Beyond Lithium

BioZen Batteries
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The success of renewable and green energy (like wind and solar) requires a diversity of energy storage options — beyond lithium-ion batteries. What will those alternatives look like? Each episode, we bring you a new perspective from a leading authority in batteries and energy storage focused on expanding the electrical grid with up-and-coming technology.

  1. APR 17

    30 | Doug Wilson — Sr. Fire Plans Examiner, Scottsdale AZ Fire Department

    🚒🧯 What’s the best strategy to prevent future battery fires? What type of energy storage system (ESS) does the fire department think is best? How do we build safe energy storage systems? For answers, we turn to Doug Wilson—Senior Fire Plans Examiner for Scottsdale, AZ Fire Department—in conversation with BioZen Batteries’ CEO Nate Kirchhofer. You’ll hear about Doug’s 30+ year background in both public and private Fire Protection as a registered Fire Protection Engineer, and some insights about the unique career path that that role entails, as well as some of the handful of universities that offer 4-year and/or Masters degrees in Fire Protection Engineering. The conversation dives into the challenge of proactively staying ahead of new ESS technologies while working from a retrospectively-published 3-year code cycle for the International Fire Code (IFC) from the International Code Council (ICC). Doug comments that, “the Fire Code is published every three years. … The previous one was 2021 and the next edition will be the 2024 Code. When the 2021 code first started being written, it was in 2018, using 2018 technology. It wasn't adopted until 2022. So, in 2024, we were working with the best technology we had in 2018. We're six years behind right now.” The episode moves to a conversation about the 2.16 MWh Li-ion battery ESS fire and deflagration event that occurred in Surprise, AZ in 2019, and some thoughts about the best practices to avoid similar in the future. (Spoiler: get the Fire Protection Engineers involved early!) It’s hard to know what you don’t know about the safety of a new technology, and the tension between the urgency of deployment and maintaining rigorous safety and testing makes it challenging. Below are some links for the “what's required” (ICC), “how to do it” (NFPA), and “testing it” (UL) resources for ESS discussed in the episode: The International Code Council (ICC), including International Fire Code (IFC): ICC IFC Section 1206: Stationary Fuel Cell Power Systems ICC IFC Section 1207: Electrical Energy Storage Systems The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Standards: NFPA 13: Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems NFPA 855: Standard for the Installation of Stationary Energy Storage Systems The Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Standards UL 9540: Energy Storage Systems and Equipment UL 9540A: Test Method for Battery Energy Storage Systems (BESS)—the only consensus standard explicitly cited in NFPA 855 [Recorded 10 December 2024]

    20 min

  2. JAN 9

    29 | Constantin Eis & Giovanni Damato — CEO & US President, CMBlu Energy

    🐳 Why doesn’t Nature store energy using metal? And what does it use? And how many kWh of energy per liter is stored in a Blue Whale?! For answers, we turn to the dynamic duo of Constantin Eis (CEO, CMBlu Energy AG—the mothership) & Giovanni Damato (President, CMBlu Energy, Inc.—the CA, US manufacturing subsidiary) who sit down (in person!) with BioZen’s CEO Nate Kirchhofer at RE+ in Anaheim, CA—the most comprehensive clean energy industry event in North America. This discussion covers the “secret sauce” working mechanism of CMBlu’s flagship Organic SolidFlow technology, combining elements of both flow batteries and solid state energy storage, as well as its advantages in: safety (no fire) sustainability (recyclable earth-abundant conflict free materials) security (local, mature, vertically integrated supply chains) footprint (efficient built environment; stack vertically) flexibility / modularity (separate scaling of power and energy) serviceability (conventional parts for repairs and (de)commissioning) Hear about CMBlu’s market traction, including pilot projects with WEC Energy Group in Wisconsin, Salt River Project in Phoenix Arizona, and the DOE and National labs—not to mention their first commercial order by Mercedes. Stick around for more info about the Organic SolidFlow battery cycle life and its “Depots” and “Shuttles”, its differentiation from lithium ion technology, audacious goals of getting to $0.01/kWh LCOS, some thoughts on the petroleum industry, and advice on relentless pursuit of innovation: "I think what we needed to learn is that no one is really waiting for you apparently, so you really need to do it by yourself." We also discuss the continued positive impacts of the 2022 IRA and BIL, trends in utilities’ energy storage going from current 4h discharge to 8h+, forecasts for 2035 and even 50 years from now, and some things that surprised Giovanni and Constantin during the commercialization process. [Recorded 10 Sept 2024]

