Dance Chat

TheTryGirl

Step into the raw, unfiltered world of dance through conversations with those who breathe life into movement. From ballet virtuosos and street dance pioneers to visionary choreographers, educators, and behind-the-scenes architects—we amplify the voices of dreamers who redefine stages with their bodies, creativity, and passion. Hear firsthand how a street-corner freestyler conquered global arenas, how a choreographer translates heartbreak into motion, or how lighting designers paint stories with shadows. We go beyond the spotlight to dissect dance’s multifaceted ecosystem: What drives a teacher to ignite the next generation’s spark? How do producers turn studio drafts into spectacles? Can a dancer reinvent themselves after injury or burnout? No genre is off-limits—witness the precision of ballet, the rebellion of hip-hop, and the introspection of contemporary dance. "Dance Chat" pulls back the curtain on sweat-soaked rehearsals, career crossroads, and the quiet revolutions shaping the industry. Plug in your earphones and join us as we: Dissect the anatomy of dance Feel the pulse of obsession thetrygirl.substack.com

  1. When Gymnasts Enter the World of Dance: Body, Limits, and state of “Flow”

    22 MAR

    When Gymnasts Enter the World of Dance: Body, Limits, and state of “Flow”

    A girl “Banned” from Competition by Her Parents, Secretly Trained Her Way to the National Team At three in the morning, Qilin crawled out of bed and tiptoed down to the basement. That was during her second year of middle school in Canada. By day, she was an ordinary international student, sitting in classrooms taking academic courses; by night, she was a rhythmic gymnast practicing in secret—something her parents knew nothing about. Her father had made it clear to her coach: “Don’t let her train competitively.” In her parents’ eyes, sending their child abroad was the proper path; sports were, at most, for fitness. But Qilin had her own mind. From a young age, she knew her body was made for something extreme. Eventually, the truth came out because of a competition entry fee. Her mother saw the event title on the registration form and sensed something was off. “What kind of competition is this?” Qilin had no choice but to confess. But by then, she couldn’t stop—her coach had discovered her talent, and she had found her place in the sport. This was just the beginning Understanding body movement from physics Qilin first realized her body was “different” when she was 10. She was learning Chinese folk dance recreationally. The first time her teacher tried to press her back into a stretch, the teacher was startled: “I’ve never stretched you before—why are you this flexible?” Qilin herself couldn’t explain it. Later, when she joined rhythmic gymnastics, she noticed that movements others had to drill repeatedly seemed almost instinctive to her. Take a wave, for example. The dance teacher would spend ages explaining, yet her classmates couldn’t find the feeling of “rolling the spine down vertebra by vertebra.” Qilin didn’t understand what was so difficult about it. “It’s just the spine—starting from the thoracic vertebrae, one segment at a time…” She couldn’t quite articulate it, but her body simply knew. There’s nothing mystical about it. Later, studying sports anatomy, she learned the term: neuromuscular recruitment—the efficiency of communication between brain and muscle. Some people are simply better wired to “do exactly what they intend,” and her ability happened to align perfectly with rhythmic gymnastics. Rhythmic gymnastics training is brutal. Each session lasts four hours, with one or two sessions a day. It starts with fifteen minutes of jumping rope, followed by an hour of floor basics: stretching the top of the foot, flexing and extending the foot, knee awareness, hip alignment, core and back strength, spinal mobility, leg lifts, and backbends. Endurance holds—five minutes per leg, front, side, back, no exceptions. Then comes the apparatus work: putting routines together and drilling for success rates—if a sequence has three toss-and-catch elements, you need to land eight out of ten before moving on. This system shows no mercy. It asks only one question: What else can your body do? Qilin’s body answered. In her second month of training, she won her first competition. A year later, she won the Chinese Students Rhythmic Gymnastics Championship. She made district teams in basketball, showed promise in track, but only rhythmic gymnastics made sense. She knew how to improve, how to execute each movement, how her body should move through space. “My body was just made for rhythmic gymnastics,” she says. The Child “Abandoned” by Her Coach But a lingering shadow has always cast over Qilin’s athletic career: she was a “child abandoned by her coach.” Her first coach had been told by her father not to train her competitively, so she was largely ignored. Later, a Ukrainian coach worked with her for six months before leaving due to visa issues. In Canada, her coach recommended her to a high-level training group comparable to national camps—but her father only allowed her to train four days a week, so the coach didn’t invest much in her. “I was a people pleaser as a kid. I just thought my coaches didn’t like me,” she says. Another coach wanted to take her on, but four months later, the pandemic hit. After returning to China, she went back to her first coach, who later embezzled five or ten million yuan and fled. Not only did he refuse to coach her, but he also barred her from entering domestic elite competitions—because he had a beef with the system, and as his student, she couldn’t even get her physical fitness or insurance forms. “I was pretty depressed during that time,” she said. In her junior year of high school, she didn’t train at all with a team—she practiced alone in her basement. Strangely, her technical skills improved significantly that year. Later, she returned to the national rhythmic gymnastics team and rejoined the national-level individual rhythmic gymnastics program—due to citizenship issues, she couldn’t join the official national team in Canada. Then came long COVID. When the body betrays you The aftereffects of long COVID showed up as vestibular dysfunction and autonomic nervous system issues. Simply put, she would get dizzy mid-training, her vision drifting. Walking too fast made her faint; standing on a bus without a seat could make her collapse. At her worst, her exercise tolerance was measured at 5.0, where normal is 7 to 9, borderline disability is 4 to 5, and athletes are usually 18 to 22. “I couldn’t move at all,” she says. Once, during a fire alarm at school, she walked out — but couldn’t walk back. Her heart rate spiked; she had to sit down every few steps, wait for it to settle, then stand up, take two more steps, and sit down again. During that time, she began to ask: if my body can’t move anymore, who am I? Until then, her entire sense of identity had been built on what her body could do. She did well academically only because she treated school as a task — finish it, and you can train. Sport was her only passion. On the competition floor, there were moments when everything went quiet — when it was just her and the apparatus, in total focus. That state, she says, was the closest she had ever come to happiness. And now, that passion had been taken away. From sports to art, the body remains In December 2024, Qilin officially retired. But in reality, she had started dancing as early as 2023, after stopping competition. She started with commercial street styles, then discovered that heels suited her perfectly — the upright posture, knee awareness, and tight Achilles tendons honed through rhythmic gymnastics made wearing high heels surprisingly comfortable. Later, she tried krump and realized that the pursuit of intensity and power was exactly what she was looking for. Her krump teacher told her: it’s okay if you can’t hear the music — listen to your body’s dynamics. If you can’t see clearly, that blur can inform new movement. She found that when she improvises, the first thing she does is make her vision unclear — so she can “listen” to her body, quiet her mind, and her thoughts stop racing in all directions. “I don’t want to see things clearly,” she says. “That way, I feel more grounded.” This is actually a clash between two bodily logics. In rhythmic gymnastics, the body exists to execute difficult moves, meet standards, and earn points. Every movement has a clear objective: leg control must be 180°, spins must include an extra rotation, and tosses and catches must be successful. But in dance, the body exists to express. You don’t have to meet a fixed standard; what you must do is let your body speak. Qilin moves back and forth between these two logics. In heels, her gymnastics foundation gives her stability, straight knees, and clean lines. In Krump, she pursues raw power. “I’m still chasing the extreme,” she says. “Just in a different form.” No obsession, no mastery Looking back on her movement history, Qilin says that if she could give her younger self one piece of advice, she would say: manage your weight carefully during puberty, and don’t take school too seriously. “My entire movement journey has been for this one passion,” she says. School was merely an obligation — an inescapable duty for East Asian kids. To fulfill this duty, she slept five or six hours a day, woke up at 4 a.m. to do homework, trained during the day, and returned to the dorm at 11 p.m. Her severe long-COVID symptoms later on were likely related to this. But she has no regrets. Every decision was one she made herself — except, perhaps, for taking her studies too seriously. “Actually, if I’d been able to take things a bit less seriously back then, if I’d been a bit more self-centered — just focusing on what I wanted and cutting away those so-called obligations — it might have been better for my body.” But she also knows that, given who she was, she wouldn’t have listened anyway. People pleaser. Competitive. Obsessed with extremity. These traits are built into her body, just like her flexibility and strength—both gift and curse. Now, the life she wants is simple: teach heels classes, go out drinking after, sleep, choreograph, teach again. “I just want to live like an eighteen- or nineteen-year-old,” she says. “I didn’t get to have fun when I was younger.” What you suppress will eventually return. As for the future, she isn’t quite sure. She might join a contemporary dance company, or she might continue with fine arts — much of her work involves the body: installations, video, and performance. “Movement is the only thing that brings me peace,” she says. She has wondered: what if one day her body no longer allows her to dance? But she also doesn’t think that will really happen. “In dance, even someone with very limited physical ability can create something equally valuable,” she says. “Dance isn’t about testing the limits of the human body — it’s about expressing what your body wants to say.” The

