When Will They Learn?

Hosted by Greg Ashman and Caiti Wade

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Hosted by Greg Ashman and Caiti Wade, ‘When Will They Learn?’ explores what’s trending in the world of education. Each episode, Greg and Caiti engage with podcasts, articles and opinions shaping education discourse, examining these through a science of learning lens. They discuss not just what’s popular, but what’s supported by the evidence. whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

1 day ago

Episode #14 Scandal Du Jour

This week we’re serving up the latest education scandal: the scandal du jour! Before we get into that though, we start off by talking about the Australian Professional Standards for Teachers, specifically referencing the review of the standards. And if you’re an early-bird listener, you can respond to Caiti’s call to action below and get in on the review yourself! Along the way, we unpack the purpose of the standards and whether they really align with that, or even support best practice in the classroom. Next, we dive into Daisy Christodoulou’s latest piece on transferable skills. This is a refreshing take on a popular topic in education discourse, acknowledging why transferable skills are so desirable, and why the research doesn’t support teaching them. Finally, we tackle the scandal du jour: the allegations surrounding Jason Arday. Rather than focusing on the individual, we explore the bigger question of institutional responsibility. What happens when universities, publishers and the wider academic ecosystem all have opportunities to ask difficult questions but don’t? Want to get in touch? Reach out on our socials Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible. Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * Review of the Teacher Standards - Closes August 7th - Caiti’s Call to Action for our listeners * What should an Australian teacher look like now? This is your chance to help decide - AARE * Australian Professional Teacher Standards | AITSL * The Problem with Transferable Skills | Daisy Christodoulou | American Enterprise Institute - AEI * Playbooks, plagiarism and a pig’s head: new claims surrounding a star Cambridge professor | University of Cambridge | The Guardian * Leave Jason Arday alone - this is a scandal of academic educational leadership | Stephen Vainker Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
23 Jul

Episode #13 Once Upon a Time at Mossbourne

This week, we begin with the remarkable story of Mossbourne Victoria Park Academy, exploring how one of England’s highest-performing schools found itself at the centre of controversy over discipline, behaviour, and what happens when a school is accused of being too strict. Greg takes us through the long and fascinating history behind the headlines, raising questions about whether the media really does present the full picture. From there, we discuss the persistent gender imbalance in senior mathematics subjects, unpacking what the evidence says about why these patterns remain and the assumptions that often dominate public debate. Finally, we turn to the use of parent/guardian behaviour contracts in schools, considering what they reveal about the changing relationship between schools and families, where responsibility for student behaviour begins and ends, and why these policies generate such strong reactions. Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible. Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * The school punished for being too strict | Mossbourne Victoria Park Academy * VCE maths enrolments: Victorian student numbers rebound after pandemic slump but gender gap persists * Private school parent behaviour: Why elite schools are introducing mandatory contracts to combat rising entitlement Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
9 Jul

Episode #12 Ooh, gossip!

This week, we’re talking education gossip - not the staffroom kind, but the stories that dominate headlines and social media before anyone has had time to think them through. We start by discussing the debate surrounding school suspensions, isolation, and behaviour management, following on from last episode’s conversation. Along the way, we explore how schools are portrayed in the media and how public narratives can shape perceptions of education. From there, we turn our attention to science education in Australasia before the conversation inevitably drifts into internet arguments, education social media, and why online debates seem so determined to turn every issue into a binary. Finally, we wrap up with a discussion about working-class students in the UK, using a recent news story to reflect on disadvantage, opportunity, and the stories we choose to tell about education. Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us? Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible. Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * Isolation as a form of discipline: how should schools manage poor student behaviour? * No one pedagogy is best: science academics call out ‘binary’ debates in new blueprint — EducationHQ * [Warning: EXPLICIT] How to Disagree | Paul Graham * White working-class children 'failed by schools system' Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
25 Jun

Episode #11 Universal Design for Neurononsense

This week we’re diving into three topics that have generated plenty of headlines, strong opinions, and more than a few questionable cases of what we’ve termed ‘neurononsense’. We unpack discussions around the Victorian' Government’s decision to give principals more powers to suspend students, finally talk about Universal Design for Learning (UDL) and its inherent similarities to learning styles (the neuromyth that keeps on giving!), and talk to technology in the classroom. As always, we’re less interested in what’s popular than what’s supported by evidence - or what’s not. Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us? Get in touch on any of our socials below! We get a lot of listener requests, but will try to cover as many of your suggestions as possible. Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * Victorian public schools suspend about 150 students a day | The Age * Lessons (not) learned: The troubling similarities between learning styles and universal design for learning. | Guy Boysen * ‘They can’t resist them’: teacher reveals extent of digital device distraction | Sarah Duggan Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
11 Jun

Episode #10 All Ashman's Fault

In this episode of When Will They Learn?, Greg and Caiti tackle a stack of education policy debates - beginning with the most pressing and meta question of all: is it, in fact, all Ashman’s fault? From claims that evidence-informed approaches have reduced teaching to “death by PowerPoint” and scripting, to the shift from the reading wars to the emerging learning wars, the conversation explores how policy, ideology and evidence continue to shape the education landscape. The pair also unpack proposals to assess students’ use of AI in NAPLAN, asking what schools are actually for and why writing still matters in an age of generative technology. Finally, they discuss NAPLAN’s role as an accountability measure and whether it can help schools identify ineffective teaching practices. It’s policy-heavy, slightly controversial, and somehow, it all comes back to Ashman. Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us? Get in touch on any of our socials below! Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * Marty’s Blog with the long title on Ashman and Ochre (Warning: explicit language) * Victorian schools: The reading wars are over. The learning wars are just beginning * Principals call for NAPLAN writing test to be axed | The Educator K/12 * Reimagining schools where teachers and students thrive - 128_EDUCATOR_Autumn_2026.pdf Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
28 May