    25 min

  3. 10/07/2024

    28 | Arvin Ganesen — CEO, Fourth Power

    🧗‍♂️ What is Fourth Power’s Guinness World record? Can we make renewables just as dispatchable as fossil fuels? And how is a battery like a carabiner?! For answers, tune into this episode where Arvin Ganesan, CEO of Fourth Power, sits down to discuss the company's groundbreaking thermal battery technology and its role in the future of renewable energy with host Nate Kirchhofer, CEO of BioZen Batteries. Fourth Power, spun out from MIT and Georgia Tech, has developed a system that uses liquid tin heated to over 2400°C to store energy and discharge for 5-500 hours. Arvin explains that this scalable and low-cost energy storage solution is critical for enabling a fully renewable grid, as it addresses the challenges of making renewable energy sources dispatchable and reliable, well-aligned with the global transition away from fossil fuels. The discussion moves to what utilities prioritize—reliability, safety, and cost—when considering new technologies. Fourth Power's thermal battery system is designed with these priorities in mind, ensuring it can offer renewable energy that is ultimately cheaper than fossil fuels and also available for dispatch like traditional fossil fuel power plants, giving utilities critical control over energy generation. Hear some technical details of Fourth Power’s "sun in a box" technology that involves storing energy in carbon blocks heated by liquid tin. Arvin contrasts their technology with other thermal battery solutions as well as lithium-ion batteries, particularly in scalability and cost-efficiency; while lithium-ion batteries have been crucial for short-duration storage, the scale of storage needed to support a fully renewable grid—100 terawatt-hours—demands more affordable and scalable alternatives. Looking forward, Fourth Power is building a 1 MWh prototype facility near Boston, slated for completion by 2025. This facility will test all components at full scale (1 GWh compatible) to de-risk the technology before scaling to commercial levels. The company’s next milestones include durability testing of the system's components, integrating a full one-megawatt-hour battery by 2025, and collaborating with utility partners on a 10-megawatt-hour pilot by 2026, all critical to demonstrating the technology’s reliability and preparing for larger deployments. The discussion wouldn’t be complete without coverage of regulatory and market challenges in introducing new technologies to utilities, which have traditionally been cautious adopters. The increasing demand for power, driven by electrification and data centers, will push utilities to seek out innovative solutions that provide reliability, affordability, and clean energy. [Recorded 4 June 2024]

