Two by Two

The Ken
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The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

  1. 2025 Year-end special

    25/12/2025

    2025 Year-end special

    2025 is done. Forty-eight episodes. Hundreds of guests. Endless banter between Rohin and Praveen. This year, Two by Two covered stories from Bengaluru to the world including business, tech, and everything in between. We didn't just stick to the usual. We asked about people, trends, and the things others weren't paying attention to. We brought on guests who didn't rehearse their answers and tried to make sense of things as they happened. Some episodes turned out to be prescient. Some were messy. Some sparked arguments in our inbox. All of them tried to do what we set out to do: spot hidden connections, ask unasked questions, and figure out what's really going on. This final episode is Rohin looking back at six moments from the year with clips from conversations that stood out. Between each one, he adds context and some behind-the-scenes perspective on why it mattered. Here are the episodes featured: Episode 26: Zomato, Swiggy, and the rise of the 10-minute "dark" caféEpisode 31: Airtel fights spammers. And Truecaller's business modelEpisode 47: Who broke Bengaluru, and how do we fix our cities?Episode 50: In an AI age, India does not have an open source strategyEpisode 51: The invisible whale that capsized India's leaky options boatsEpisode 66: What will bring ambition back from the dead?To everyone who listened, argued with us, sent guest suggestions, or just stuck around, thank you. Next year, we're coming back with everything that makes Two by Two what it is, but bigger and better. Maybe even a few surprises. Stay tuned. There won't be an episode next Thursday. We will return on January 8th, 2026. See you in the new year.________ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. If you have suggestions for guests, episodes or even changes we could make. Please write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    55 min
  2. 60 seconds for every 2025 episode

    18/12/2025

    60 seconds for every 2025 episode

    As we try to wind down this year, Rohin and Praveen do something they’ve never done before: go through every single episode they recorded this year. All 48 of them. In 60 minutes. The rules were simple. Each host had 10 points to build their personal top 10 list for the year. No take-backs, and no pre-discussion. It was a completely live, vibe-based recording where they figured it out as they went. What follows is a rapid-fire sprint through the year. From Amazon India’s struggles to the electric car slowdown, from B-school placements to the rise of quick commerce dark stores, and from Razorpay versus Juspay to the chaos of concert infrastructure in India. They cover it all—the hits, the misses, the prescient calls, and the episodes they wish had gone differently. Along the way, they debate whether episodes were too speculative, too early, or just not memorable enough. By the end, they’re locked in a tight race with only five episodes left and one point each remaining. Because it wouldn't be Two by Two without a matrix, we plotted the results of their debate. Take a look at the graphic to see which episodes they both loved (the green zone) versus their personal favourites. It is chaotic, nostalgic, and a perfect preview of what 2025 looked like through the lens of Two by Two. ______ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. With 48 episodes in the books, this is the perfect starting point for anyone looking to catch up on the defining business stories of 2025. If you liked this sprint through the year, please share it with someone who loves a good deep dive. Have your own "vibe-based" arguments about our list? We’re all ears. Reach out at twobytwo@the-ken.com or leave a comment.

    55 min
  3. The bro-ification of business and tech podcasts

    04/12/2025

    The bro-ification of business and tech podcasts

    "When you called me yesterday, I came up with eight different reasons to say no to you." That's Kosturi Ghosh, partner at Tri-Legal, explaining why she almost didn't show up for this podcast. It's a revealing admission and one that gets to the heart of why business and tech podcasts have such a lopsided gender problem. This week on Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar do something uncomfortable: they examine their own track record. Joined by Kosturi and Swapnika Nag, co-founder and CEO of Periscope, they confront the fact that 95% of guests on Two by Two have been men. A recent USC Annenberg study found that business and tech podcasts have the worst gender split of any genre—92.3% male guests. The conversation explores why this happens, from relying on existing networks and the challenges of cold outreach, to the fact that women are held to different standards when speaking publicly. They also debate whether this is even a problem worth solving, given that the representation issue starts much earlier—in boardrooms, founder circles, and senior leadership positions. The group discusses what can be done differently: building trust over time and being more intentional about guest planning. They also touch on imposter syndrome and why men seem more comfortable winging it.  It's a moment of self-reflection with no easy answers, but plenty of ideas on how to do better in 2026._______ Additional readings: USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative (November 2025) Accidental Feminism: Gender Parity and Selective Mobility among India’s Professional Elite by Swethaa S. Ballakrishnen _______ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    1h 7m
  4. Meesho has come a long way. How much farther will it go?

    27/11/2025

    Meesho has come a long way. How much farther will it go?

