitution #VotingRights #Originalism #ExecutivePower #FaithAndPolitics #YuvalLevin #Conversing Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    Morality and the Supreme Court, with Yuval Levin

  5. 7 Jul

    What It Is Like to Be Dying, with Jeff Schloss

    Against persistent fear of death, mortality avoidance, and the vices that emerge from terror management, this episode offers a personal testimony of a Christian experience of dying. With scientific precision, disarming honesty, and immense gratitude for life, biologist Jeff Schloss offers an intimate, firsthand account of his recent diagnosis of an extremely rare terminal neurological disease: multiple system atrophy (MSA). His doctors put the prognosis plainly: "It is terminal, it is incurable, and it's rapidly progressive." A longtime and beloved Westmont College biology professor and senior scholar at BioLogos, Schloss offers speaks directly to the experience of dying—as he encounters each new week of this rapidly progressive disease. He reconsiders the meaning of a "good death": increased gratitude and awareness of gift, the reality of pain, the loss of surfing and guitar-playing, the sacredness of family, and the surprising nearness of Christ as everything else falls away. A profound witness to Christian attitudes about life and death, Schloss seeks not a hero's death, but a daily, humble life-giving commerce with Christ. Schloss revisits a life that began in a nonreligious Jewish refugee family and pivoted through a dramatic conversion as a college-dropout surf bum in Hawaii. He traces what has changed, and what hasn't, now that death is no longer an abstraction but a daily fact in his body. With pastoral care and hope, Mark Labberton explores with Schloss what it means to experience dying rather than simply anticipate it, the grief of losing fifty years of surfing and guitar-playing to pain and paralysis, the gift of Simone Weil's writing on suffering, the Heidelberg Catechism's opening words on "our only comfort in life and in death," and the difference between the thrill of surfing and the sacredness of family and commerce with Christ. Episode Highlights I knew from the second grade that I wanted to be a scientist. I was out collecting butterflies and dragonflies and looking through microscopes at all sorts of things that I couldn't believe were there. As we were talking, it just occurred to me ... he either had what I wanted, or he was clinically crazy. It is terminal, it is incurable, and it's rapidly progressive ... the process of dying I find it fascinating ... It's not fun, but it is fascinating. She wasn't sad just for herself, I'm gonna lose you. And she wasn't sad empathetically just for me, so sorry for you. It was a joint sadness that the life we had hoped to share together, we are not gonna have. The things that are most life giving are out of reach ... I've come to see it's actually not true. The things that have been delightful are out of reach ... the thing that is most life giving, and that is commerce with Christ. I think it was the single most thrilling day of my entire life ... I said, no, those weren't thrilling, those were sacred. I don't want to market this season. I'm not looking for a hero's death, or any kind of publicly attended death. I would have never guessed that in this home stretch, my son and wife could carry me up the slopes of Yosemite Valley. About Jeff Schloss Jeff Schloss has spent four decades at the intersection of evolutionary biology and Christian theology. Now retired as Distinguished Professor of Biology at Westmont College, he continues as senior scholar at BioLogos, working alongside Francis Collins for more than fifteen years. He co-edited "The Believing Primate: Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Reflections on the Origin of Religion" and "Evolution and Ethics: Human Morality in Biological and Religious Perspective," a Templeton Science-Religion Book of Distinction winner. He has lectured at Cambridge, Oxford, and Harvard. Helpful Links and Resources Jeff Schloss's page at BioLogos, where he serves as senior scholar: https://biologos.org/people/jeffrey-schloss Finding Faith: An Evolutionary Biologist Shares His Story, Schloss's own video testimony for BioLogos: https://biologos.org/resources/finding-faith-an-evolutionary-biologist-shares-his-story Tackling the Divide Between Science and Faith, Westmont Magazine's profile of Schloss's career: https://www.westmont.edu/magazine/spring-2025/tackling-divide-between-science-and-faith The Believing Primate: Scientific, Philosophical, and Theological Reflections on the Origin of Religion, Schloss's co-edited volume: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-believing-primate-9780199597086 Evolution and Ethics: Human Morality in Biological and Religious Perspective, Schloss's Templeton Award-winning co-edited volume: https://www.eerdmans.com/9780802826954/evolution-and-ethics/ Alvin Plantinga, Where the Conflict Really Lies: Science, Religion, and Naturalism, source of the Augustinian science concept Schloss references: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/where-the-conflict-really-lies-9780199812097 Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 1, the confession Labberton reads to close the episode: https://www.heidelberg-catechism.com/en/lords-days/1.html Multiple System Atrophy overview, National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke: https://www.ninds.nih.gov/health-information/disorders/multiple-system-atrophy Show Notes Childhood in a nonreligious German Jewish refugee family Grandfather taken by the Gestapo, relatives lost in the Holocaust Early love of butterflies, dragonflies, and microscopes A sixth-grade encounter with Confucius sparks a love of philosophy College philosophy major searching for purpose and for God Dropping out, becoming a surf bum in Hawaii A stranger's dinner invitation becomes a turning point A late-night prayer of surrender met by an unmistakable presence Grad school pairing biology, philosophy, and the study of altruism Alvin Plantinga's Augustinian science and reading creation with a map Decades as senior scholar at BioLogos alongside Francis Collins Why church and science drifted apart over vaccines and politics Science as a reliable path to facts, not truth itself A new diagnosis: rare, terminal, rapidly progressive neurological disease—multiple systems atrophy (MSA) Doctors estimate an average of three years, with wide variation The difference between studying death as a biologist versus the real-time experience of dying A spouse's grief for a shared future that will not happen Losing surfing and guitar-playing as an unplanned kind of fasting Pain described as systemic, exhausting, disorienting Cognitive decline and dark humor about it Distinguishing what is thrilling from what is truly sacred The ache of no longer being able to research and create A flicker of despair met by a choice not to despair Wanting a real death, not a hero's death A wish to thank former students and colleagues before the end Not wanting to become a burden to family Giving God all of one's heart, without earning salvation by it Bonhoeffer's costly grace versus cheap grace Gratitude over entitlement as the ground of faith Simone Weil on suffering as a place grace can work A closing blessing and the Heidelberg Catechism's opening words Carried up the slopes of Yosemite by a son and a wife #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton #JeffSchloss #FaithAndScience #BioLogos #MultipleSystemAtrophy #Mortality #ChristianFaith #Westmont #Gratitude Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    What It Is Like to Be Dying, with Jeff Schloss