Episode #9 NEUROSCIENCE

This episode’s theme is “neuroscience!” Actually, it’s not, but it comes up a few times. Greg and Caiti kick things off by unpacking a recent article discussing potential limitations of cognitive load theory. They talk about where these sit within the current cognitive load theory research. The conversation then takes an unexpected turn into information theory. What is information? Can meaning actually be transmitted? And what is the meaning of meaning? Expect a detour into entropy, whether it might have a role to play in cognitive load theory, and an unexpected (brief) defence of PowerPoint. Finally, Greg and Caiti dive into the much-discussed attainment grouping report from the Education Endowment Foundation and University College London on mathematics grouping. What do the findings genuinely tell us? What are the limitations? And, most importantly, what should teachers and school leaders actually do when thinking about how to group students? Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us? Get in touch Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane, education consultant and is doing her doctorate in cognitive science. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * Beyond Cognitive Load Theory - by Dr Peter Ellerton, PhD * The Conversation Article [comment section]: Teaching how to think is just as important as teaching anything else * Beyond Cognitive Load Theory: Why Learning Needs More than Memory Management - Published Paper * The Transmission Trap: What information theory tells us about teaching - Christian Moore Anderson * OSF | Cognitive load theory and informational entropy - Greg Ashman Unpublished paper * Student Grouping Study | EEF and UCL * Caiti’s Substack summary of the EEF and UCL Report - attainment grouping & the eef/ucl report: choose your casualty Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and the lands of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
14 May

Episode #8 The Autonomy Debate

In this episode, Greg and Caiti discuss recent research into mobile phone bans in schools, exploring whether they’re actually effective and why schools may choose to implement them in the first place. They also unpack debates around teacher autonomy, low-variance teaching and standardised curriculum resources, questioning whether shared approaches are truly a threat to professionalism or a way to improve consistency and reduce workload. Finally, they explore critical thinking in the Australian Curriculum and the relationship between knowledge, thinking and evidence-informed practice. Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us? Get in touch Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * Five Things to Know About Largest Cellphone Ban Study – The 74 * “Are you on slide 8 yet?” | National Education Union * Australian teachers let down by flawed critical thinking capability: instructional coach — EducationHQ * Greg Ashman’s journey to misrepresenting Hattie case - The Wreckage * Greg’s response to the above article from ‘The Wreckage’ Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com
30 Apr

Episode #7 The Unified Bodymind

In a funny episode complete with robotic pigeons and disturbing AI-generated images (see below), Greg and Caiti look at some of the more popular conversations in the education world right now. Starting off with a discussion around gamification and broader technology use in the classroom, they consider the role of schools and the impacts of trying to appeal to student interests in a contrived way in the classroom. They then switch to a research theme for the remainder of the episode, starting off with a discussion about Professor John Hattie’s research, in light of recent allegations about plagiarism in his work. The conversation centres on the research methodology used and flaws within this. Finally, they draw on a presentation that contrasts the ‘Science of Learning’ with the ‘sciences of learning’: what they mean for ‘fun’ in the classroom, teacher professional judgment and education research in general. Have something you want us to discuss in a future episode? Or want to find us? Get in touch Greg Ashman Greg is a school leader at Ballarat Clarendon College and holds a PhD in instructional design from UNSW. Substack – Filling the Pail LinkedIn – Greg Ashman X/Twitter – @greg_ashman If you’re interested in working with Greg at Ballarat Clarendon College, please see here for open roles and expressions of interest. Caiti Wade Caiti is a leader of pedagogy at a boys’ secondary school in Brisbane and is doing her EdD in applications of cognitive load theory to secondary mathematics. Substack – The Disruptive Educator LinkedIn – Caiti Wade X/Twitter – @caiti_wade Episode resources * You Can’t Game Your Way to a Real Education - The New York Times * Professor John Hattie from the University of Melbourne School of Education probed over plagiarism | Herald Sun * ‘Defending John Hattie’ - Greg’s Substack, Filling the Pail * Balancing structured instruction with creative freedom: Navigating the path to effective and joyful learning - University of Melbourne Presentation * ‘most likely. most students. most of time’ - Caiti’s Substack, The Disruptive Educator * Greg’s Tweet about the ‘bodymind’: Acknowledgement of country We would like to acknowledge The Traditional Custodians of the lands on which we record this podcast, the lands of the Wadawurrung People, and those of the Jagera and Turrbal Peoples, and pay our respects to Elders past, present and emerging. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

Hosted by Greg Ashman and Caiti Wade, ‘When Will They Learn?’ explores what’s trending in the world of education. Each episode, Greg and Caiti engage with podcasts, articles and opinions shaping education discourse, examining these through a science of learning lens. They discuss not just what’s popular, but what’s supported by the evidence. whenwilltheylearn.substack.com

Creator

Hosted by Greg Ashman and Caiti Wade
Years Active

2026
Episodes

14
Rating

Clean
Copyright

© Caiti Wade & Greg Ashman
Show Website

When Will They Learn?