    24 min
  2. She Started Dancing at 17 — and Screens Los Angeles Dance Films to the World

    5 MAR

    She Started Dancing at 17 — and Screens Los Angeles Dance Films to the World

    “I knew dance is my destiny when I first saw it” In most people’s imagination, a successful choreographer begins at three years old in a studio, enters a conservatory as a teenager, and stands center stage by twenty. Kitty McNamee’s story runs almost in reverse. She didn’t start dancing until she was seventeen. She grew up in a small town in Ohio. She didn’t have formal training as a child. And yet today, she is a choreographer, a director, and the founder of LA Pops Up — a curator who brings original dance films by Los Angeles artists to film festivals around the world. She laughs when she says it: “I don’t know why. But the moment I saw a ballet show, I just knew — that was what I was meant to do.” “My Body Couldn’t Do What I Saw in My Head — So I Started Directing Others” Many people enter dance because of physical talent. Kitty didn’t. “My body couldn’t do what I saw in my mind,” she says, completely matter-of-fact. Precisely because her body couldn’t fully execute the visuals in her imagination, she chose another path — she placed them on other bodies. She has the instinct of a director. In her head, she sees ensemble movement unfold like a film: blocking, rhythm, pacing — sometimes like a game screen switching back and forth. It’s a rare trajectory. Not from “I dance very well.” But from— “I imagine clearly and vividly.” She casts like a filmmaker, too. She doesn’t ask dancers to dance like her. She studies what is unique about each person, then builds work that is about them — more alive, less imitative. Some of those once “quirky,” “unusual,” “hard-to-place” young dancers went on to choreograph Super Bowl commercials. Some won Emmy Awards. “If I made them move like me, it would be boring, and sad” she says. The strongest creators don’t replicate themselves. They unlock other people. Dance Is Transient, She Turned to Film “Dance onstage vanishes. After the curtain call, it’s gone.” She worked in theater, created for dance companies, took on television and film-related projects. But one day she confronted the most brutal truth about live performance: it is fleeting. Once it ends, it dissolves. Even when it’s recorded, it’s not the same thing. So she began making her own short films and documentaries — using the camera to hold onto movement. Then she noticed something else. Around her, extraordinary artists were creating dance films. Emmy winners. Big-name collaborators. They would screen their films at festivals — and then the works would sit on a shelf, unseen. She realized: “These pieces are beautiful. Why isn’t anyone seeing them?” That’s how LA Pops Up was born. “I wanted to bring Los Angeles dance films to the world.” Why Are Dancers So Often Invisible? We can name pop stars. We can name film directors. But how many people know: * Who choreographed Bad Bunny’s Super Bowl performance? * Who designed the movement in a Harry Styles music video? * Who coached the physical language of actors in a film? “Even at the top of the industry, many choreographers and dance creators remain unknown to the public,” Kitty says. A dancer’s career is short. Income is unstable. Visibility is low. How do you survive? Her answer is clear: Diversify. Teach. Direct. Choreograph. Create your own films. Keep making your own work. “Don’t be a single vertical stick that falls with one push. Grow branches. Be versatile.” What Is a Dance Film, Really? Must it have no dialogue? Must it be large-scale choreography? Must the movement look technically difficult? She tells a story. A girl stands in a clown costume. The camera slowly pulls back. Almost no movement. “That’s a dance film too,” Kitty says. Her criteria are simple: * A strong, original voice. * Clear music rights so it can be screened widely. * As long as it centers around movement and the body, and involves a choreographer (as director or choreographer). She also emphasizes: LA Pops Up does not obsess over premieres or “brand new” work. She wanted to give already-screened, forgotten works a second life. Film Doesn’t Have to Be Expensive When asked whether dance films are costly to make, Kitty’s answer is grounded — and encouraging: They can be affordable. She’s seen filmmakers shoot on an iPhone and still create something breathtaking through editing and music. Budgets may range from $4,000 to $40,000 — but more money does not automatically mean better art. Dancers, she believes, are experts at making the impossible possible. When resources are scarce, imagination sharpens. When conditions are tight, creativity pushes harder. For the Late Starters: Stop Accepting “No” as Your Fate “If you could speak to your younger self, what would you say?” Kitty says she would stop listening to the voices that tried to limit her: “You started too late. You won’t have a career.” “You’re not a director. You can’t make documentaries.” She admits she once took those words to heart — enough to hold herself back from bigger possibilities. But to every late starter, she says: You don’t need to start earlier than anyone else. You only need to believe in yourself. No one is born knowing how. Passion is the best teacher. She says she’s had a lot of “crazy ideas.” Most of them didn’t work. LA Pops Up did — because she found someone willing to take a leap of faith, “Let’s try.” Sometimes, that’s just how life works. You toss a stone. It might sink. Or it might create ripples. Support & Getting Involved * Official Website * LA Pops Up — lapopsup.com * Dance Camera West — dancecamerawest.org * Instagram * @hystericaprods * @kittymcnamee * Dance Film Submission: Submit via official website / Submit via email * kitty@hystericaprods.com * kelly@dancecamerawest.org This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thetrygirl.substack.com