    This week on Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar dissect Meesho's strategy with Adarsh Menon (partner at Fireside Ventures and former head of Shopsy at Flipkart) and Ganesh Nagasekar (founder of GSN Invest). Fresh off filing its DRHP, Meesho has gotten here by doing everything differently. Zero commission when competitors charged fees. Optimizing for cost when others raced for speed. Building a logistics arm that slashed delivery costs. All while serving 210 million middle-class customers that Flipkart and Amazon had largely ignored. The conversation explores what actually sets Meesho apart—is it the data science powering three-quarters of its orders, the seller economics that let merchants triple revenue in a year, or something else? And more importantly, where does it go from here? The group debates whether Meesho should push deeper into logistics, experiment with content commerce, or solve the cash-on-delivery mess that's creating hidden costs across the business. Sections: 1. What makes Meesho different?2. The zero commission bet 3. Valmo: Building a logistics business from scratch4. Where it goes next5. Meesho as India's Walmart This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    1h 25m
  5. The numbers behind OpenAI and Perplexity’s deals with Jio and Airtel

    20/11/2025

    The numbers behind OpenAI and Perplexity’s deals with Jio and Airtel

    This week, Two by Two debuts a new format: "Reverse engineering the playbook." Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan attempt to crack the math behind this recent wave of AI-telco partnerships in India. Why are companies like Perplexity, Google, and OpenAI racing to bundle their expensive premium subscriptions with Airtel, Jio, and Phonepe?  To decode the economics, they are joined by two industry experts with firsthand experience managing these exact types of deals: Chandrashekhar Vattikuti (ex-CPO of Inmobi and SVP of their Telco Cloud business) and Prakash Deep Maheshwari (head of product at Grab and former director of growth for Netflix in India and Southeast Asia). The group explores whether Indian telcos are desperate for differentiation or simply cashing in on a gold rush where the smartest move is to sell shovels–or in this case, subscribers. Prakash argues this is a classic Prisoner’s Dilemma: once one telco bundles an AI service, the others have no choice but to follow. They also break down the actual structure of these deals, from minimum guarantees to the marketing halo the partnerships create. The conversation gets into why OpenAI likely entered these deals "kicking and screaming" to protect its platform ambitions, while Chandra offers a reality check on whether these massive user numbers will actually stick around once the free periods end. _____________ Episodes referenced in the conversation: 1. ‘Do we even need product managers?’- Two by Two episode 13 with Chandrashekhar Vattikuti 2. ‘Threat models, using taste to defend margins, ChatGPT’s ‘collab’ with Phonepe’- Zero Shot episode 9 Sections: 00:00 – The ‘Reverse engineering’ experiment 04:36 – Are telcos becoming just dumb pipes?  13:14 – The gold rush for subscribers  29:51 – How these deals are actually structured  47:38 – Why OpenAI resisted these partnerships  58:09 – Will users actually stick around?_____________ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    1h 26m
  6. What will bring ambition back from the dead?

    13/11/2025

    What will bring ambition back from the dead?

    The popular narrative often blames Gen Z for a lack of ambition, but is it the millennials who are truly suffering from “ambition fatigue”? This week on Two by Two, the conversation takes its lead from The Ken’s deputy editor, Arundhati Ramanathan’s recent and concerning article, “Indian Tech Companies are Spawning an Ambitionless Generation”. Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down to discuss how to solve this cross-generational problem and bring the “fire back in the belly”, with or without burning the midnight lamp.  They explore the striking ambition gap between driven founders/CEOs and their often-indifferent employees. Is this growing apathy a fault of the corporate environment and a lack of opportunity, or is the responsibility for finding purpose solely on the individual? Can the corporate world reignite ambition, and can it truly rise from the dead? Joining the hosts to tackle this multifold issue are three experts: Gaston Schmitz  Gaston is a partner/executive and founder coach at the Asian Leadership Institute, guiding senior executives at Fortune 500 companies and high-growth startup founders across 30+ countries. With over 20,000 hours of experience, he employs a personalised approach rooted in mindfulness and neuroscience to help leaders expand their perspective and identify blind spots.  Vipul Nanda Vipul is the director of product marketing at Databahn. His professional history includes significant roles at major fintech platforms, including a tenure as director of product marketing at Cashfree Payments and product marketing manager at Razorpay. Additionally, Nanda is the co-founder of the GoPMM community for product marketers in India and holds an advisory position with Antler. Arundhati Ramanathan Arundhati is the deputy editor at The Ken. Based in Bengaluru, she is a seasoned journalist who focuses on in-depth, long-form stories about India's startup ecosystem, entrepreneurship, and the fintech industry. Her work often explores the significant trends and challenges impacting the tech landscape, such as venture capital, founder strategies, and shifts in workforce dynamics. ----Additional reading: ‘Indian Tech Companies are Spawning an Ambitionless Generation’ by Arundhati Ramanathanhttps://the-ken.com/story/indian-tech-companies-are-spawning-an-ambitionless-generation/?t=251112092335 Last episode Gaston was in- ‘Where AI can and can’t replace human coaching’https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/where-ai-can-and-cant-replace-human-coaching/ Warren Buffet’s shareholder lettershttps://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html Marshall Goldsmith’s 6 daily questionshttps://www.marshallgoldsmith.com/post/six-daily-questions The Three Signs of a Miserable Job: A Fable for Managers by Patrick Lencionihttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/749937.The_Three_Signs_of_a_Miserable_Job Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carsehttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/189989.Finite_and_Infinite_Games ----  This episode was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    1h 19m
  7. The great big Indian IPO