    25 min

  4. 08/09/2024

    27 | Ben Kaun — Chief Commercial Officer, Inlyte Energy

    🔋 What’s a 50 year old battery technology, made from abundant elements, with no risk of thermal runaway and no cycling degradation? Why was it originally targeted for EVs but now more for grid storage? What unique advantages does this decades-old technology bring to the table in today’s market? What do the utilities think? In this latest episode, our guest Ben Kaun, Chief Commercial Officer at Inlyte Energy, delves into these questions —and a lot more—with host Nate Kirchhofer, CEO of BioZen Batteries. Ben has a rich background in energy storage, including stints at Tesla Motors and the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), and shares his insights into the evolving landscape of energy storage technologies and his journey that led him to Inlyte, a company focused on commercializing this decades-old technology. Ben’s energy storage journey is fascinatingly personal, rooted in his father’s early work in electrochemistry, which sparked his initial interest in batteries. He recounts the twists and turns of his career, from working in his father’s backyard startup to joining Tesla before the Roadster’s debut. He touches on the challenges of advocating for battery storage in the utility sector, a space often dominated by concerns of safety and reliability. These experiences have brought him to his current role at Inlyte, where he’s now pushing forward a technology that’s nearly 50 years old but that Ben argues is well-suited for today’s energy challenges. He explains that while lithium-ion batteries dominate the market, their limitations in long-duration storage and safety concerns leave room for alternatives. Inlyte’s technology offers a reliable solution for 6 to 12-hour storage needs. Ben’s narrative hints at a future where this technology could play a significant role, especially in scenarios where safety and cost are critical. But can this technology truly compete with the behemoth that is lithium-ion? As the conversation deepens, Nate and Ben explore the broader implications of energy storage on the grid and the importance of long-duration storage in achieving decarbonization goals. Ben paints a picture of a rapidly evolving market where traditional utilities, once skeptical of batteries, are now facing the urgent realities of intermittent and exponentially growing renewable energy. He also discusses the challenges of integrating new technologies into a highly regulated and risk-averse industry. For listeners curious about the economic and technical nuances of energy storage, this segment offers valuable insights. What will be the tipping point for utilities to embrace these new technologies fully? In the final segment, Ben offers advice for those looking to enter the energy storage field. He emphasizes the importance of aligning one’s work with a greater purpose and remaining open to new opportunities. [Recorded 8 May 2024]

    40 min

  5. 06/28/2024

    26 | Dr. Daniel Howard (Redux) — CEO, Quantum Energy, Inc.

    📊 What is impact, and how is it quantified? Why are 87% of clean energy projects severely delayed or failing? If current electricity consumption is 4000 TWh/year, what will it be in 2050 (hint: a lot more)? What is the biggest challenge in decarbonizing that increased demand? And what is BioZen's possible impact? For answers, we're bringing back our guest from Episode 4, Dr. Daniel Howard, CEO and cofounder of Quantum Energy Inc, to join BioZen Batteries' CEO Nate Kirchhofer. Daniel, and Quantum, is a big advocate for standardizing the way that impact is quantified through industry-standard lifecycle assessments (LCA). Ultimately, this enables data-driven evidence to justify permitting and policy decisions in an otherwise murky benefits-vs-negatives ecosystem. "Oftentimes those overlooked costs, i.e. the [environmental and health] externalities, can be far larger than the infrastructure costs. And simply by quantifying them and including them in our decision making frameworks, we can make decisions that have much better impact and much lower total costs for everyone—and help to create a society, and ideally a new iteration of capitalism, that's more equitable and more sustainable," says Daniel. BioZen also contracted Quantum to run an impact analysis for our technology (read the article here), so stick around to hear Daniel summarize the results of that analysis, and think about how you can apply this to your clean technology! Recorded 16 May 2024. [BioZen Batteries produces this show as part of the Clean Power Media Group at cleanpower.media. If you would like to interact more, please send us an email at ⁠⁠⁠⁠hello@biozenbatteries.com⁠⁠⁠⁠, write a comment, like, follow, share, or even leave us a voice message on your favorite episodes. If you like what we do, please consider a monthly contribution.]