    1hr 15min
  3. After She Left, He Decided to Keep the Dance Alive

    26 JAN

    After She Left, He Decided to Keep the Dance Alive

    Five years after Naini’s passing, eight dancers still train for over four hours every day. Lights turn on and off, music plays on repeat. The tempo is fast, unrelenting. Sweat streams down spines, legs begin to shake, but the movement cannot stop — 8 counts, then another 8 counts. Executive Director Andy Chiang stands in the corner, eyes fixed on every detail. It’s hard to imagine that this figure behind the dance company is an MIT-graduated computer engineer. “We’re in a happy business,” Andy says. A Cultural Ambassador from Taiwan to Broadway The story begins in the 1970s. Nai-Ni Chen was already a star in Taiwan’s dance world, a principal dancer with Cloud Gate Dance Theatre, performed across 22 countries and even graced Broadway stages in the 1980s — an era when Asian performers had virtually no roles in America. When her company came to Boston for a tour, Andy, then studying at MIT, saw her performance. Andy had practiced martial arts since childhood and had a natural sensitivity to body language. The two bonded over their shared love of movement. The turning point came in 1988. Nai-Ni’s performance at a New York theater received a rave review from The New York Times — in those days, it was practically a golden ticket. The phone started ringing constantly, invitations poured in, and for the first time, Nai-Ni realized: perhaps she could gather these dancers together and build something lasting. Thus, Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company was born, starting with just five people, rehearsing in Fort Lee, New Jersey, performing mostly at community events and small theaters. Gradually, the company found its footing. Andy has been the company’s Executive Director from the very beginning, a role he’s held for forty years. Dance That “Belongs to Neither Side” Nai-Ni’s work was remarkably unique. Her dance was neither purely Chinese dance, nor Western contemporary dance, nor ballet. Her central question was: What can a body steeped in Chinese culture create when living in America? “She carried Chinese culture within her—that was her root,” Andy says. “But she lived in America, and her questions belonged to the present.” In her works, the postures of Chinese dance, the structure of modern dance, and the rhythms of street dance coexist. Not as a collage, but through relentless experiments and innovation. In a recent performance, audiences witnessed a startling piece: traditional lion dance fused with hip-hop. The lion head and dancers moved together to hip-hop beats, executing basic steps, while the tail dancer traversed the stage at high speed. Audiences were initially stunned, then realized: these two seemingly distant physical languages could actually converse. “That idea came from me,” Andy laughs. “I just asked a question: What would it look like if a lion danced hip-hop?” This is precisely the direction Nai-Ni Chen Dance Company has explored for over thirty years—cultural collision and fusion. Nai-Ni believed that combining Chinese and American contemporary culture could create new art forms. Every piece embodied this philosophy, creating an inclusive new language rooted in cultural exchange. To this end, the company collaborated with hip-hop legend Rokafella, a pivotal figure in hip-hop history who has even served as an Olympic judge. “We’ve done battles between Chinese dance and street dance,” Andy says. “We used kuaiban for rhythm, just like their rap.” The company’s diversity is also reflected in its members. Among the eight full-time dancers are Black, white, and Chinese performers. When a Black dancer performs Mongolian dance, the cross-cultural beauty is deeply moving. “If their culture can accept us Chinese people, why can’t we accept them?” Andy asks. “Culture is alive,” Andy emphasizes repeatedly. “If it stops growing, it dies.” The Difficult Life of New York Dancers Dancers are called “the most difficult profession in the arts.” They must maintain peak physical condition daily, constantly taking classes, rehearsing, and auditioning, yet earning meager wages. Some dancers share a single room among four people, eating nothing but pasta. “When I see these dancers, I’m truly moved,” Andy says. “They’re giving everything to dance for you, and they have no money. You feel like you must do something for them.” Inspired by the artists’ purity of purpose, Andy committed himself fully to supporting the company. “I always said I devoted 100% of my time to Nai-Ni—whatever she needed, I found a way to make it happen.” The company rehearses over four hours daily, their daily expenses would easily exceed thousands of dollars. “These dancers have trained since childhood, they’re dance majors,” Andy explains. “Nai-Ni herself had incredibly strong Peking Opera martial arts training, and her ballet and modern dance were also exceptional. Her standards for dancers were very high.” Maintaining such a professional company on performance revenue alone is impossible. The company holds a fundraising gala every February and accepts donations. “I hope young friends working on Wall Street can help us,” Andy says. “Every dancer needs support.” After She Left In 2021, Nai-Ni Chen passed away in an accident. For the company, it was an almost fatal rupture. She was the creator, the spiritual core, the source of all works. But the dancing didn’t stop. “Her choreography is incredibly valuable,” he says. “I don’t want these works to be locked away. They should be inspirations, and people can build on top of it.” The company continues performing her works while also inviting new choreographers and artists to join, attempting new cross-cultural experiments. The works are evolving, but the core remains unchanged—culture must enter the present, not be enshrined. In the upcoming Lunar New Year performances, the company will tour Queens, the Bronx, and New Jersey. The program features traditional pipa master Tang Liangxing, guzheng virtuoso Yang Yi, and new works fusing multiple styles. And Andy speaks out more often now. Before, he devoted all his time to Nai-Ni; now, he feels responsible for letting more people know what she was doing and why. The Artist Behind the Artist When asked about being a “shadow artist,” Andy laughs. He handles administration, finds resources, manages budgets, and fundraises. Though never center stage, he’s not entirely removed from creation. After forty years, he’s seen countless dances and developed his own aesthetic sense. He knows when to speak up and when to step back. “Nai-Ni often said she choreographed to show people hope, not trauma,” Andy says. “Dance should give people something positive. Over these years, I’ve witnessed the growth of dancers and Nai-Ni’s evolution as a choreographer. It’s been a very enriching experience for me.” He has never stopped learning. In his youth, he studied with Nai-Ni’s teachers, spent two years at the Martha Graham School, and now practices tai chi. “All dance is about awareness, understanding how qi and muscles move in the body,” he says. To Andy, working with computers and working with dance aren’t contradictory. “I’m more organized in administration,” he says, “but more importantly, when people from different fields interact, sparks fly.” This cross-disciplinary thinking enabled him to conceive ideas like “lion dancing hip-hop.” “If Nai-Ni were here today and I talked to her about AI, we might discuss what true innovation really means,” Andy says. “Our approach to cultural fusion is something AI probably can’t do, because it requires genuine cross-cultural collision.” Dance is no longer just work for him—it’s part of his life. He doesn’t know what his life would look like if he hadn’t taken this path all those years ago. That parallel world is too distant now. For Every Dancer For those wanting to learn dance, Andy’s advice is simple: “Find what makes you happy.” He doesn’t believe in excessive comparison. “Everyone has their own characteristics. You don’t need to think about others dancing better than you. Even professional dancers don’t think that way. What matters is finding your freedom and means of expression in your body and in music.” To Andy, culture only has vitality when it’s alive. “If something is dead, that culture has no development, no vitality. We immigrants came to this country to bring it vitality. We have a lot to offer. Our culture is incredibly valuable.” “Why do we do this in this world?” he asks and answers himself. “To give the world richer experiences.” And that is the meaning of art. 🔗 Follow * instagram @nainichendancecompany * Upcoming performances * Lunar New Year gala This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thetrygirl.substack.com

