Bricks and Clicks

Cliff Hudson and Craig Miller
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  • Entrepreneurship
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What does it really take to lead a legacy brand into the digital era—and keep it thriving in the era of AI? Why do some companies succeed, and others don't? Bricks and Clicks is a masterclass in modern business strategy, discplined execution, and transformational growth. Hosted by Cliff Hudson, former CEO of Sonic Drive-In, and Craig Miller, veteran strategist and technology leader, this podcast goes inside the C-suite to explore how traditional businesses can evolve, innovate, and lead in a fast-changing, AI-driven world. Each episode features actionable, in-depth discussions with visionary executives, digital pioneers, and brand builders who are redefining what it means to serve customers in the age of disruption. From transformational leadership in legacy companies to digital strategy, operational reinvention, and customer-centric innovation in the era of AI, Bricks and Clicks offers candid, practical conversations packed with takeaways you can apply to your own business. Whether you're in the boardroom, a member of the C-suite, part of the front-line leadership, or building a business from the ground up, join Cliff and Craig as they talk with the minds shaping the future of business—where physical and digital meet, and transformation becomes reality. Bricks and Clicks is a production of Forbes Books.

Episodes

  1. Sep 3

    AI Guardrails without Gridlock with former Congressman Brad Carson

    Go inside the C-Suite with former U.S. Congressman Brad Carson as he joins Cliff Hudson and Craig Miller on Bricks and Clicks for a timely conversation about artificial intelligence, business leadership, regulation, and the future of work. Brad is the president of Americans for Responsible Innovation, a bipartisan organization focused on AI policy and reasonable guardrails around emerging technology. In this episode, he explains why AI regulation doesn’t have to slow innovation, how smart guardrails can build consumer confidence, and why the public backlash against AI is becoming impossible for business leaders to ignore. Cliff, Craig, and Brad discuss what companies can learn from past regulatory models like the FAA, FDA, Federal Reserve, and nuclear oversight. They also explore how CEOs should think about AI inside their organizations, why AI strategy can’t be handed off to “the tech guy,” and how businesses can balance automation with the human experiences customers still value. Brad also breaks down the workforce implications of AI, including which jobs may change, why implementation is the real choke point, and how companies that adopt AI early may gain a major competitive advantage.This conversation is essential for CEOs, founders, executives, board members, policymakers, and business leaders trying to understand how AI will reshape organizations over the next five years. Chapters 00:00 Welcome to Bricks and Clicks 00:53 Introducing Brad Carson 01:10 What Is Americans for Responsible Innovation? 02:49 The AI Policy Landscape in Washington 04:40 Can Regulation Help AI Adoption? 06:28 Where the AI Debate Got Off Track 08:15 AI, Populism, and the New Gilded Age 10:56 Why AI Regulation Is Becoming Bipartisan 12:32 Lessons from Past Technology Shifts 13:12 What AI Can Learn from the FAA, FDA, and Nuclear Regulation 16:49 What the Public Misunderstands About AI 17:30 Data Centers, Energy, and AI’s Environmental Debate 19:37 How Businesses Are Underestimating AI 21:22 How AI Helps Small Businesses Compete 22:46 Where CEOs Should Begin with AI 24:36 Why AI Strategy Has to Start at the Top 25:56 Rethinking the Operating Model 28:36 Reshaping vs. Replacing Jobs 31:49 The Implementation Gap 33:18 What Will Separate AI Winners from Losers 34:30 Robotics, Automation, and Customer Experience 36:25 What Should Businesses Automate? 38:23 Where to Learn More About ARI

  2. 12/02/2025

    A Universal Playbook for Brand-Building in the 21st Century

    Former Sonic CEO Cliff Hudson and tech executive Craig Miller (ex-CIO, Planet Fitness & Sonic) distills five critical takeaways from their series on integrating technology with brand strategy. They argue that genuine customer value creation – driving top-line growth and operator profit – is non-negotiable in the 21st century. Drawing on Sonic’s transformation (from $1B to $5.5B+ in sales fueled by innovations like mobile order/pay), they reveal why technology must be woven into the customer experience, not bolted on. The duo tackles the universal challenge of "messy middles" in complex implementations and emphasizes that their strategic framework – starting with the customer, not the tech – applies across industries. Miller also demystifies AI ("augmented intelligence"), linking it to predictive tools they pioneered at Sonic. Essential listening for leaders navigating digital transformation.