  6. 30 Jun

    What's Happening in America?, with David Brooks

    As we come to the 250th celebration of America's founding, what is happening in our country? Pundits, writers, historians, political scientists, and average citizens are all trying to take stock of where we are as a nation. In this episode, we seek perspective by returning to the conversation between Mark Labberton and David Brooks immediately following the 2024 election, before the beginning of Trump's second term and all the events that have unfolded since. Whether you come to the 250th celebrating our national life, or questioning our national life; whether you're in support of what's happening currently in America, or whether you're overwhelmed by so much that you wish was different, may we give thanks. Thanks be to God for the place that we get to live, even as it's a place that is struggling to reach its ideals, and may we continue to pray and seek its welfare, its justice, its purpose, its fairness, and its equity. In this episode, Mark Labberton welcomes David Brooks (The Atlantic, formerly of The New York Times) for reflections about the 2024 General Election, the state of American politics, and how we got here. Together they discuss the multi-generational class divide; sources of alienation and distrust; how loss of faith and meaning influences political life; intellectual virtues of courage, firmness, humility, and flexibility; what it means to be a Republican in exile; the capacity for self-awareness and self-critique; and much more. Episode Highlights "In my opinion, Donald Trump is the wrong answer to the right question." "The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials." "If you tell 51% of the country 'Your voices don't matter,' people are going to get upset." "Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don." "The world just loves a human being that's trying to act like Jesus." Helpful Links and Resources "Confessions of a Republican Exile" (The Atlantic): https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/10/trumpism-republican-party-exile-david-brooks/680243/ How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen, by David Brooks: https://www.amazon.com/How-Know-Person-Seeing-Others/dp/059323006X My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer, by Christian Wiman: https://www.amazon.com/My-Bright-Abyss-Meditation-Believer/dp/0374534373 David Brooks's current writing at The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/david-brooks/ Brooks and Capehart, PBS NewsHour: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/tag/brooks-and-capehart About David Brooks David Brooks is staff writer for The Atlantic and is Presidential Senior Fellow at Yale Jackson School of Global Affairs. Prior to that he wrote for The New York Times for 22 years*.* He is author of How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen; The Second Mountain: The Quest for a Moral Life; Bobos in Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got There; The Social Animal: The Hidden Sources of Love, Character, and Achievement, and is founder of Weave: The Social Fabric Project. Show Notes A spiritual or emotional crisis we're working out in American politics Should we blame inflation and economic factors? (Biden's Covid-19 overstimulation) Class divide is a generational thing High-school-educated voters are increasingly alienated from the Democratic Party Alienation and distrust is a multi-decade process Loss of Faith, Loss of Meaning, and the "Death of God" An exiled Republican "Confessions of a Republican Exile" (via The Atlantic): "A longtime conservative, alienated by Trumpism, tries to come to terms with life on the moderate edge of the Democratic Party." "I'm a Whig." ("Abraham Lincoln was a Whig.") Edmund Burke and epistemological modesty—"don't revolutionize something you don't understand." You should operate on society in the way you operate on your father, with care. Alexander Hamilton Whig tradition is unrepresented in contemporary American politics How David Brooks waffles between Democrat and Republican Isaiah Berlin: "At the rightward edge of the leftward tendency." "The capacity for self-critique" Matt Yglesias Humble, introspective, and "how did we get so out of touch?" Racism and sexism are not what's driving Trump voters "In my opinion, Donald Trump is the wrong answer to the right question." Mark Noll and America's use of the Bible: un-self-aware and un-self-critical Why is there more capacity for self-critique on the Democratic side? Jonathan Rauch and "Epistemic Regime": includes media, universities, scientific research, review process, etc. "There's still a core of people who believe 'if the evidence says x, you should say y.'" "The greatest victory in the history of the world." Intellectual Virtues: Courage, Firmness, Flexibility "Reality is constantly going to surprise you." 1980s Republicanism was more intellectually sophisticated Conservative book publishing *Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Change* by Jonah Goldberg How to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David Brooks "The Stacking Stereotype" "A redistribution of respect" (away from large swaths of America and to elites) "The flow of status and respect in this country has gone to people with elite credentials." "… almost no Trump supporters." "If you tell 51% of the country 'Your voices don't matter,' people are going to get upset." America changing beneath us High level of spiritual and moral authority and low level of intellectual confidence The moral teaching of the New Testament "People are unitary wholes." "I became a Christian around 2013." "Jesus was more a badass revolutionary than an Oxford don." C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien's Christianity "What it's like to be in the claustrophobic mind of a narcissist." Aggression: a joyless way to see the faith What is needed? "I was a 50-year-old atheist." Christian Wiman (My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer): materialistic categories couldn't explain the world "If they made me pope of the evangelicals, which is a job that makes me shudder…" "Be not afraid." "The world just loves a human being that's trying to act like Jesus." David Brooks's teaching at Yale The Long Loneliness: The Autobiography of the Legendary Catholic Social Activist by Dorothy Day #Conversing #DavidBrooks #MarkLabberton #FaithAndPolitics #AmericanPolitics #HowToKnowAPerson #ChristianHumanism #Election2024 Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    What's Happening in America?, with David Brooks