    15 min
  4. “The best Artist is the Most Human”

    3 JAN

    “The best Artist is the Most Human”

    The first time Eskillz realized that the body could be used did not happen in a dance studio, but in a dojo. At twelve, his father sent him to study karate. It wasn’t a decision about dance, but one about self-defense. Yet through the repeated cycles of punches, turns, and closures, he felt something awaken for the first time: the body could be activated, sculpted, and understood. In that moment, something opened. Before that, he was closer to a quiet art student. He drew, illustrated, immersed himself in comics, imagining one day creating his own graphic novels. Dance was never part of the plan— despite the fact that almost everyone in his family danced. Years later, after traveling the world to dance, teach, and create moving images — as a Jersey Club dancer, movement artist, director — he still looks back at that experience as the beginning. “You can draw with your body,” he says. The kid who danced in secret Born in New Jersey, Eskillz grew up in a family where everyone danced. On his father’s Caribbean side: club culture, house, disco, breaking. On his mother’s side: jazz, swing, roller-skating culture. Dance didn’t need to be introduced—it existed like air. And yet, he was the child who danced in secret. In his room, he watched popping and animation videos on YouTube, practicing Jersey Club rhythms, stops, and accents. It was a private joy—one that didn’t need validation or definition. Until one day, during a school lunch break, someone noticed. “Skills can dance.” From that moment on, he slowly became the kid who dances. “I realized I didn’t just like dancing,” he says. “What I loved was body language itself.” Jersey Club: Not a Style, but a Way of Being In Eskillz’s narrative, Jersey Club is rarely framed as a “dance style.” First, it is a setting—parties, underground spaces, clubs. Second, it is music—rooted in Baltimore Club, brought back to New Jersey by local DJs, evolving into what became known as Brick City music. Only then did it gradually become a physical language. “In the beginning, it wasn’t freestyle,” he explains. “It was collective — call-and-response.” The DJ would shout commands over the music, like an advanced version of Cha Cha Slide: two steps left, two steps right, a named move, everyone doing it together. Dance didn’t ask who you were — it only asked that you be present. “Jersey Club was always for everyone.” Later, personal expression began to slip into the spaces between those shared movements, and freestyle slowly emerged. But even today, in Eskillz’s eyes, Jersey Club remains less a system to be ranked and more a way of existing in the club. He Doesn’t Really Believe in the Borders Between Styles On paper, Eskillz’s journey doesn’t look like a typical street-dance trajectory. He has trained in contemporary dance, explored ballet, tap dance, and worked in theater and stage projects. When he speaks about the body, he references anatomy, foot placement, center of gravity, weight distribution. “These aren’t exclusive to any one style,” he says. “We’re talking about the same thing—just using different vocabulary.” To him, all dancers operate within a shared physical logic: balance, rhythm, awareness, gravity. They are all asking the same question — how does the body exist in space? This perspective owes much to his background in visual art. “I watch dance the way I look at a painting.” He Films Dance, but not “Dance Video” It’s hard to label Eskillz’s work simply as dance videos. In his films, dance is rarely the protagonist. Composition, space, narrative, and silence often matter more than the movement itself. The body feels placed inside a painting that happens to move. “That’s because I started as a visual artist,” he says. He first sees the image in his mind — then sketches it, storyboards it, and only later searches for the right space and body. The camera is not a recording device; it is a canvas. He is drawn to surrealism — not for spectacle, but for moments that feel as though they could only exist if you had witnessed them yourself. “I want that feeling where you’ve clearly seen it,” he says, “but it still feels impossible.” He isn’t eager for the audience to analyze the steps. He wants them to be trapped inside the moment. Here, dance is no longer a display of technique, but an event that is unfolding. How to define a “Dancer”? When asked how he defines a dancer, Eskillz pauses for a long time. “Some of the best dancers are non-dancers.” For him, being a dancer has little to do with making a living from it. It has everything to do with whether you remain in conversation with the art. “If one day you can no longer dance,” he says, “but you are still moved by dance — then you are a dancer.” Because real dance is not movement, but perception: how you feel, how you respond, how you exist in the world. Some professionals at the top of the industry felt profoundly empty, and untrained individuals might possess a deep, intuitive understanding of dance. Dancer’s identity, to him, is not decided by income, labels, or credentials — but by relationship. “If you truly love dance,” he says, “you would want to see it on more people. You love it enough that it’s no longer just about yourself.” Space, Responsibility, and Kindness He has little interest in ranking dancers. Instead, he prefers to speak of maturity. Dance, to him, is not a hierarchy, but an expanding territory — each person has a different range of comfort zone. No one is above another. What concerns him are environments where fear is created through technique, reputation, or power. “If you’re more experienced in dance,” he says, “you’re responsible for making the space safe for exploration.” Not by lowering standards — but through understanding. “Everyone’s bag can be deeper.” He has seen dancers at the peak of technique who were deeply miserable, and others with nothing who were utterly free in the music. Once, at a house festival, he was stunned by the groove of a homeless drug-addict — and for the first time, he felt envy for that kind of freedom. “That’s when I realized,” he says, “that I might have been looking at dance wrong.” The Best Artist Is the Most Human In the latter part of the conversation, the focus drifts away from technique and into something more personal, deeper. Eskillz keeps returning to one word: human. In a world saturated with algorithms, metrics, and perfected images, dance matters not because it is impressive — but because it is real. “AI will never be depressed, never lost, never doubt whether it can keep creating.” “The best dancers,” he says, “are the most human.” It took him a long time to finally say he was a good dancer — because he had to stop beating himself up for imperfection. Those imperfections, he realized, were the very essence of art. “Learning to be kind to yourself, is an art form in itself.” he says. Returning Dance to Life Eskillz offers no grand manifesto, but repeats only one thing: dance was always meant to be free. Not for résumés. Not for rankings. Not for algorithms. “Did you like the song? Did you nod your head? Did your foot move? Congratulations, you danced today.” In a world increasingly obsessed with outcomes, efficiency, and perfection, his stance feels almost defiant. And precisely because of that, it feels clear. He is not teaching people how to dance. He is reminding them of something simpler: You already know how to move. Everyone can dance. 🔗 Follow * Eskillz * ins: @eskilllz * Class Schedule * All Levels JerZ @MODEGA Thursday 8pm * DM for private sessions This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thetrygirl.substack.com

