Being Liminal

Martin Dowson & Brian Hoadley

Being Liminal is a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business & Society today. Brian and Martin explore the mindsets and skills that are necessary to navigate a world that is undergoing increasing and ever-present flux, the limits organisations place on themselves by not acknowledging the liminality of change and the edges of todays systems where we find examples of how our futures could be - if we could just embrace liminal leadership. www.beingliminal.com

  1. Neither and Both

    5d ago

    Neither and Both

    Series 3 opens with Brian and Martin doing the thing the show is named after - sitting in the uncomfortable middle of a transition rather than analysing it from a safe distance. Brian is part-way through a staged shift from full-time consultant to full-time novelist, and describes himself as "neither and both": no longer fully one thing, not yet the other. Martin is moving deeper into independent advisory work, where the job has become helping teams who have no realistic plan walk into a room with no predetermined framework and trust that the work will emerge. From there they open it out and argue that a plan should be a loosely-held theory rather than a fixed commitment, that frameworks and methods are means and not the destination, and that organisations are now in permanent flux — "instability is the stability of the moment." Listen in to find out how they end up deciding that a Farmer would make for a great guest and where the season could go (maybe?)- away from design talk, toward conversations with creatives, makers and farmers about how everyone is navigating the same flux. With a challenging reframe to close - how do we move from human-centred design to human-centred business. Mentioned in this episode: Plotters vs. pantsers Design tools applied to fiction: journey mapping, experience maps, persona building Brian's five-year plan (set out in 2022; consulting-to-writing transition) Brian's publishing build-out: five novels published, a sixth in progress, further fantasy and crime series planned, Shopify site, TikTok shop Lloyds Banking Group (where Martin and Brian previously worked together) Learnings from the Pre-Fjord era of Accenture (Martin's early career) Project-to-product operating model shift and Fractional head of product and design roles (Martin & Brian's client work)Multi-System pressures viewed through UK farming: inheritance tax changes, climate change, commodity price suppression "Human-centred business" (Martin's closing reframe of human-centred design) This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    51 min
  2. Navigating Uncertainty

    03/04/2025

    Navigating Uncertainty

    Liminality is about existing in transition, where uncertainty and ambiguity dominate. Innovation, at its core, is a liminal activity—organisations step away from established norms to explore new futures. But how comfortable are businesses with this uncertainty? In this episode, Richard Walzer joins us to discuss: * Why innovation is inherently liminal—leaving the known to explore possible futures * The pendulum swing of innovation—why businesses drift between embracing and resisting change * How future-back thinking can help leaders avoid stagnation * The tension between Perform (stability) and Transform (innovation) in organizations * What Apple, Pixar, and Xerox PARC teach us about the importance of balance * How leaders can become more comfortable with uncertainty instead of reacting to it As Martin notes: “Liminality is going to be a very constant feature.” If businesses continue to treat change as an on/off switch, are they setting themselves up for failure? Episode Highlights 02:00 — Innovation as a liminal state—stepping away from the known 06:00 — Why businesses get stuck between the past and the future 10:00 — The pendulum swing of change—why organizations abandon innovation 15:00 — The 70/20/10 rule for balancing efficiency and transformation 22:00 — What Future-Back Thinking means for long-term resilience 35:00 — Why leadership struggles with ambiguity and liminal decision-making 50:00 — Why balance is about perpetual motion, not stability 💡 “The biggest challenge we have with businesses is they are generally laser-focused on what we are doing today.” – Richard WalzerFollow Richard on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-walzer-25140715 Stay Connected: - Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast. - Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website. - Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    1 hr
  3. Liminal Thoughts: Are We Sleepwalking into a Creative Crisis?

    02/10/2025

    Liminal Thoughts: Are We Sleepwalking into a Creative Crisis?

    A new format that we are trying out where one of us shares a shorter deep dive on a current topic - we are interested in your responses and thoughts on the topics in these shorter episodes and we will pick up on the topic together in our longer format sessions. In this episode of Being Liminal, I (Martin) explore the growing intersection of AI and creativity. The rise of AI-generated content is both fascinating and unsettling—offering new possibilities but also raising difficult questions about what it means to create, connect, and be human. One example that caught my attention is Virtually Parkinson—a digital recreation of the legendary broadcaster Michael Parkinson. It’s a remarkable technical achievement, yet something about it feels… incomplete. The rhythm, the unpredictability, the nuance of human conversation—missing. And that gap made me wonder: 🔹 Are we heading towards a world where AI-generated content replaces human creativity?🔹 If creativity is about connection, what happens when future generations only experience art, music, and storytelling created by machines?🔹 How do we balance the commercial drivers of AI with the deeper cultural and human impact of creative work? Key Themes in This Episode ✅ AI’s impact on creative industries—opportunities and risks✅ The blurred line between augmentation and replacement of human creativity✅ The business incentives behind AI-driven content and what they mean for the future✅ The potential long-term consequences on human connection and cultural identity Why This Matters Creative work isn’t just about output—it shapes our society, challenges our thinking, and helps us make sense of the world. If we don’t recognise and measure its true value, we risk losing something irreplaceable. Join the Conversation What do you think—are we at risk of losing the human essence of creativity? Or will AI simply become another tool for expression? Let’s discuss. Share your thoughts in the comments or reach out on LinkedIn. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    26 min