    06/11/2025

    The great big Indian IPO

    What is the “listing pop” that everyone is chasing, and does it still matter six months later? This simple question is the starting point for a deep look into the current boom in the Indian Initial Public Offering (IPO) market. Despite a massive influx of investor wealth, the standards for companies going public have significantly dropped.  In this episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by their colleagues, The Ken’s finance editor, Anand Kalyanaraman, and deputy editor, Seetharaman G to explore how the initial “IPO event” relates to a company’s long-term performance. They discuss how high valuations from private investors are merely being validated at the public listing. They also examine the rise of “flipping”—the practice of quickly selling IPO shares for a profit—a tactic now accepted by many large institutions as just part of “the game”.  The episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, particularly what IPO companies did we miss out on that you know are living happily ever after, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.

    58 min
  8. How do we reimagine hospitals from scratch?

    30/10/2025

    How do we reimagine hospitals from scratch?

    What’s the dumbest thing about hospitals that we still tolerate in 2025? This simple question kicks off a deep dive into the broken core of the Indian healthcare system. From confusing X-ray pricing and misaligned incentives that prioritise “sick-care” over healthcare, to the irritating experience of endless queues and fragmented records, the problems are deeply entrenched in the system.  In this episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar talk to two founders who are not just trying to patch the system, but rebuild it from the ground up. Varun Dubey of Superhealth and Mayank Banerjee of Even Healthcare are both creating smaller, hyperlocal, and experience-focused hospitals. They break down how they’re unbundling the bloated cost structures of traditional hospitals, redesigning the patient journey, and realigning incentives by putting doctors on full-time salaries with ESOPs.  The conversation explores the difficulty of disrupting the current healthcare system and the challenges of scaling innovative models that prioritise patient well-being and affordability.  This episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.

    1h 28m
  9. Deepavali Break

    23/10/2025

    Deepavali Break

    Two by Two

    1 min
  10. No Explainers, No Takeaways: One Year of Two by Two

    31/07/2025

    No Explainers, No Takeaways: One Year of Two by Two

    Join Rohin and Praveen as they celebrate the one-year anniversary of the 2x2 podcast, reflecting on 52 episodes of business and strategy discussions. This special ‘vibes’ episode looks back at their journey creating Two by Two, the evolution of the show, and future plans, deviating from their usual topic-focused format. Praveen shares key meta-narratives he picked from the past year, including a "desperation-driven convergence" where companies like Flipkart and Phonepe try to become each other. He also highlights themes such as the government shaping markets as a "competitor" or through "artificial constraints", and a "great career existential crisis" impacting roles from engineers to marketers. Other themes include the "destruction and retreat of big tech in India", the podcast's contrarian framing of topics, and a focus on India's "livability crisis", addressing issues like urban infrastructure and air pollution. We’d love to hear what you think about Two by Two as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    1h 12m
  11. 2024 Year-end special