    1hr 30min
  5. Moving Through Air, Moving Through Life

    19/12/2025

    Moving Through Air, Moving Through Life

    When winter light falls across her shoulders in New York, Julie Ludwick has already been dancing for sixty years. Sixty years — what does that mean? It means a person has given her entire body to time, her entire spirit to the stage. It means choosing to trust her weight to a steel bar, a gently swaying low-flying trapeze, or a ladder hung in the air — and choosing to do so again and again for decades. At Fly-by-Night, the nonprofit aerial dance company she founded in 1999, Julie is not just a “director.” She is still, first and foremost, a dancer who has not come down to earth — someone who continues to fight the world’s heaviness with her own weightlessness. I. A Child Who Grew Out of Alaska’s Darkness Julie grew up in Alaska: a place of long rains, longer nights, and deep isolation. When she was six, a classically trained ballet teacher happened to move into their small town. Ballet became a narrow beam of light cutting through the pervasive dark. Years later her sister would tell her: “You always stood at the front of the barre, like you already knew where you were going.” At twelve, her older brother died by suicide — a rupture no one talked about. In that era, in that place, grief was something swallowed, not spoken. “Dance saved me,” she says. It became the only space where her sadness could be worked through physically, where discipline and sweat could temporarily silence fear. II. Her First Flight In college she shifted toward modern dance and eventually found her way to a pivotal moment: performing in an aerial work by mentor Robert Davidson. The first time she floated off the floor, she understood something immediate and irreversible: Dance didn’t have to happen only on the ground. And she didn’t have to forever obey gravity. “It felt like climbing trees as a kid,” she says — except this time she could stay in the air. She moved to New York, juggling teaching jobs, late-night rehearsals, grant proposals, and endless freelance gigs — anything to keep flying. Fly-by-Night became an official nonprofit in 1999, built with exhaustion and faith. III. Between Flight and the Ground, She Is Always Balancing From the outside, aerial dance looks effortless: bodies floating, twirling, defying physics. Behind the scenes, Julie spends far more time with spreadsheets than spotlights. Insurance forms, grant applications, rehearsal contracts, theater negotiations — the invisible labor that makes one hour of performance possible. “To keep dancers safe, I have to pay for liability insurance, workers’ comp, high-ceiling rehearsal spaces, everything,” she says. “And to make one dance, I might need to write dozens of documents.” She advises her students: Artists don’t retire. But in private she admits: “I’m always exhausted.” She does not romanticize the artist’s life — not because she is cynical, but because she knows: what sustains her is not comfort, but the stories that are worth being told. IV. Her Works Are Born from the Fractures of Her Life Julie’s choreography often rises from grief. On the flight home after her father died, she saw an entire dance unfold in her mind, scene by scene, like clouds arranging themselves into meaning. She returned to New York and immediately began rehearsals. During the pandemic, her sister fell ill and Julie’s family sent her “joys” — little things that made them happy. After her sister passed, Julie continued to find joy but no longer knew where to send it. So she sent it to the stage. “Dance makes these experience meaningful,” she says — not because it erases pain, but because it transforms it. V. In Her Classroom, Dancers Return to Their Bodies — and to Themselves Julie often tells her students: “Listen to the body,” “Let the image move you.” Her teaching blends somatic awareness, improvisation, and Eastern philosophy. She is not interested in producing copies of herself but in helping each dancer uncover movement that belongs only to them. “Technique matters,” she says, “but the movement has to grow out of you.” She loves watching a student find something new in the air — like a stone cracking open to reveal light. VI. On Continuity and Hardship: The System Has Never Favored Artists Julie speaks candidly about the systemic challenges facing dancers: underfunding, costly rentals, little pay, shrinking grants, and the near impossibility of financial stability. “It’s a risky life,” she says. “But I don’t know what else I’d do.” She understands clearly: Being an artist is not freedom — it is perpetual balancing, a kind of lifelong improvisation. But “If you choose it, it will give you what you most need in your life.” VII. The Future: Flying Until the Body Says No Today, her company faces tightening resources. She continues to write grants, run small fundraisers, nurture her dancers, and imagine the next work — even as the arts landscape grows more uncertain. She doesn’t know whether the future of dance in New York will improve. She doesn’t know whether the city will become too expensive for dreams that require so much space — literal and figurative. But she knows one thing: as long as her body can fly, she will fly. Support Fly-By-Night ins @flybynightdance Holiday Auction: https://www.32auctions.com/HolidayAuctionFBN Donate: https://flybynightdance.org/donate/ Audition: https://flybynightdance.org/participate/classes/ collab & contact: julie@flybynightdance.org This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thetrygirl.substack.com