  4. 12/20/2024

    Longwave Thinking – Thriving in Complex Systems

    Longwave Thinking – Thriving in Complex Systems Part 3 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider Systems Introduction In the final episode of our three-part series, we move beyond organisations to the broader systems that shape them. We discuss the extended cycles of disruption impacting society and business alike. From climate change to economic upheaval, we explore how leaders can adapt to and thrive in a world where uncertainty is the new normal. Key Takeaways • Limits vs. Limitless Growth: The clash between systemic sustainability and business incentives. • Navigating Disruption: Understanding and operating within prolonged instability. • Complex Systems Thinking: Recognizing interdependencies and building resilience. • Thriving in Liminality: Shifting mindsets to embrace opportunity amidst constraints. Stay Connected: - Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast. - Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website. - Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    1 hr

  5. 12/16/2024

    Navigating Transformation – Organisational Blind Spots

    Navigating Transformation – Organizational Blind Spots Part 2 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider Systems Introduction In part two of our series, we zoom out to explore transformation at the organisational level. We discuss why businesses often repeat past mistakes, how continuous improvement and transformation intertwine, and the systemic blind spots that hinder meaningful change. If your organization struggles with delivering transformation that sticks, this episode is for you. Key Takeaways • Beyond Buzzwords: What transformation really means and how it differs from continuous improvement. • Systemic Failures: Why organizations fail to learn from past transformations. • Illusions of Control: The ripple effects of isolated decision-making. • Balancing Acts: The tension between short-term wins and long-term foundations for change. Stay Connected: - Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast. - Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website. - Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    49 min
  6. Design's Woes Are a Symptom of Larger Business Challenges

    12/09/2024

    Design's Woes Are a Symptom of Larger Business Challenges

    Design's Woes Are a Symptom of Larger Business Challenges Part 1 of 3 exploring three levels of disruption from Design Team to Wider Sytems Introduction: In the first episode of this three-part series of Being Liminal, we begin at the team level, exploring why design often feels undervalued within organisations. We unpack how design’s challenges, from production-focused roles to mismatched values, reflect larger organisational struggles. If you’ve ever wondered why design sometimes feels like it’s stuck in a cycle of frustration, this episode is the perfect starting point. Key Takeaways: - Shifting Value of Design: Businesses are redefining the value of design, focusing more on production efficiency and less on strategic vision. - Leadership Changes: High-profile design leaders are leaving traditional roles, signaling shifts in organisational priorities. - Design as Part of the Production Chain: The integration of design into delivery models reflects a broader trend of aligning design efforts with measurable business outcomes. - Value Communication Gaps: Misaligned language and expectations between design teams and other business functions, especially around Values and what constitutes Value - exacerbate challenges. - A New Role for Designers: Designers must adapt by understanding business priorities and collaborating more effectively across disciplines. Stay Connected: - Visit www.beingliminal.com for more episodes and to learn about the podcast. - Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website. - Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review Being Liminal on your favourite podcast platform! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    43 min
  7. Joe Macleod: Endineering - Designing Ends