    19 min

  6. 04/21/2024

    25 | Mike Berger — Director of Product Engineering, Stryten Energy

    🚀 “It’s not rocket science,” someone once told Mike Berger, Stryten Energy’s Director of Product Engineering. "Yes," he agreed. “It’s probably even a little more complicated than rocket science because really it takes chemistry, electricity, materials, and electrochemistry.” Listen to this episode to understand what he’s talking about in discussion with BioZen’s CEO Nate Kirchhofer. Stryten Energy is a US manufacturer of high-quality lead (Pb) batteries, lithium (Li) batteries, and vanadium (V) redox flow batteries (RFBs)—as well as chargers and performance management software. Their variety of Industrial Pb battery production plants are concentrated in the US Midwest, whereas their Innovation Centers are located in Ottowa (Li-ion) and Denver (VRFBs). Overall, with 2.5 million sq ft of manufacturing space and 2500 employees, Stryten cranks out 14 GWh of energy storage products per year, putting them at #3 in the US, and they address four major market segments: Essential Power: telecom, utilities, microgrids, residential solar, security Motive Power: 90% of it is forklifts, as well as chargers and performance management tools Transportation: batteries for automotive e, truck, SUV, heavy duty, agriculture, marine Military and Government: submarines, micro grids, combat vehicles, ground logistics Mike brings a wealth of insights from his 30 years of experience in Pb acid batteries. We learn about tradeoffs in performance / cost / design decisions to make a battery that meets customer requirements at a good value, and how Pb batteries compare to Li-ion. We also learn about some of the biggest challenges in scaling up energy storage to meet the demand needed in the next 10-20 years: “I think the scale is by far my biggest concern for alternative energy storage, regardless of which chemistry. And that's why I believe that all chemistries are going to be needed because I think they're all going to serve a purpose,” he says, concluding that “Pb chemistry [is] available, affordable, recyclable, safe, reliable and well-understood. We shouldn't dismiss Pb technology just because of its age. I think there's a great opportunity to optimize Pb for these new challenges that are before us.” Stick around for more facts about Stryten and the Pb industry: 90% of Pb batteries used & sold in the US are made in the US. Over 99% of Pb batteries are recycled, and 100% of the Pb that Stryten uses is recycled. The plastic, and in some cases even the acid, can be recycled. Pb has historically been a health risk, but the immense history of innovation, engineering controls, and personal protective equipment now prevent exposure. 99% show a path for value retention and a circular recycling economy. Pb batteries were perfected in the field. In comparison, Li-ion batteries were designed and perfected in the lab. Because of this, lab R&D for Pb batteries will improve efficiency, cycle life, and applications. The Pb industry is old, but they have committed to novel pre-competitive joint R&D with national labs, such as the recently awarded $5M in DOE funding to establish the Consortium for Lead Battery Leadership in Long Duration Energy Storage including Stryten and 7 other BCI-member Pb-battery companies. Remote EV Fast Charging stations may be a great application for Pb batteries due to their safety and reliability. Stryten's Li-ion and VRFB verticals (acquired in the past few years) makes them technology-agnostic and able to deliver a solution to a given customer application (though current bulk of their production is Pb) Recorded 17 January 2024. [BioZen Batteries produces this show as part of the Clean Power Media Group at cleanpower.media. If you would like to interact more, please send us an email at ⁠⁠⁠hello@biozenbatteries.com⁠⁠⁠, write a comment, like, follow, share, or even leave us a voice message on your favorite episodes.]

    26 min

  7. 03/27/2024

    24 | Kieran Claffey — Senior Research Engineer, Southern Company

    🏭 For the electric utilities, what is the most important metric for energy storage technology? What is the rule of 17%? What is dunkelflaute?! For answers, we turn to Kieran Claffey of Southern Company in discussion with BioZen's CEO Nate Kirchhofer. To add some weight to Kieran's opinion, consider that as of 2021, Southern Company is the second largest utility company in the US, serving 9 million gas and electric customers in 6 states and delivering electricity to 120,000 square miles of territory. The Department of Energy targets a $0.05/kWh levelized cost of storage (LCOS) as a key performance parameter for energy storage technology. Kieran emphasizes that utilities instead employ a comprehensive approach considering approximately 30 parameters, including geographic flexibility, energy density, power density, and lots more. The most important? Reliability, and CapEx. Kieran highlights the utilities' need for safe and cost-effective 10-hour duration batteries, which is (and will likely continue to be) beyond lithium-ion's capabilities, even though Li-ion will serve mobile applications and durations 6 h. This insight is possible because Kieran is a subject matter expert in energy storage at Southern Company: his experience ranges from startups making microwatt (1e-6 W) solid lithium batteries, to now where he considers gigawatt (1e9 W) projects, all within the context of regulations like NFPA 855. This enabled him to publish a peer-reviewed manuscript recently, entitiled "Hazards of lithium-ion battery energy storage systems (BESS), mitigation strategies, minimum requirements, and best practices." In that paper the authors emphasize the importance of proper spacing to prevent battery fires, and dispels myths about the frequency of Li-ion battery explosion events: the probability is about 1 in 1400 (at worst), making these systems at least an order of magntude safer than the common claim of "1 in 100 fail." We get a few predictions about the future energy storage mix: that Li-ion and sodium-ion will dominate short-duration storage (0-6 hours), while thermal energy storage and flow batteries may be suitable for medium durations (6-12 hours). For longer durations (12-100 hours), options include pumped hydro, compressed air energy storage, and new battery technologies; hydrogen will likely be one of those, but it seems that a mature hydrogen economy is still a couple decades away due to costs, and everything pales in comparison to the 47 days 😲 of fossil fuel stock in the US. Stick around for a little career advice within the broader goal of contributing to decarbonization—whether through new energy storage technology or even fossil fuels—and tidbits about the burgeoning cleantech scene in Georgia ($20B invested for 20,000 jobs in the southeast in the last 4 years). Power on. Recorded 29 November 2023. [BioZen Batteries produces this show as part of the Clean Power Media Group at cleanpower.media. If you would like to interact more, please send us an email at ⁠⁠hello@biozenbatteries.com⁠⁠, write a comment, like, follow, share, or even leave us a voice message on your favorite episodes.]