    1hr 32min
  6. Restarting dance in LA at 25 after a 7-Year Pause

    14/11/2025

    Restarting dance in LA at 25 after a 7-Year Pause

    Four years ago, as the pandemic brought the world to a standstill, Tako was simply looking for a place to restart dance, and created a Xiaohongshu account called “Tako Dancing in Los Angeles” to share her training. Little did she know that she would start from scratch in LA’s professional dance scene and, within four years, evolve from a dancer who was “almost like a beginner” to one selected by choreography masters like Keone and Mari, performing on a film set. “The Heart Was Willing, but the Body Was Weak—Yet It Comes Back with Practice” Tako’s dance journey has unfolded in two distinct chapters. Her first exposure was at just seven years old, placed into a gymnastics team. She recalls crying, being stubborn, refusing to do backbends or leg stretches. Later, in elementary school dance classes, she gradually rediscovered the joy of expressing herself through movement. But dance soon faded into the background amid academic pressures and parental expectations. She studied piano for ten years, and was finally “allowed” to dance. During high school, she went to Japan for a month of intensive training; upon returning, she was noticed by the owner of Shenzhen’s Tianwu IDG and began getting involved in commercial performances and substitute teaching. But even then, dance remained just a hobby, not something she committed to fully. University pulled her further away from dance. High school, college, graduate school—she stepped onto a standard life path. Then the pandemic hit, pressing pause on everything. “People say the prime age for dancers is 18 to 25, and I completely stopped dancing during that period,” she says. “Restarting after seven years, I really was like a beginner again. My heart was willing, but my body was weak.” She quickly realized, however, that with systematic training and fitness, the body’s condition can return. She doesn’t see age as a barrier to dance. She notes that dancers abroad often say “30 is the best age for dancing,” and believes a dancer’s prime might even be around 35. “LA Can Be Snobby, but Dance Is the Best Companion” When Tako first arrived in Los Angeles, she juggled a full-time job, a Master’s in Computer Science at Georgia Tech, and squeezing in time for dance. “I eventually realized I couldn’t manage it all,” she says. Coinciding with the wave of layoffs in the US tech industry, she decisively dropped the Master’s program to invest more time in dance. “For the first year or two, I really had no friends. I just kept my head down and danced,” she recalls. “LA can be very snobby; everyone is like that.” She describes the local dance scene: people check your Instagram, see whose classes you’ve taken, what commercial projects you’ve worked on, which famous choreographers you know—all before deciding whether to befriend you. “I’m not here to network or climb social ladders,” she states. “Dance is my best companion.” It wasn’t until the third year that her efforts began to get noticed. “People start to see you getting picked —‘Wow, so Tako can actually dance!’” she says with a laugh. “Then they start wanting to be friends.” “Masochistic” Training and a “Wolf-Like” Mentor Tako admits she’s a student who “likes a bit of masochism, because that’s how I improve fastest.” Her first major mentor is Kolanie Marks, whom she’s been training under for over four years. “The first time I went to his class, I didn’t even know who he was,” she laughs. “I just stumbled right into the lion’s den.” It was during the pandemic, with only fifteen people in the rehearsal studio. The intensity was extreme; she felt pushed to the brink of collapse almost every class. Yet, it was precisely this training that catalyzed her rapid transformation. “He’s 43, still full of passion, still constantly evolving,” Tako says. “He never lowers the standard or difficulty for his students. Even after dancing with him for so long, I still often find myself in a state of not knowing how to dance.” “He doesn’t just inspire me in dance; he inspires my outlook on life,” Tako reflects. In four years, she has never seen him take a sick day or miss a class. During Christmas week, he was still in the group chat asking, “Does anyone want to train?” Tako says she learned this sense of “showing up” from him. When she started teaching her own Sunday classes, she made it a point never to cancel lightly. “I feel that as long as I’m there, my students can find me.” Recently, she found another teacher, Free Boogie, whom she calls “an even more terrifying instructor.” In a choreography session with only four people, Tako couldn’t get one move right. The teacher made everyone stop and sit in front, watching her until she executed it correctly. “The sweat was just pouring off me; the pressure was immense,” she recalls. “But in that moment, I suddenly understood one of my flaws and exactly how to improve.” Her learning style is high-pressure, disciplined, and intensely self-reflective. She records her practice from each class and sends it to her teachers. Even if they don’t reply, she persists. “I’m not asking for feedback; I’m holding myself accountable, telling myself I’ve completed the assignment.” Sometimes, months later, a teacher might suddenly share her video. In those moments of being “seen,” she feels it’s all worth it. A Healing Journey with Keone and Mari In 2023, Tako was selected by Keone and Mari to participate in a film dance project. She describes it as the most healing experience of her dance career. “They were so laid-back. They taught the routines incredibly fast. Many people couldn’t keep up on the spot, and they’d just say, ‘I trust you guys gonna work on it,’ and sent us home,” she laughs. “During filming, they were even more relaxed. They said, ‘Just stand wherever you want,’ and honestly, no one fought for the center spot.” What moved her most was that Keone remembered every dancer’s name. “Forty people, and he remembered them all,” she says. “He isn’t the type to pressure you, but precisely because of that, you want to deliver your best for him.” During the final scene shot in a church, all the dancers were crying as they performed. “Even though I’m not a Christian, that energy was truly healing,” she shares. “After it ended, I got back to my car and cried for a long time.” Regrets and “No Rush for Fame” Tako once came incredibly close to a dancer’s career peak. This year, she received an offer to be a dancer for BTS member J-Hope’s tour but couldn’t accept due to work visa restrictions. “That was the closest I’ve ever been to the top in my dance career,” she says softly. “But because of my immigration status, I couldn’t grasp it.” She didn’t let it discourage her; instead, it solidified her resolve to keep training. “I know my skills are sufficient; I just need the right visa status,” she explains. “I’m in no rush to become famous. I’m willing to take it slower.” She’s seen too many young dancers get lost in the whirlwind of fame and recognition. “If you become famous before you’re ready, you stop making progress,” she observes. She aspires to be like Keone and Mari, letting time and work speak for themselves. “Being hot for two or three years isn’t my goal. I want what they have—staying relevant and respected for years.” Advice to Her Younger Self: Know Yourself First, Then Dance At the end of our conversation, when asked what advice she would give her younger self just starting out with dance, Tako pondered for a moment. “Know yourself first, then dance,” she says. “But you can do both simultaneously. The most important thing isn’t just to dance mechanically, but to think, to understand the world.” She believes the maturity of one’s dance stems from the maturity of the person. “The more you experience in life, the more flavor comes through in your movement,” she reflects. “Dance isn’t just steps; it’s the expression of your life.” Tako still trains daily in Los Angeles. “Dance itself is already a companion,” she says. 🔗 Follow * ins@tako_sauce8 * RedNote@洛杉矶跳舞的TAKO This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thetrygirl.substack.com