    12/05/2024

    Joe Macleod: Endineering - Designing Ends

    Joe Macleod: Endineering - Designing Ends This episode was recorded at the end of 2023 just before we took a hiatus in publishing. It is as relevant now as it was then but you may find references to current events of 2023. Our apologies but we did have some sound issues which we weren’t able to rectify - it doesn’t alter the content but you will hear a few seeming glitches in the matrix :-) Introduction: In this episode of Being Liminal, we are joined by Joe Macleod, author of Ends and Endineering. Together, we delve into the fascinating and often overlooked world of designing for endings. Joe shares insights on how businesses and consumers can rethink their relationship with product lifecycles, focusing on creating meaningful and sustainable endings. From circularity to corporate responsibility, this conversation explores how endings can drive innovation, transform industries and connect across different levels of system thinking. We particularly like how the consideration of Ends challenges standard Business and Product Model operating systems. Key Takeaways: • The Art of Ending: Businesses are great at onboarding customers but often fail to design meaningful offboarding experiences, missing opportunities for loyalty and brand equity. • Consumer Responsibility vs. Corporate Accountability: Joe highlights how companies subordinate the responsibility of product endings to consumers, creating challenges in recycling and waste management. • Circularity and Innovation: Examples from companies like Patagonia and Fairphone illustrate the power of integrating sustainability and endings into design processes. • Cultural Perspectives on Endings: Western consumerism’s disconnect from natural cycles contrasts with traditions in cultures like Japan, where endings are honored. • Future of Leadership: Understanding the impact that not addressing Ends is having, systemically in our world critically challenges business and institutional leadership to collaborate at a systems level to address shared challenges like sustainability. Guest Information: Joe Macleod is the founder of AndEnd and a pioneer in the field of end-focused design. As the author of Ends and Endineering, Joe’s work challenges traditional views on consumption, encouraging businesses to think beyond product lifecycles. His expertise has influenced global brands and sparked important conversations on sustainability and responsibility in design. Ends ebook https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/744267 25% off discount code: NCKEV Endineering ebook https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/1116883 25% off discount code: NCKEV Endineering training course. Starts Jan 14th. https://learn.endineering.co/courses/endineering-course-cohort-11-starts-Jan-14th 25% off discount code: 25offendscohort Stay Connected: • Visit Being Liminal for past episodes, guest bios, and insights. • Connect with Joe Macleod and explore his work on AndEnd. - Share your feedback, suggest future guests, or pose questions for upcoming episodes by reaching out through the website. • Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast to help others find us! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    1h 3m
  8. Ben Reason: Embracing a Sense of Place, Edge Thinking and Systemic Change in the Anthropocene

    11/28/2023

    Ben Reason: Embracing a Sense of Place, Edge Thinking and Systemic Change in the Anthropocene

    Ben Reason, one of the early pioneers of Service Design and co-founder of the boundary pushing agency Livework joins Martin and Brian for a thoughtful discussion on navigating the liminal spaces and the systemic changes that are shaping our world as we know it.  Ben's thought-leadership on designing in the Anthropocene was the stimulus for recording this conversation but it builds on the work of many other thinkers in this space.We challenge the allure of scale, examining the benefits of diversity and decentralization over a singular homogeneous approach to moving society forward. Ben references the current state of disruption - such as Florida's housing crisis and California's recurring wildfires - and the role of technology in scaling alternative systems while we also explore the advantages of devolved and decentralised power highlighting the political and human factors that drive change and the current systems that may stifle it.The conversation also spotlights the evolution of design and its profound impact on companies today. From exploring the digital mindset and the emergence of in-house design to the geopolitical influences that shape design practices, our conversation covers an array of topics - all of which are linked when you zoom out from the detail. Finally, we investigate the challenges of designing in a more life-centered way and how design can serve as an instrument in addressing these challenges.  We hope you enjoy this reflective conversation with Ben and find some useful and interesting jumping off points for your own exploration of Liminal thinking. Livework: https://liveworkstudio.com/ Ben on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/breasy/ Design for the Anthropocene:https://www.slideshare.net/Livework/design-for-the-anthropocene-252901562 Being LiminalIs a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business Transformation. Brian and Martin explore the mindset and skills currently missing in Business Leadership of Transformation that when present contribute to the 30% success rate of Large-Scale Business Transformation and Change.The podcast explores Systems and Design Thinking as a necessary approach to leading through the Liminal State that is a Transformation programme. Each episode is either a research interview with a Guest Expert or a working discussion session between the hosts Martin Dowson and Brian Hoadely as they develop the content that will form their new book: Being Liminal. This podcast is your opportunity to eavesdrop on their research and writing process. Podcast Website: www.beingliminal.com Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/being-liminal/id1690994247 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/7aJYpbWWZ85SBt27pfUgDo Martin Dowson on LinkedIn Brian Hoadley on LinkedIn This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.beingliminal.com

    1h 13m
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About

Being Liminal is a podcast about the changing nature of Leadership in Business & Society today. Brian and Martin explore the mindsets and skills that are necessary to navigate a world that is undergoing increasing and ever-present flux, the limits organisations place on themselves by not acknowledging the liminality of change and the edges of todays systems where we find examples of how our futures could be - if we could just embrace liminal leadership. www.beingliminal.com

Information

  • Creator
    Martin Dowson & Brian Hoadley
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    18
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Brian Hoadley & Martin Dowson
  • Show Website
    Being Liminal