    26/12/2024 · BONUS

    2024 Year-end special

    Welcome to the year-end special edition of Two by Two. We’ve released 22 episodes of Two by Two since our inaugural edition in July.  We’ve covered an incredible breadth of counterintuitive topics framed as, well, two by twos.  Would Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe became Flipkart? Did Delhi prick Bengaluru’s bubble? Is the golden era of the software engineer over? Why is health insurance broken? How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? Why is Zepto behaving like a gold medallist? Can venture capitalists do no wrong? Dmart versus the challengers at the gates. AI and the impending disruption of Indian SaaS.  We’ve had incredible fun exploring these ideas with a bunch of really sharp, experienced and opinionated guests.  Finding guests who don’t hesitate to speak their minds and state unpopular truths has been one of the hardest things. Far, far tougher than finding interesting topics. We owe all our guests a huge thanks for trusting us. Far too many professionals and leaders prefer to stick to rehearsed and predictable talking points in public these days. We’d started Two by Two with the ambition to operate at the intersection of curiosity and synthesis. Each week, we said we’d spot the hidden connections and unasked questions. We’d identify the cast of players and their motivations.  We’d bring in incredible people to discuss these with. We’d try to answer simple yet fundamental questions like, what is going on, why is it happening, who gains and who loses, and where is all of this leading to? By always asking questions. Always connecting the dots. Always being unfiltered and uninhibited. We wanted Two by Two to be ‘your personal investigative brain’.  In 2025 we hope to make Two by Two even more interesting and unpredictable. Yes, at its core it will still be a weekly podcast. But I’m excited at the possibility of doing so much more by involving our subscribers, listeners and readers in these endeavours.  We want to make Two by Two ‘our collective investigative brain’.  And hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan will continue to do so with a new episode every Thursday. To listen to all episodes of Two by Two, consider subscribing to The Ken’s Premium plan, which in addition to the podcast, will also get you access to our long-form stories, Premium newsletters and visual stories. If you just want access to Two by Two, you can do that as well on Apple Podcasts with a paid subscription. Two by Two is also a free weekly newsletter published every Friday. You can sign up for it here.   Listen to all Two by Two episodes here: 1. Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes Flipkart? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/will-flipkart-become-phonepe-before-phonepe-becomes-flipkart/ 2. Why has all the excitement and disruption gone out of startups? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-has-all-the-excitement-and-disruption-gone-out-of-startups/ 3. Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/ 4. Delhi pricked the Bengaluru bubble -  https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/delhi-pricked-the-bangalore-bubble/ 5. Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/ 6. Is the golden era of the (software) engineer over? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-the-golden-era-of-the-software-engineer-over/ 7. Google Pay: Big. Successful. Vulnerable - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/google-pay-big-successful-vulnerable/ 8. Private coaching is eating away at schooling - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/private-coaching-is-eating-away-at-schooling/ 9. Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-couldnt-stripe-become-the-stripe-of-india/ 10. Health insurance in India is ripe for disruption - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/health-insurance-is-ripe-for-disruption/ 11. Netflix and its last growth market - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/netflixs-last-growth-market/ 12. Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ather-energy-was-a-pioneer-can-it-also-be-a-leader/ 13. Do we even need Product Managers? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/do-we-even-need-product-managers/ 14. How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/ 15. The relentless rise of the government as a competitor - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/the-relentless-rise-of-the-government-as-a-competitor/ 16. What does the future hold for Ola Electric? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/what-does-ola-electrics-future-hold/ 17. Can venture capitalists do no wrong? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/can-venture-capitalists-do-no-wrong/ 18. Dmart versus the challengers at the gate - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/dmart-versus-the-challengers-at-the-gate/ 19. Marketing is eating itself from the inside - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/marketing-is-eating-i...

    56 min
  12. Happy Deepavali!

    31/10/2024 · BONUS

    Happy Deepavali!

    Happy Deepavali, dear listeners! On account of Deepavali, the Two by Two team is also taking a small break. But don't worry; we'll be back with our regular programming next week. Until then, you can always listen to past episodes of Two by Two that you haven't gotten around to yet. If you're a Premium subscriber listening to this on The Ken’s mobile app or on Apple podcasts, you can just scroll down and listen to any of our episodes in their full, unedited form. On the other hand, if you aren’t a premium subscriber yet, you can listen to one of our older episodes which we’ve unlocked for you.  In fact, in the latest unlocked episode, we argue, debate, and discuss what Netflix needs to do to win in its last growth market — India. Netflix's last growth market. (Full republished episode for free users available on Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | Youtube) By the way, if you’re in the mood for something other than two-by-twos and business models, why don’t you head over to Daybreak, The Ken’s daily podcast? Just last week, our colleagues Snigdha and Rahel did an amazing episode where they spoke to multiple people to understand why women freeze their eggs. Successful women are freezing their eggs. And that's on men. (Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube Music) If you have suggestions for potential future episodes, we’re all ears. We’re also all ears if you have recommendations for interesting guests we can invite to the show—guests who know their stuff and aren’t afraid to speak their minds, even if it goes against conventional wisdom. Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    3 min
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Hosts & Guests

About

The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

Information

  • Channel
    The Ken
  • Creator
    The Ken
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2025
  • Episodes
    119
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © (c) 2024 The Ken
  • Show Website
    Two by Two

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