    11 min
  7. Finding the Freest Breath Between Dance and Self

    12/10/2025

    Finding the Freest Breath Between Dance and Self

    1. The Spider Mama's Name Lili's Instagram is called Black Spider Mama. The name sounds absurd yet carries a hint of mystery. She explains with a laugh: "I just wanted to shed those pressures and expectations, to have the most casual, most random, most mischievous name possible." She says spiders are precise hunters and also wild, resilient creatures — "Others may destroy its web, but it always weaves it back together." In her eyes, this name is like her spirit animal, a way of resisting fragility and embracing fierce femininity. 2. Before Dancing: The Two Years of Losing Dance Lili has been dancing since kindergarten. Back then, she always shone on stage—Chinese dance, Latin, and then street dance, each step felt destined. But fate took a turn when she was fourteen. She contracted myocarditis, and doctors forbade her from dancing for two years. “My body was changing, I was gaining weight, and people looked at me differently,” she recalls. "That was the first time I truly realized what dance meant to me—only through loss do you understand what it is." After recovery, she attended university in the State. She initially studied world literature, then switched to psychology, and finally transferred to dance. She studied ballet and modern dance, but at the most "academic" moment, she grew skeptical of the so-called "system": "They were being abstract for abstraction's sake, deliberately obscure to make others feel they couldn't understand." She realized she wasn't pursuing a certain "style," but rather an authentic feeling—that kind of real vibration, as genuine as sunset or breathing. 3. Learning to Heal in Street Dance's Family In Ohio, she found her first real street-dance community—a group of Black dancers who called themselves a Family. "Family isn't a crew," she explains. “A crew performs together. A Family lives together.” Cypher, Battle, Session — she learned to express, release, and listen with her body. She says: "That intense, angry, repressed energy eventually becomes a form of healing. Its aggressiveness is actually gentle, it's healing." But in this black-dominated circle, she also experienced the awkwardness and conflict woven from culture, gender, and race. She admits: "Sometimes they wouldn't treat me as an equal. Some teachers would cross boundaries." She experienced sexual harassment—"I just wanted to learn the culture, but they had other intentions." She once fell into confusion and anger because of this, but ultimately chose acceptance and understanding: "You can't control others; you can only learn to protect yourself. When you accept this reality, you regain power." 4. The Cost of "Freedom" When Lili is asked about why she still stays in this chaotic dance world, she answers quickly: "Because it's free." She says the chaos and beauty of the dance world are two sides of the same thing. "Freedom can give birth to what you love and also what you hate. But if you only stay where you won't get hurt, you'll never become strong." New York, to her, is that kind of wild soil — noisy, chaotic, yet full of vitality. She says with a laugh: "This city is like a womb, nurturing all kinds of things. The key is—you need to know what kind of seed you are." 5. African Drums and the Rhythm of Breathing Later, she began learning West African dance. It was a more primal, more intricate world. Twenty drummers playing simultaneously, rhythms overlapping, chaotic, yet precise. "In African dance, no one counts five-six-seven-eight," she says. "You have to listen to the drums to know when to start, when to change movements." She loves that feeling of having "no safety net"—"It forces you to listen, to feel. That sense of rhythm is like life itself." She believes dance has never been about stacking techniques, but about breathing together with the earth, air, and music. "I've found that those who dance best are actually like babies — they're completely immersed in a movement, and that pure energy is divinity." 6. The Moment of "Stopping Dance" "If you start counting beats, thinking about how to dance, at that moment you've actually stopped dancing." She talks about her understanding of "dance"—"It's not you dancing; it's letting your body do what it does. Walking, breathing, sweating, closing your eyes... these are all dance. As long as you're flowing, you're alive." She laughs softly, a laugh containing the serenity of letting go. 7. "I'm Not Trying to Be a Good Dancer" When asked about her view on "becoming a good dancer," Lili shakes her head: "'Good' is a meaningless word. Comparison is meaningless." She explains: "I don't feel I'm better now than before. I'm just different. My dance then was me at that time; my dance now is me now. Both are real, both precious." She even refuses to use "progress" to describe change. "If you say I’m better now, it means you’re denying who I used to be." She pauses, "I don't want to deny any version of myself." 8. Expressing Authentically Lili speaks with the clarity of someone who has lived many lives in one body. When she talks, she often leaps from the physical to the spiritual, from the personal to the universal. But ultimately, all her answers return to one word: truthfulness. "When I stop judging myself, I also stop judging others," she says. "When I find someone interesting, it’s because I am too. All the power is in my own hands." At the end of this podcast episode, she says softly— "If you want to dance, first allow yourself to be a complete person." 🔗 Follow * ins@bigblackspidermama This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thetrygirl.substack.com