  7. 23 Jun

    Dignity, Difference, and Self-Giving Love, with Tim Shriver

    Tim Shriver has spent a lifetime learning to see the people the rest of us are socialized to look past. The chairman of Special Olympics, co-creator of the Dignity Index, and son of Eunice Kennedy Shriver and Sargent Shriver, he argues that what's tearing America apart isn't how much we differ, but how we treat one another when we do. "We're not being torn apart by difference. We're being torn apart by the way we treat each other when we differ." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Shriver reflects on the teachers who shaped him—students and athletes who taught him a different way of seeing. They discuss the Dignity Index, contempt, toxic empathy that gives way to excusing harm, the role of "self-purification" in Martin Luther King Jr.'s non-violent campaigns, his Catholic faith, and embracing the Eucharist as self-giving love. Episode Highlights "We're not being torn apart by difference. We're being torn apart by the way we treat each other when we differ." "Empathy is knowing and understanding. Dignity is valuing and seeing." "You will have a superpower if you fight for your principles with all the passion you've got and add one principle: treat the other human being with dignity at the same time." "They're not crying because they're sad for the athlete. They're crying because something is coming out of them." "Concretely, you may hold, you may touch, you may drink of the face of God." About Tim Shriver Timothy Shriver has chaired Special Olympics International since 1996, growing the movement to over four million athletes worldwide. The third child of Eunice Kennedy Shriver and Sargent Shriver, he taught for years in New Haven public schools and helped launch the field of social and emotional learning, co-founding and chairing CASEL. In 2018 he founded UNITE to bridge America's political divides and co-created the Dignity Index, an eight-point scale from contempt to respect. He is the author of the New York Times bestselling memoir Fully Alive: Discovering What Matters Most, and holds degrees from Yale and Catholic University and a doctorate from the University of Connecticut. Helpful links and Resources Fully Alive: Discovering What Matters Most, by Tim Shriver https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374535827/fullyalive/ The Call to Unite: Voices of Hope and Awakening, edited by Tim Shriver https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/671260/the-call-to-unite-by-edited-by-tim-shriver-and-tom-rosshirt/ The Dignity Index: https://www.dignity.us Special Olympics: https://www.specialolympics.org "Letter from Birmingham Jail": https://kinginstitute.stanford.edu/letter-birmingham-jail Show Notes Living and teaching in New Haven, Connecticut; learning to see dignity Born 1959; family moves to D.C. after JFK's 1960 election Sargent Shriver, the Peace Corps, and a faith that demanded more Living "eye to eye" in the village Aunt Rosemary and the camp that became Special Olympics "An unapologetic conviction that if we worked together, we could change the world." Choosing teaching over law; a hunger to go deep, not fast The high school visit that changed everything The student who dreamed of waking without braces "They cussed me out... but somehow they also love me" "There is some moment in our lives where being broken leads to freedom." Learning how to see; the blind man and "what do you want?" "They're crying because something is coming out of them." A culture that applauds cutting people off The Dignity Index: contempt to "I love you no matter what"; https://www.dignity.us Gov. Spencer Cox and leading without demonizing Toxic empathy Empathy is not excusing The superpower of human dignity Fighting for your principles and add one: dignity Thomas Merton's "pure glory of God in us" Martin Luther King Jr.'s "self-purification" as a component of non-violent resistance (see "Letter from a Birmingham Jail") The Eucharist: "You may hold, you may touch, you may drink of the face of God" #TimShriver #ConversingPodcast #MarkLabberton #DignityIndex #SpecialOlympics #HumanDignity #Empathy #FaithAndPublicLife