  3. 11/18/2025

    The Messy Middles: Navigating the Organizational Conflict of Digital Transformation

    When legacy brands pivot to digital, the path is rarely linear. In this candid discussion, Sonic Drive-In’s former CEO Cliff Hudson and executives Craig Miller and Eddie Saroch dissect the turbulent rollout of their 21st-century "Integrated Customer Engagement" (ICE) strategy—a web of interdependent tech initiatives from POS systems to mobile apps and data-driven marketing. Hudson reveals how Sonic’s 20th-century "parallel initiatives" model collided with the complexity of integrated systems, triggering what Harvard’s Professor Cantor calls the "messy middle": stakeholder misalignment, operational friction, and fading buy-in. Miller unpacks the ICE framework—Sonic’s "21st-century ice"—while Saroch details the gritty franchisee negotiations required to centralize media spending and deploy foundational tech. Key takeaways: Why digital overhauls demand unprecedented collaboration, how to sell long-term ROI to skeptical operators, and why acknowledging organizational conflict isn’t failure—it’s strategy. A masterclass in scaling change when every piece depends on the next.

  4. 11/04/2025

    New World, New Challenges, New Opportunities: Rewiring Legacy for the Digital Era

    Sonic Drive-In’s former CEO Cliff Hudson and tech strategist Craig Miller reveal how they defied restaurant industry norms to build a future-proof digital platform years before COVID-19. Joined by ThoughtWorks leaders Brandon Byars and Ryan Murray, they unpack Sonic’s gamble: upgrading legacy systems leveraging emerging technologies, and integrating all data sources to create seamless customer experiences. Learn why prioritizing APIs over point solutions, betting early on mobile ordering (“First in Line Every Time"), and overhauling operating models positioned Sonic to thrive when rivals scrambled. A masterclass in transforming brick-and-mortar DNA into digital agility—proving that foresight beats reaction every time.

  5. 10/21/2025

    Retooling the Enterprise, Taking it to Scale: Navigating the Hazards of Large-Scale Execution

    Former Sonic Drive-In CEO Cliff Hudson and cohost Craig Miller get together with key architects John Budd and Christina Vaughan to dissect one of retail’s most ambitious transformations: retrofitting 3,500 drive-ins with integrated POS, digital menu boards, and customer tech following the Great Recession. They reveal how the team navigated franchisee skepticism, change management, overnight installations (including a literal dumpster fire), and the perilous trade-offs of scaling complex systems across a fragmented network. Discover why "bad news doesn’t get better with time" became their mantra, how franchisee trust turned skeptics into allies, and why prioritizing progress over perfection was non-negotiable. Plus: how these crisis-tested strategies later shaped Oklahoma’s COVID-19 vaccine rollout. A masterclass in operational brinkmanship—when betting the company meant converting at least 22 stores a week without shutting down the brand.

  6. 10/07/2025

    The Medium is the Modus Operandi: Sonic Drive-In’s Media Revolution

    How a fast-food giant rewrote its playbook for the digital media era. Former Sonic CEO Cliff Hudson and co-host Craig Miller reunites with media strategist Rob Jayson (USIM) to dissect Sonic’s landmark 2012 media pivot. Facing a franchise crisis in untapped markets, they shifted most ad dollars from local coops to a controversial national fund—overcoming franchisee resistance that unleashed a run of increased national media and record sales growth. Rob reveals how data-driven GRP reallocation turbocharged brand awareness in developing regions and set the stage for modern hyper-targeting. Now, they explore today’s fragmented landscape: the collapse of traditional TV, the rise of identity graphs, and why owning your CRM is the ultimate hedge against soaring ad costs. A masterclass in transforming media scarcity into competitive advantage.