    31 min

  8. 03/05/2024

    23 | Cullen Quine — Postdoctoral Researcher at NREL & Co-founder of Activated Energy

    🐝 What is >100X more energy dense (33 kWh/kg) than Li-ion batteries (0.3kW/kg), and why is it so hard to store it at room temperature? What is a naturally-occurring gas that can be uniquely compressed into a non-toxic, non-flammable liquid at room temperature? And, how is beekeeping like energy storage cleantech?! To answer these questions, we're joined by Cullen Quine. He provides insights on his team's work, both as a Postdoctoral Researcher at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) and as Co-Founder of Activated Energy (unaffiliated with NREL), in conversation with BioZen's CEO Nate Kirchhofer. At NREL, Cullen's team focuses on addressing the challenges associated with hydrogen (H2) storage: H2 has low volumetric energy density as a gas, and to increase that energy density, it must be liquefied, which requires energy and an extremely cold temperature of -423°F (-253°C or 20 Kelvin). The main issue then arises during the transfer between containers: to cryogenic liquid H2, everything looks scorching hot, so it flash boils, leading to significant boil-off losses. His solution employs a solid-state material to absorb the gas as it boils off, allowing for recapture and reuse, mitigating losses. This is critical research because H2 has many advantages as a storage medium, including the separation of Power and Energy (which conventional batteries fail at), but there are not good materials for storing it at ambient temperature (where Li-ion currently shines) despite proficiency storing at both cryogenic and hot temperatures. At Activated Energy (one of the 27 companies in CalSEED Cohort 6 along with BioZen), Cullen's team is working to revolutionize energy storage with a system based on compressed liquefied carbon dioxide (CO2). The system discharges energy by releasing the high-pressure liquid CO2 through a turboexpander and then storing it in a low pressure solid state medium. This technology may be particularly appealing for urban environments due to its safety that addresses concerns associated with deploying energy-dense devices near residential areas. Hang around for some discussion of efficiency, market segmentation, NIMBYism, and some advice from Cullen for individuals interested in entering the renewable energy or clean tech sectors. Hint: it's all about the people! Recorded 14 November 2023. BioZen Batteries produces this show as part of the Clean Power Media Group at cleanpower.media. If you would like to interact more, please send us an email at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠hello@biozenbatteries.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, write a comment, like, follow, share, or even leave us a voice message on your favorite episodes. If you like our content, please support production with a recurring monthly donation here: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/beyondlithium/support

    21 min
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About

The success of renewable and green energy (like wind and solar) requires a diversity of energy storage options — beyond lithium-ion batteries. What will those alternatives look like? Each episode, we bring you a new perspective from a leading authority in batteries and energy storage focused on expanding the electrical grid with up-and-coming technology.

Information

  • Creator
    BioZen Batteries
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2025
  • Episodes
    30
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © BioZen Batteries
  • Show Website
    Beyond Lithium