    Dignity, Difference, and Self-Giving Love, with Tim Shriver

  8. 16 Jun

    Poetry, Paradox, and the Absence of God, with Christian Wiman

    A poet who has lived two decades with incurable cancer on what faith sounds like when God feels more absent than present. Christian Wiman joins Mark Labberton to talk poetry, suffering, and friendship. "The presence of God, less so. I experience the absence more than the presence." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Wiman reflects on writing "Every Riven Thing" after a single church service, surviving a last-resort clinical trial, and the friendship behind his new book with Miroslav Volf. Together they discuss the paradox at the heart of poetry, grief that explodes into joy, and why joy asks something of us. They also weigh Heschel and Lewis's clarity, the friendless American male, and chance turned into destiny by constant choice. Episode Highlights "The presence of God, less so. I experience the absence more than the presence." "I would not let go of my despair, even though the poems were showing me something else." "Joy asks something of us on the other side." "The relief came from the communion between people." "I think that that was quite a shock to me to realize that we were each envying what the other had." About Christian Wiman Christian Wiman is a poet, essayist, editor, and translator, and the Clement-Muehl Professor of Communication Arts at Yale Divinity School, where he teaches religion and literature with the Yale Institute of Sacred Music. From 2003 to 2013 he edited Poetry, the oldest magazine of verse in the English-speaking world, tripling its circulation and earning two National Magazine Awards. He is the author, editor, or translator of more than a dozen books, including Every Riven Thing, the memoirs My Bright Abyss and He Held Radical Light, and the genre-blending Zero at the Bone. A former Guggenheim Fellow with two honorary doctorates, he has written candidly about faith and a long struggle with incurable cancer. Helpful Links and Resources Glimmerings: Letters on Faith Between a Poet and a Theologian https://bookshop.org/p/books/glimmerings-letters-on-faith-between-a-poet-and-a-theologian-christian-wiman/1a13ad79a59080d1 My Bright Abyss: Meditation of a Modern Believer https://bookshop.org/p/books/my-bright-abyss-meditation-of-a-modern-believer-christian-wiman/dcebbe4f049250d8 Zero at the Bone: Fifty Entries Against Despair https://penguinbookshop.com/book/9780374603458 Show Notes Author, editor, translator of a dozen-plus books Twenty years living with an incurable cancer diagnosis Editing Poetry magazine amid Ruth Lilly's $200 million gift From editor to Yale Divinity School on one bold letter A last-resort clinical trial: "I definitely thought it was over" "Every Riven Thing" written in under an hour after a first church service Inventing a new poetic form on the spot Compression and paradox: "a great poem is irreducible" "Bittersweet": "all my sour sweet days I will lament and love" Simone Weil's Gravity and Grace and Marilynne Robinson's Housekeeping Absence and presence: "I experience the absence more than the presence" My Bright Abyss and the chapter "God's Truth is Life" "From a Window": grief that suddenly explodes into birds and joy "I would not let go of my despair, even though the poems were showing me something else" Zadie Smith and C.S. Lewis on joy too destabilizing to want "joy asks something of us on the other side" The rare clarity of Heschel and Lewis, marrying reason and imagination Glimmerings: eighteen months of letters with Miroslav Volf "After angels" and a transforming walk near the Div School "the relief came from the communion between people" Friendship and the friendless American male "we were each envying what the other had" West Texas: an expanse "wide open and annihilating, crushing" Ricoeur: chance turned into a destiny by virtue of a constant choice #ChristianWiman #MarkLabberton #Conversing #PoetryAndFaith #Glimmerings #MyBrightAbyss #FaithAndDoubt #MiroslavVolf Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    Poetry, Paradox, and the Absence of God, with Christian Wiman
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Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

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