  7. 09/23/2025

    The Digital Plumbing: How Sonic’s Technology Overhaul Turbocharged Momentum

    When outdated tech throttles growth, what’s the fix? For Sonic Drive-In franchise giant DL Rogers Group – operating 269+ stores – the answer was ripping out legacy systems and installing "new digital plumbing." Host Cliff Hudson and former Sonic tech chief Craig Miller dissect the transformation with James Junkin, whose franchise group pioneered Sonic’s ice cream revolution. Junkin reveals how overhauling point-of-sale systems slashed food costs daily, unlocked shift-level analytics, and drove 20%+ sales through a frictionless mobile app – even among skeptics. Learn why early collaboration with franchisees was non-negotiable, how credit card readers became a "game changer," and why antiquated vendors lost ground. For any brick-and-mortar chain navigating technical debt, this is the playbook.

  8. 09/09/2025

    Innovation Is Not A Luxury: Rewriting the QSR Playbook

    Fast-food legend Robert Rosenberg — architect of Dunkin’s global expansion — joins Sonic’s Cliff Hudson and tech leader Craig Miller to dissect the unbreakable link between innovation, convenience, and survival in quick-service restaurants. Rosenberg reveals how Dunkin’ turned doughnut scraps into the billion-dollar Munchkin phenomenon during the 1970s oil crisis, while Domino’s boardroom bets on digital ordering catapulted it from stagnation to 80% online sales dominance. Hudson reflects on Sonic’s early "pay-at-your-stall" tech gamble inspired by gas pumps, proving that incremental customer-centric shifts — not just flashy tech — build lasting brands. The trio argues why convenience now trumps even product quality, and why franchises that ignore the "techno-oval" risk obsolescence.

  9. 08/26/2025

    Fortune Favors the Prepared: Sonic’s Billion-Dollar Timing

    Former CEO Cliff Hudson and franchisee Buddy McClain unpack Sonic’s 20-year tech evolution—from skeptics to industry leaders. They reveal how early credit card readers boosted tickets by 40%, why legacy POS systems nearly crippled growth, and how integrating a proprietary mobile app unlocked a competitive advantage for the brand. The payoff? When COVID hit, Sonic’s pre-pandemic mobile investment turned Sonic’s drive-ins into profit engines, with app sales hitting 40% in some markets. Miller and McClain detail the operational drama, billion-dollar timing, and why "fortune favors the prepared." A masterclass in brick-and-mortar digital transformation.

  10. 08/12/2025

    Sonic Accelerates Growth in the Digital Age: $1B (1997) to $5.8B (2021)

    Former Sonic CEO Cliff Hudson and tech architect Craig Miller reveal how a digital transformation—sparked by Hudson’s 2004 'techno-oval' customer-engagement vision propelled the drive-in chain to $5.8B. They detail overcoming legacy 'tech debt,' leveraging Sonic’s unique 25-stall drive-in model to dominate app-based convenience and scaling integrated POS/mobile systems across 3,600 stores. Despite post-acquisition sales dips, their tech stack delivered over a 20% pandemic surge, proving brick-and-mortar resilience through operational reinvention—a universal playbook for legacy brands battling digital disruption and ever-changing market conditions.

  • 10 Episodes

About

What does it really take to lead a legacy brand into the digital era—and keep it thriving in the era of AI? Why do some companies succeed, and others don't? Bricks and Clicks is a masterclass in modern business strategy, discplined execution, and transformational growth. Hosted by Cliff Hudson, former CEO of Sonic Drive-In, and Craig Miller, veteran strategist and technology leader, this podcast goes inside the C-suite to explore how traditional businesses can evolve, innovate, and lead in a fast-changing, AI-driven world. Each episode features actionable, in-depth discussions with visionary executives, digital pioneers, and brand builders who are redefining what it means to serve customers in the age of disruption. From transformational leadership in legacy companies to digital strategy, operational reinvention, and customer-centric innovation in the era of AI, Bricks and Clicks offers candid, practical conversations packed with takeaways you can apply to your own business. Whether you're in the boardroom, a member of the C-suite, part of the front-line leadership, or building a business from the ground up, join Cliff and Craig as they talk with the minds shaping the future of business—where physical and digital meet, and transformation becomes reality. Bricks and Clicks is a production of Forbes Books.

Information

  • Creator
    Cliff Hudson and Craig Miller
  • Years Active
    2025 - 2026
  • Episodes
    10
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © Forbes Books
  • Show Website
    Bricks and Clicks