    13 min
  8. I Don’t Need a Uniform to Dance

    14/09/2025

    I Don’t Need a Uniform to Dance

    When Justin “Ice-o” walks into a room, there’s no mistaking the calm, self-possessed presence he brings with him. Born and raised in the Bronx, the 37-year-old popper has turned what began as a playful wave with his cousin into a life of artistry, discipline, and unapologetic authenticity. A Wave That Started It All Ice-o formally stepped into the world of popping in 2013. But his bond with dance began much earlier — with a single wave. One day, his cousin casually performed the ripple-like arm movement, and it captivated him. They passed the wave back and forth, like a game, but the seed had been planted. Soon after, Ice-o was scouring YouTube, teaching himself slides and glides. His first battle was a disaster — he had no preparation, no connections, no chance. But at that same event, he saw Monster Pop and Venom Pop perform: two tall, Black dancers, dressed like him, in hoodies and sneakers. “That was the moment,” he recalls. “I realized popping didn’t have to be corny. It could be me.” “I Don’t Dance Just for Social Reasons” For Ice-o, dance is not just movement — it’s research. “A lot of people dance for social reasons — and I do too, sometimes. But more than anything, I dance because I want to be good.” He breaks down patterns in music like equations, experiments with isolations in front of mirrors, and treats his practice like a scientist running tests. “Every time you dance, you’re doing physical research,” he explains. “It’s about min-maxing — refining your preferences and sharpening your skills.” He goes to the gym before shows, before battles. “Taking care of my body makes my dance better,” he says. “Most people turn on their brain for dance only when others are watching. For me, it’s constant.” He records practice sessions, rewatches them, and picks apart every detail. He talks about dance like a scientist: using words like “muscle contraction” and “tension” to describe what others simply call “groove.” Some tell him he “overthinks.” He disagrees. “Analyzing doesn’t kill the love — it makes me love it more.” A Late Start, a Fierce Drive Unlike many dancers who began formal training as kids, Ice-o didn’t commit to popping until the age of 25. Far from a disadvantage, he now sees it as a gift. “I chose dance when I was ready,” he reflects. “Because I was older, I took it hyper seriously. I never took weeks off. I also didn’t wreck my body doing reckless tricks at ten years old.” His obsession bordered on superhuman. He recalls working a 6 a.m. shift, commuting hours into the city, battling until 2 a.m., then sleeping 30 minutes in his car before clocking in again. “People think it’s impossible,” he laughs. “But when you want it bad enough, you find a way.” The Hard Part Wasn’t Dancing For Ice-o, the hardest part of this life hasn’t been dancing — it’s the things around it. “I thought being good would be enough. Work hard, train, you’ll get opportunities. That’s not true. Sometimes without network, without connections, you never even get in the door.” So he forced himself to learn video editing, social media, and the business side of being an artist. “Those skills have nothing to do with dance — but if you want to survive through dance, you need them.” Reconciling With Himself Dance itself has never betrayed him. The frustrations came from politics, unfair battles, and people. But once he returns to a practice room, all of that fades. “I’ve never felt tired of dance. If I’m frustrated, it’s because of people — never because of dance.” Though he radiates composure today, Ice-o admits he struggled with confidence. The turning point came when he stopped relying on others for validation. “I don’t ask if my outfit looks good anymore,” he says. “I decide for myself.” Over time, he’s learned to build confidence internally, not through applause. “When people tell you you’re good, they’re using their own standards. My most important standard has to come from myself.” This mindset even shapes how he navigates relationships and rejection. “If I don’t get an audition, it’s fine. I know who I am. I’ll keep working until the right door opens.” “It All Begins in the Mind” For Ice-o, dance is more than movement. It’s a discipline of life. He treats training like eating or sleeping: necessary, non-negotiable. He has already performed with Passion Fruit Dance Company at Duke University, graced an Off-Broadway stage with his name on the marquee, and won battles against New York’s best. But he’s never complacent. “I always need the next thing,” he admits. In a community full of uniforms and traditions, Ice-o insists on individuality. He doesn’t need costumes to validate his identity. His method is obsessive, solitary, even ascetic at times. But through it, he has built his own system. “Dance isn’t about looking like someone else,” he says. “It’s about looking more like yourself.” Advice to his younger self His message to beginners — and perhaps to his younger self — is simple but profound: “Learn to love training. Make it part of your life the way eating is part of your life. Don’t wait for opportunities to prepare. Be ready, always.” 🔗 Follow * Justin Ice-O * ins: @king.ice.o * RedNote: @king.ice.o * Class Schedule * Popping @Peridance * Floorwork @ MODEGA This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thetrygirl.substack.com

    1hr 13min

About

Step into the raw, unfiltered world of dance through conversations with those who breathe life into movement. From ballet virtuosos and street dance pioneers to visionary choreographers, educators, and behind-the-scenes architects—we amplify the voices of dreamers who redefine stages with their bodies, creativity, and passion. Hear firsthand how a street-corner freestyler conquered global arenas, how a choreographer translates heartbreak into motion, or how lighting designers paint stories with shadows. We go beyond the spotlight to dissect dance’s multifaceted ecosystem: What drives a teacher to ignite the next generation’s spark? How do producers turn studio drafts into spectacles? Can a dancer reinvent themselves after injury or burnout? No genre is off-limits—witness the precision of ballet, the rebellion of hip-hop, and the introspection of contemporary dance. "Dance Chat" pulls back the curtain on sweat-soaked rehearsals, career crossroads, and the quiet revolutions shaping the industry. Plug in your earphones and join us as we: Dissect the anatomy of dance Feel the pulse of obsession thetrygirl.substack.com